LongHaul

I don't know if this is going to clear up or muddy things. Lets say that National in it's infinite wisdom decided to change the required badges for Eagle. Beginning January 1 ,2006 you must earn Swimming merit badge. does that mean that those who have earned it prior to Jan 1 , 2006 can't use the badge already earned? LongHaul

BrentAllen, Surely you think the UN is the great arbiter on the planet! Not even close. Have you ever thought about the possibility that, given your views and positions on these isssues, that if you had been born in Bagdad instead of America you'd be a terrorist?Pushing the Israelis into the sea is how one would get them out of the area. Everywhere else is Muslim. Yes this was done in the 1940s ,again the short memory ,like 1940s is so long ago that it doesnt matter anymore. To the people of the middle east it matters. Hey the Israelis claim to the land is that God gave it to them several THOUSAND years ago. This is all politics, it has nothing to do with justice, freedom or democracy, its politics. What would I suggest we do? Realistically we cant do anything to correct this situation because we are not the only ones involved. What we can do to work toward a solution is find out what the other side really wants. I dont believe the Muslim Nation wants to exterminate everyone else on the planet. I think they want to be allowed to live their lives their way without interference. The question would be who do we talk to? The governments we have helped to keep in power dont represent the people of their countries they represent those in power. You can kill people but you cant kill ideas. You can not stop hatred with a bullet you create it with bullets. As long as we refuse to accept responsibility for our foreign policies we will have foreign enemies. What do you propose we do, kill all the Muslims just to be sure? LongHaul

My question to him would be "Are you embarrassed because someone will find out you are a Boy Scout or embarrassed by the uniform?" If the boy is Ok with everyone knowing he is a scout, he would be in plain view if at a meeting, why the problem with the uniform when everyone else is in uniform? Sounds to me as if there is some peer pressure going on here. The boy has been active but now is embarrassed by the uniform. Maybe a discussion with the SM and SPL or with the other members of the troop this boy identifies with might help him past this hurdle without loosing the benefit of scouting. I dont think the SPL and PLC should make exceptions to the rule for this scout, personally I think the uniform is part of the program. LongHaul

BrentAllen, I would suggest you brush up on our National Foreign Policy with regards to the middle eastern countries in question. What have we done over the last 100 years to help the common man find a forum for his needs and grievances. What have we done to better the lives of the common people in the countries we are so determined to free now? Look back at which governments we supported with monetary aid and military training and supplies. Look at how our actions have impacted the lives of the common citizen. You may get some idea as to why we are once again the ugly American. Just for fun research The School of the Americas used to be run in your neck of the woods. I wonder if President Bushs desire to oust the dictators and bring democracy to these people extends to dethroning the royal family in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. You mention the thousands of innocent men , women and children killed on 9-11, how many innocent men women and children do you think died in the streets of Bagdad during Desert Storm? Do you think they were firing those Scuds from the roof tops? Were there factories and munitions stores in downtown? Or were we trying to demoralize our opposition and the men, women, and children killed in the process were just collateral damage? We insist on imposing our will on others and then are outraged when they retaliate in the only way open to them. LongHaul

