LongHaul

I loved Valley Forge but Farragut State Park was better.

TO: Selected Scouters FROM: James D. Stone(SE Chicago Area Council) DATE: March 29, 2006 Next week a hearing will be held on the lawsuit by the ACLU regarding blocking National Jamborees from being held on U.S. Military bases. If you would like to participate in a media briefing on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 at 1:00 p.m., please note the announcement below. Also, Scouters may desire to attend the hearing on Thursday, April 6, 2006 at 9:30 a.m. at the U.S. Court House located at 219 S. Dearborn Street, Chicago. The case is Winkler vs. Rumsfeld. Maureen F. EfnerExecutive Assistant Chicago Area Council Boy Scouts of America 1218 W. Adams Street Chicago, IL 60607-2802 (312) 421-8800, ext. 203 (312) 421-4726 (Fax) mefner@bsamail.org Will the ACLU kill the Boy Scout Jamboree? An invitation to a briefing on an important First Amendment appeal taking place in federal court in Chicago next week What: Media briefing about the ACLUb s lawsuit to block military support of the National Boy Scout Jamboree When: Wednesday, April 5 at 1 p.m. CST Where: Wildman Harrold 225 W. Wacker Drive, 30th Floor Chicago, IL 60606 Who: George A. Davidson Hughes Hubbard & Reed LLP National Counsel, Boy Scouts of America as amicus curiae William H. Hurd Troutman Sanders LLP Representing the Commonwealth of Virginia as amicus curiae Harold Johnson Pacific Legal Foundation as amicus curiae Background: In 2005, a federal district court in Chicago sided with the ACLU and ruled that the militaryb s support for the National Scout Jamboree b held once every four years at Fort A.P. Hill in Fredericksburg, Virginia is unconstitutional. The case is Winkler v. Rumsfeld, No. 05-3451 (7th Cir.). The ACLU's claim is that the Scout Oath's duty to God makes the Boy Scouts a religious organization, like a church, and that military support for the Jamboree violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. If the ruling stands, the military may not lend equipment or provide logistical support to the Jamboree, as it does for many other civic organizations. The Department of Defense appealed this decision to the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago. Oral arguments are now scheduled for Thursday, April 6 at 9:30 a.m. CST. For more info: Visit http://www.bsalegal.org/ There you will find background on the case including a podcast on the upcoming appeal and copies of the various legal briefs. Source: Boy Scouts of America Media Contact/RSVP: Bob Bork Media Adviser to Boy Scouts of America (703) 821-8008 office (202) 997-1317 mobile rbork@bork.com

SR540Beaver, Your story about the lost unit is indeed a sad one but what do you say about Councils that punish volunteers for trying to do something about program? You say its up to the volunteers to see that things get done on a council level. Not in Chicago it isnt. Chicago Area Council has almost no Council run program for Scout units. The Council run programs we do have are usually District programs that have been drawn under the Council umbrella so that professionals can tell their bosses that Council is running training, functions and the like. As for numbers representing youth being served I must ask that you define the Scouting movement because in CAC that means LFL more than Traditional scouting. It means Cub Scout Packs more than it means Traditional Scouting units. It means Venturing Crews and Explorer Posts more than it means Traditional Scouting units. The program which started the whole movement is getting the leftovers, when we are lucky, in CAC. As I have said in another thread there has been a systematic dismantling of the volunteer organization in CAC. Im bitter yes, I started in Scouting as Cub in 1957 and have 30 plus years as a registered Scouter. I took time off to get married and have children and didnt want to be registered but inactive. Ive watched Professional after Professional come and go. Ive watched as all of our camps have been sold or in the case of the Forest Preserve camps allowed to fall apart. Ive watched as funds were channeled to pet projects instead of program. The most current devastation began with a new SE who decided to divest CAC of all scout camps and bank the money. The first step was to dismantle the Districts and District Committees by reorganizing and redrawing our Districts. Maybe Atlanta does not look at race but Chicago does. Our Districts are White, Black, or Latino with boundaries so squiggly that its not a doubt how they were drawn. At the same time a Council committee was formed to assess the selling of the camps, surveys were done and camps listed for sale while the official word was No Decision has been made Council program has become none existent and training at Council level is District Hosted training with professional interference. Around here if you complain too loud or attract too much attention you are handed back your $10 and told to go to. Around here it takes a Court Order for the COs to get a voice, volunteers don't stand a chance unless they are "yes" people. LongHaul

