LongHaul

He is not high-jacking this thread Liasabob it is exactly where I had hoped it would go. The DE made the statement that National considers a boy to have graduated 5th grade as of January 1st. for the purpose of crossover. I had never heard of such a thing so I started this thread to see if anyone else had any similar experience. I had never heard of such a thing and personally I have never seen anything from National which says this. My worry is the ever discussed insurance myth(?) that these boys will not be covered if anything really expensive happens. Also if Scout Net is so date and number sensitive how can it accept a registration that doesn't comply agewise? LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Discussion came up at our last District Operations Meeting; What do you do with a Webelos II that does not want to try and achieve his AOL and at crossover time does not qualify to crossover? According to the application they must be 11 or have graduated 5th Grade, or be at least 10 and have earned the AOL. DO you crossover the none AOL scout and hold the app till he graduates in June? or do you make him hang around the Pack till June? LongHaul

Define "master of ceremonies". To my Way of thinking it is singular and describes one specific person. Host, Co-Host and member of a cast are all different. I vote one at a time. LongHaul

So just think of the experience when you send him north and he goes to the second hand store for a few essentials and spends a couple of days sleeping in a quinsee ( which is a hollowed out pile of snow) he made himself. Sunshine isn't all it's cracked up to be, just ask the people in Seattle. LongHaul

Anthony Wayne Scout Reservation south of Angola Indiana has some great hikes even in winter. Its maybe 20 minutes from Pokagon and you dont need to worry about weather with the refrigerated track. We have used it in 20 degrees and at 50 degrees. The guys think the 50 degree wet track was way faster. Indian Mounds Scout Reservation near Oconomowoc Wisconsin has some great hills for sledding and a nice lake for winter fun. Depending on weather the lake freezes completely and expansion causes cracks all-round the shore line so you are actually on a floating ice island. Locals ice fish and set up shacks. Camp has many activities. MaKaJaWan Scout Reservation near Pearson Wisconsin has cross country skiing, some nice hills and a lake which freezes solid. Testing your Okpik skills by sleeping on the frozen lake with no wind breaks, possibly in a quinzee of your own construction can be a challenge for the older scouts. Camping at below zero temps can be as much fun as 70 degrees and sun. Winter means COLD which is an acronym for; CLEAN, keep your skin and clothing clean and they will insulate you better. OVERHEATING, monitor body temp and prevent overheating which causes perspiration. LAYERING, wear multiple layers rather than one thick layer of clothing. This allows ventilation by opening layers or removing layers to prevent overheating. DRY, probably the most important water transfers heat away from the body 25 times faster than air. Keep inner layers dry as well as outer layers. There is no such thing as bad weather, just poor equipment choices and improper training. Be Prepared and have fun. LongHaul

SWScouter, Maybe it's a Midwest thing but in my counsel and those around me the roundtable "staff" are considered roundtable commissioners and wear the commissioner patch. They first earn the training award as roundtable staff and then are eligible to earn the arrowhead distinguished service award. I wonder if the distinction between commissioner corp and roundtable staff is written down somewhere. I've never given it much thought until recently when I was asked to serve as roundtable commissioner. LongHaul

I agree with you Beav but as far as my tax dollars going to artistic expressions I.....understand(?)......appreciate(?).....even find appealing, for me puts drastic limits on art. I have few if any art appreciation genes. Had a friend in college that majored in expressive dance. She won many awards and made a very nice living at it and what's more important she loves what she does. I think she looks like she is making fun of the mentally and physically impaired. When we "censor" we limit others to our level. LongHaul

Maybe funscout or one of the other republicans can tell me where these "Teach a man to fish" programs are, or were under GW1, or under Reagan. I'll admit that the Democratic solution tends to be "Throw money at it" but tell someone with a drug problem to "Just say No" is like telling a manic depressive to "Just cheer up!" Judging the number of unemployed by how many people are currently receiving unemployment benefits is ridiculous. Unemployment is down because people have exhausted their benefits? You worry about having to go back to being a two paycheck family, what about those that can't get to the level of a one paycheck family? There may be some valid differences between political parties and their approach to serving the country but if your main concern is personal inconvenience then you got little to worry about IMO. LH

