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Has anyone conducted the new Troop Leader Training (34306A) in their unit? How did it go? This new training program for youth leaders in a troop consists of three one hour modules: 1-Introduction to Leadership, 2-How to Do Your Job, 3-What is Expected of You. It replaces the Scoutmasters Junior Leader Training Kit. I recently conducted this training with my SPL and seven scouts, two of which were patrol leaders. It took about four hours due to taking breaks in between the modules. During some of the breaks, we played some of the games from the old training course. I thought that this new training went well. It seems to be focused on what the boys need to know to run their patrols and the troop as a whole. It prompted a lot of good discussion with the boys about program changes they would like to see and what they need from the adult leaders. The olders boys were glad to hear that they got rid of the video from the old course. The younger boys got a little restless by the fourth hour, but by that time we were into the Scoutmaster's conferences and the rest played a game. I used powerpoint slides to outline the sections of each module and to help prompt the discussions with questions. These slides took some time to prepare, but were worth it due to the structure they provided. The actual training booklet gives only a very brief sketch of the modules and their sections. I provided each boy with a handout of the slides and copies of chapters 3 and 4 of the Scoutmaster's Handbook. And, at the conclusion of the training, they all got their "trained" patch and the patrol leaders got copies of their handbooks.

Lisabob's story of the boy who is forced to wear a wet uniform and nearly quitting because of it is a case in point. You can achieve 100% uniform compliance, but you pay a price for it. The leader who forced that boy to wear a wet uniform is not fit to be called a Scouter. I wore a uniform while working at a Burger King back in the late 70's - it had about the same fit.

I agree with evmori. If you choose to wear the uniform, it should be done properly. The very meaning of the word "uniform" implies sameness. Every scout should be aware of what a "full" uniform is and where to put all the patches. Wearing says, "I'm a boy scout". I believe in positive reinforcement when it comes to encouraging the boys to wear their uniforms. This gets about 80% compliance on average. How these other troops get 100%, I have no idea. Should boys with no or improper uniforming be sent home? Do they call up their moms and have them bring the missing pieces? What downside should there be to improper uniforming? I can't see diciplining a boy because of it. I think that some boys are just not responsible enough to keep track of where it is, keep it clean and remember to wear it. Plus the fact that some boys just don't like wearing it.

Ashamed to be a scout? The're ashamed to wear something 25 years out of date! Apart from the change in the shorts, the uniform hasn't changed since Oscar de la Renta redesigned it in 1981. Would you wear a business suit to an important meeting that you bought in 1981? The boys hate the thing. Anyone caught wearing shorts hemmed above the knee is considered gay according to them. They only wear it because we insist. If they only bothered to read the Scoutmaster's Handbook, they would find the page that says it's not needed to be a scout. And, if push came to shove, there is no troop committee, uniformed leader or chartering organization that could deny him membership or advancement due to the lack of it. Show me OFFICIAL BSA POLICY that says otherwise. And, you can't use Scout Spirit to keep him back (the most abused and misquoted requirement I know). It's "living the scout oath and scout law IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE" - OUTSIDE of troop activities - so, the uniform can't be an issue. It's time that the BSA redesign the uniform to more modern aesthetics - and not accept any free offers.

MollieDuke - you say that your boys don't have any leadership skills. How do you know this??? I can't believe there isn't a single boy in your unit that doesn't have any natural leadership talent. It's easy to tell if boy has no knot or lashing skills - you ask him to tie a certain knot and he can't. But, how do you know your boys have no leadership skills? Have you ever asked them to lead? And, if so, what did you do when they failed? Did you give them advice and council or did you take over for them then and there? What can they learn by this? And, why is it YOU who decides what the boys work on first? Are you so afraid of letting the boys decide what they want to do? Given good advice and the framework of the scout oath and law, I find the boys will make the right decisions regarding troop activities. Even though some of these skills are not their favorite things to do, they know they have to learn them to advance. They know what's cool and what's not - more so than an adult. Let them decide on what, when and where. That's not putting leadership first -- it's putting THEM first.

You can never spend too much time on leadership. Especially those units that have no patrols, who's adults have taken over the cooking and bark out orders to their scouts. I see them at camporees with their large carports full of troop cooking gear. I hear them at summer camp, constantly telling their boys what to do. These adults have given up on letting their boys lead: it's too hard; the food stinks; things don't go as smoothly. These leaders have taken the easy way. And the first step down this easy path is saying to yourself, "this leadership thing is not as important as these other things". They may justify their actions by saying that the troop runs smoother, is more efficient, or has a better program without youth leaders. But, the truth is, they have turned their troop into a youth camping group that loosly follows BSA policy as they see fit. Teaching the boys all the skills they need to be a good scout is important. But you can do this AND teach leadership at the same time. It's more work. It requires more training for both you and the boys. And, you have to be patient and swallow your ego. But, if you do it, it can be very rewarding and the boys learn their skill better from each other than just the adults. There are way too many troops out there that do not let their boys lead - even with the BSA's emphasis on leadership. That is why I say you can't stress it enough.

