madkins007

Kahuna... was that the tall rectangular patch with a shield/crest design and the motto 'Forward' under it? We had the patches in our unit (used them for our Leadership Corps patch), but I never knew much about the real purpose!

I strongly agree about the idea of a parallel program- although I wouod hope we could figure out a way to integrate it into the 'main' program so non-woodsy Scouts (and Scouters) can still fulfill the primary mission. I also agree that there is a certain degree of 'relevancy' missing in our outdoor program- a certain degree of challenge and focus. Too many units 'camp' by hauling a ton of canvas and cookgear in a trailer out to the nearest state or county park, setting up what appears to be a WWII re-enactment campsite complete with field kitchen, then run the Scouts through an alternating series of football games, 'nature' hikes ("There's a squirrel. That's a tree..."), and classes for skills like knots, firemaking, and food burning. Now- sometimes that's about all you CAN do, given the limited nearby sites you can hit while there is still sunshine after school and work on Friday. Our Scouts complained bitterly about those kinds of campouts. So... we tried to mix it up. Working with the JLC, we planned survival campouts, campouts with themes like solar cooking and tracking, trialing, and stalking, etc. By the time we got our Scouts out there, it was pretty much the WWII reinactment and food-burning classes again. We got to know the squirrels by name. This happened for many reasons- mostly sheer inertia (and just as much because of the inertia of our really big adult corps as anything else), but I am still convinced that 'camping' in the Scouts (at least in some units) needs a breath of fresh air. Next time around, I'd like to introduce some different possibilkties, like... 1.) No Repeats/Sites- unless there is a good reason, we don't go back to a campsite for at least 2 years. Get more aggressive looking for new places to try. 2.) No Repeats/Food- Hot dogs and Pop-Tarts? Sure- this time, but you cannot repeat a menu this year, so what the next time? 3.) Make it Yourself- For several campouts a year, make some item and use it- tents, bedrolls, survival kits, solar cookers, water heater units, folding gear carts, home-made mess kit, ice cream maker... 4.) 'Camp And...'- Sometimes, use the camping to achieve another (non-camping) goal, even if the goal is to go out for pizza or ice cream at that great little place down the road. Hit a sporting event or amusement park, watch an air show, etc. 5.) Thematic Campiing- survival, no utensils, castaway/shipwreck, Survivor, Red/Blue war games, nocturnal program... 6.) 'Give'em a Break'- Once in a while, let the senior Scouts camp apart from the younger guys. Have the adults cook for the youth (especially to reward them for something like a big conservation project, etc.) 'Cater' the camp- bring in boxed meals and leave the cook stuff at home. and so on. I know a lot of you are already doing some of these, and I bet your guys love at least some of them!

1. We always took the word of the parents... but I have to admit that there were a couple parents we 'talked to'. Assuming that the parent simply did not quite understand how this works, we have explained that the number of badges seems excessive, and what the purpose of the badge and self-check idea were. We had a couple parents say something along the lines of 'oh, I did not quite understand' and then resubmit a different log. Giving the parent a graceful way to save face really helps. We discussed that if the check points really WERE done, that the Scout would recall doing it (without ever saying we planned on checking). We discussed that if the requirement asked for something to be built or a log to be kept, it really ought to be available to share with the den or at a pack hobby show. We would point out that 'learning' is a part of the program- just knowing how to do something for the sake of repeating it back to get the check off did not meet the spirit of the electives. Finally, we would mention that things done for one requirement don't usually count towards another. 2. We only purchased the loops and pins that we worked on as a group. If a family worked on other items, they were absolutely welcome to purchase the recognition themselves. This was written into our policies from early on to save money and encourage den activities.

Ah, the Great Polyesterization of Scouting in the 70's. I remember it well! It cost our troop several great Scouts and leaders for one reason or another. I think a lot of the confusion over when it happened was because it was phased in over several years in bits and pieces. Some went fast, others lingered as old stock was sold. Some was well-distributed, other parts were more poorly distributed across all units. Here in the midwest, I suspect we did it on a different schedule than other areas might have- things tend to occur more slowly here.

