madkins007

Gardener- Welcome! Getting answers here is pretty much like asking them at Roundtable or any other mixed group setting. Some take a very hard-line 'if you follwed the program right you would not have questions' stance, others take a 'whatever works for you' stance, and most take it somewhere in between. A LOT of questions about requirments get posted from people who are... well, basically looking for shortcuts or easy answers OR people who are working in units that may be following their 'own version' of the BSA program. In this case, for example, there is a contingent that feels that merit badges should not really be taught in regular meetings or primarily by unit leaders. (I happen to agree with this group.) Other people feel perfectly comfortable with making merit badges more accessible for the Scouts. It is all part of some of the on-going debates here! Being a BSA volunteer CAN be kind of tough, and there is a lot of confliciting opinions running around out here/in here, but believe me when I say that for the most part, no one is trying to pick on a new guy or anything like that!

Considering that, according the national numbers themselves, there are almost TWICE as many Cub Scouts in the US then there are Boy Scouts AND Venture COMBINED, I think asking if Cubs are good for Boy Scouts is rather backwards. Obviously, the Cub Scout program is thriving and to even vaguely HINT that it is a key reason for the drop in Boy Scout numbers sounds sorta sour grapes-ish to me. Sure, Cub Scouts has some problems and could probably do more to hold onto members better, but suggesting that boys don't cross over because Cub leaders spoiled them or 'did it all already' just does not add up.

This is from the perspective of an ex-Cub leader and ex-Scoutmaster... You've got a couple of conflicting demands- the Scout leaders want to show off their unit, while the Cubs are looking for a solid program, not a showcase night. I think I would try something along these lines: Pre-opening- Greet parents and Webelos. Give each family an informational packet (roster, calendar, 'FAQ's'). Invite parents over for coffee/tea and to seperate them from the youth a little. Have some sort of game going on that Webelos can reasonably join- I admit nothing leaps to mind, though! Opening- just a nice, sharp opening ceremony. After the opening, seperate the parents. Give themn a tour of the next activities, troop facilities, etc. Give them a chance to sit and ask questions, see photos, discuss gear lists, etc. Aim to rejoin the group so the parents can watch the game. Break-out groups- invite the Webelos to join in the New Scout Patrol's break-out session, or another group where there is some stuff going on that is hands-on and would interest the Webelos. Here is their first chance to scope out the unit at work. Patrol corners- have a junior leader or two take the Webelos aside and show them photos and examploes of the stuff the troop does- summer camp, high adventure, service projects, etc. Have a Q&A session. Game- choose a game that the Webelos can join in reasonably fairly, either as a team or distributed on other teams. Closing- sharp ceremony, announcements, thank yous to the visitors Cracker barrel- as Scouts are cleaning up, invite Cubs aside for a small snack and a chance to talk to the adult and junior leaders along with their parents.

Bob White asked "What do you think is a Cub Scout's greatest priority in deciding to continue into Boy Scouts, and who is responsible for that element?" I think the Cub is looking to have fun- hopefully, to continue having the same kind of fun he had in his pack but on a different level. Sure, he wants to meet new people, learn new things, and hopefully even go camping, but fun is his top interest. I think there are two groups of people most responsible for this element- his pack leadership- in helping him to have good, solid, positive memories about Scouting; and the new troop's visible leadership in making him feel welcome and able to start having fun right away. I was dismayed how in a troop I was with took new Scouts and tossed them in a New Scout Patrol, limited their interaction with the other Scouts, and set them right to what amounted to Tenderfoot classes. Things got better when we changed the way we did the NSP, but our initial attrition rate was pretty sad. Besides the leadership mentioned, the parents also play a key role. They either support or do not support the decision to move on, and where to. While a Scout may really like one troop or another, the parents will often functionally force or persuade him to join one THEY like. I know I did this. I really liked three troops nearby, and pretty much limited his access to other units. I also tried to get him in a troop other than the one he joined, which was my 2nd or 3rd choice. In hindsight, I am not proud of having done this. I can certainly claim that I was trying to be practical, but like many parents, I did not really give him free open choice.

Part III These would have to happen on a National level, so I doubt it'll happen tomorrow! To go from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts, in a very real way you quit one program to join the other. It is not a leaky pipeline- it is a pipe pouring water into another across a small but real gap. Closing that gap would be one of my top priorities. It would probably involve something like a 'one time mebership to the BSA' application, with semi-annual information update forms. When you get to the new troop, you just update the info at National and in the troop's files without actually re-registering. Also, I would tweak some of the requirements between the CS ranks to remove as much of the redundancy (or potential for redundancy) as possible. Maybe replace the electives with more of a CS merit badge type program. Maybe eliminate the 'all second graders earn Bear' bit and make it more merit based like it used to be. I would strongly consider, even though it is almost a sacred cow, totally overhauling Webelos. It has never seemed to work quite right- being one of the most often tweaked of all Scouting programs. (Oh, and I do know the history behind Webelos, the electives, the 'age-based rank' and so on. I even know that in the early Cub Scout program, the rank was called the 'bronze rank (Wolf, Bear, or Lion)' at first. When you earned the gold arrow point, it was the 'gold rank', and the silver elective made it the 'silver rank'. I also know that in a lot of Scouting, silver is higher than gold because at a key point in Scout history, silver WAS more valuable than gold! I say this so people will not point out the historic basis to many of these points I would change.) OK, ok... I'm done.