LongHaul, I'm not saying don't teach the "scouty" stuff. How can you not teach it? They are skills needed to advance. But nowhere does the BSA say that a boy cannot be elected patrol leader because he's bad cook or he's spacially challenged. Boys are elected because they are popular, friendly, well liked, etc. I have no control over this. I certianly can't cycle them through in order for all of them to get their POR. What kind of troop does that? Each boy has their own strengths and weaknesses. As a leader, it's my job to focus on the positive and bring out the best in each boy. If a boy shown good leadership potential, why force him to be the best cook or map reader in the troop? What do I do with my newly elected patrol leaders? I don't sit down with them an review the "scouty" stuff to see if they know it. I tell them what their job is. I go over what I expect of them as leaders. I encourage them to take the formal training the BSA offers both in the troop and the council. I watch over them as leaders and offer advice and guidance as needed. I provide them a "safe place" and allow them to make their mistakes so that they learn by them. THAT'S how I teach the patrol method. All I'm saying that a good scouter should not place ALL of the emphasis on the "scouty" stuff and IGNORE the leadership development part. After all, when the boys grows up joins the workforce, which skills will serve him better? As for Wood Badge... I took the new course when it first came out and later had the honor of serving on staff. To answer your question, I havn't been in scouting long enough to have taken the old course. The knowledge of the old ways do not haunt me. So, I can't live in the past - and I certainly can't expect the boys to live in the past either.

The classroom is no place for a boy. Studies have shown that boys who are active - keeping their hands busy during lessons, are more attentive and retain more. Scouting's classroom is the outdoors. There, he meets challenges not found at home or school and learns what works and what doesn't. He learns how to cook for himself and read a map. These are important skills every scout should know, no doubt. What happends when the boys burn the pancakes or lose direction on a hike? Do we stop everything right there and review the skill until they get it right? Do we deem the campout a failure because of it? Why does he need to be in scouting to learn these things? Couldn't the boy learn cooking in Home Ecomonics? Can't he participate in the DVOA and learn to read a map? If you don't learn to cook in a home economics class you fail, because the purpose of the class is to teach you to cook. If you don't learn to cook in scouting, you haven't failed, because that's not the reason you are in scouting. The boys are in Scouting to develop character, become responsible for themselves in both mind and body, and to become responsible for the actions of others. These are qualities which make good leaders. Yes, teach the boys all the skills they need to know to advance and become a well rounded scout. But, never forget that the mechanism by which they learn these things is just a means to and end.

I would rather have a Patrol Leader who knows what his job is than one who is a good cook and an excellent map reader. I would want him to represent all the scouts in his patrol at a PLC. When the SPL makes a decision, I would like each PL to follow though with it down to the scout level. Doing the things that the majority of the boys want to do is essential to a good program and scout retention. If the SPL's decisions are not passed down to the boys, he is not really leading the troop. Program sucess, retention and developing good leaders are much more important than having a troop full of good cooks and map readers. Leadership is key in a troop. The BSA knows that and changed the focus of Wood Badge for that reason Leaders turn good ideas into reality.

Let's look at a policy that's often ignored - the one that says a boy does not need a uniform to be a boy scout. I have heard many leaders says that they do not let a boy attend a Scoutmaster's conference or Board of Review unless they are in full uniform. This is clearly against BSA policy. But, most leaders I know would think it is OK - even though you may be delaying a boy's advancement because of it. What makes this policy OK to ignore? Is it because we place more importance on the uniform at SMC's and BOR's? What leader would send a boy home from a regular meeting who is not in full uniform? The boys comply to this unofficial policy, because they listen to us as adults. They trust that what we say is true and often don't question us. They have no reason to thumb through the Scoutmaster's Handbook to confirm if we are following BSA's rules. The fact that we are given this trust and that we break it when we ignore policy makes it not OK. There is no "BSA police" to give us a ticket when we stray from the rules. Our honor, our character and our reputation should prevent us. Ignorance of policy is no excuse.

