LongHaul

The question put forward was in essence "Is it right to teach a boy to go behind the Scoutmasters back to get something signed off when the Scoutmaster says he won't sign" Not whether it was "legal". Right and wrong don't change with administrations like rules and regs do. Because in some parts of the world mutilating female genitals is socially acceptable doesn't make it right just acceptable. WoodBadgeEagle spoke about a group of boys who were not living the oath and law, whose parents were not allowing their boys to "grow in moral strenght and character". Who's "Ideals" are a best questionable. Who's "leadership development is non existant. You seize on the fact that he should have passed them on to the BOR. What about helping the boys Bob? Any suggestions on how to help these kids learn to be better "Citizens", take responsibility for themselves instead of having Mom and Dad (later it will be a lawyer) get what they want without actually working for it? What does all your experience, not some rule book, say? Mike Long, I never said Bob suggested rubber stamping anything I accused him of being one. As for the Policy and Proceedure manual check your date. If it's not 1999 or better it's old. According to the Chicago Scout shop requests for copies are on hold. Rumor has it that a revision is on the horizon.

Bob, When it comes to rules and regs your really good. When it comes to moulding boys into adults you repeatedly sound like a rubber stamp scouter. The boy progresses even when he didn't progress as long as he did his best according to what he feels his best should be. The SM Handbok says to discuss the boys activity in the troop and his understanding and practice of the ideals of Scouting. "Gee Scout, you never want to camp, you take no ledership responsibilities, show little respect for the troop and it's leaders." "I know but I'm doing my best to get by with as little work as possible so shut up and sign my book!" IMHO Give every boy an Eagle Badges when he fills out the application. Let the one that what to learn stay and the rest can take their prize and go home. WoodBadgeEagle, Definatly don't wait to do SMC. It's part of advancement yes but it's communication on a one to one level with the boys. I always ask them to tell me something that I'm doing wrong or not doing right. At first they all have trouble with this. Criticize an Adult? When they begin to see that the things they say get acted upon and that I don't think I'm above valuing their opinion they open up more.

Bob White, Let me get a few things straight! Are you suggesting that; 1. A boy cannot fail a Scoutmaster conference? He should be signed off as having completed it regardless of his attitude? 2. It has always been my understanding that the SMC was intended to prepare the boy for the BOR. Are you suggesting this is not the case? WoodBadgeEagle, You should never have "invented" a leadership project for them. As others have already said these boys have been trained to expect being passed along with the least amount of effort.

Having accepted the job of Webelos Transition Chair for my district this has become a sore spot for me. If boys are crossing over anywhere from February thru September traking those who don't cross is almost imposible unless each Pack sends a list to the DE. The Webelos program was shifted to an 18 month approach in 1989. The Webelos leader Handbook has several Den Meeting Plans all targeting Feb/March for crossover. Having three or four months to introduce the new boys to the Boy Scout concept and prepare them for Summer Camp was a large intent in changing from a 24 month approach. Statistically boys that attend Summer Camp within a few months of joining the troop stay in Scouting longer. Yes I read all the posts about numbers and retention in the FCFY threads but this is Nationals song. I personnally agree but don't have verifiable data to support this opinion. I just wish the Webelos Leaders and the Scoutmasters would give the 18 month program a chance.

Yarrow, If you are attending a funeral in the capacity of a Scout, you should wear a full uniform. What ever the full uniform for your troop is. OA sash is only worn if attending as a member of the OA for the purpose of honoring a departed OA member with the broken arrow ceremony. OR If you are attending as a representative of the OA, not just as a scout. I suggest attending as a troop at a pre arranged time.

Mike F., Unless you feel you would be slighting your #2 son by not wearing his troops numerals on a shirt, keep the originals. You should register with both units with your #1 son's as primary.(I only choose #1's because you were there first) You help as you can and the boys in the second troop should be able to understand that. What would you wear if both troops attended a District function?