Problems I have with the PM feature here is that 1. They tend to get filtered by spam software when incomming. Which means I never know if those I PM ever got the message. 2. When I use the return link on those I do get I've found they don't get through when I ask about them in the regular forum. Could just be my personal software. They are nice when they work though. LH

My plan was to never let this get started but there was no support for that because "It will never happen". My plan was to stop the sale at the beginning when Stone's track record was revealed. In your search of assesment records did you find any other "same zoned" property that was "reassesed" at the same time CAC's was reassested? The other camps not owned by CAC you mentioned for instance. LH

I can only figure that your are referring to the sale of Owasippe Lake which to my knowledge occurred after the change in tax assessment, and some say as a result of the reassessment. Land adjacent to CAC's as I understand it was NOT reassessed at the higher rate at that time. That is to say all the property in that area of that zoning type was not reassessed at that time. >>The people who want to see the property evolve into a long term viable Scout summer camp/green space/conference center/environment research center/FFA/ 4-H/Campfire/church group facility have been attempting to discourage the continuation of the legal actions.<< That says it all. This is not a plan to save "Owasippe" it is a plan to prevent houses being built. Opening the 4800 acres to the public seems like a funny way to "preserve the flora and fauna" and continue the near 100 year camp traditions. LH

I do apologize Jim, if your going to dis a man you should get his name right. As for the OOEC is was presented to the public as being organized to save the camp not just the land. If the OOEC feels that calling what ever they were to set up "Owasippe" would make up for the loss of the camp then I guess I'm just a romantic because I don't Late 70's early 80's Blue Lake Township rezoned the property from what ever it was to a higher rate. Chicago Area Council requested for years to have the zoning changed BLT refused. 1990 (?)BLT agreed to rezone to reduce the tax on the camp. When CAC announced it was going to sell to a developer BLT again rezoned the land to prohibit building homes. When viewed from strictly a property owners stand point seems like BLT was happy to tax the land at a higher rate until the property owner wanted to utilize that land as it was zoned. Puts a different spin on the Blue Lake Township case. LH

One of my reasons for posting this thread is that I had a really close call at camp some time back. We also keep the original and give camp a copy but recent rules from the council attorney say the camp must have the originals with the legal signatures of doctor and parents. Anyway two of our guys were horsing around and one ended up falling down hard on his chest, this was mid afternoon. Got the wind knocked out of him and felt really sick, went to lie down, NO adult was informed at the time. Comes dinner, we do dining hall, no Johnnie. Story comes out I head up to camp with second adult and find Johnie in his bunk says he just wants to rest. We take him to the med center to report incident and have RN look him over. She says let him rest he just got the wind knocked out of him. Johnnie goes to bed early. Next morning Johnnie does not want to go to breakfast says he still feels sick. Back to med center. RN does not want to transport to Hospital spend 45 minutes getting Johnnie "officially" signed out of camp RN will not relinquish med form unless Johnnie leaves camp permanently. Get to town with copy of med form can't contact parents. Hospital can not discuss case with me because I am not parent, legal guardian, and privacy laws prevent disclosure of medical info blah blah blah. In the end the boy had internal injuries and the doctor said that he was surprised Johnnie survived the night. Story #2 While at camp, on a day hike into town, Richie twists his ankle really bad. Call local FDP transport to hospital, severe sprain, cast. Get back home and start paper work, BSA insurance will not cover because we did not go through Med Center. Richie was not on BSA property and was signed out of camp so no longer covered blah blah blah. Single mom limited insurance ended up our CO stepped up and covered the bill. LH

Question for ya Beavah, now I assume when you go to sign this boy out you would ask for his medical form which is being held in the first aid office. What happens when the "nurse" says she does not see the need for a hospital trip and refuses to relinquish the form? Had something like this happen to me a while back just curious how you would handle it. LH

