Mad Max

Believing in anything coming from NBC is like believing in the tooth fairy.

After having officiated over 300 EBOR's I tend to agree with Beavah, but I won't sugar-coat it. 13 is too young and 12 is ridiculous for two primary reasons. 1) The boys are usually too young and immature to truly grasp what they've accomplished, and 2) have not been involved long enough to have the Promise of Scouting delivered. An articulate boy shows me one thing, he's got really good parents who are raising a smart and well-mannered son. Congratulations to them. By far, in my experience, the best and most meaningful EBOR's are conducted for the 17-18 year old scouts. Wish I'd been keeping score over the past decade, but if I had I know I could report without question: The best EBOR's were never (yes, I said never) conducted for a 13-year old. And even though I've conducted several poor EBOR's for all ages 13-18, the worst I ever had were 13-14. On the whole, the best have been the 17-18 year olds. Had I kept score over the years I would be able to report this as a statistical fact by now. But, you'll just have to take my word for it, because I'm the one who had to suffer through the less-than-stellar EBOR's. It's the law of the farm. You cannot plant the seed today, water the heck out of it for days, and then expect it to bear fruit in a month. Likewise, the Promise of Scouting cannot be delivered, consumed, digested and then lived in such a short amount of time as for a 13-year old. Perhaps this thread needs to switch to a different topic: Type-A, Driver-Driver, Parents and other fast-track adult leaders. No shortage of fodder there. Much to be learned from wise old Beavah, young Grasshoppah Charmoc.

I've got a project proposal coming my way for a District approval. In brief, the boy wants to clean up a beach somewhere in Florida. I have yet to see his proposal, but from what I've been told, his Troop will not be involved since the Troop hails from Oklahoma. So, with the new thinking on Eagle Projects being "unit activities", how does one do a project in Florida with his unit sitting back in OK? I would like to make this work, bend as much as I can to keep this project alive. But, under the new procedures, it seems like I may have to abort the mission before it gets off the launching pad. Any thoughts from the crowd?

That District Eagle Projects coordinator needs to be corrected by someone higher up the food chain. That's just wrong. And if he can't conform, there's always the exit door. For about a decade, our troop had very few boys (parents) who wanted to Eagle at an early age. Most boys would Eagle between 16 and 18. It was understood that our troop was going to focus in delivering the promise in a very slow and purposeful way. The speed demons would be slowed down in very subtle ways while the activities that the troop did were over-the-top great, but not always advancement oriented. When we had a parent who wanted to get his/her son on the fast-track, we were very firm about how our troop was going to be run and that we'd really appreciate it if they'd get on board. We were usually successful. For the few, who just couldn't satify the ants in their pants, we were perfectly willing to give them names and phone numbers of Scoutmasters from other troops in the area who had no problem with having race horses in their program. The proof was in the results. During that decade our troop quadrupled in size from 50'ish to just under 200. And the number of Eagles produced went from around 40 from the previous decade to around 120; many of which sat for their EBOR's as 18 year olds. But we didn't hold them back just to be holding them back. We had a plan and we worked the plan. To get the most out of scouting in our Troop, it was going to take about 5 to 7 years to squeeze every ounce out of the program. We had a slow, but steady pace and we were committed to it. The boys never knew the difference. They were having too much fun to notice.

Well NJCubScouter, the only lawyers I'd really like to see suffer are the ones from the ACLU. But, that's for a different forum. It just seems that a high percentage of the changes that have happened in the past decade can easily be assumed to have come out of some legal challenges BSA has found itself in, to the point that every time I see a new change I've got to wonder. What now? Nevertheless, "advancement chairs" is referenced on page 6 of the NEW Guide to Advancement. When the Eagle Project Workbook refers to Advancement Coordinator in lieu of Chair (or chairman), it begs the question. But later on on page 13 it clears it up. They are one in the same.

Found it, in the BSA Guide to Advancement. The rascals! Sure has caused some confusion in our Troop and District for Eagle Scouts. Meritbadge.org hasn't caught up, nor usscouts.org. Typical BSA...getting cute with the language. Wonder what problems the lawyers are trying to solve with that change.