Sctmom, The requirement in question I believe would be Tenderfoot req #1, right? "Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed,before going on an overnight camping trip. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it." As a Scoutmaster one of my biggest challenges is to teach the boys to take responsibility for themselves, READ THE REQUIREMENT, and make prior arrangements with leaders when a boy wants something. Yes leaving from a parking lot is hecktick, outings should have a planned time table. These aren't carved in stone but everyone should know what is going on and when. If a boy plans on covering some requirement skill he should check with the person he plans to work with and be sure this will be possible. If you want someone to come up to your son and say "Now we'll do this so get your books so they can be signed", this is what he will learn to expect. Life don't work that way! Scouting is a learning experience. When I was a scout we didn't have troop guides, now we do, cuz we've grown. In my troop the reminder comes from the troop guide and only for the first six months. After that he is their to answer questions and spot individual problems which he brings to the attention of ASPL or ASM. Boys that are expected to be self sufficant become self sufficant, which does not preclude asking for help. Tell your son to have a one on one with the troop guide or ASPL and find out the routine for working on advancement. In our troop the SPL has all the new guys bring their packs, READY TO CAMP, to a troop meeting before the outing. The new patrol cover this requirement during their patrol time during the meeting.(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

OldGrayEagle, I own several uniforms for different functions, but that is my choice. The practice I've always seen used was you wear the uniform for the position of your primary registration. If you are a Scoutmaster and hold duel registration for a District or Council position you wear your Scoutmaster uniform, that's your primary job. Many Councils however want you to use your highest position as your primary registration. (That numbers thing again, they want more District and Council registration) Expecting Scouters to own uniforms for every job they agree to do is foolish, you lose qualified people that aren't in a position to invest $70+ everytime they take on another "hour a week" Mike Long, I think Bob White will agree on this, wearing a district committee patch along with Troop numerals is incorrect.

Bob I'm suprised at your response. I would have expected you to say that it was up to the boys, if they wanted to stay together they could but if they wanted to regroup it was their call. I personally would rather if the boys stayed in their respective patrols and figured a way to deal with the reduction of members. Once a Bear always a Bear. My troop has realigned itself several times because the boys wanted to regroup. I let them. The Senior Patrol changes the most, naturally but I'd rather see unity among patrol members. The idea of having the two smaller patrols work together for a while sounds good but I would promote it just that way. Two smaller groups working together for a common goal.

CubsRgr8, I would think losing half your NEW scouts would not be something a Troop should take lightly. While Webelos, how many different Troops did these boys visit? You mention that your Troop got crossovers from four different packs. How many troops do these boys have to choose from? I'd ask those who are leaving what attracted them to you in the first place? What did they expect that they didn't get and could they get it in another troop. I love this program so much I hate to see kids missout because they are still kids and don't realize that leaving may be a bad decision.

As far as the requirement updaters, Troopmaster puts out "Patches" which correct these. I was under the impresion that only one person could be the base and changes made to that data base could be transfered to others using the back up file. We could never input data from more than one computer. When you transfer files it overwrites what was there before.

Oh BOB!!!, Just when I thought we might get over this gay leader thing and get back to the real Scout stuff you gotta bring out DARWIN??(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Bob, This is that small area where we disagree completely. It is not your right to be a member and openly challenge this policy. I am an American. I am of Polish ancestry but NOT a Polish-American. I was born here and hope to someday die right here, but when the ruling body I helped elect does something I don't like I WILL BE HEARD. I am a Scout Leader by choice both mine and my CO'S and the local Councils and Nationals. No where have I ever seen anything that says I gave up my right to openly challenge policy. Be it verbally, written, or thru my actions SO LONG AS THOSE ACTIONS DO NOT GO AGAINST THE OATH OR THE LAW. If I'm out in front of my local NBC affiliate IN UNIFORM protesting this policy, yes can my butt. When in uniform you are a representative of BSA act like it. If on the other hand I have on my Bears Tee Shirt and I'm out there protesting this policy that's my right. As Leaders striving to teach boys to become responsible adults we would be doing them an injustice to tell them not to speak out when they see something that they believe is wrong.

Thanks Bob, I hope you can find your letter or give me an idea of who to write at National to get their present take on this. I agree that many leaders read things into requirements that aren't there. At our summer camp we have three section camps running each summer. If a Boy were to sign up for Camping merit badge at all three camps he would be asked to complete three very different programs based on the attitude of the ScoutCraft Director. Some people are still intent on making things a test of manhood or right of passage instead of a learning experience. Not that "a boy's best" approach wouldn't open another can of worms I might help to curb the guys who need to prove something to others in order to feel satisfied.

What they want is for scouting to validate their lifestyle Once again Bob White has hit in the gold.

Thanks for responding I need ideas. I go to every roundtable and have been asking for responses since September. We have a mail box for each unit and I've put one copy of the questionaire in each box. I've had a copy mailed to each CM,SM, and WL II Leader. I also passed out copies in March at the roundtable to fill out and return before you leave. Got 6 out of 100. "The WL should do this." "My membership chair has one of these" Everything but what I need. People will come to roundtable but willnot take three minutes to answer questions. Yes I can attend each packs pack night and corner a leader but I would like to develope a plan or program to eliminate the need for that.