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AnneinMpls, I don't think as much in terms of sq. footage as I do shoulder room. Sleeping bags generally run from 30 to 39 inches wide. A tent which allows less than the with of her sleeping bag per girl requires someone sleep against the side wall. That reduces the life of the tent, is colder when temps drop, and increases likelyhood of wet sleeping bags. Anarchist recommends no gear in tents, this is a good idea but then you must have somewhere to put said gear. You are either purchasing more tentage or tarps or pack covers etc. I don't have a one size fits all answer except that each girl needs at least 1 sleeping bag width of floor space. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Lisabob, From what you've said it sounds like your District(s) didn't do the training course advertised and you and everyone else should ask for a refund. The Troop Committee Challenge is a syllabused course that is to say there is a National format and content just like NLE or Woodbadge. If your "trainer" didn't have the TCC packet and materials then you didnt get what you signed up for. Many of the questions you went to training to get answered are addressed in the TCC course. As Evmori says this training is often done for single units. I act as trainer for this particular module and prefer to have more than one unit present to get more than one view point but have gone to single units. Ask if your District Training team has the TCC packet, it's provided by National in an accordion type binder. If not I'd definitely ask for my money back just to make the point. LongHaul

AnneinMpls Good Afternoon. The Osage 4s you are talking about have a fly which does not extent to the ground on the sides and has only an 8 overhang at the peaks front and back. The D door zipper will leak on the bottom if not seam sealed regularly. I say this because of the number of girls you are intending to put in each tent. With two girls in a 4 person tent they can stay away from sides and zipper (51" each) with three its tighter (34")each with four some one is actually under the seams on each side 25.5" each). Even though the Osage has a bath tub type floor being right up against the side of the tent is not ideal. If Mpls means Minneapolis you may need to plan for heavy rain at some time in the tents life. Even if each girl only had one small bag it would have to go at her foor or head because side to side there is no room left. With the prices you quoted I would suggest seeing if the girls would be willing to buy their own tents $60.50 for the Osage 4s split two ways would allow plenty of room per girl and youth tend to take better care of things they work for and own personally. LongHaul

My suggestions is consider the conditions in which you are going to use the tent. Rain flys are usually not waterproof they are water repellant. Water proof requires some kind of solid barrier such as the bath tub type floor tents. If the rain is heavy or constant the flys will start to leak. Flys with a barrier develop cracks in the barrier after exposure to sun and repeated folding, then they leak. Our troop went rafting one year in Northern Wisconsin and it rained non stop from Friday night to Monday morning. Every fly started to have drive thru as I call it where the rain would hit and penetrate as a spray onto the tent. The only tents that didnt leak were the old voyagers which are canvas. They dont have rain flys but we got some tent fabric nylon and treated it with repellent, we use these as a sun barrier because those tents get really hot in the summer. The added flys kept the rain from beating on the canvas and the spray just ran off. In the area Im from three day heavy rains is not common but in some places they are, a friend from Seattle says it rains 250 days out of the year. Water proof sleeping bags are good for 1 maybe 2 nights at best. They hold water in as well as out and the body moisture generated over night causes them to become wet inside just from use. Newer bags still retain their insulating value but your still wet. Bath tubs hold water as well as keep it out. On the campout I referred to earlier every one of our A frame nylons with the bath tub floors were indeed that, bath tubs, by morning. Having sponges or towels to help bail the water is really important. We didnt have them because the fly completely covers the tent and till then we never had a problem. Now we have large bath towels in the trailer for that purpose. LongHaul