Rooster7, How is trying to understand why something happened or what motivated some one or some group to do a thing justifying it? Where in anything Ive written in any post have I condoned, or justified violence committed by any group? Why do so many people believe that disagreeing with a current administrations policies constitutes un-American activities? The president is not America. The military is not America. One can actually support the men and women in uniform and still disagree with the mission they have been given. You question whether I am trying to justify 9-11 in a manner that implies that trying to justify it would be a bad thing yet you use 9-11 to justify our response to it. A small group of individuals perpetrated an act of violence against us so that justifies our invading sovereign states, bombing cities, killing civilians, imposing our cultural standards on anyone in our path, everything is justified because of 9-11. However NOTHING we might have done could possible be grounds for what they did on 9-11. Now we are discussing torture and justify it with 9-11. Everything comes back to 9-11 except that we now know that Bush had plans to invade Iraq before 9-11. He had plans to oust Saddam Hussein before some non Iraqis perpetrated 9-11. After 9-11 all air travel was stopped except the planes carrying the Bin Laden family out of our country. Bin Laden was our boy when we were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. We supported the Taliban. We supplied arms and supplies to the resistance and when they finally won through we up and left them. Large portions of the male population of Afghanistan between 14 and 50 were dead or maimed. Where were our humanitarian efforts to help rebuild and stabilize the country after the Russians were ousted? We want to bring Democracy to the world even if it means killing everyone that disagrees with our definition of it. You mention Munich and the Muslim world as if all Muslims were responsible, as if all Muslims condone what was done, as if all Muslims support what was done. Why is it so hard to understand that those same people lump us together. Everything that the West has done to them culturally is blamed on America, with the West including any great power. Munich was an Arab/ Israeli issue but you want to make it a Muslim issue. When the decision was made to take the land which became the state of Israel away from the people that owned it at the time and give it to the new state of Israel do you believe it was a decision made by Muslims? A decision made by Arabs? It was a decision made by those with the military might to enforce their will upon the people in the region. What recourse did the Muslims and Arabs have? Why is it so hard to understand the hatred that results from acts of aggression. You seem to understand the rage caused by 9-11 what if they didnt destroy the Trade Center but instead successfully invaded and took control of New York State. Would you be in favor of just letting them have it or would you support retaliatory strikes to retake our homeland? We are discussing torture as being acceptable would terrorism be acceptable in an effort to retake our homeland? At what point would you say stop the fight? Lastly if President Bush is so right in his actions why hasnt the Republican Congress declared war? We use the word indiscriminately and at will but all of us know that war can only be declared by Congress and it hasnt, why not. If so many Americans support this action why not legitimize it with an act of Congress? LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Am I reading these posts right? Do some of you actually believe that ANYTHING and I mean literally ANYTHING can be justified as long as the price is right? In 1941 the Japanese Military bombed Pearl Harbor, which incited Congress to declare war. (The atrocities committed in China, the Philippines and the Okinawan chain before that had little affect. ) Yet in 1971 we couldnt wait to sell them Southern California . Deliberately avoid bombing certain mainland Japanese cities to leave them in good condition to judge effect (the fact that it also attracted civilians fleeing the bombings elsewhere not with standing) and then drop a WMD on them. Hey no problem. As long as we can say it saved AMERICAN LIVES we can do ANYTHING we deem necessary. The end justifies the means. I wonder how some of you would feel if the person BEING tortured was a family member or child. But our government NEVER makes mistakes so wrongful imprisonment and torture could never happen. Americas problem is we have a very short, selective memory. To us 100 years is a long time. To most of the Arab nations 100 miles is a long distance. They have lived within 100 miles of their birth place all their lives and their families have lived in the same place for thousands of years. Some had family members involved in the Crusades, stories passed down from generation to generation. We will travel 100 to have dinner! and as Ive said can forget past aggressions against us if the money is right. Why is there no discussion about what WE did to these people that they want to kill us? You can believe its religion if that makes it easy but most of you know thats not the truth. We have imposed our views, culture and influence on these people for a very long time. We support dictators and ruling class rich in countries and then wonder why the common people hate us. The fact that in one breath we discuss teaching youth to make moral and ethical choices and in the next claim that WMD are moral and ethical if we use them but grounds for killing thousands of innocent civilians if we think the other guy might be trying to make them gives me cause to wonder . LongHaul