What is the difference between the Unit "Advancement Chair" and the Unit "Advancement Coordinator"? In the Eagle Scout Project Workbook there is a section where the Eagle Candidate is supposed to list the Advancement Coordinator, but then that person has no responsibility to sign for the Project, review it, or anything. How much more confusing can they make this document?

Had a SM request to have his signature removed once, after the paperwork had already been submitted to the Council Office. Like trying to un-ring a bell. Turns out the boy was fine. The problem had to do with a bunch of adults that got out of hand. Also, I try to get the Project Beneficiary to attend the EBOR. It's always nice to know that the project was well-received, and hearing it directly from the horse's mouth is always a good sign.

E92-Well, I have sat on many EBORs, officiated well over 200 of them and a handful of appeals boards. Ive never asked that question, nor has the question ever been asked, and it wont be. Its an inappropriate question, IMHO. I hope that particular question is only asked in jest, but it doesnt sound like it from this thread. Also, I vehemently oppose the notion that the burden of pass/fail on an Eagle Project be placed on the Eagle Boards shoulders. Per GTA 8.0.1.1, In most cases it (EBOR) should, instead, be a celebration of accomplishment. I realize thats what BSA has done to us with the new process, but as with many things they publish there in Irving, they contradict themselves often. Seems to me the EBOR responsibility should be limited to three basic questions with regards to the Eagle Project: 1) Did the project which was originally proposed and approved reasonably match the project that was completed? 2) Was adequate leadership performed during the execution of the project? 3) Was the beneficiary happy with the results? Barring some sort of out and out fraud, if these three basic questions can be answered with a resounding YES, then the project passes muster, and the EBOR has no authority or business trying to reject the project. Unit Activity = SM rules. Since BSA is very clear that a BOR cannot retest a candidate on anything, doesnt that make it the SMs responsibility to ensure that the requirements have been met, just like for every other rank? The SM is the last person in the food chain that can actually bring a halt to the process and retest a scout. I rely heavily on the Scoutmasters signature to attest that the boy has met all the requirements and is ready to sit for his EBOR. If, for some reason during the EBOR, the project still turns out to be a sham, Im usually not going to fault the Scout, but that Scoutmaster is going to get an earful while the Scout is out in the hallway waiting on that unanimous vote to come back. Eagle Board Members. I dont know about the rest of you, but I try to get some newbies involved in the EBOR process every chance I get. Those people who are outside of scouting that would find an EBOR one of the most profound things theyve ever witnessed, is who I like to see. Performing an EBOR as if it were some sort of inner sanctum is just wrong in my book. Ive had several individuals brought to tears from the overwhelmingness of an EBOR. I believe in promoting Boy Scouts in every way I can and I find having a few newbies in the group every month has done more good for our cause than most anything else Ive seen in recent years. Imagine a mother, whose son became an Eagle just a couple months ago being invited to come back and sit in on her sons best buddys EBOR. Further imagine how much more proud that mother will be of her own son after having witnessed first-hand what he went through just a few short weeks ago. And then imagine what an ambassador for scouting that mother will become after having been totally blown away by the experience. Also imagine that Life for Life adult who got out of scouting and never returned as an adult, who after 20-30 years gets an opportunity to participate in his first ever EBOR. And then imagine the emotions that man will have after witnessing the awesomeness of the EBOR that he never had for himself, but how proud he is of his student, his basketball player, his neighbor who just got the good news that he is now part of the Brotherhood. I don't know for sure, but I think maybe were agonizing over a bunch of stuff that, in the long run, doesnt really matter that much. There really is a bigger picture here, don't you think?