The individual packet idea for many of the condiments is great as long as you have a place to store them. Our main storage for patrol boxes, and therefore condiments, is our troop trailer which sits in the CCs yard. It freezes in winter and bakes in summer, packets explode or are tainted because even though they have a half life not an expiration date they have a temperature range for storage. We have gone to a troop bottle of ketchup, mustard, pancake syrup (tried using individual servings from our Pancake Breakfast and ended up with the same result as Lisabobs ice cream). At the end of each campout these are put in one cooler and inventoried, when menus are made for the next campout the boys must check what is available before they buy more. LongHaul

I remember the type of Professional Scouter BrentAllen is talking about. We had them in Chicago Area Council at one time. I'm glad BrentAllens council still does have them. A past DE of mine was known to have more dinner meals at Scouters homes than with his wife because he was always here serving someone. Ive had DEs who could be taken at their word. When they said they would get you something or take care of something you could rely on them. Unfortunately Chicago Area Council is no longer home to the like of them. Our current Scout Executive upon taking office systematically replaced every professional with more than two years service. We have all new people who dont know us or we them, their knowledge of BSA program comes from a book. Those who were scouts as youth are soon made to chose between ideals and their job. Requests for materials go unanswered, I had to go out of council to purchase training materials because our staff Was having a hard time getting them from National Supply Our District Chairman are seen as adversaries rather than allies. To quote a former Asst Scout Exec. speaking to a veteran volunteer As knowledgeable and good, as you think you are. There are thousands of others sitting in the woods waiting to step in and take your place that will do what I want. To quote our Director of Camping This would be a lot easier if we could get rid of the volunteers Charters are inaccurate, training reports do not get filed, membership applications are repeatedly lost both youth and adult. The new professional staff is concerned with fund raising and forming new Cub Packs. Cub Packs which are promptly abandoned with nothing but promises. The systematic dismantling of the program since 2000 has been alarming and frightening. At times is seems that the Council is actually trying to eliminate traditional scouting units, in favor of Learning for Life programs. LongHaul

Just a bit on the Chicago Council issue. Three volunteers, Scouters with long service (Thirty years each in two cases) were suspended for publicly denouncing Executive Board actions. One of the suspensions has been made permanent, that for organizing a rally to protest Executive Board action. Eleven Scouters have banded together and taken the Council to court to force them to honor the by-laws. A judge has ruled that the by-laws were indeed not followed and that the Council President has breached his fiduciary responsibilities in refusing to schedule elections. In the [ast two years the voting members have voted NOT to accept the slate proposed. Finally the nominating committee came up with a slate but the president refused to accept it. By-laws state that special elections must be held when requested by at least 20% of the voting members, over 40% signed a petition demanding a vote on the proposed slate but the President refused to accept the petition. The judge has ruled that the Council must hold and election per the by laws, said election to take place on April 20, 2006. The Council has appealed this decision with the State Appellate Court in an attempt to stop the election until it, the current executive board, can alter the slate proposed by the nominating committee. That volunteers should have to take their council to court to get the council to follow its own by-laws should be red flag enough, but to have that council seeking court injunctions to allow it to violate the by laws using council monies and in objection to the voting members of that council should be a warning to all who value traditional scouting. National seems to be supporting liquidating assets to generate bank accounts even at the expense of program and in violation of local by-laws. LongHaul