Company line: The Official BSA uniform is clearly defined and does not include either kilts or jeans. This is the policy you signed on to uphold. My thoughts: Sounds like fun and if the youth are excited by it, and it helps you deliver a strong program... go for it. I admit that I am not sure I can really see a bunch of Scouts wearing kilts other than for specific functions, however. I CAN see you guys creating a special 'squad' of Scouts who demonstrate traditional Scottish skills, etc. That might be a lot of fun!

Ed- Then the other seat passenger BETTER be your own kid or another adult, or you are in violation of the Youth Protection Guidelines. This smacks of a local rule or 'invented guideline. Personally, it has always been my policy (in and out of Scouting) to offer the shotgun seat to a guest out of courtesy. (I don't need to worry about the airbag situation in my older vehicles!) I really cannot see that this is a violation as long as there are other people in the car. Maybe some kinds of cars offer better opportunities for clandestine acts than most I am familiar with?

Kids HAVEN'T changed? My wife, a Kindergarten teacher, has volumes of data about the changes between kids today and the kids the same age of 10, 20, 30 and 40 years ago. OK, sure, they are still carbon-based units, but other than that, kids today are significantly different than most of us were 40 years ago. They physically mature faster, are taller and heavier (even when not obese), suffer from more allergies, and present other physical differences. They live a different lifestyle than we did- as has been well described in other threads around here. They do not engage in unsupervised play, they do not have as many neighborhood friends, they don't engage in the same hobbies or are enticed by the same toys... We can go on and on. Yes, absolutely, there are MANY things they still have in common with kids from the 60's or 80's. Of course, there are still youth that are excited by a well-run Scout program- but there are also well-identified trends that indicate youth are less interested in joining groups, and in the outdoors in general.

I don't think eliminating the uniforms is THE answer to the difficulties the BSA is facing now and in the immediate future... although that seems to be the direction several other countries are going! I think the BSA's uniform stance has always been a little... odd... compared to that of most other countries. I think it is even odder when you figure that the USA is FAR more diverse in almost every way than almost any other country in the world is.

Requirement 5 reads "Make up a personal survival kit and be able to explain how each item in it is useful." You don't need ot follow any specific list. You can learn about good kits at a lot of websites, but MY kit is: On lanyard around neck or in pockets at all times: - LOUD whistle - Multi-blade pocket knife with saw blade and tweezers - Disposable lighter - Notepad and pencil - Ultra-light LED keychain flashlight - Small first-aid kit tucked in wallet - Wallet with ID and extra money In a pocket-sized waterproof metal container (mine is a Japanese sushi lunch box!) Inside of the lid is polished as a mirror, and the box is wrapped in reflective tape, and extra secured with a couple rubber bands cut from bike inner tubes. - Folded HD aluminum foil - Several wind/waterproof matches and striker - Several tabs of waxed cotton tinder - Several yards each of filiment tape, dental floss, thin wire, and hot pink flagging tape - A tool with a whistle and compass combined - A AAA flashlight - A wire saw and two finger rings - Tiny fishing kit with a few hooks, a small lure, line, sinkers - Sewing needles (to use with either floss or thin wire) - Water purification tablets and two gallon-sized Zip Lock bags - Jammed into spare corners- flint sparking tool, salt and sugar packets, hard candy/gum, and additional first-aid items. This drops into a belt pouch with: - Metal canteen cup (Actually- the cup fits over a 32oz Lexan bottle, and the pouch is home-made to hold the water bottle and cup. The other stuff sits under the cup. My sushi box slips in a side pocket.) - Space blanket - Thin nylon cord- about 50' - Small roll of duct tape - Survival reference booklet - Small first-aid kit (based on BSA personal kit refill packet!) - And whatever else I can shove in there- food bars or spare socks if hiking, handwarmers in cooler weather, etc. (This message has been edited by madkins007)

Personally, my own favorite solution would indeed be for the current shirt and neckerchief, then a dress code for pants (solid olive/dark khaki/dark green color, no pleats or hems). UNTIL we came up with a better overall design THAT INVOLVED YOUTH INPUT.