>>It is the members of the Chicago Council who want the houses built.<< Some people just can't see past their own noses Joe. You post in a Scouting forum and for many years were one of us but on this issue you just can't see past your nose. IF those "save OWASIPPE" signs were actually intended to mean SAVE BLUE LAKE TOWNSHIP the I say those involved are as much a bunch of hypocrites as are the Executive Board that started all this. IF those originators of the save OWASIPPE campaign sought to use the name and emotional power associated with it to champion their fight then I hope Stone wins and builds as many one room shacks as he can. If after all the years and all the many scouters that have passed thru Blue Lake Township OWASIPPE means only "property that THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL NOT THE MEMBERS OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL want to built houses on then again I hope Stone wins. I was angry when Blue Lake Township originally rezoned the property and started taxing the camp at resort rates but I thought I understood the need. I objected to the repeated denials for reduction over the years and was happy when they gave us a partial change. I was actually happy when BLT rezoned this time as I wanted the Camp to remain but if it's just a GOVERNANCE ISSUE over what an owner can do with their property then I think I'll start telling all the CAC members to stop sending money to the BLT defense fund and the OOEC fund and spend it on the boys instead. Blue Lake Township deserves as much support from US in their fight as as they show us in ours. LH

I wish this court case was about saving the camp but it is not. >>Chicago Council is selling the property and this entire trial is centered on the value of the property and a zoning issue. Nothing more. << The fight to preserve the "camp" found little support from the locals when it was determined that associating the Blue Lake Township issues with the governance issues concerning the sale of the camp under any circumstances could jeopardize the "zoning issue" case. The signs are still up "Save Owasippe" but if you read this entire thread you'll see that "Owasippe" no longer means what it used to mean. As has been stated this is about property value and zoning, the loss of our camp(s) is secondary if that. As long as there are no homes built Blue Lake Township and it's supporters will be happy, the scouts of CAC will be without a camp but hey priorities are priorities. LH

I don't want to high jack the "retaliation" thread but I'm curious as to the expectations of heath care at summer camp. We have to remember the actual job description of the "camp nurse" or "EMT" hired for that position. They are there to provide immediate health care for minor injuries and to determine if transportation to a hospital is indicated. They don't have access to the diagnostic tools available in emergency room settings and they can not reasonably refer every complaint to such a facility the camp would go broke. At what point do we expect referral to a hospital setting? Obvious major injury of course but if it isn't broken or bleeding what are the bench marks? In not talking from a medical professional's view point I'm asking from the view point of a parent or unit leader. At what point would you expect a boy to be referred to a hospital? LH (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

So FScouter can I extend that concept and say a judge in a trial should not refuse to admit evidence just let the jury decide what is relevant and what is not? The BSA (probably the lawyers) decided some data was either not necessary or of a nature that discloser was either restricted by an agreement made at the time of the incident or the possibility of litigation brought on by a disclosure. Why must we assume that the data was withheld without merit? Did BSA refuse to tell the committee that abuses had occurred? Did the BSA refuse to tell the committee where,locally, the abuses occurred? Did the BSA refuse to supply information to allow the committee to determine how the existing policies either failed or were circumvented? All we know for sure is that it has been reported in the news that BSA refused to share data? "When did you stop abusing your son? "I never abused my son!!! "I did not ask you that I asked when did you stop abusing your son." "I never started so how could I have stopped" REPORT FROM THE NEWS(?) "Accused states he has not stopped abusing his son." Honest? NO Accurate? possibly. LH

I don't know that all the advertisements in Chicago in the early 70's were aimed at the parents but the one I mentioned certainly was. There were other commercials I just don't remember those, then again I turned 21 in 1970 so I not watching Saturday morning cartoons, Bozo at noon and the like. LH

