LongHaul

Actually I don't think anyone got paid. LH Except maybe the stage and camera crew(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

If you split my vote is to let the boys make the choices. I'd say don;t split into two patrols right now. Your 17 year old could remain a TG or become a JASM. Your 16 year old stays SPL and the 12 year old ASPL stays as such. They become the "Leadership Core" aka "Senior Patrol" even though "LC"is not used anymore the functions it provided can still be utilized. This leaves a patrol of 6 PL, APL and 4 scouts. What are your recruitment prospects for February March crossovers? LH

nwscouttrainer, Well Ed has tipped his hat but Merlyn remains silent. Briefly Ed and Merlyn are two men that have very beliefs and at times those beliefs are diametrically opposed to one another. Things will go along peacefully and then someone will post something which causes one or the other of these men to respond with a position the other disagrees with, strongly, completely, and repeatedly At that point any topic becomes fodder and can be drawn into the sparing. As you pointed out after a while things get "heated". They are not always like this but at times it's hard to get them to take their corners and cool down. NO offense guys LH The complete story can be found but searching from the main page.

What would an anonymous paper report gain over a Roses and Thorns or SM Conference? COULD allow for honesty in the absence of a.) retaliation outside the program, b.) offending the person being reported on PERSONALLY (R&T), c.) Eliminates the rapport the boy may NOT have with the SM. (If I am critical of Jim will the SM hold it against me when I'm in the position?) It can lead to things being said that are not correct and would not be said to a person face to face either about them or someone else. But I could lead to things being said that would not be said to a person face to face either about them or someone else that are in fact totally correct and need saying. Speaking as a SM of 13 years I think I'd get more useless info that constructive material. Just my take on the boys I've dealt with. The criticism would be about things that may be lacking but that are not correctable in the frame of the POR. "Billy is too much of a Boss". By the time you quietly try to figure out just what this is relating to, have a chance to talk with Billy about it, figure out if you want to handle this directly or use it as a chance for another youth leader to mentor the scout, give Billy a chance to correct his behavior the POR is finished and the correction never gets implemented. Billy was a Boss his whole term. Talking it out face to face, R&T gives you a chance to get to the core, get Billy's side, get the rest of the patrol or troops side, involve the senior youth leaders and the corrections if deemed appropriate start immediately. LH

click23, I'm glad I have not offended you. As far as a SM coaching an SPL that SM is there all the time to watch the effects and affects of his coaching. Just because I never played professional sports does not mean I can't tell if the plays I'm sending in are working. My problem is that when I finally admit that I need help I'm sent to a person that has less experience at coaching an SPL than I do. Using your coaching analogy a UC watching last weeks game films comes up with plays to use this week but isn't at the game. He then watches the next set of game films and repeats the process. It's real hard when your not standing on the side line when the game is being played. You can't come up and say "When we played these guys we..." No cop out here but I would never be your DC or anyones DC. I don't want the job of working within parameters I object to in the first place. I'm not advocating disbanding the Commissioner service I just wince when every time there is a problem posted someone says call the UC call the DC as if these people have some answer that isn't in the training the original person has also taken. I'm sure that there are times when they actually do have the answer. There are many things a "never actually tried to do it" Commissioner can be of help with, budgets, convincing the adult leadership that building a solid troop committee is essential to a solid self perpetuating program. Helping the SM or CC or COR or whomever convince the adults to take training. But solving problems you've never had? It's like talking to a Priest about problems in the bedroom. HMMMM maybe that wasn't a good example. LH

Nwscouttrainer, I know you agreed to an hour a week and obviously have not left after finding out that it was quite a bigger time commitment but before We try to answer your question just how much time do you have? LH

Could be wrong but the Scout does not sound like an Eagle Scout, just a boy that was looking to obtain the Eagle rank. Hopefully he has learned that in life if you are looking for the recognition with out doing the work you need to cover your.... posterior exposure. LH