From Accro40's post; 2. During transportation to and from planned Scout outings, A) Meet for departure at a designated area. B) Prearrange a schedule for periodic checkpoint stops as a group. C) Plan a daily destination point. A common departure site and a daily destination point are a must. If you cannot provide two adults for each vehicle, the minimum required is one adult and two or more youth membersnever one on one. Have a common meeting place, periodic check points as a group, daily destination point BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CARAVAN!!! You may be interested to know that if you left from a common spot and meet at a common spot and have an accident with another vehicle in your group at that meeting place the BSA insurance can refuse to pay under the no caravaning clause. Happened to a local group on a winter campout when one driver rear ended another pulling into an icy parking lot. First car arrived ten minutes earlier. As the second vehicle pulled into the lot the boys in the first car began to exit the vehicle and when the second slid into the first a boy was hit by an open door and injured in a resulting fall. The insurace carrier claimed they were caravaning. I always encourage traveling in uniform LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Sorry folks was speaking from memory and forgot the age requirement was just changed. You can join boy scouts at 10 if you have earned the AOL. The boy can join a troop if he completes the AOL requirements. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Exactly unless it is for long term camping. Then what? Must he still sleep in a tent? We can imply that cabins don't count but does it actually say that? What it says is "Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded)." Being "Old School" I know how I read that, what I want to know is how to the rest of you read that. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

What is need here is to read the rank eligibility portion for the Cub Scout Ranks. To be a Tiger a boy must be in first grade, hence he cant join right out of kindergarden. Will certain councils accept apps from boys not technically eligible? See Lisabobs post. A boy is a wolf as soon as he graduates first grade. The eligibility stipulation reads has completed the first grade. An individual pack can give a boy what ever award they choose and allow work on badges and ranks under what ever conditions or in what time frame they want it, does not make it right. Rank eligibility, advancement, and requirements are clear. Sorry CascoDad if your son joined after Summer camp was over and graduates into a Wolf den upon graduation of first grade he cant earn the award. As to what constitutes Day Camp or resident camp its what ever the individual Council says it is anywhere from 1 to 5 days in length. LongHaul

So often in this organization the youth are forced to suffer for their parents. The bottom line is that if the boy isn't registered it is actually against BSA Regulations to award him any BSA rank or recognition. He can not join a troop LEGALLY until he has earned the AOL and is 10 1/2 (unless he has completed fifth grade). So if the parent won't pay to re-register for another term the boy is no longer registered after December and thus inelegable to participate. Holding an AOL for him in December is up to the Pack Committee. LongHaul

In General a boy can work on any requiremetns for any rank up to First Class at any time and in any order. The stipulation of "While a XXXX scout (where XXXX is a rank) do the following; has been removed from the lower ranks. As I understand it a boy can finish Frist Class before he finishes Tenderfoot but can't pass the BOR. Ranks must be completed in order. The question is can a boy fullfill a requirement by doing something that wasn't a requirement when he did it? The requirement says do "whatever" it doesn't say do "whatever" while, after, during, at, or any other qualifier. If the boy does "whatever" he has met the requirement that says do "whatever". LongHaul

All you Camping Merit Badge Councelors out there. Questions have been raised "Do all 20 nights of camping for REQ. 9 have to be completed AFTER the date the blue card is first issued?" Question 2 "Req 9 states that nights must be spent under the stars or in a tent you pitched except for the nights at summer camp. Does this mean that you can sleep in a tent already pitched or that you can sleep in a cabin?"

Prairie Scouter, Depends on what you mean by what do you do. Are you asking from the position of Scoutmaster, where the boy needs a new Blue Card to complete the badge? From the stand point of Merit Badge Counselor where the boy wants credit for achievement he cant substantiate? From the stand point of parent that wants their son to get credit for requirements completed? The Scoutmaster can attempt to verify or recreate the missing card by contacting the original merit badge counselor. The parent should contact the Scoutmaster or Advancement chair. As a Merit Badge Counselor you have to follow the requirements as written in the Requirements publication. You cant sign a completed card if the boy hasnt completed the requirements and you dont know that he has if he cant produce a partial but wants credit for past work. As NWScouter said we can give credit if we think the requirement was fulfilled as in showing us the project used to complete the requirement. I counsel Swimming merit badge can I take a boys word that he has passed the basic swimmers test if he has no documentation or partial? Should I just let him jump in the pool? I feel I need to have him do the test again as a safety concern. Which position are you asking about? LongHaul