OK, so it is agreed- REAL hot dogs are a key element of True American Cusine (North Central Region) and should not be banned. So, what do we do with those weird little pinkish things kids THINK are hot dogs? Personally I think they should be outlawed on a federal level as a non-food substance!

"Social Wellness includes having positive interactions with and enjoying being with others. It is having comfort and ease during work and leisure situations and communicating feelings and needs to others. It involves developing and building close friendships and intimacy; practicing empathy and effective listening; caring for others and for the common good, and allowing others to care for you. It is recognizing the need for leisure and recreation and budgeting time for those activities." (http://www.csuchico.edu/cnts/cwc/social.html) Google 'social wellness' for far more!

I like the idea of describing the BSA as a Worldwide Brotherhood, and I often find myself wishing we followed some other more international aspects a little more closely. I also agree that the BSA is more interested in 'spirituality' than in 'religion'. Where I work, we did a 'wellness day' program that included some spirituality aspects and the definition of the term we found and used was: "Integrating our beliefs and values with our actions. A sense of purpose, direction, and awareness." I think the BSA could use a definition like this to refocus their teachings on spirituality and religious duty, AND end up not having barriers to people based on labels. A LOT of us do not really live what we believe because we have never thought about it or been challenged that way. Scouting DOES this- at least to a some extent. We try to hold boys to the 12 Laws and the Oath. Wouldn't it make more sense for us to evaluate youth and leader's spiritual growth based on that sort of standard RATHER than basing it entirely on self-applied labels- whether the label is 'Catholic', 'Buddist', or 'Atheist'? And, since at least some part of our on-going insistance on religion is because of the large number of churches that support the program, would'nt we still be keeping them pretty happy?

Interesting responses! Thanks! Let me try a revision: What if we went to something similar to B-P's old statement that all you need to be a Scout is a 'neckerchief and a stave'. What if we did sorta like the GSUSA and simplified the uniform to one or two highly identifiable items? What might we use?

Fuzzy- Get yourself a good quality all-beef Kosher dog, a decent (not cheap white bread) bun, some good yellow mustard, and a dash of celery salt. Boil or roast the dog and steam or toast the bun. Add a bit of mustard and the celery salt and try it. You may never add another condiment! If you DO add other stuff, try chopped tomatos, chopped onions, drained pickle relish, chopped pepperoncinis. Avoid ketchup (the sugar kills someother flavors). Classic Chicago dog!

I (and I bet most of us here) have heard old Scouters gather up 'round the cracker barrel and talk for hours about Scouting as if it were somehow the reason we won WWII, cured polio, and got to the moon- all just totally because of the god ol' BSA. I look at some of my old appointment book entries and see Scout-related meetings literally every other night for a few weeks at a time. As I cleaned out my closet earlier today, I pulled out no less than 8 (EIGHT!) pairs of Scout socks. Yeah. I think we sometimes take ourselves and the BSA a bit too seriously and forget that it is just supposed to be a game. I also think that sometimes we let this attittude slip to the Scouts and it helps cause them to look at Scouing a bit askew as well.

If hot dogs are outlawed, only outlaws will have hot dogs! And if we are talking the cheapo pink weiner things packed in that oily slop, they are welcome to them! BUT if you are inlcuding good old 100% beef franks, sausages, and brats in the concept- GASP!

OK- but my question is 'what ARE we?', not what do we say we are, or what others say of us. Sure- we say prayers at many events- prayers so 'neutral' that they tend to be pretty generic and inoffensive, often aimed at 'the great Scoutmaster' or 'Spirit'. I have never seen a case in which people had to repeat the prayers, either- just being there was considered sufficent. Would a religious organization treat the spirituality of its members as casually as we do? (Gern- for the record, I am a card-carrying Jesus Freak from WAY back, but I am also 100% in support of letting atheists in the BSA and returning the BSA to being a character-building youth group rather than a reglious organization).