Beavah, You hit the nail but didn't see it. You just said that the mothers civil rights trump the baby's civil rights. Ordinary civil liberties also would mean that no, we wouldn't make women take a pregnancy test before leaving the country, buying cigarettes or whatnot. We will not violate the mothers right to privacy to guarantee the childs right to life. Why can we invade the mothers right to privacy and the doctor /patient relationship to prevent suspected abortion however. If a doctor has knowledge that a crime is going to be committed that doctor must tell the police. Do we now report pregnancy just like gun shot wounds, after all we have a civil and moral obligation to protect the fetus. You say we can not make a woman take a pregnancy test before buying cigarettes or what not, how about the woman who is eight months pregnant, can we refuse to serve her alcohol? Can we be charged with child endangerment if we do? Can the new born sue any body who served it's mother alcohol while she was pregnant? If the pregnancy shows can she be charged with child endangerment for riding in a car seat belt or no. Are we committed to protecting the life of the unborn or not? Is this a question of protection of life or a question of making ourselves feel better by stopping someone else from doing something we dont like. Because if its protection of life then commit to protect that life regardless of the consequences. It is against the law to serve alcohol to people under 21 years of age in the State of Illinois. If a mother drinks alcohol while pregnant it gets to the fetus. I can test the mothers urine for alcohol and drugs to prevent her from operating a motor vehicle but I cant test for pregnancy to prevent her from harming a child? Your against capitol punishment which means youd be incarcerating pregnant mothers for seeking and abortion, doctors for performing abortions and making room for them how? We are already granting early release to rapists, child molesters, and violent criminals. You can use what ever funny spellings and implied accents you want but ordinary jurisprudence just isnt going to cut it. LongHaul

If we go with the life begins at conception view and say in-vitro fertilization is wrong because it results in the death of fertilized eggs then how do we address protecting fetus from smoking, drinking, reckless mothers? How do we determine if a woman is pregnant before we sell her cigarettes or alcohol? Its already law that if you serve a person and alcohol plays a part in that persons harm or that persons harming another then you can be held liable. How do we enforce such a law? Or do we only enforce it sometimes, a law of convenience or persecution? The woman who has money and leaves the country to get an abortion what about her? She transported a protected life out of the country with the intent of committing murder. Do we make every female take a pregnancy test before allowing her to leave the country? So many want to legislate myopically and ignore the full scope of the result of such legislation. If a person took a child out of the country without consent of that child, murdered it and then returned admitting murder would they be prosecuted? If we truly believe that every fertilized egg deserves a chance to live and are willing to pass laws to insure that protection we must decide punishment for breaking those laws. We must decide how we intend these laws to be enforced. If abortion was ruled murder would we advocate lethal injection for a woman who swallowed a morning after pill? How about if she took an RU pill after the test showed positive? How about the doctor who inserted a vacuum tube into the uterus and removed a 4 week old fetus. Again lethal injection? How about the doctor who inserted that vacuum tube into the soft spot of a 38 week old fetus and removed its brain tissue. My point is we seem to find it more appalling and requiring retribution the older the fetus gets, why?

When I was a scout our district held what we called "Show-N-Do"s. Troops would demonstrate and teach different skills. We had a large Sherwin Williams Paint factory in town and some one got them to donate a semi full of new paint cans. We used a can opener to make holes around the bottom of the can for air and punched holes with an awl about 2 inches above that. The holes were arranged in pairs about 2 inches and centered on the N S E W axis. Inserting wire clothes hangers into the holes produced a platform inside which looked like this (except straight) #. The troop had heavy screening which had been cut in circles designed to drop through the opening at the top. You put the paper in through the top, inset the screen and fill with charcoal. With the bottom still in place the ash would not fall out as with a chimney. We were able to start them on a table just by setting them on an inverted metal plate from the cook kit. The can handle, which at that time was affixed to the can with metal bushings not plastic, made it possible to move the stove with a pair of pot pliers. Add a wire grate on top so air can flow up and out and you have a table top charcoal stove. I finally lost mine when my wife decided she had to clean the garage and couldn't understand why I had a rusty old paint can with holes in it on the shelf.

