LongHaul

Sorry GaHillBilly not buying that anymore than the poisonous snake thing. The video, if I remember correctly, says that "native" means they would still be here if there were not people to plant them. The invasive plants would not disappear if humans did, and you can't say that they would not have found there way here if humans had never existed. We have no way of knowing what the planet would be like if man had never appeared. Again I commend you on teaching your scouts the real meaning of "Native" just as I have been correcting people about the difference between poisonous and venomous for years. BSA on the other hand just got around to using the correct venomous identification and I really don't think they intemperate "Native" as you do. (and as I will now that you have enlightened me, not because I want to show off but because I think the boys should be taught at every opportunity how their actions can have lasting effects) LH

>>Would you integrate across programs, or would you be sequential?

If National is so **&^%well versed in the ENGLISH language and never prints something that it does not intend to be taken literally then please with all your education tell me what to do for a poisonous snake bite. Or for that matter which snakes are poisonous. I'll give you a hint look in the new requirements book instead of the Handbook at Tenderfoot requirement 12b. LH

Seeing that NYLT is modeled after WB21st are you saying that WB21st doesn't teach leadership it teaches people to teach leadership? LH

GaHillBilly, While I totally agree with what you are trying to do I really have to ask if you think that is the intent of the BSA concerning this requirement? The effort involved in "weeding out" (pun intended) the invasive and/or non-native would warrant a "mention" in Scoutmaster specific training. It's not there, nor is it anywhere I can find. Personally while I think we should, and easily could with a little effort and training, do the rank requirements correctly as you point out I think that BSA intends for these requirements to include what ever is currently growing in your community. LH

I've been teaching Webelos Leader Specifics for about 6 years. I stress the importance of the written 20 month program. I encourage the den leader to focus on the four required activity pins and ask the boys which others they want to work on to fill out the required 7 total. After PLANNING, not covering, the 7, I tell the WDL to utilize their resources in troops and parents to decide which other activity pins to schedule. Planning on attempting all 20 activity pins is NOT recommended. Again the Webelos Program is intended to take the scout from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. As they progress in the Webelos Program the focus should change from achieving the pin to learning and mastering a skill. In the first part of Webelos I they will work on the Fitness pin. After earning this pin they would not be expected to be able to earn Fitness Merit Badge. In the Webelos II program they will work on Readyman. After earning Readyman the boy should be able to pass the first aid requirements for Tenderfoot,and Second Class. He should have learned those skills not just watched someone do them and tried to do it himself. This takes time several months maybe but the skill is more important than the pin because the skill moves forward with the boy and is honed as he advances. There is also the need for the WDL or AWDL to be "testing" or "reviewing" the boys on each and every requirement that a parent has initialed. Family member, Traveler, Fitness are done mostly with family members but the WDL or AWDL must be the ones that sign off which means there is a need at each den meeting to do individual advancement with each boy. Doing a pin a month with all the other duties is not realistic if there is to be skill acquisition. As for 5th grade boys that begin the Webelos program in September, I teach that it can not be the WDLs responsibility to work with these boys in an attempt to earn AOL. It is the WDLs responsibility to have a workable plan that allows these boys to earn AOL. That plan is going to involve a parent or other adult to act as a coach and a commitment from the scout to stick to the plan for 6 months. It is doable, I have done it. The Webelos Leader Handbook has a plan written out that will work. For the WDL to be less than encouraging to a 10 year old that is willing to take on this task is shameful. LH(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Your question of how boys are chosen is a good one. You should find that out. In my troop, as SM, I would tell not ask my TC who I wanted to send at the troops expense others could go at their expense or could ask the TC for monetary help (which has happened and the monetary aid was given) As SM I'm in charge of program and to that end I am allowed by the TC to prepare those I feel are in a position to take over troop leadership. As to who should attend? Every scout 14 years old and First Class whether he is or never will be SPL. We are preparing boys for the rest of their lives not just for service to the unit. Money is always a factor. For some troops it's a small factor others it's a forbidding factor. The same with individual families. The course is still the same and is beneficial. No matter what the boys "prospects" are this course won't hurt and in 99.9% of the cases will eventually help in life. LH If at all possible send at least 2 boys. Having only one junior leader that is trained makes it hard to implement that training. If we could teach this stuff in a troop setting we would not need NYLT or WB. It needs to be done in a large group to get the real benifit and needs to be implemented back in the unit. The boy needs a backup.(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

