LongHaul

BrentAllen, As I have said before if you were an Iraqi we would be fighting you. We are fighting Iraqis with your mind set. They are fighting against an invader. They are fighting against an oppressor. To many people just can't accept that and prefer to see conspiracy and aggressor in every people America makes into a foe. We are fighting people who believe their leaders just like you believe yours BrentAllen. I'm of the Viet Nam era and still have to ask "If what we wanted to provide was SO darn great why did we have to kill a million people before we accepted that 'they' didn't want it?" They were all brain washed but none of us could possibly have been wrong. Who are we fighting in Iraq? People we have alienated. People we have angered with our arrogance and self righteousness. People defending their way of life. America always points to the aid and improvements we have provided. Tearing down your house and building you a duplex is only a good thing if you wanted to live in a duplex. If you liked your house and wanted to keep it then you should have a right to be angry. "Wars never end because when we are finished here they will take it on the road" Hawkeye Pierce Mash 4077 As long as America refuses to accept that not everyone wants to be us, America will have enemies. Technology has merely allowed them to fight back. LongHaul

Hear the loud clapping? CA-Scouter right on! This is a boy run organization. The hardest thing for us adults to do is give the boys the helm. If the SPL, the PLC, and the specific Star Scout in question are not capable of taking on the responsibility of MCing the ECOH then what kind of Eagles is this troop turning out? Unless there is a specific problem with this particular Star Scout there shouldnt be a problem. The flip side of this is when the Adult hands the Ceremony, all typed up and for the first time, to the Star Scout at the ECOH and calls it boy run. LongHaul

Scoutnut, What is the problem with teaching the patrol method to Webelos? If you call it a den or you call it a patrol has no bearing on what is being taught. I fully agree that Webelos are not Boy Scouts and should not be treated as Boy Scouts and that age appropriate guide lines are to be maintained. Don't rush the boys, let them be Webelos Scouts now and Boy Scouts when their time comes. The patrol method however is a concept, a group dynamic, not a property of the Boy Scout Program. Venturing uses it, Exploring uses it, I'd say Ships use it in one form or another. Teaching the Webelos I DEN to begin thinking of themselves as a single unit and not 8 individuals grouped together is part of the Webelos Program. Only because we are such sticklers for exact wording and detail I point this out. You go one to say that Webelos "are NOT to camp without parents." I think if you read the GTSS carefully you'll see that not necessarily the case. A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. It's recommended that there be a one to one relationship between adult and scout but It's not a rule. The rule is 1 to 5 with each scout being the specific responsibility of a specific adult. In that case I should know where my five boys are at all times, and would be in a position of adult supervisor to all the other boys as well. So many rules are written to allow for the exception and so that we dont have to deny participation to any scout but we can if we choose. LongHaul

I've made my suggestions already, what I'd like to do now is comment on some of the other advice. First Question is why are we doing any of the Scout stuff? If it's "for the boys" as we all like to say, then how can it be "inappropriate" for ANY troop or group of scouts to provide a meaningful ceremony to recognize another individual or group of Scouts? Troop B has been asked to do a ceremony, they are not taking something away from Troop A or invading anyone's territory. Whats in it for me isnt part of the Oath or Law that I know of. As to being taken advantage of, come on, we only do this for one hour a week how can we be taken advantage of in that short span of time? If you feel that providing a meaningful experience to a child, simply because no one else is going to, is being taken advantage of, Scouting is probably not the place for you. Unfortunately those in adult uniforms are not fearful of someone taking their job away, for the most part we do a lot of things because no one else is coming forward. If troop B chooses not to do the crossover ceremony it sounds as if the boys won't get a ceremony. If troop B does the ceremony they will be exemplifying 5 of the 12 points of the Scout Law in one act. I do not find fault with saying no to the request, Im having trouble with the reasons given for saying no. LongHaul

MaScout, Let me table another option. Knock their socks off with the crossover. Do the summer outings and work with the Webelos on their AOL. Then tell them that when they are tired of promises from Troop A that Troop B will be waiting with open arms. LongHaul

I'm going to leave scoutldr's post alone because not every Council is like Chicago Area and getting the DE involved at this stage may actually be a good idea in some councils. John-in-KC advises selling the Yacht Club on Scouting by letting the yacht club know what's in it for them. My question is why should CNYScouter sell the yacht club? What's in it for the Ship? To me that's the real decision. Once The decision is made as to what the Ship wants from the CO, what the Ship needs from the CO, then the CNYScouter can decide which CO best addresses or can address the Ship's needs. The objective as I see it should be to create a solid foundation and support structure for the Ship not the CO. LongHaul

CNYScouter, You include as part of the description of "the organization" that they didn't seem very interested. That carries a lot of weight with me. What does the Ship need from it's CO other than it being a CO to allow the Ship to exist? What would the Ship like from the CO other than it being a Co to allow the Ship to exist. Having access to water craft may outweigh having the CO provide a place to meet etc. Knowing that the CO will continue to charter and support the Ship in years to come may be the most important. If they are not interested in promoting the Scouting program you might want better. LongHaul