I've been asked to chair our district transition team. We have 40+ packs and 40+ troops. Crossovers range from February thru September. I can't think of a way to track this. I have sent out questionaires (three times) as to when crossovers are planned and asking which packs are in touch with which troops but only received 10 replies. Any pointers on how you run your transition teams. Also has anyone heard of a "Bridgebuilder" program? It is intended to increase transition/retention by recognizing leaders in Webelos and Scouting who work to insure a smooth transition. Qualifications are to be trained, have good contacts etc. I'm looking for things to help our program. I'm told we loose close to 40% of our Webelos.

Again I failed to communicate my idea, my fault. I was suggesting your CO title the bus, you have the purchase price. If your CO titles it in their name as a non profit (or whatever) Insurance is abtainable. At that point you can get into specific costs. Our problem was we couldn't buy insurance at any price because the troop isn't an ensurable agency.

You guys may want to check this out http://www.powderhorn-bsa.org/ Copy and paste in you address box

Bob White, You have stated several times that the level of expertise or level of accomplishment is set at a boys best. You quote the book often, and this is a good thing we write things out so everybody knows the rules. Where is it written that the bar is set at a boys best. Is this just an interpritation taken form the oath?

What Bob White said! The man knows where of he speaks. We have a Mission. We have Goals. We have a method of delivery. They are all written down and available for those who seek knowledge of our program.

KoreaScouter, Requiring training beyond Fast Start to be a Scoutmaster would result in fewer Scoutmasters and thus fewer troops so that won't happen. I took Basic Leaders Training in 1970, it was three weekends Friday evening till noon Sunday. Then we had CornerStone, Bob White remembers this one he has refered to it, it was seven sesions. Then it went to one evening, one full day and one outdoor weekend. Then it went to two evenings and one outdoor weekend. A few years ago Chicago Area Council went to a one weekend Friday evening till Sunday afternoon, promoted as "Come out for one weekend go home with a trained patch" No kidding. Leaders weren't taking training so who ever has the power to decide these things watered the course to fit the time leaders were willing to invest. Now we are back to the modular concept. Take New Leader Essentials (2 hrs.) and which ever specific training you require, for Scoutmasters this is three 2.5 hr class room sessions. Outdoor Leaders Training is sperate and runs Friday evening till 2:30 Sunday afternoon. One Evening (New Leader Esentials) One Full Day (Scoutmaster Specific) One Outdoor Weekend (Outdoor Leaders Training) We keep going in circles trying to get people to take training but they just won't, I wish I knew an answer. So many people have pointed out that poor training equals poor leadership equals poor program equals poor youth participation. On the Gay Youth issue it is not specifically addressed, religious duty is but not the Gay issue. BUT I was in our Scout shop last week and they were told that a new Advancement Committee Guide and Troop Advancement Guidelines were supposed to be out come the end of May. How accurate this is I don't know but I wouldn't be suprised if sexual orientaion is mentioned. In the Current Insignia Guide Clause 9. has been put into bold type All badges and insignia shall remain the property of the Boy Scouts of America subject to recall for cause by the Corporation or its duly authorized representatives. It's been there but not in bold type. Then the Gay issue was the first time I heard of a boy being stripped of a rank after he's earned it.

Troop ownership of a motor vehicle, or trailer for that matter, goes to insurance. A Troop cannot get auto or fire and theft insurance on a vehicle as far as I have been able to find out. My troop owns a trailer which is registered to Troop xxx c/o me under my SS# and Drivers Licence. We tried to insure the trailer but were told by several agents that only our CO can get insurance on the trailer because the troop in not an insurable agency under the law. Check with your CO. You have to be registered as a not for profit or public trust(fire deptment, police, park district,school etc) in order to sponsor a troop and that is what is needed to carry insurance. This is what I have been told, check your area things may be different.

eisely, You said; Current demographic projections indicate that California will be majority latino in a few years. Scouting should find a way to make itself more interesting and relevant to these people. The conservative values of scouting are quite compatible with the world view of latinos and immigrants in general. Make itself more interesting and relevant how? Are you suggesting altering a National program to attract specific target groups? Does Scouting want to change who and what it is to attract new boys?

slontwovvy, I have never know National Policy to "promote" sexual anything. Nudism, bestiality, incest, or any of the other 2009 fetishs, perversions or alternate lifestyles are specifically addressed by National as being grounds for exclusion. These issues are to be addressed by the individual Chartering Organization. WHY Gays an athiests are singled out is the topic of many posts. We, meaning those of us who post, tend to be divided on that one.