The title is "DEN" leader not my "SONS" leader. Dad & Lad, Mom & Me are themes for outings not programs. If the Webelos II den leader does not have a plan of action designed to enable the NEW 5th Grade Webelos Scout to earn Bob Cat, Webelos Badge and AOL before crossover then that Webelos Den leader is not doing his/her job. Yes achieving AOL between September and March is tough but it is totally doable with a plan, some parental or other adult help, and a commitment by the Webelos Scout. LH

When a Webelos Scout bridges in to Boy Scouting he should already be a Boy Scout except for the transferring of his registration. In his heart and in his approach to the program he should already be a Boy Scout. The Webelos program is intended to take a Cub Scout from the "credit for being there" approach to "credit for completing the requirements as written" mentality. How we expect a First Class scout to "explain how he has practiced the Oath and Law in his daily life" and how expect a Webelos to answer that question should be different because of differences in age, maturity and the level to which they are involved in the program. Webelos are along for the ride while a First Class scout could be driving. (figuratively) I have ADD, had it as a scout, memorized the Oath and Law just fine took longer is all. Can't remember which Lincoln Trail Hike it was but we had to memorize the Gettysburg Address. Did it while hiking, as a group, out loud, not one guy had to be tested twice. Get the Webelos ready for leadership and responsibility not Webelos III. I'll PM you about the Webelos Overnight thing, if you don't get it PM me with an email address. LH

I should have written that to read "staff food or staff materials" Yes materials is #2 in terms of largest expenditure. Most courses include a hat or a backpack or a tote bag or something. They include camp rental fees if any and at the end beads or cubes or patches or some form of recognition. If the staff is getting anything they need to pay for it not the participants. I'm not saying that I advocate that just that it is what we are told when we are doing our budget. LH

The school associated with our church is considered a charitable organization for tax purposes but I would not accept it for the MB. The school's main objective is not to "bring the people of the community together to work for the good of the community". LH

First off not all councils will accept the web site version. Second how can you fill something on line that requires hand written signatures? Doing what someone told you or what you read on line as opposed to what the people that are required to sign the application are telling you may not be the best path. LH

In North East Illinois Council that "working copy" refects what is actually in Scout Net. If dates are not there these things need to be addressed before the app is presented or you "may" have problems. The purpose of the "working copy" is to alert the unit to any record gaps or errors prior to the actual Eagle application. LH

One of the big problems I have with the Man Scout & Woman Scout that are associated at the unit level as well as being staff for this training and that is when they don't seek to implement that training at the unit level. There have been MS & WS types as perennial WB staff around here for years. During their WB tenure not one boy from their unit was enrolled in what is now called NYLT. Soon as both MS & WS had managed the fourth bead HOLLY COW we got this thing called NYLT and it's all the rage. They are going to staff of course being as "qualified" as they are. As to Women in scouting; The biggest and most often voiced opposition I get is that Scouting should be a place for a boy to be exposed to "positive male role models". That the inclusion of female scouters disrupts that bonding atmosphere. IMO life includes both male and female participants. If part of the "positive role model" example does not include examples of how we interact with the other gender then it is lacking in the "positive" area. IMO any "male role model" that does not address the shift from the 50's/ 60's attitude in scouting toward female scouter to the realization and acceptance that without the Female Scouter this organization would cease to exist is not positive in nature. Any "male role model" that can be seen in the eyes of a youth member to perpetuate or validate the 50's/60's attitude toward female scouters is unacceptable within this program. The positive role model we all should be sending is that while gender may influence a person it does not define that person. Scoutmaster in not a gender defined position any more than Doctor, Lawyer, Supreme Court Justice or President of the United States is a gender defined position. The message and example we should be setting is that we should view everyone on their own merit, ability, and character not according to reproductive physiology. LH

JeffD I've found that the "lemon cake" tweak can make the difference in allot of receipts. I use lemon cake when I make pineapple upside down cake. Use the juice from the pineapple in the cake and add an extra egg for added fluffiness (and cholesterol ) another tweak is to use the small cinnamon breakfast rolls on top of apple , peach or cherry cobbler. The added white frosting puts the sugar rush into orbit. LH

Don't know about the rest of the world but here in good old Chicago.... We don't supply the color, heavy paper, official Eagle app in the standard Life to Eagle packet in a effort to save money. The down loaded forms are not "official" and can be held up. We are told to get the "official" form from council or our DAC when we have a scout that is serious about completion of the requirements. AS a SM of 13+ years I can think of several reasons the CC signed the first app but was reluctant to sign the second. Is an in house BOR SOP for this troop? Did scout x present this app to be signed with no time left for that BOR and the CC signed so as to not deny this scout Eagle even though an in house BOR was never held? How did the scout handle the impromptu BOR? How did the Scout respond to MR G? What really happened during the BOR? I've had a case where a boy actually tried to tell the BOR what it could and could not ask (not an Eagle BOR ) The scout could have changed the CC's mind by how he responded and act during the BOR, proper or not. LH