I know that due to attrition, teaching the patrol method to scouts is like painting a moving bus. But, as a Scouter, you must continue to provide the boys with leadership opportunities and stress the basics at every turn. I have heard of other units forming a "Grumps" patrol as Orennoah mentioned. The problem is you get adults acting like boys, which goes against one of the methods of the program (you lose this method with adult-fee camping also). And, you may not want or get a patrol size number of adults at each campout. Separating the patrol's cooking and camping areas at campouts certainly forces the boys to use the patrol method. But you need to do more than this. You must give every opportunity at campouts and meetings for the patrols to act independently. The more time they spend as a group, making decisions and meeting challenges, the more their PL will learn to lead and the more the scouts will learn to follow. This is one of the main reasons why we have the patrol method. The other is that the boys work much better in smaller sub-groups. At meetings, the interpatrol activity is one of the best ways to teach the patrol method. Have each patrol compete against the others in a game or contest. Try to incorporate the monthy theme into the activity. If the theme is tracking, come up with some kind of tracking contest. Have one patrol leave trail signs or clues so the another patrol can try to find it outside or within the building. Teaching the patrol method is an ongoing effort. Our Troop votes in their Patrol Leaders every six months, so Kudu's Green Bar Patrol is not viable. As soon as one Patrol Leader is trained, another might replace him! Troop Leader Training is a good opportunity for the boys to formally learn what the job of Patrol Leader is. I open this training any boy that might be interested in a leadership position, not just the leaders. This way, a newly elected leader can have had the training in advance. Most importantly, none of this works unless you let the boys make the decisions and really do the leading.

I have seen some veteran scouters quit because of their frustration with Council. These are volunteers that have donated a lot of material and hundreds of hours of their time. These people were not valued because donated material or time does not show up on the executive's performance rating. When people feel that what they do is not being seen as any value, they quit. Council can't seem to get this. They run themselves like a business - by the numbers. The executive that can't produce more scouts, more units and more money is seen as a poor performer. We are lucky because our District, for the most part, is run like a family. People are friendly to each other and we value each others opinions and efforts. We accept our Council for the way it is and do our best to work around it. When one of us gets frustrated in our dealings with Council, the others give their empathy and support.

They have had enough. You have to have an appetite for Scouting. A hunger to contribute something to it. Some people can't stand what's being served (Kudu's 86 reasons) and lose their appetite. Others get their full and leave (a son in the program). People leave for many reasons, personnal and otherwise. But, there are some who can never get enough, no matter what is being served, no matter how the menu changes. They still feel they have something to contribute and they care about the program.

We are trying to teach these boys about leadership. And, when you are pushing a scout, you are doing the leading, not them. Not all boys in the troop are going to be good leaders. Some are not mature enough and others just don't have the drive. If you push an immature boy before he is ready, you are probably doing more harm than good. If this boy is your son, you should be able to recognize this immaturity better than any one else. If the boy is not driven to advance, try pushing him a little to see if he moves forward. If he won't budge, youv'e done all you can. I agree that if the troop has a good program, advancement and merit badges should come as a matter of course. If you're a parent, and your not sure whether your son is advancing at the right pace, talk to a troop leader that's been around a while. They have seen enough boys go through the program to make a better assessment.

With new scouts, it's all about encouragment. They are full of enthusiasm and spirit. With most of them, it does not take much to get them to advance. With older scouts, I try a combination of pushing with some encouragement. I guess the pushing is more like prodding. I'll say, "Hey, how's that eagle project coming along?" or "What do you still need, Envi Sci or Family Life? The older boys know where I'm coming from. They have to want to make eagle. No one else can want it for them.

Look at the camping merit badge and what do you see? A tent! Not a cabin, not a cave, not a adarondak and not a Holiday Inn. You cannot read more into a requirement then what's actually there. Nowhere in the requirement does it mention: "cabin" or "adarondak" or any other of these things. It says sleeping outdoors with no shelter counts (under the stars) or sleeping outdoors in a tent you have pitched counts. It says nights of summer (long-term) camp also count in an outdoor tent. And, since the tents in a summer camp are already pitched when you get there, they are excluded from the "you have pitched" part of the requirement. The scoutmaster has no say in when to start counting these days and nights camping. Once he signs the blue card giving his OK for the boy to start work, it's then all up to the councelor who may or may not choose to count the previous days and nights. All the boys I know who have gotten the merit badge were allowed to count all their camping while they were a boy scout. To me, it does not make any sense otherwise. Things don't count until you fill out a form? It's BOY Scouts not GOVERNMENT WORKER Scouts!