Part II Another thing I saw locally was a rather blase' attitude on the part of many Boy Scout leaders about recruitment- they generally took a pretty passive 'if we have a troop, they will come' attitude. They rarely spoke to us Cub leaders at Roundtable, they rarely contacted us about visiting (in either direction), etc.- if any inter-unit thing happened, the packs usually initiated it. I always wanted to do a little speech at the BS roundtable, with a Bear or Webelos Cub Scout in blue beside me. "About this time of year, all of you start looking for these guys to come through your doors and join your troops. My question to you is why? "You see, I've been his Cubmaster or Den Leader now for four and a half years. I've grown up with this Cub. We've laughed together, sung together, and even bled together (dang birdhouses!) "I know this Cub. He is a great boy with the potential to be a great man, and I want him to keep on this road of character development- but I also want him to have fun and learn new stuff. "I know that statistically, there is only about a 50% chance he will stay in your troop for more than a year, and that saddens me deeply. I know it is not all your fault and some of it is even my fault, but I still want to see him overcome these odds. "Now, let's get down to the nitty gritty. not only do you want this boy- you NEED him, and all of his den mates. You know as well as I do that you have almost no real chance of recruiting boys off the street, so Cub Scouts are your main source of new blood, new parents, and vitually life itself! "How do you demostrate to me, to his den leader, to his parents, and even to HIM that you care about him at all? Have any of you visited the packs nearby you? Tried to host an interunit activity with a pack with no sister troop? Offered them den chiefs before they asked? Offered us a color guard for a special ceremony or some other way to get your Scouts and unit number seen in our meetings? "For whatever reason, the expectation is that our already over-worked Webelos Den Leader will gather a list of local troops, meeting times, and contact people, THEN make the needed calls and other steps- it hardly seems like we are even meeting each other half-way- yet at this point, you need the graduating Webelos and we gain nothing specifically by placing him in a troop. Why then do we feel like we are doing all of the work? "Troop visits you say? You know- I've seen troops do GREAT Webelos Visitation Days, then have weak programs. Other units put on terrible visiting days and have wonderful programs. I've heard tale of one troop where while the parents were out of the room watching a video, the visiting Webelos were being teased and even a little abused in an unfair game [note- true story!]. These visits are nice, but if you really loved this Cub Scout as much as I do, I think you could find a way to do a little more. "Just as one example- a quick note to all nearby Webelos Dens offering help, inviting them to ANY meeting they wish (calender enclosed), etc. would cost you just a few bucks, but it is far and away more than what most of the units are doing. I promise you- this Cub Scout is worth at least much effort."

I personally think that most of the W2BS (Webelos to Boy Scout- I may patent that abbreviation!) failure starts in the Bear year. Cub Scouts has a few programming weaknesses that I think contribute to the burn-out rate: 1.) The 'bird house problem'. The is what happens when the Tiger Den Leader has the den make a bird house or bird feeder- probably from a kit or mild carton. The Wolf DL has his/her den make bird feeders, figuring to knock off a couple of different requirements and maybe an elective or two. The Bear leader has her/his Cubs build a bird feeder- possibly from raw materials. Finally, in Webelos, the WDL has the Webs build... well- it is a fairly easy project, and has a lot of good tie-ins to several requirements! Now- to the DLs, these were seperate projects- nothing alike at all! To the Cubs- it is another crafty thing gathering dust on some shelf at home. After all, no one ever explained how or wher to put it, what kind of bird it was going to attract, what to restock the feeder with, how to feed and water birds in the winter, etc. 2.) The 'Den Leader for life' issue- Not always by any means, but often, some poor parent volunteers to help early in her/his life and ends up being their child's den leader for most of the time they are in Scouting. The child, and most of his den mates are a bit tired of the same-old same-old that is amplified by the same faces and same ideas in leadership. 3.) The 'Everybody's Special' issue- in 'The Incredibles', the mom tells her super-fast son that 'everybody's special'. He replies, sullenly, 'that's just another way of saying no body is.' Too often, I think, we work too hard to make sure that everyone in the den or pack is treated exactly alike- everybody gets the same sized trophy for Pinewood, everyone gets most advancement at the about same time (usually with wildly different levels of participation), etc. Personally, I believe that Cub Scouting should be a safe haven from crushing competition and destroyed egos... but I also think that the effort to keep EVERYONE a 'winner' becomes pretty obvious and almost demeaning by the time the Cubs hit Bear or early Webelos. I think we need to get the 'do your best' spirit back in, and a Scout is a 'winner' to the extent they did indeed do their best. 4.) The 'Den Mother' mentality (as opposed to the 'Den LEADER' mentality!) The 'Den Mother' does lots of cutsey little crafts, serves little home-made snacks and lemonade, looks suspiciously like June Cleaver, and thinks the blue uniforms are just the CUTEST little things! You sometimes see echos of the 'Den Mother' even in male Den Leaders and Cubmasters- and you can watch the Bears and Webelos especially wince at it. Sometimes the difference between hokey, fun, meaningful, and pathetic is slim. In one of our old pack ceremonies, the CM dressed up as a chief- in a dollar store headress and everything. The younger Scouts thought it was pretty cool. The older guys rolled their eyes. Now- if we had put a bit more into the production values- better script, better costuming, a dash of lighting, etc. I think the older Scouts would have been on the edge of their seats, but we played it 'cute' and lost something with the older Scouts. 5.) Camping focus- this is an important point, I think. Cubs spend 4.5 years focusing on crafts, the community, and other such things. To expect that 100% of them will somehow magically decide to love the outdoors during Webelos or the transition is simply not realistic. I know this point does not cover all losses, but I think it needs to be remembered that SOME of the boys just are not excited by the whole tan shirt lifestyle.

