Lucky_scouter

I believe that what Lisabob is saying is that spending the money early (education) is far cheaper than spending it later (prisons). The line here seems to be that the money is more important than the life. Teachers are given responsibilities via a little clause in the law called "in loco parentis" which loosely translated means "in place of the parent"... in other words teachers are expected to be the parents at school and act on behalf of the parents for the benefit of students including supervision. I can say that I would rather spend 29,000 per student on education and implementing programs to keep students on the right track with supportive teachers (who don't mind being "in loco parentis") than to spend one dime on a prison/prisoner. Simple economics will tell you that the small continuous deposits made early are going to earn more and cost less to get the same end product than a load of cash dropped into an investment late... not to mention the risks. I've had blind musicians ( no deaf ones yet...), kids with adhd, bd, ld, md, ms, and a bunch of other acronyms and every one of them was educable. I've had kids who were oppositional-defiant and still made progress with them albeit slow until we reached an understanding that I wasn't going to budge on behavior no matter what and they needed to know that I was on their side. I just can't agree with many of the opinions expressed in this forum. It might be that there are kids who are trying to follow the "dream" of a college education who may really want to be/do something else and that is where education should probably change course... If education is failing, it is because we seem to push everyone towards college as a measure of success. I do believe we count trade school as part of the formula but there is more to the formula than that.

Charter School= Bad idea. How is it fair to take from the kids who don't have a charter school near them? I live in rural America and no matter where you take "the kid" or "the parents" they are still the same kids and parents. The concerned parents and hard-working kids will do well nearly anywhere. Maybe in urban areas there is a larger issue with safety and so maybe those should be broken up. I remember Alfie Kohn and some other education "experts" saying that no high school should have more than 500 kids enrolled in it. I am also a public school music teacher and the combined GPA of my students is a 3.645. The kids started in music just like everyone else and in a dead heat academically. ( Again, rural USA and out of 100 kids in each class, I pull 65-70 of them.) I find instruments that they can play, get donations so they can play and bring all of them along sith steps of successes. As far as I'm concerned, I get all the "good Kids" because I tell them they are and they become what you tell them. (I am not seeking an award here.) They have all of the best and worst teachers in our district and still managed to have high GPA's. My graduating seniors have an average GPA of 26.8 (5 points above the national average) and they aren't in a charter school. I'd never stand by while our state took from the rural to give to the urban. I just wish that people would look around before they made wild guesses and suppositions about what educations does and doesn't do for kids.

There are a few things that are problematic in these areas "Public sector workers, particularly teachers, want it both ways. They want the autonomy and responsibility that goes with a professional position, yet they want the collective bargaining that goes with being a factory worker. Not that there's anything wrong with the latter, but it is different from a professional position." The problem with this line of thinking is that we are not dealing with a "product" built on an assembly line, it is our children and like it or not, the equation isn't the same. A corporation doesn't build it's product based on the purchase of variable base materials. Taxpayers pay our salaries and expect professionalism from us yet our students are the only entities not held accountable. I would wager that ALL students would have more success if they knew that they would be held accountable. "If you want to be a professional, be willing to stand or fall on your own merits, and be rewarded for the same, not based on your length of service." I know what you mean... and when are we going to be rewarded for the kids that excel? How about for the kids who could not read before I helped them? "Out here a professional takes a job and negotiates the best he or she can when starting. But typically after that, you take what they give you! (Unless you can apply leverage by threatening to quit or getting a better offer elsewhere.)" And I'll bet that you are willing to pay the increased tax burden to pay for the results of our outstanding teaching? It hasn't happened yet and it has been proven that merit pay does nothing to raise student test scores. Why? Because the students are a variable that is independent of the teacher... not that they are incapable but the kids don't come from the same sets of parents. "I'm going to get canned because an administrator doesn't like me." And...so? It's not fair, yes. Life isn't fair, get used to it. People get fired for stupid reasons all the time. Dust yourself off, get up, start over. So tell me you are not a scout leader because fairness, integrity, and honesty are what we teach. I hope that you don't treat your scouts that way. I gladly pay my association dues after taxes to have a voice against this kind of ridiculous though process.

By the way Packsaddle, thanks for the support.

SeattlePioneer: When you say often, what statistics do you quote? Is that a percentage? Currently, doctors have the right to "fire" a patient when they do not heed the advice of the doctor. We do not have the luxury of firing students nor can we shut off their life support. Parents do that before we get them. Does a patient "get better" solely because of the treatment of a doctor? Family support? What other factors are there? Patients often die or become more sick in the field of healthcare, does that mean that healthcare "often" does a lousy job of healing? Perhaps this education thing is also about the kind of parent support behind the public education... My kids are products of public education and they know that THEY are responsible for their learning and so are we. They are both exceptional students and set the "curve" in their public school classes. Perhaps the overhaul that is needed is not in education.

jrush: From the teacher standpoint, I think most of us in the profession are in it to help kids. We also have families to feed and we deserve no less consideration than any other employee both public and private. I think our issue is that we have to have some kind of protection and we seem to be the "whipping boys" for everything wrong in education. NCLB and other state-led mandates require that teachers, principals, superintendents and school boards be held accountable and for a teacher that is frustrating. The one entity that has to show progress and advancement is not held accountable and that is the student. For that matter, parents aren't held accountable either. Our only voice is a union and if that is "busted" we have no voice. More teachers leave the profession now than retire from it. How can we be trusted with children and not with a paycheck? I have 20 years in as a teacher and have had my share of run-ins with administrators which are less than professional and I'm a certified administrator myself. This matter is not as simple as a "union teacher" or a "non-union teacher" or the cost of government services rising because of a union. My wife works for our state and she hasn't seen a raise in years. There is a union but it clearly doesn't affect paychecks and if the job is cut, the union can't bring it back. Unions aren't the problem but who knows, maybe China will be happy to bring in industry when we have a workforce that is willing to work for slave wages. Maybe they will help us "fix" our educational system. Then you will have three "tracks" the upper level math and science (doctor/researcher scientist) track, the business/ skills track and then the manual labor track. Unlike our system which allows you to choose...

When my dad helped start a union, it was plain and simple: A collective voice to represent the working men and women in order to establish fair labor practices, fair wages, safety of the worker, and establish grievance procedures to protect workers from undue firing. These same unions helped establish "whistleblower" protection which all Americans enjoy. My dad is absolutely honest and stood up to help many of his fellow workers as a negotiator. There are some gross perversions of the union out there and there are those which are not. To bust them all is to take 50 years of the establishment of fair labor practices and flush them down the toilet. Perhaps a more surgical approach would be better than a chainsaw? OldGreyEagle, my dad was a founding member of the local IBEW and I'm a teacher in a state where there is no ability for teachers to bargain collectively. LisaBob, public schools in our state pay little enough that teachers qualify for free and reduced lunch depending on how many children they have. We are required to have a Master's degree which costs thousands and the cost to get the M.Ed. is more than the financial reward after receiving it. On top of that, the only protection that we have is tenure. Tenure is not a job for life, it is a guarantee of due process and we may end up losing that protection. When all the soft targets are destroyed what will they target next?