What Lisabob said. Don't be swayed or deterred if you get a BIG frown from the other troops. Your responsibility first is to the youth you serve and wish to extend service to and not other units. Be ready however if "your" Webelos don;t crossover into your troop but go somewhere else. LH

I really don't think so Ed, for the allotted time that specific place was being used as a "polling place" it fell under specific guidelines and laws. The church where our troop meets is a polling place, during those hours we can't solicit for pro life, we can't display anti or pro posters for a specific cause. We can not engage in any activity that COULD be viewed as an attempt to influence voters. That being said the rule is "within 150 feet of the polling place". The "polling place" being interpreted as the actual spot at which one casts their vote. SO.. out in the parking lot and on the sidewalk in front of the church is the line of people distributing hand bills for candidates or causes. My issue with the original case you posted is that the Scout caused the Election Commission and the City embarrassment because the Scout did not follow BSA procedure. It was the Scout's actions that precipitated the reaction of the "government". We expect the government to follow the rules particularly when we are casting our votes. Intentional or not the Scout made the error and IMO should issue an apology. LH

I want to respond to click23 first. Please click23 do not take this as a personal assault it is not you it is the way you were trained IMO. You just presented a capsule of what I am trying to discuss. This may sound like semantics to many but if you believe in Freud you know that we use the words and phrases our subconscious sometimes chooses and they can be windows to a truth. Click23 opens with; >> I am a UC, for little over a year now, but I have never been a direct contact leader.<< >> What constitutes a Quality program? >>for a troop, an organized meeting ran by the boys.<< Later click23 writes >> I also look at the strength of the committee, if a PLC is being used,<< My question now is did a youth script and plan the meeting or did an adult? Is there a written plan? Does this plan cover a systematic approach to the full Scouting year? What is the yearly goal or objective for this unit? The UCs Troop Worksheet does not cover any of these things. Having a youth doing the talking instead of an adult should not be the objective. >> teaching scout skills to younger scouts by older scouts,<< Who taught the older scouts? Where is the quality control? Are these things taught the same way to each younger scout or is it left to the knowledge of a specific instructor to govern the quality, quantity, and accuracy of the instruction? Again the UCs Troop Worksheet does not cover any of these things. >> How much time does it take to tell if a program is Quality or not. Depends on the unit, so you could walk in the door and tell if they are or they are not, or it could take a few months of evaluation to see.<< This may only have been a slip in attention but incase is wasnt, I hope we realize that we may be able to spot a program that is NOT quality in nature when we walk in the door but deciding whether a given program is a quality program or not takes more than a few meeting. I know more troops that claim to be boy-led than troops that are boy-led. First impressions can be wrong, in both regards. >> Where the people that trained you direct contact leaders for any length of time?<< In response click23 goes on to list training completed. Commissioner Basics, NLE, Scoutmaster specific, Cub Leader specific, Troop Committee Challenge, Venture leader specific, Trainer Development Conference, Woodbadge. Those providing this training are said to have direct contact experience though the quality of that experience and the quality of the program it generated or enabled is unknown. Ive attended training delivered by trainers whose home units were by no stretch of the imagination quality programs. They were delivering training because; they accepted the task, they sought the position, they had attended numerous trainings themselves, or they were just in the group that decided these things. The system produces and seeks out people like click23 to fill the needed Commissioner positions. Just like developing a boy led troop developing a Commissioner service takes time and experience. Instead if taking the time to recruit people with experience and having them serve others in their field of experience, BSA attempts to fill the gaps with text book classes. Again no offense meant here click23 but the system has put you in the position where I see you as POSSIBLY being like a highly skilled surgeon that aced every class, but never held a scalpel to a live patient, being given the task of mentoring surgeons in the field. You can tell if they did it wrong and know what the right way looks like but you cant show them much hands on. You cant, as Beavah is so often heard to say, tell them what worked for you. If I come to click23 with a problem in my troop what can I expect besides the same advice I heard when I took NLE, SM Specifics, Troop Committee Challenge, and Woodbadge? This is too long already but in closing Id say John-in KC, yes it does make sense. Ill bet you got that from observation and execution and not from a training class or out of a book. LH