Acco40, You are correct that the decision finally rests with the Scoutmaster, I would hope that the SPL and PLC had some input. As to your example, if this scout is First Class then he has gone on outings but has now stopped. This would need to be discussed in a Scoutmaster conference in our troop. Our troop meetings though not entirely by the book do follow the concept of 4 weekly meetings preparing for a monthly activity. We try to have a theme for the monthly outing and that theme is used to prepare the weekly meeting plan. If a scout will participate in the planning and preparation but not the event I question whether I could consider this active. You will practice with the team but not show up to play in the game? You say this patrol has participated in only two outings one being summer camp. Does this reflect good leadership on the part of the Patrol Leader? What part can this patrol play in the monthly outing? What planning and preparation can they be doing for the monthly outing if they dont participate in the monthly outing? Why do they come to meetings? This is all material for a Scoutmaster conference with the members of this patrol BUT what we are discussing is what constitutes serve actively. The Set up; We have 4 weekly meetings and 1 monthly outing, that is 5 activities add a monthly PLC thats 6 activities of which a patrol leader participates in 83.3% of the scheduled events. Going on numbers I would have to say he is active, thats why numbers cant be the final determining factor. What about serve? Is this boy executing the duties associated with his position? What does he actually do at troop meetings if he is not going on the outing that is being prepared for? Is the training and education part complete without the practical application? IMO This is an example of a boy that holds a position but is not truly executing the duties of his office. He is active but is not serving his patrol in the capacity of Patrol Leader. This all hinges on defining terms, is the coach of the last place team any less the coach than the coach of the first place team? He may not be as good of a coach but he is still the coach. As I have posted elsewhere the POR requirement has been a requirement for a long time but the actual wording has changed several times. Being assigned or elected to a position of responsibility, holding the title, and actually executing the duties of the office are all different things and are not interchangable . IMO How serve actively is going to be interpreted must be made known to every scout at the beginning of each rank. Once a boy begins working on a rank these interpretations should not be changed unless the boy approaches the Scoutmaster and requests some special consideration for which the boy is prepared to state his case. Scoutmasters must be fair and consistent but should not be so inflexible that a boy is denied advancement because of something beyond his control. LongHaul

Fleetfottedfox, First in my book the dad you mentioned is a prime example of a scout who attained the rank of Eagle as opposed to an Eagle Scout. Along with the list of famous people lets remember when Russia beat us into space with Sputnik. President Eisenhower made our space program a high priority. He demanded only the best pilots in the military ,he felt they were better disciplined, were to be tested. After all the testing and weeding out, the American people were presented with the Mercury Astronauts. Six of the seven were scouts at some time. The first American to orbit the earth John Glenn is an Eagle Scout. First Human to walk on the moon Neil Armstrong is an Eagle Scout. Jim Lovell commander of Apollo 13 "Huston, we have a problem." an Eagle Scout. The only Mercury Astronaut not a former scout was Deke Slayton. He was also the only Mercury Astronaut not to go into space, they said it was a heart thing but I think we all know what was missing. I've heard recently that after Col. Slayton resigned his commission, because the military physicians wouldn't admit he was ok, and got a civilian position as astronaut he did go into space. The thing is he had also joined Scouts as an adult leader and had just completed Basic Leader training before his flight. I have not been able to confirm that. I'm all for organized youth sports I competed all through my Scout days. I encourage my scouts to be active in sports, your young once live life to it's fullest. They should be able to make time for both sports and scouts. With my competition days LONG behind me I'm still a Scout. LongHaul

SWScouter I think you are confusing OGE with Greying Breaver. As to getting the "stuff" together the boy may be referring to his records. Dates of merit badges, BORs, POR dates etc. our boys don't have all the necessary info unless they or their parents keep really good records. We copy all the pertaining advancement reports and keep them in a folder at hand in case questions arise after the Eagle App is submitted. LongHaul