On the other hand... being a Cub leader at heart... I admit I sometimes wonder if Boy Scouts is a good place for all of our Cubs! Sometimes, just sometimes you understand... I look at ALL the Cubs registered, and wonder where they all go after they move into troops and vanish. (Of course... I guess I'd have to look at all of them that fade between Bear and 2nd Year Webs, too, I guess, if I were trying to be fair, woldn't I?)

So a 21st century B-P might base a program on... Science, discovery, and invention? (At least this would touch on computers, video games, and TV) Sports? (already been done?) Career, business, making money? Hobby exploration? Mystery, magic, Harry Potter/Lord of the Rings? Maybe Sci/Fi- Star Wars, etc.? Part of B-P's genius (or luck) was identifying a trend that made a strong core, and building on it. I've ofttimes wondered if the enthusiasm, love, and energy B-P had would have worked as well if some other tool had been the main hook, say dramatics or sailing (two of his other big loves). You know... I can sorta see a movement based on a hybrid of the old Knights of the Round Table (one inspiration for Scouting) and a touch of the Jedi Knights with a dash of the ethics of Lord of the Rings... Or one based on science and discovery, loosely structured after Lewis and CLark's 'Corps of Discovery'.

Semp- I'm trying to picture that- the Belgium waffle over a chicken... I dunno, but I think I'd rather do mine on top of the waffle... and I think I'd rather do either fruit on the waffle, or use a nice crusty bread for the chicken... but maybe they do things differently in your neck of the woods? ;-)

The response I got locally was basically 'gee, that's sad. I don't know if anybody locally went.' This is a biggish council with lots of people moving around in the main office. I'd bet someone went if it was as well represented as you described, but either I'm missing the right person to ask, or something.

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of lost people at camp (Scouts or not) could have speeded up their rescue with a.) a tiny bit of lost-proof traning (perhaps with a laminated pocket card with key personal data?), and b.) a LOUD whistle. Especially with Cubbies, I'd make the whistle a required thing to wear at camp- but not to blow unless in trouble. While the headlines touch on extreme cases, most of the lost youth are much closer and are found within a couple hours. Even in farily rugged camps, a whistle can accomplish a lot.

Just as a small aside- one of the early uses listed for the bright colored, large sized neckerchiefs used to be as signalling devices. That is a great point, however. I think the next time I am involved in working on unit T-shirts, I'll try to remember that!

I think the red/white 'streamlined' logo is a spin-off of what they used to call 'Logo One' from the early 70's, when they were also hyping the name 'Scouts USA' (or Scouts America, don't recall for sure!) I know that is not quite the answer you want- sorry!

lol- you should SEE the faces on my old Scout office buddies when I mention ScoutNet 2000 to them- some of them REALLY hate that thing! I hope it works better now!