Back when Chicago Area Council had 8, yes eight, council camps we had corrugated culvert sections at some camps for this purpose. Hauling them around would require a lot of trailer space but using them was an art. The meat dish would go on the bottom with the major amount of coals going on the top of the oven. The middle dish was high in liquid such as soup or a vegetable which was held off the bottom of the oven on a rack and baked, such as squash or potatoes. This dish had major coals from the bottom and few on the top. The desert would go top of the stack and the heat funneling up the sides would slow bake it. We called them "set it and forget it" meals. Using pliers you would slightly lift the culvert after a while and slip in a few more coals under the bottom oven to maintain heat but that was about it. I miss those days. LongHaul

Kenk, I see youre from NE Illinois, I'm out of Chicago so I'll add a few things to what has been said. If it's cold and your D.O. is cold heat it slowly if you use a gas stove. In winter the base will expand faster than the sides and cause stress fractures. If you have an aluminum D.O. remember it can melt if you use red oak or some of the other high temp hard woods in our area, cast iron just gets red! I personally don't like oil, I prefer Crisco. Anybody else ever use a corrugated culvert slipped over several D.O.s stacked up? LongHaul

I'd just like to say that my troop has absolutly NO Silly camp rules. As Scoutmaster I would know. LongHaul

This topic is very dear to my heart. As a 1st time camper I looked forward to the "Bathing Beauty Contest" held each week at camp. Those secure enough in their manhood would don the bikini and citrus fruit of choice bathing cap and rough and strut the pier to the hoots and hollers of the camp. I swear I have 8mm footage taken by my father, it's hilarious. This practice was discontinued my second year much to the disappointment of the boys. As a competitive swimmer all during my Scouting days I would always wear my team colors (Speedo) as would the other swimmers. We had heavier suits used by divers for guard duty because they didn't snag as easily on the perch or row boat. As a Scoutmaster I usually wear spandex which comes down to mid calf but any bunchiness would still be noticeable I guess, never really thought about it....except.....one summer a college student of the female persuasion was hired to run our sailing base. Being a competitive swimmer, gymnast, and very long in the leg she filled out her suit to the distraction of many of the adult males. Said suit was of the one piece variety and looked like something my mother would have worn in the 50's, it was not spandex or any other skin tight fabric. She still caused a stir and ended up be asked not to return. Today we hire girls who wear much tighter and more revealing, due to the form fittedness, suits without problems. LongHaul

Jr56, This has been an ongoing struggle since CAC hired a new SE. In case you dont know the SE has to be selected from a list National provides. The first thing our new SE did was to form a committee to study the "need" for CAC to own real estate for camping purposes. The second thing he did was to re district the entire Council. All the old established district committees and groups were broken up and realigned. While the new districts were shaking hands and getting to know who was who and repopulating all the District committees and Commissioner Staffs our camps were listed for sale. One camp was sold and the other is sold pending rezoning. (See Council Relations :Goodbye Owasippe) Next all the profesional staff were either dismissed or reasigned. Almost all of CAC's profesional staff is entry level. They do not understand the needs of our members and the program to be delivered. Those with scouting experience are so over loaded they are infear of their jobs. The Executive Board controlled the nominating committee so the people predisposed to selling the camps were kept on the board. The result was a total division of the volunteer base along lines of pro sale, anti sale, and apathy. Council program ground to a halt as did council run training. National was contacted and we were told it was a local matter to be decided by our Executive Board. The volunteers got the vote out and voted down the slate proposed by the Board. The Board promptly re wrote the by laws allowing the Board the right to approve the slate if it is voted down by the CORs and MALs TWICE. They slated people unacceptable to the majority of the CORs and MALs and refused to alter the slate when it was voted down a second time the Executive Board approved the slate and have not had an election approved by the CORs or MALs in 3 years. When a compromise was reached as to who was to make up the nominating committee a slate was agreed upon but the President refused to accept it. It has taken legal action in civil court to force the Executive Board to follow the by laws. National still maintains that it is a local issue. Should a vote be held and the current Executive Board unseated it will be interesting to see if it remains a local issue when attempts to sell our remaining camp are revisited by the new Board and monies made form the sale of our local camp are targeted for use to save Owasippe, our one remaining camp. The impression many of us in CAC have from National is that National wants to do away with traditional scouting in the larger urban areas and focus on Cub Scouts, Venturing, Exploring and concentrate on the LFL program. Numbers, without Council programs, with limited advancement records, and smaller support staffs. Its a business decision. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