OMG Were not even talking in the same language here. AND? / conjunction? I thought the whole purpose of a conjunction was to join together. But TwoCubDad seems to think its purpose it to split into two independent thoughts. Good grief. I seriously doubt that BSA consulted with any of our college English Comp teachers prior to publishing the new literature. Dont confuse me this nonsense. Im still trying to figure out how there can be multiple meanings for the word is, Mr. President. Clearly, we have two camps here: The Hatfields, who are trying to figure out how to properly and effectively use the Final Plan as a part of an Eagle Project and The McCoys who are trying to justify avoiding it all together. Ultimately, were all going to do what we want to do anyhow. I agree with fred8033, that DAC approvers need a script in order to impress upon these Eaglets that there is more to a project than a slick 15 minute, 3 page proposal. Perhaps its unit adult leadership that needs the reminder. Perhaps CalicoPenn has not yet seen a unit that has scammed the system. It happens. But, more often than not, the unit personnel are often times new to the L2E process and are unaware of what is expected. Its the DAC which is there to hopefully keep some sense of consistency within the L2E program. Many units just flat dont know and havent taken the time to read the literature, much less think about it or heaven forbid get some training. Rather than bashing overzealous DACs, could we not just assume that their purpose is to ensure that the units and their boys raise the bar just a little bit off the ground at least? The bar gets so dirty laying there in the dirt. And after all, it IS for the Eagle Rank. I find it interesting however, that CalicoPenn is so quick to dismiss Project Management, when his 15 minute/3 page proposal was 90% Project Management. You might try reading some of Stephen Coveys books. You lead people. You manage things. Sorry, Ive never met a 4x4 or post hole digger that were capable of being lead into a finished project. But, seen costs managed, Ive seen time managed, etc. A good leader knows the difference and these boys deserve the opportunity to have a little taste of it. Perhaps we could skip the splitting of hairs between Leadership and Project Management. Its all semantics. The Final Plan is the scouts management TOOL to help get organized, get his thoughts in order and get beyond the 15 minute Proposal and on to the finished Project. BSA had a reason for including it in the workbook and in spite of The McCoys noble attempt to avoid it, I think BSA actually intended for it to be used. Besides, it simplifies for all of us the plethora of spread sheets and lists and other ideas on how to document those things that need to be managed; tools, materials, supplies, time, money, etc. Sure saved me a lot of time explaining how and why to do a spreadsheet. With regards to units overstepping their bounds with controlling when and where Eagle Projects may be done: I believe it to be more of a coordination thing. Ive seen boys who tried to do their projects on the same weekend as a Troop campout and by doing so tried to seduce much of our senior boy leadership away from the campout to work on their Eagle Projects. Actions like that can create a big problem for any troop.

Fred8033 wrote: Only in terms of following BSA policies, procedures and Guide To Safe Scouting. Not in terms of coordination and planning. Fred8033 wrote: There's no change in how troops work with eagle projects. It's the candidates project. It's only part of the troop program from the view of policies, procedures, G2SS, etc. True...maybe. Depends on how troops have been behaving in the past I suppose. Our Council now requires a Tour Plan for any troop activity that takes them off of the property of where the unit normally meets. (Usually the chartering organizations building.) That wasn't required two years ago. Many of us believe this requirement is a bit excessive, but it is what it is. So, with Tour Plan in hand, Eagle Projects take on a higher level of expectation and responsibility on the units to perform in accordance with all the BSA policies, procedures, etc. no different than a weekend campout. One only needs to read through a standard BSA Tour Plan to see that the Unit will be held accountable for everything that goes on during an Eagle Project. If every candidate used the BSA Tour Plan (whether required or not) as a guide to making sure he had the proper support from his unit, all the unit responsibilities would be covered. Probably not a bad approach whether required or not.