My arguements for privately-owned property (tents, some cook gear, some other patrol gear... but not too much of the troop-level stuff) would be: 1.) Teaching responsibility. We CAN teach responsibility with communal property, but the lessons and consequences are more immediate, or more natural (I am not really sure how to phrase that) if it is your own stuff. 2.) Teaching a SUSTAINABLE love of the outdoors. It fascinates me sometimes to see how most troops camp. Our old troop was a behemoth and camped like an invasion- big old communal 'portable garage', big adult cooking area (with those fancy high-powered burners and about 6 tables), patrol boxes it took 6 strong backs to shift, numbered tents being passed out in a scene straight out of a war movie, etc. OK- this is not inherently bad... but how much of this can be carried over to family camping? Families camp much like patrols, but not like small armies. If we do this right, this Scout becomes an ambassador for camping to his friends and family, and later in life, to his new family. 3. Opportunities for creative activities- making your own shelters (like the Pyramiddle- http://www.hufsoft.com/bsa51/page0001.html, or hammock camping- http://www.shire.net/mormon/hammock.html), or many other options), scavenging up a great cookset from local thrift shops (we did this years ago as a challenge game- it was amazing the great gear they found!), etc. 4. More intelligent use of unit funds- instead of spending all the money for upkeep, upgrades, etc., use the money elsewhere (or cut your budget to accomodate the lower demand) and/or use fundraisers to help Scouts and families buy the gear.

Most protestant 'evangelical' churches teach to avoid immorality. Some teach what this means, how to make choices, and what the consequences of the choices are. Others teach lists of things not to do (no dancing, no 'R' movies, etc.) The former assumes people are somewhat intelligent, and are responsible for their own actions. The latter believes in the idea that the flock is composed of sheep needing to sheparded. The former tends to be understanding of stumbles- it is a learning process. The latter tends to be rather judgemental- you messed up even with clear guidance. In the former, the leadership is not the key player- the congregation is. In the latter, the leadership is the star. I think this vastly oversimplified analogy works well with things like using electronics responsibly. We can teach responsibility, consequences, courtesy, etc. and be willing to tolerate a wobble or two in the process, or we can teach that you just don't bring the stuff because we say so (or because it is the way it always has been, etc.)

WHOA! I don't mean it the way you may be reading it! Please forgive a little background... B-P started Scouting because he saw a natural interest in boys in an area he was well-versed in and had a deep love for- the outdoors. He mixed in his love of theatrics and boating to create an incredible youth program. The outdoors was his tool, his hook that he hung the character building part on. Get them doing something fun and cool, and teach'em some stuff along the way about being a better person. His incredible love for the outdoors, for self-reliance, and for boys was the fuel for this new machine. If Baden were doing it today, would the outdoors have been the big hook? Would kids today be reading his book on being an army scout and playing it in their backyards? What, if anything, would be the hook for the program if it were just starting today? Computers and video games is an easy answer, but how do you build an entire character building program out of that?(This message has been edited by madkins007)

I'd be willing to bet that at least part of their fear is some form of hacking or piracy. Any open-source program that can plug into the national database would certainly make me at least a little concerned for the privacy of my data there. I commend your attempt, but am not really sure why it needs to plug into ScoutNet at this point- most of us would just be happy with a good, solid program that can handle a pack, troop, or council event well.

Oops- sorry... missed that connection!

Dang- I've seem plans for making a brce, but by the time you buy the key parts, it's real close to the new tool price. If the holes are small enough, you could try fabricating a few "pump drills" (http://www.ilovewood.com/pump.htm)

Check your parents also- if any of them work for a place that sells or uses a lot of tools, ask them for advice. For example, if a dad works with a construction crew, you could EASILY build a kit with the stuff they replace as it wears out. If you hit stores for donations, I'd point out that increasingly, national chains have to jump through a lot of hoops to make a donation. Try the smaller stores instead- they usually are easier to work with.

Quick note re: the 'mythical memo' from National... One thing I learned when I worked in the council office is that every Tuesday, the Scout Exec got a THICK parcel of new memos, polices, corporate business, etc. from National. In some councils, this was carefully sorted through in various committee meetings and filtered to the ranks. In some, it was quickly looked at by the SE and filed (and from the sounds of the contents, about 80-90% of it deserves to be filed away, far from human eyes). And, of course, every possible variation in between! It is vaguely possible that some line item on some obscure memo mentioned something about caffine, and it created the root of this discussion. Not real likely, I am sure, but maybe, perhaps, just possibly...

Just out of curiosity... what is the Scouting value of a uniform look in tenting and things like patrol boxes? I agree it looks cool, but...

Perhaps this should be spun off to another thread, and if it should be, so be it- I'll take it elsewhere, but... Pop, coffee and about 1/2 of the snacks in the trading post are not particualarly good for you and sorta go against the grain of what we are trying to teach. Most of the meals are pretty OK (at least here and the camps I have been to), but I bet most of us have seen the kids walking out of the trading post with thick handfuls of giant Pixie Stix or an armload of pop. It seems to me that this goes contrary to the teachings of thrift, fitness, and good choices... although the flip side is letting them make their own choices... although the flip side of THAT is the wisdom of keeping them from temptation... etc., etc., etc. I dunno. Maybe I just watched 'Supersize Me' to recently!