When it comes time to work on a Merit Badge, most boys remember doing a certain activity, but sometimes they can't recall the details or the date. There are computer programs out there, like TroopMaster, that allow you to keep records of such things. We make it a habit of recording the dates and other data, like miles hiked, for each activity. That way the information is available for the boys when they need it. I don't think it's a good idea having the troop manage the blue cards for the boys. It's the boys job to fill out the initial information on the card, get approval to start the MB from his SM and then contact the approved counselor. This teaches the boy to be reponsible and helps develop his social skills. As a MBC myself, I never had any issue with accepting notes from a boy, signed by the SM that said, "Johnny scout completed requirement so-and-so on some earlier date".

A good way to learn splicing is to wrap each end of the strand with tape. Color the tape on end of each strand with the different color marker. That way you can keep track of what goes where. This also helps the strands from fraying. If you are thinking of teaching splicing, it is important that you know it backwards and forwards. (Most knots I would say do it blindfolded before you teach it, but splicing is different). Often times the boys mess up the splice and you will have to know how to fix it and get them back on track. Books and web sites are good, but it's best to learn a skill like splicing from someone who knows how to do it.

I use them as a pedometer. Last time we were at Gettysburg, I used one to get accurate milage for the two trails, Billy Yank and Johnny Reb. This information goes into the boys records for miles hiked. (BTW, the milage on the Billy Yank trail is a few more miles than what the book says) I also use them on backpacking trips. I get the endpoint coordinates off of the topomap web site and program it in. That way, I know how far we have gone and how much more we have to go.

No doubt that what the org chart says is true. And that training is key for everyone with a position in that chart. But never forget that we are dealing with PEOPLE here. I am friends with and have known our Committee Chair for years. I have been camping with him many times and have spend a lot of hours around a campfire BSing. I would know when something is bothering him even before he speaks. A troop runs a lot smoother when everyone knows each other and cares about each other thoughts and feelings. Try to avoid getting into a situation with a bunch of strangers. It's not fun and you will get burnt out quickly. Some disagreements may come up because of a lack of knowledge about how a troop should be run. The problem is turnover and that people don't have time to get trained. As the Scoutmater of my troop, I Try to nip this in the bud by stressing the basics to everyone as the situation allows. Try to stress the positive and casually point out when things are going by the book. Just like the boys, the people who know a skill should be passing it on.

As a Scoutmaster, I agree with having a special recruitment night when the Webelos visit. Why take a chance with a regular meeting that may or may not go so well? Once in a while a regular meeting bombs. Webelos and their parents would not understand this. Is this being dishonest or deceptive? I don't think so. It's just putting your best face forward. Also, we separate the parents away from the boys at this meeting and give them sales pitch. What scouting can do for your son ... why join our troop as opposed to another ... Have your Webelos and parent that can't make the special meeting show up the next week unannounced. What Scoutmaster would turn away a possible recruit?

It depends on how they word the new requirement. If it says, "While a Firt Class Scout, do the following...", then it won't count if they did it as a Scout or Tenderfoot. I hope that's not the case because I also have some boys who have met the requirement during our fall recruitment drive.

I have been lurking around this forum for years and have finally decided to pipe up. You are asking for examples of what constitutes delivering the socuting program. And, you don't want quotes from BSA publications... Well, each of us has our own point of view. And, each of us would probably come up with a different set of standards, depending on our experiences and training. Reading the replies so far, there seems to be a common thread running through it all: boy led, patrol method, outdoor program, etc. -- get enough experienced scouters together and they will eventually all come up with the same common thread. (Which, by the way, is very close to the BSA publications like the Quality Unit Award and the Unit Commissioner's Evaluation Sheet) How far can a unit wander away from these standards and still be considered boy scouts? It's hard to say. The boy's have no way of knowing that they are not getting the full program. If they are not allowed to cook, all they know is the adults are feeding them tasty meals that they don't have to clean up after. And, if there are no patrols or patrol leaders, all they know is they are not the one's telling the other boys what to do and getting flack for it. Boy Scouts that have never been a leader, never cooked their own meal, never made a decision that affected others -- have fun, go camping, get advanced, and wear the uniform just like every other scout. Does this matter to me? --- Yes and no. No, because I have my own troop to run. And there is nothing I can do about the leaders who don't agree with the standards. Yes, because they just don't get it. And, being an avid Scoutmaster, it bugs me to see adults cooking at a camporee and ordering the boys around like some want-to-be drill seargent. Why do they try to reinvent the wheel to come up with your own standards? Is it their egos? They might say it doesn't work; that they have tried boy led and patrol method with bad results. Well, try again! Never give up! If you want perfection, you are playing the wrong game.