Sorry hotdesk your link was to a council interpretation of National Policy it doesn't work outside that council. Get a hold of some back issues of the scout handbook. Circa1957 and up, You'll find that the wording for this requirement has changed over the years. It used to say Serve in a position of leadership to the satisfaction of his Scoutmaster. Then it said hold a position of leadership. Then it said serve in a position of leadership. Now it says serve actively in a position of leadership. Just having a title no longer fills the bill. Holding a position and serving actively in a position are two different things. OGE yes, you tell the boy that he can't attain the rank of Eagle in troop 1 as long as the rules were made known to him from the start. What is acceptable in one troop may not be in another. I know of a scout that was awarded the rank of Eagle while being on the sex offenders list for having been twice convicted of sexual assault. The BOR that the troop chose to seat advanced him and the District Representative allowed the rank advancement. IMO Exactly what the requirements "mean" are just as interpretable in Scouting as the Constitution is every time we get a new set of Supreme Court Justices. In my troop every New SPL has a chance to make his case for re-interpreting the requirements up to First Class. Every Troop applies their "take" on how each requirement is interpreted. Active is a subjective term, active as compared to what. What constitutes Active is the decision of the SPL and the PLC with the guidance of the Scoutmaster. I will say that our troop does not have a numerical designation for active, number of meetings, outings, service projects etc. each scout is "tested" independantly and I now wonder if they are all held to the same level of involvement. I can't remember a scout being denied advancement because of not being active enough but I don't sit on BORs as Scoutmaster. I will have to bring this up to the SPL and PLC. The requirements while open to interperatation must be uniform. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

FScouter, Ever wonder why National didnt market their New Woodbadge as Woodbadge II and leave the original one alone? If you wanted advanced leadership and team building training youd have a place to find it. If you wanted the traditional course you could find that also. I think its because they wouldnt have found many takers. They needed the name and reputation of the course they felt was no longer relevant in order to get enough people to take their new course and make it profitable. When traditional scouting has been replaced by the Learning for Life Program, Woodbadge for the 21st. Century will be refined and ready to be sold to Corporate America just like Learning for Life is sold to School districts today. Lets get back to the original topic of what constitutes a Scouter and put this Woodbadge debate in the Woodbadge forum. LongHaul

Kahuna touched on the cruel and unusual punishment aspect but the right to bear arms issue won out. Id like to look at the cruel and unusual punishment provision again. Anyone think that the framers envisioned a penal system controlled by gangs where inmates are subjected to physical assault, sodomy, sexual abuse, and intimidation as part of their sentence imposed by the court ? Society acknowledges the systems lack of ability to protect inmates. We had Scared Straight and other programs which used the reality of prison life to influence troubled youth. It is portrayed on television in most of the police, courtroom, law and order shows which populate prime time. Society as a group accepts the injustice as the price of doing business. In todays society where the minority can dictate to the majority, where political corruption is determined by whos in power rather than the acts themselves, where we will debate the wording and intent of the second amendment but ignore the part where it says only Congress shall declare war, who sits on the Supreme Court should be determined by that persons ability to apply the laws impartially and not political lines. This thread began with an opinion about changing the wording of the Constitution, lets keep in mind that ours is the oldest established government on the planet. No revolutions, no coups, no military takeovers, we are the longest running show today. We have amended the Constitution, reinterpreted it repeatedly but how often since 1788 have we changed the basic wording? That doing this should be a topic of discussion now should remain our topic here. Remember Alito could be called upon to decide who your next president will be. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Ed, By that definition the Learning for Life Program which does not camp, use the patrol method, have advancement, is not youth run, is still "Scouting". The troop that is so by the book that they don't burp unless they can find justification to do so in the publications are one in the same with the in school/after school baby sitting program are one in the same in terms of being Scouting? LongHaul