As a society we still must decide when life begins as applicable under the law. If it is at conception then IUDs and the pill are murder just as clearly as partial birth abortions, they just dont look as bad. No one has touched the concept of how we protect the fetus from Mom drinking, smoking, using drugs, or taking risks that might endanger the fetus. Is it life or not? Is it entitled to protection under the law or not? Every time I hear someone say She can put it up for adoption I have to think about my wife. When my wife became pregnant with our first child she changed. I dont think anyone will argue with the notion that using drugs changes ones personality and alters the way a person interacts with others. Pregnancy does the same thing because the hormonal balance changes. The long and short of it is that I never got the woman I married back again. The pregnancy caused hemorrhoids which cause my wife considerable pain, it put a strain on her back which resulted in a herniated disc, again pain. My point here is that we chose to do this, and even chose to do it a second time. The woman who was raped had no choice. She was violated physically and emotionally. Now we would have her give up her personality and physical health because we value LIFE. As long as you are breathing its still life. My mother died of ovarian cancer. It was slow and painful. The last six months were spent in morphine therapy, gagging on the feeding tube and having waste pumped from her stomach because her GI tract had shut down. LIFE? I see a good deal of this debate being founded on the premise that we are sinners and must suffer to atone for something. Ending LIFE when it has stopped being a life is only for every other life form on this planet not us. We would never subject any other living thing to the torments and misery we subject humans to to preserve LIFE.

Paraffin is available at most major chain grocery stores. Cat food or tuna fish cans work best as they are a good size when ignited. Save the lid and use it as a flame control, covering and exposing amounts of the cardboard surface to regulate heat. I find that melting paraffin in the can first and then slowly inserting the rolled up cardboard is easier and safer than melting paraffin in a double boiler and pouring it over the cardboard. I set the cans on a cookie sheet and put them in the oven. Afterward lay solid paraffin pieces on the top of the cardboard and allow them to slowly melt into the roll in the oven to top off your fuel source. You mention foil packs as a lunch item, these are generally not cooked on tin can stoves, though I suppose you can. Another method is to use cedar shavings sold in pet shops in place of cardboard, I've used both. The tin can stoves will soot up and need to be handled carefully after they cool so as not to soil hands and clothing. Depending on how tight you roll the cardboard or pack the cedar chips, if you fill the can till paraffin levels come within a quarter inch of the rim the fuel source will last through several uses.

Someone posted these numbers not too long ago and though they were not exactly the same as the ones my council gave us at the Membership meeting they were close enought that it didn't matter. total Year Cubs Boy Scouts exp/ven traditional LFL 1991 2,145,870 988,270 367,262 3,501,402 648,257 total 4,149,659 1992 2,110,633 975,589 367,093 3,453,315 696,833 total 4,150,148 1993 2,067,279 979,192 380,903 3,427,374 737,799 total 4,165,173 1994 2,031,282 978,608 393,444 3,403,334 784,689 total 4,188,023 1995 2,063,547 989,343 407,905 3,460,795 837,407 total 4,298,202 1996 2,095,811 1,000,078 422,366 3,518,255 880,422 total 4,398,677 1997 2,152,387 1,016,383 455,268 3,624,038 949,850 total 4,573,888 1998 2,171,987 1,023,442 188,075 3,383,504 1,161,733 total 4,545,237 1999 2,181,013 1,028,353 202,486 3,411,852 1,373,615 total 4,785,467 2000 2,114,420 1,003,691 233,858 3,351,969 1,589,988 total 4,941,957 2001 2,043,478 1,005,592 276,434 3,325,504 1,697,701 total 5,023,205 2002 2,000,000 1,000,000 315,296 3,315,296 1,721,957 total 5,037,253 2003 1,914,425 997,398 288,395 3,200,218 1,555,226 total 4,755,444 2004 1,875,752 988,995 280,584 3,145,331 1,680,522 total 4,825,853