FScouter, Remember I was there for this one. The accusations were made to the police. The police contacted the CO, the Co contacted the DE in an attempt to get the Leader some legal help. The CO, the boys in the unit, everyone that knew this leader were on his side. It was the accuser against 99% of the people involved. Before the DA filed charges and while the initial investigation was just beginning BSA revoked this mans membership. Almost everyone in the District complained and we were told BSA is not an investigatory agency and that policy requires separation of the adult from youth members. As soon as the allegations were made BSA wanted nothing to do with this man even though practically everyone was on his side. I do not understand how police convinced a judge to charge this man on the evidence that was presented in court. As I have said the man was indeed guilty but at the time there was no evidence of that. There were a large number of people vouching for this man and a large number of people willing to testify that the accuser was not a person that could be trusted. The accuser had a reputation of pointing the finger at others to cover his deeds. Things may well be different today but in this case the man was expelled on accusation only. LH

I remember a 30 second clip on Saturday morning not long ago (remember I'm 58 so 10 years is not that long ago) anyway it was a shot of a group of scouts walking along and they come upon an elderly lady. She is standing looking side to side and then into the distance. The shot lets you see her but not her surroundings. One of the scouts walks up and asks if she would like them to help her across. She timidly shakes her head yes and the camera zooms back as she, attached to a zip line goes shooting across a chasm. The tag line is Scouting is an Adventure. In the early 70's we had a few clips made locally that ran on our independent channel 9 WGN in Chicago. One I remember vividly was a shot of our SE, possibly in his office, at a desk. He identified himself and said something about the "kids today". (This was the Viet Nam protest days, the SDS, and the Black Panthers. This clip was aired later in the day and early evening and aimed at the parents.) The SE went on to deliver this line,(possibly not a direct quote but really close) "I can't guarantee that one of our scouts won't drop out of school, do drugs, or stick up a liquor store.......but I'll give you odds on it......and I'll win." LH

I agree the case was probably precipitated by prior events. How she was treated at the Ordeal may have been the result of her reputation before hand and what some may have seen as her "qualifications" for nomination in the first place. Wheel chair bound, knees don't bend, 14 days and nights of camping? What I have some trouble with though is the notion that; "Then again, you can't seek satisfaction by suing your own Council and then expect it to keep you as a volunteer." Maybe it's just that I come from Chicago and have seen where litigation can become the last resort in trying to preserve the program for future youth. Just because a person sought justice or relief in the courts should not be a basis for determining fitness to be a volunteer. If on the other hand continual participation in the program can be seen as providing continual opportunity for litigation then I would understand removal. Saying to a volunteer that if you take me to court for my injustices and abuses then you will no longer be allowed to be a part of the program seems like adding insult to injury. LH Gold Winger ya we can't have shirts made anymore without going thru someone that pays a fee to National. I think this is a monetary thing and not a quality thing myself but that is just me. We used to have patches made for District events that included something representative of BSA. The FDL usually but used the First Class emblem on occasion. Now we have to go thru a licensed provider and the cost has made it so that our patches no longer contain any BSA reference.(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Eventually all shall be revealed. Whether we will ever get the truth is something else all together. As for BSA logos and trademarks; http://www.bsalicensing.org/trademarks.htm http://www.bsalicensing.org/volunteers.htm This is a revenue generating commodity after all. LH

FScouter, Gotta disagree with you and I have first hand knowledge on this one. An allegation was made against a Leader I personally know. His registration was immediately canceled. BSA is not an investigatory agency and when charges of this type are filed with the police BSA separates the accused from it's membership. The charges were investigated, there was a trial because the plaintiff has as much a right to a day in court as the defendant. We all believed that the "State" knew it couold not win this case on the evidence but wanted to make the "situation" public and filed charges. The accused leader was found not guilty. BSA would not allow him to return. The process of reinstatement begins with the CO who must request reinstatement from Council. If Council accepts the petition they forward it to Region, if Region accepts it they forward it to National for the final decision. Anywhere along the chain it can be "tabled" and it stops right there. The end of my story is that some years later evidence surfaced that the Leader was in fact guilty and charges were again filed for offenses committed against other youth. LH (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Would they ever be allowed back in? Is there a rule against it? No, in fact as I understand it there is a procedure outlined for petitioning to be reinstated. Has National ever allowed an expelled volunteer to reinstate again is another question. LH