Personally I think the Scout, his Troop, and any Scout or Scouter involved in placing the boxes owes a public apology to the Election Commission, the voters, and the city. The Election Commission has specific rules that must be followed, have we all forgotten the 2000 election so soon? It's a matter of law not Commission permission. My polling place is at a local school, contacting my school district and obtaining permission does not change the law covering polling places and solicitation. When was the last time anyone saw any organization allowed to solicit for anything at a polling place? LH

As SM my only stipulation in taking the job was that no one smoked in front of the boys including myself. If you have to do it take it some where else. I would leave the cigarettes home when we went on campouts and two weeks for summer camp. My second year the PLC made a big deal of giving me a special present before we left for camp a carton of cigarettes with a card signed by all saying "We like you better when you smoke" Seems I wasn't a good SM in withdrawal. I quit completely right then and haven't smoked since. Cub Scouts is mainly an indoor thing. Smoking in a closed room with non smokers particularly children, in light of modern findings, is definitely NOT setting a good example. LH

Beavah, You feel the TC should set the level of expectation? According to "the book" the TC should be a behind the scenes group that facilitate program not deliver it directly. The ASM and SM don't sit on BORs because they are too close to the delivery of the program. While the BOR ensures quality I don't see why a SM or the ASMs need to go through 7.5 of class room and a weekend of practical training if the TC can perform quality control with just Troop Committee Challenge. I think the SM is in charge of program and if the TC doesn't like the SMs standards the TC talks with the COR and the COR possibly with the CC decide if the SM needs to alter his program or be replaced. Either way keep the youth out of the middle. LH

Ya mk9750 that's kinda what I see. I really don't see the CO "culling" the herd and I don't see the current SM/ASMs getting back to basics and teaching the youth leaders how to gain respect or providing a program that does not tolerate disruptive behavior. LH

Eamonn, I meant no offense but as Beavah pointed out I was looking for some "signs" or "markers" a UC would look for in determining quality according to training not experience. I've just finished Cub Roundtable Commissioner training but as I will only deal with the Webelos Leader break out I feel I'm on solid ground. I've been a WDL 3 separate times and have taken 3 groups thru the 20 month program. I've served as Webelos to Scout Transition Chair for about 6 years. I've been WDL trainer for 10 years. I've been an SM two different times the latest for 13 years but don't feel qualified to be a UC unless I took some additional training in areas I'm not up to speed on. As for knots and awards I wear mine too, I'm proud of the 35 years I've spent being served or serving others through this program. I don't see accepting awards or displaying recognitions for service and training. I accept that some adults feel otherwise. What concerns me is the amount of volunteers I am faced with that wear awards and recognitions and expound on their credentials then present personal views as policy or fact. I attended a Council Training Day and was told by the #3 person in training that the Webelos program was too long and that Webelos dens should not associate with boy scout troops until second because it causes the Webelos to loose interest in Webelos program. I listened to a leader promoting NYLT and later in a class titled "The New Scout Patrol" he told us that new scout patrols don't work. He then went on for the rest of the class relating his personal stories. The #2 person in training claims that Baloo and IOLSWDL are interchangeable and in fact her council does both together in 6 hours. For the most part I find the things I hear from people wearing silver tabs and a Commissioners Patch are catch phrases or not necessarily correct. I try not to follow that stereotype. Beavah, go ahead and hijack I'm not having any luck anyway. LH

Sounds to me like the SM requests the BOR when the SM thinks the boy is ready to advance. So the BOR is actually either agreeing with the SMs assessment or disagreeing with the SMs assessment. Boy gets caught in the middle. SM " OK Billy your ready for 1st Class, I'll set up a BOR " BOR "We don't think Billy is ready, we think he needs work on 'x'. " SM " Billy's done 'x' just fine" BOR "We want him to do it better" SM "The SM decides when the requirement has been met, that's why he is the Master of Scouts" BOR " NO the ACPP says the BOR decides if the requirement has been met." SM "Guess we need to schedule a BOR before we sign off in the first place." The boy requests a BOR and request a BOR at any time, he is advanced by the BOR at the discretion of the BOR members. LH