Someone posted these numbers not too long ago and though they were not exactly the same as the ones my council gave us at the Membership meeting they were close enought that it didn't matter. total Year Cubs Boy Scouts exp/ven traditional LFL 1991 2,145,870 988,270 367,262 3,501,402 648,257 total 4,149,659 1992 2,110,633 975,589 367,093 3,453,315 696,833 total 4,150,148 1993 2,067,279 979,192 380,903 3,427,374 737,799 total 4,165,173 1994 2,031,282 978,608 393,444 3,403,334 784,689 total 4,188,023 1995 2,063,547 989,343 407,905 3,460,795 837,407 total 4,298,202 1996 2,095,811 1,000,078 422,366 3,518,255 880,422 total 4,398,677 1997 2,152,387 1,016,383 455,268 3,624,038 949,850 total 4,573,888 1998 2,171,987 1,023,442 188,075 3,383,504 1,161,733 total 4,545,237 1999 2,181,013 1,028,353 202,486 3,411,852 1,373,615 total 4,785,467 2000 2,114,420 1,003,691 233,858 3,351,969 1,589,988 total 4,941,957 2001 2,043,478 1,005,592 276,434 3,325,504 1,697,701 total 5,023,205 2002 2,000,000 1,000,000 315,296 3,315,296 1,721,957 total 5,037,253 2003 1,914,425 997,398 288,395 3,200,218 1,555,226 total 4,755,444 2004 1,875,752 988,995 280,584 3,145,331 1,680,522 total 4,825,853

# 1 the program does not interest them. # 2 the parent force boy to chose one activity or the other. # 3 the parents get divorced or family moves away.

OGE, Which part of the objectives of a BOR as stated in the publication you keep referring to don't you understand. The objectives are bullet pointed where as your sentence is normal text. Which of the questions for Tenderfoot you sighted helps you determine whether the candidate can repeat the Oath, Law, motto, slogan, and knows what they mean? How about his patrol name? How can you in good faith attest to the fact that these skills have been learned and completed? As a member of the BOR you would have to sign the Advancement Report which states; To; Council Advancement Committee I certify that the following record of advancement is correct and that it meets the standards and requirements of the Boy Scouts of America,..... How can I possibly signify the procedures have been followed and requirements met if I never ask the boy about any of them? If he can tell me WHY we whip or fuse the ends of a rope I can sign off that he has learned HOW to whip and fuse the ends of a rope? IMO National has become more concerned with advancement than skill acquisition. National wants boys to stay in the program so we make it easier. Six out of the seven Mercury Astronauts had scouting backgrounds. The first American to orbit the planet is an Eagle Scout. The first human to set foot on the Moon is an Eagle Scout. I do not see this as coincidence! I see it as a testimony to the quality of the program which produced those men. LongHaul

SWScouter, The progress review was part of the Boy Power phase when National tried revamping the program to make it more urban. circa 1976 OGE, Still not sure why you focus on one line and exclude others and claim faithfulness to the program. As for troop program I know you are not trying to say that because a troop program is heavy on map and compass that a BOR can take as a given that any boy coming before them is proficient in map and compass. I can offer any opportunity I want it doesn't mean the boys will take advantage of it. I can cut all the slip adjusters off our tents and require the boys to tie taught line hitches instead. This will not assure that every scout remains proficient at tying the taught line hitch. If the intent was to rely on the troop program to insure quality then why exclude the adults that are familiar with the boys participation in that program from the BOR. The BOR is not supposed to rely on the program it is supposed to satisfy itself that all the requirements have been met and that the boy has met those requirements in the proper way. How can we have checks and balance if we rely on the validity of what we are checking instead of checking. If all the BOR is supposed to make sure that all the requirements have been checked off and initialed then that is what the instruction should be. When it says make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank or make sure that the work has been learned and completed then that is what The BOR should do. If you Ask a Scout to explain how he interperates the part of the Scout Oath which requires duty to country are you retesting him on his First Class requirement where he talked with someone about his obligations as a US citizen. Does asking him when he would use a bowline qualify as retesting the section which asked him to describe several uses for the knot? Is asking the scout what he cooked a retest on make a menu? If I ask him how he cooked it is that the same as describe the pots and utensils needed? If I ask him what animals he saw on a campout is that a retest or do I need to ask him to identify ten to be in trouble. The SM asked the boy questions to determine if the SM should sign off on Scout Spirit. How can the BOR then ask questions to determine Scout Spirit and not be retesting? Or is Scout Spirit off limits in a BOR? Is asking the boy what patrol he is in the same as T #8 Know you patrol name. If we are to religiously avoid asking anything which is asked as requirement or covered in the requirements such as retesting for Scout Spirit why have a BOR at all? LongHaul