I think we over-emphasise merit badges too much in general- Scout meetings, summer camp, workshops, etc.

"Banned Skits" because staff is tired of seeing them- ridiculous! I know it is the tradition at some camps that 'such and such' a skit is 'discouraged' because it is a moldy oldie, but that strikes me as unfair to those for whom the skit is still fresh. Besides- groaning at old jokes is part of the fun! "Banned Skits" that include outdated racial stereotypes, sexism, 'potty humor', etc.- I can see, but I think there are better mechanisms than 'banning'. "Banned Skits" because of a wasted banana? Yeesh.

I think I'd take him aside (or have another leader he respects and works well with do this) and explain the dilemma- 'We love having you around and the Scouts love you, but there are some rules and safety guidelines we HAVE to operate under. You can learn about them at training, or read the Guide to Safe Scouting and Cub Leaders Handbook to learn about them, but you've really got to get on board with us about safety. Neither of us wants the Scouts hurt, or to deal with an upset parent over something.' If your pack has an internal expectation of training (as you ought), mention that as well- along with whatever you do to encourage it (like paying for it out of the treasury). If that does not help, try to find another position that he can help with and have less interaction in risky situations.

Uniforms always generate some interesting discussions, and this one was sparked by the post on units choosing no uniforms. Uniforming as a program element was added by humans, and is not on the same level as commandments handed down from God, or laws passed by the Senate, or anything- it is a human attempt to do a good thing. But... what if it is NOT a good thing? It has been said over and over here that uniforms do not automatically make a great program or better Scouts, so... why keep them? What BAD things would happen to the BSA if it totally dropped unforms? (Other than the decrease in revenue!)

Preface- did any of you see the episode of '30 Days' with the guy living as a Muslim? Here was a typical Christian guy agreeing to live as a Muslim for a month. He had to pray, eat, dress, etc. as a Muslim to accomplish his mission. From the beginning he had qualms about praying in another language, not being sure of what they might be saying, etc. Nice guy, firm beliefs, etc. What FASCINATED me was the disconnect between this guy's professed faith and his lifestyle, in contrast to the well-integrated lifestyle of the Islamic host family and community. The guy was amazed that a batchelor party did not feature booze and wimmin. He was saddened by the lack of booze and TV, etc. The Muslims were basically living what they preached- and it was obvious that the guy pretty much was not. I think the BSA is a little like this. We say we support religion to the point of kicking out some atheists, etc. Yet... many of our leaders and Scouts are NOT religious in any way beyond some lip service- and that does not bother us as an agency. Quite a few of our leaders and older Scouts revel in off-color jokes, anti-religious lifestyles outside of Scouting, and so on- but that's ok? It seems odd to claim that religion is vital, and then do absolutely nothing to gauge how religious a member is. We do not ask them if they are religious and as long as they don't make a stink about the 'duty to God' and 'A Scout is Reverent' bits, and sign the application, that's good enough for us? We are willing to spend millions fighting to keep avowed atheists out, and ignoring the untold numbers of 'untheists' in our midst. Why isn't moral, Scout-like behavior more important to us as a movement than paying lip-service to religion is?

Hey, Merlyn- don't I know you from either the old Ask Jeeves AnswerPoint or Internet Infidels forums- your handle looks awfully familiar! If so, hi!

You know- in both our pack and troop, we had a few 'uniform optional' days where you could wear the Activity Uniforms instead of the Field Uniform. Even a few 'wear scuzzy work clothes' days. These were usually days when we planned to do things like repaint patrol boxes, clean the storage shed, work in the school or church yard, or have a picnic with games that would easily soil or damage a uniform, etc. I often noticed that these days were remarkably well-attended when they were advertised. Scouts we had not seen in ages often showed up. The pride WE may have in the uniform does not seem universally shared by the Scouts themselves. Like drocksur said "Lets face it, most high school boys would find it socially devastating to be seen at Walmart doing a fundraiser in a scout uniform". Ah, uniforms! They have been hotly debated since the 20's. In fact, I think they have been a bone of contention since B-P's day.