This type of discussion and interjection of views is exactly what I was looking for, I will rejoin here to respond to Eamonn and Ed Mori. Eamonn wrote; A lot of what the youth see as the Scouting Program is the delivery person. The Adults that are there week in and week out, these people are the BSA to that kid.Still in the eyes of the youth we are Scouting what we do and what we offer is to them the Scouting program. Hitting the nail on the head does not do justice here. I was introduced to Scouting in 1957as a Wolf and stayed active till I was 25 and got married. Soon as my oldest son was able to join I was back and have been active since. When I was a scout in the early 1960s my father was one of my Scoutmasters. Have been through numerous training courses I can look back and say without a doubt that Dad and his successors did a lot of things wrong and some that were actually against standing BSA policy. Its so easy to be the Monday morning quarterback and say that things could have been better if my leaders had stuck closer to the book program than they did. As Scoutmaster myself today I cant truthfully say Im not any better at sticking to the book than my leaders were. I try not to repeat their mistakes( as I see them) and choose to make my own (as hindsight often indicates). The point is I didnt know they were not doing it right. I took it on faith that they knew what Scouting was and how to do it. What Im looking for here is to get other experienced input to gauge my opinion of my approach in delivering what I see as "The Program". Ed Mori wrote; If we continue to do our best in teaching the Scouts in our units to make moral & ethical decisions we are Scouting! Is that actually the case? Is making moral and ethical decisions the definition of Scouting today? Ive heard the term Traditional Scouting and Traditional Units when dealing with Counsel Professionals. There is a whole other group of Scouts(?) in the Learning for Life Program that do none of the things I do except learn to make moral & ethical decisions. The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Our Vision Statement is; The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. The Program by which we accomplish these goals seems to be what is up to interpretation. LongHaul

Nothing is wrong or bad about using the published materials but when we are limited by those materials to the extent that we cannot define what we do without them maybe we should step back and take a look at what we are doing. Have you ever proof read something and read over the same error because you don't "see" it even though it is there? When we use preset definitions and catch phrases repeatedly rather than our own words we sometimes drift from our course without realizing it. I was once told that "If it isn't in the training sylabus it shouldn't be included in the training." Are we to believe that who ever writes the National Publications are the only ones that understand "The Program" and when their views change everything else is "NOT The Program"? I'm looking for discussion and views on just what it is we spend so much of our lives trying to provide today's youth. The "Program" today is much different from the one I had delivered to me in 1960, even though our goals and methods have remained the same since 1911. I'm not knocking National, I sometimes disagree with them but as Bob White would quickly remind us we agreed to deliver their program and gave our word, in signing the adult app, that we would. It's their way or become a youth group, I support that. I'm just looking for some views from others who are supposedly doing the same thing I am, delivering program. Everyone of us can see differences in what we do and how we approach delivering program and how others do and see things. I'm looking for opinions. LongHaul

In another thread it was asked What is a Scouter. In answering that question it was suggested that a Scouter is someone who lives the Scouting Program. Which prompted Define The Scouting Program. Iknow we can all pull out a training manual and quote page and paragraph definitions. My question was prompted by the suggestion that; the Scouting Program was like art, I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it. Another forum member posted (Scouters) come in all shapes and sizes, but they all have the best interests of kids at heart. Some of them don't follow the program as published in the latest BSA training materials. Some of them wear uniforms that don't meet the current standards (especially true in Sea Scouting), and they don't all think the same way I do, but they have Scouting in their souls. My question is; When do we cross the line between providing the Scouting Program and being just a youth group? Without quoting a National BSA publication what constitutes or are examples of providing the Scouting Program. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Ive sat back and watched this thread develop waiting to see where it would go. Nldscout, WB new or old is a tool. I think the old course was more Scouting oriented and it prepared participants better to provide the Scouting Program than does the new course which is more team building and leadership oriented. Neither course produces Scouters, as SueM posted its the people not the course. I did notice your use of the terms other course and present course which are used in the New and Improved Woodbadge for the 21st. Century. I think referring to a training course with 90 plus years of tradition and results as the other course says something about the attitude of the designers of the current version. If we choose to pursue that discussion I would suggest spinning off another thread. evmori posts define following the program I think this should be spun off into another thread, and I think when finished here I will. Most agree that one of the traits of a Scouter is belief in the Scouting program( which we will define elsewhere). Can we agree that being a Scouter also requires that one live by the Oath and Law in their daily life or can you be a Scouter when around scouts and not a Scouter at other times and still be a Scouter? LongHaul