OGE, You are correct the word Guidebook does not appear in or on the publication to which you refer. If it is your position that BSA POLICY must be adhered to in all cases the how do we treat the statement that A badge is recognition of what a young person is able to do, not merely a reward for what he has done. Page 3(this is in bold face type where as the no retest clause isn't wonder why?). A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done page 21. In referring to the objectives of a BOR it states that those objectives should include; To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank page 26. To make sure that the work has been learned and completed page 27. The compliance with these policies would be easier if the line The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. didnt appear, but it does. How am I as a member of a BOR to comply with the first policies and guarantee the quality and accuracy of the work done in light of the final restriction. I would almost have to find circuitous and convoluted routes to determine whether these skills were indeed learned. As the program encourages First Class in the First year I would be dealing with an 11 year old while I try and carefully word my inquiries as to knot tying and camping skills so as not to give the impression that it is a retest. This would help the boy considerably later in life when he wanted to do something that maybe was in a gray area but he wanted everyone to think he was on the up and up, bending the rules with plausible deniability as it were. You read not a retest to mean no asking the boy to tie a knot I see it as not going one by one down the requirements list. One would think that if these were caved in stone policies not to be ignored National would make them clear or at least not reword them between pages 26 and 27 of the same text as it has done with the objectives of a BOR. You mention the line about the uniform being as complete as possible, what about the NEW Training module put out by National after the publication on advancement policy which states "A board can expect a Scout to be neat in appearance and properly uniformed" to operative term changes from complete as possible to properly. Who now decides the definition of properly, the board, the PLC, the TC, the CO? Should we just ignor the NEW Training module becasue it isn't in the printed publication with the proper title? In checking the threads on what a SM should do with a Blue Card signed as complete by an approved MBC when the SM knows without doubt the requirements were not in fact met you chose to remain silent. Care to tell us what you would do as a member of the BOR if you knew one of the merit badges being used for advancement was awarded in violation of published BSA policy? How do you meet the objectives of the BOR. Which publication should we use to determine which sentence in a publication to use when different sentences within the same publication conflict? LongHaul

Ed, I appologize. There should have been smiley faces ALL over my post on 3/19. I thought I had finally figured out how to insert them and was trying to be funny with the Woodbadge thing. I should have checked the post and edited or deleated it but I didn't. LongHaul(insert egg on face)

CA Scouter, As anarchist says it all depends on what you want to do with it and how many you want to feed per stove. I own MSR WhisperLite Internationals which with different orifices will burn just about anything. They have a shaker valve which keeps the orifice clean and eliminates clogging. But if you want speed in heating things up as anarchist says the Dragon Fly is a blow torch with a simmer control. Put the two stoves side by side and the dragon fly sounds like an airplane engine. Which ever you chose if your going to have scouts use them I advise getting the base for them. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Makeitfun, OK I'll take the bait. In my area we call what you do "Teaching the Test" You decide what you want them to retain and you tell them that and then test them on their retention of what you told them you were going to test them on. At mid term and final you do the same. for BSA the "test" is printed in the requirements book right up front. The Scouting experience is designed to teach many things and is delivered in many ways if different areas but the test is standard. If a BOR denies advancement solely because a scout couldn't tie one knot then I would question the priorities of the BOR. If you gave a final and a student got lest than 75% of the questions correct would he pass the final? The BOR is the final. I know what the publications say as to what is policy I ask what is fair. Asking a boy about his uniform when you are not wearing one? Asking a boy how he lives up to the Scout Oath without answering the same question yourself? Asking him what good turn he did that day without telling him what yours was? At least if you ask him to tie a bowline and he can he we will know if you know what a bowline looks like when he hands you back the rope. LongHaul