If my post seemed to suggest that the DAC be contacted for the purpose of making accusations then I apologize. The fact that my post could be taken to have said that makes me wonder if the proceedings are not suspect. If in telling the DAC what happened and the order in which it happened seems to be accusatory it would seem to me that something is wrong with what happened or the order in which it happened. What I have found is that the first one to speak to the person in charge can alter the outcome of future discussions. If the DAC is aware of the circumstances from the perspective of the scout the DAC can be looking for answers for the scout. If the DAC gets the information from Mr. G the DAC then gets the perspective of MR. G. If the DAC gets the info from the CC who seemingly changed his/her opinion of the fitness of the scout to file an Eagle app that information will most likely be given in a manner to support that change of heart. Going thru channels is great as long as everyone does it. In this case that did not happen. The BOR was called under irregular circumstances. It was called without prior notification of the scout. It was composed of "questionable" members. I think the DAC needs to know the basics before he/she hears the explanations for why it was done this way. What really need to happen first is the BOR needs to issue a written explanation for the decision and their recommendations for correction. LH

dan, Don't know which part of Illinois your from but up here in Chicago Area Council we are told in no uncertain terms that staff must pay their own way. A budget is required and it must show that the participants are not being charged for staff food or materials. This is for WB NYLT or any other official training. We are also told to include a 10% to 15% "cushion" in our fees to accommodate unforeseen expenses. Going in the red is very bad. So having money left over can be seen as the goal. LH

This touches some very sensitive spots for me. As Webelos I believe these boys should be asked to slowly shift from credit for being there to credit for completing the requirement as written. Just which requirement was signed off? This makes a big difference, actually a boy does not need to camp to earn his Webelos Badge or AOL. There are options for completion that do not involve actual camping overnight. LH

The fact that the SM and CC signed an "unofficial" app makes me wonder if this troop is familiar with the Eagle application process. Seems like the application was handled badly right along. I would have the scout ask the CC for a written explanation of the BOR's decision and the BOR's suggested remedy. I would also ask that the names of each of the members of that BOR be listed. I think the Distinct Advancement Chair needs to be involved before this turns into a test of power between Mr. G and your son. The DAC should be made aware of the fact that your son's fitness to file an Eagle application was originally approved by both the SM and CC. The DAC should be made aware of the fact that the "in house BOR" was called after the fact and without prior notification of your son. The DAC should be made aware of the fact that the BOR was composed of 80% non Troop Committee members and 80% composed of members that should not have been seated on any BOR let alone an Eagle BOR in house or not. There is a reason SMs and ASMs are not supposed to be on a BOR and this may be a good example for that policy. LH

I also dislike the "over priced" popcorn and the effort it takes to manage the fund raiser. However looking at it from the Council side selling popcorn provides a large chunk of the operating budget. If a unit chooses not to sell popcorn because the parents just want to write a check to the troop should that troop be required to meet some "quota" when it comes time for FOS? Shouldn't the PLC, after all they decide to sell popcorn or not right , be taught that each troop needs to support the Council if the organization is to prosper? As Gold Winger said this is a team effort. LH(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Sorry Ed I just don't see how a school can be seen as a charitable organization. LH

So you "put up with complying without supporting" where you live, the place you work most likely, in practically every interaction you have in life so HEY ya just gotta take a stand someplace. Rock ON! Joni4TA Rock ON! LH

Sorry Joni4TA I still don't see where I said that YOU did or didn't do something. The post you quote very plainly states that the application you signed should have said COMPLY. I fail to see how that warrants the tone and/or content of your reply. "Adamant" would indicate an attempt on your part to clarify and a refusal on my part to acknowledge your position. (See the Merlyn and Ed debates) As for this being a PRIVATE organization yes it is and I was a paid up member long before ANY of the current executive board. Can't speak as to how my tenure stacks up against the CO voting members, don't have a list of those names. As long as my dues are paid I can object all I want so long as I comply until the rules are changed. Also noticed you dodged the question of SUPPORTING every politician that wins and law that is passed. LH

Joni4TA, Try reading my post again. Find the part where I said that you did or didn't dosomething and re post it for me. As for being the type of person that can't comply with something they don't support you must have one %^&*( of a time living in a country where the political ebb and flow is subject to change at every election. If you can tell me with a straight face that you support every last policy, law or ordinance in your local then I'm sorry for you as a person. NO offense meant but following the lead of others to that point seems like a very unproductive life. LH