Now I didn't say unit scouters I said direct contact scouters. Direct Contact scouters in Boy Scouts would be SM and ASM. If a troop has it's adults listed as ASM instead of MC I'd look at that first. I've seen troops with most of the male adults listed as ASM, it's like having all your boys listed as APLs or ASPLs. Give the MCs something to do beside crowd troop outings, how many adults does it take to supervise a boy led troop overnight? LH

Merlyn, your post >>Just googling places, I still see plenty of people who didn't know and are genuinely surprised that the BSA doesn't allow gays or atheists, and the fact that their membership applications don't spell this out doesn't help either.

The first thing I was told when I became an adult and joined the District team was NEVER RECRUIT DIRECT CONTACT SCOUTERS FOR DISTRICT POSITIONS. The fact that you say most of your Commissioner staff are taking time away from their primary obligation makes me wonder about the vision of your Professional staff in allowing this. eolesen, why couldn't you see yourself working with a unit? The things you relate in the preceding sentence would indicate that you felt your time was limited. Working with a unit at you own commitment level is far less time intensive than being a UC so I must have missed something. Maybe the reason is that you are trying to give some youth the opportunity that you didn't get. My problem with that is you know what you want to create but have no experience in creating it yourself. I'm not saying that you can not be of value, quite the contrary an outside observer sees avenues and stumbling points those close to the action miss. What I am questioning is the wisdom of having people that have never actually done so meting trying to help others do it instead of having veteran direct contact leaders helping other direct contact leaders once the veteran has turned the reins over. As for the training & background of your Commissioner staff being an issue I ask this. Why don't they step down from their unit positions and do Commissioner work full time? Have they groomed someone to take over? Do they have a solid adult base that could effectively take over? Are their units run according to what they teach? If these are truly boy run units the SM can be replaced and the unit not miss a step. I witnessed this first hand at an early age when I stepped in for a SM that died suddenly in our District . LH

Please Merlyn where have these people been living in a cave? They are evidentally somewhere they can be "googled" but are unaware of the BSA positions. Are you refering to people that have no interest or knowledge of our program or people that sought membership only to find out that even though they are familiar with Scouting being a youth program they were unfamiliar with anything else about it? LH

Tev!!! Is that how homosexuals handle the application for membership discussion? I'm really surprised. My question was directed to Merlyn but I'll ask you also; What is the official policy for accepting new youth members or recruiting youth members with regard to discovering whether these "candidates" for membership meet the moral or religious criteria? The official policy, not your twist or opinion or it. LH

Well as I read nwscouttrainer's last post I'm left with the realization that Ed's method leaves one patrol at best and Barry's method invovles action by adults who don't seem to be interested in that invovlement anymore. mk9750 writes >>I think the choice depends on the end results you want to get<< Who exactly is the "you" in this sentence. I'm not posing this question to mk9750 directly because we all do this at times when we answer or comment. The "you" statement is not directed at nwscouttrainer because nwscouttrainer is not in a position to implement corrective measures directly. If the "you" is meant to identify the adult leadeship then we must ask does this adult leadership have ANY end result in mind? To my eyes these adults don't seem to accept what the end result of their actions is or will become. LH

Well, as you see it, what is the official policy for accepting new youth members or recruiting youth members with reguard to discovering whether these "candidates" for membership meet the moral or religious criteria? LH

Merlyn do you know where the official "ask" policy is documented? If I'm not specifically told to "ask" why should I be expected to "know". If I chose to NOT act upon something I "suspect" how is that adopting my own DADT policy? LH

Exactly the point Beavah makes, what is the goal of the adult in scouting? To seek accolades or to provide a program within which youth can grow and learn? If the DAM and SB are important "goals" then just maybe this adult has set the wrong goals. Where is the glory in being a General if all your "troops" are KIA or MIA. LH