Fred8033: I got no pushback from the Scouters attending the Roundtable. They were all on board for making sure the boys did the final plan to the Units satisfaction. i.e. Cover to cover. They understood that it was no longer the Districts responsibility to police the paperwork, it was theirs. All seemed to agree that the best way to prove that the planning was done properly, was to do your best and complete the final plan with everything that applies to their specific project. Sorry for not being more clear. Ill have to see how it will all shake out when I get to see the results prior to their Eagle BORs. As far as when a unit will accept a proposal, it will still be up to the unit. As for my own unit, we are working on that, but if the last three boys are any indication, they showed us their proposals which included as much of the final plan paperwork as they could already commit to. Their projects and their plans were very thorough and they had no problem showing us that they knew what they were doing via the paperwork. They will no doubt get through the District review with flying colors. Schiff: I seem to remember reading something about Eagle Projects starting in 1965. Not positive, because I have no Eagle Applications from 1964 or 1966. However, I know it existed in 1965, because Ive still got mine and its there, albeit nothing like it is today. Beavah: Point well taken. The Tour Plan covers much of what you pointed out. Our Council is requiring a Tour Plan for every Eagle Project, with very few exceptions. Seems like a very good way to get the unit involved. Fred8033/twocubdad: Recently did an EBOR where the Eagle Project was done old style. Two deep leadership consisted of Mom and the property maintenance guy (representing the beneficiary?), who showed his face only once during the project. (Strike one.) The project was next to a pond and some of the work required helpers getting wet. No lifeguard or safe swim defense observed. (Strike two.) Project was fabulous, leadership great, paperwork great, etc. (Home run.) No wonder BSA wants these things to become Unit events. You shoulda seen the look on the adult faces sitting around that BOR when I started quizzing the boy about two deep leadership and safe swim defense. This new program is waking some people up to their own responsibilities for these boys.

Thank you eisely and twocubdad for your comments. You make my point for me much better than I could myself. We had a lively discussion last week at our Roundtable and I believe it was pretty much unanimous that the best way to grease the skids for Eagle Project paperwork, is to do it just like the book presents it, cover to cover. They all accepted the fact that these projects are now Unit Activities subject to the GTA and GTSS, Tour Plans, Fundraising Applications and yes, even the Workbook. Not only will the boys be judged at their EBOR, but the Unit itself will be judged, and nobody wants to be the first Unit to have their Eagle Candidate drop-kicked back into the fray for more work on their project, for lack of a Final Plan. I got no pushback at all on this topic at all. And in the process, I think Ive come up with a work-around for all this Final Plan (and lack thereof) nonsense that will hopefully help prevent the embarrassment of an Eagle Candidate failing his EBOR for lack of planning and development, etc. Our Council Advancement Committee meeting is soon and we will no doubt have a lot to chew on.

AvidSM: Good luck with that. Your very loose interpretation of the guidelines would not fly in my District and many of your boys would find their trail to Eagle passing through the appeal process in order to get to the summit. There is nothing more clear than what is written on page 3 of the Project Workbook. Only the Official Workbook May Be Used. I really dont see how the word only can be so misinterpreted. Although, we did have a President once who had to explain that there were different meanings to the word is. Your Unit, Districts and Council will all have to hammer this out amongst yourselves. I know this will be a hot topic on our own Council Adv. Comm. agenda later on this month, but iPhones and iPads wont be part of the discussion. Maybe you should run over to twocubdad's Council and see what a real quagmire looks like. Twocub's Council would have an iPhone feast.

2cub: Man I feel sorry for you and your boys. Based upon what you're saying, I'd recommend you scrap your entire Council. That's just not right. One thing that has come out of this change in my council in the past couple of months I've learning more and more about how each of our own districts behave with the L2E stuff. Let me tell you, I'm not quite as pleased with them as I once was. Several of these issues will be addressed at our next Council Advancement Committee meeting and I don't think it's going to be pretty. I'll be wearing my flack jacket. LOL Should be interesting, as we have Dist. Adv. Chairs with years of service (crusty old farts) and some who are newbies (still don't have a clue). With a little over 10 years of my own mistakes under my belt, I figure I'm in a good position to be of some help to the newbies but also know/see when it's time to hang it up. Sounds like you've got some adults that need to retire or get a promotion that gets them away from the Eagle Project responsibilities. But as for you, if you're not on the Council Adv. Committee, you need to just start showing up. They need you. Needless to say, I think it's going to be a very interesting year. Good luck.