I hope everyone had a rewarding weekend. I would like to continue the original topic of when and how employ W2ST. I am by no means an expert and National does not have any formal training material on this. We have different publications and many contradict each other especially on when to target crossovers. I would like to gather opinions and experiences to take back to my Council in hopes of improving our W2ST program. First let me say that crossover percentages are not indicators of a successful W2ST program. When we elect a new president in November we know we will have a new administration, the transition between the old administration and the new administration is not graded on whether the new administration takes over on January 20th, but rather the smoothness with which the change is incorporated into the functioning of the government. That they cross over does not indicate that they have changed their mind set or personal view point on Scouting. A successful W2ST program can be more accurately judged on the number of scouts remaining in Scouting after the first or second year. Did the Webelos Scout cross over into the right troop for him? Did he understand the differences he would be encountering? Did his Activity Pin program help prepare him for the Merit Badge program in Scouting? Was the change from parental testing to troop leader testing made in a way that helped the boy become comfortable presenting himself for testing, rather than being sought out for testing. Acco40 suggests we tailor or approach, to me that would be like saying if the majority of my students didnt seem interested in college I should just forget the classes intended for that continuation of education. Who uses algebra? What good does English Lit do the average person who does not intend to read for enjoyment? Why read when we have DVDs? The reason the Webelos program was introduced in 1952 was to help the Cub Scout adjust to becoming a Boy Scout. The Leader training introduced in 1959 helped spell out that goal. If there is a Webelos Leader whos goal is other than 100% crossover how can that person be said to be delivering the program? How can a Pack justify allowing a Webelos Program that doesnt embrace the purpose of the Webelos Program which is to prepare Cub Scouts to become Boy Scouts? Mbscoutmom first says that going from Bear to Webelos is enough without looking all the way forward to Boy Scouts and then repeats what I originally said, that the Webelos Program should slowly over 20 months transition the boys thinking. Mbscoutmom, was it the April meeting with the parents as Bears that you objected to Im not clear. When you refer to two non-family outings a year, were you saying that the first year outings should be den outings and the second year outings den/troop outings? Again I didnt understand. MarkSs reference to the Disappearing packet caused me to focus on the difference between transitioning Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts by means of the Webelos Program and crossing Webelos Scouts over into Boy Scouts. I see the focus of the Disappearing packet, which we use in Chicago Area council as well, as being less with transitioning the boy and more with retaining the membership. Im looking for insight into transitioning the boy from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts using the Webelos Program and as a separate focus how to co ordinate a successful crossover from Webelos to Boy Scouts. Im try8ing to get ideas to strengthen our program and teach those coming for training. LongHaul

One thing I have not seen mentioned here in relation to Cub Scout/Webelos according to the GTSS Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities all the water craft related activities must be done at Council or District Activities which would necessitate BSA qualified Aquatic personnel to be in charge. Short version is you can't do any of this as a Pack. Quote from #6 Safety Afloat found in the GTSS "For Cub Scouts:Canoeing, kayaking, rowing, and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) are to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing and kayaking, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices." LongHaul

Ed, The case jkhny is referring to has been discussed in detail in the council relations section. The executive Board of Chicago Area Council has for all intents and purposes subverted the local bylaws and voted themselves "Executive Board for Life". They have amended the bylaws, without COR or MAL approval, to allow the executive Board to re-elect itself. The Executive Board has not been elected by the COR and MAL voters since 2003. Eleven dedicated Scouters saw the need to file suit to return control to the voters, so to speak. Hearings have been on going for about 6 months and an Election was ordered by Judge Martin Agran to be held Thursday April 20. The Executive Board has challenged this ruling with an appeal filed in the Appellate Court that hearing to be held Thursday April 20 at 11:00 am. Which means the CORs and MALs will have to plan on attending a meeting at 6pm to vote on the proposed slate BUT that vote may be stayed by an Appellate ruling that same morning. It's really a shame that this is being allowed to happen within the BSA. LongHaul P.S. The Democratic Process my not be in a BSA publication for Leaders but it is part of the standard set of Council by laws which Chicago Area Councils Board has been found to be in violation of. (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

VinceC, Id suggest caution before you possibly alienate your current CO. Be sure you have a solid commitment from the other church to charter your Pack before you burn any bridges. My town had 5 Packs when the district appointed a new unit commissioner. After being informed of the national agreement Lisabob spoke of, one CO terminated the charter and asked that all monies and equipment be turned over to it. Another CO flat out asked its Pack to leave. Today we have only two packs left, both chartered by the same CO. When the status quo has been allowed to deteriorate into a state of non communication suddenly having the lights turned on may not result in the outcome you desire. Different Councils do things differently and not all unit commissioners are competent. Before asking the Pack Committee to contemplate a move I think you should find out if your Council will transfer your unit number and tenure and will your current CO allow you to take any monies and goods with you. Be Prepared,(read that somewhere sounds like good advice) LongHaul

In reading another thread titled District Indecision I came across this; as the Webelos II leader, I recently sent out requests for a list of local Boy Scout troops and contact names so I can begin to schedule visits and interactions in our area. I tried spinning off this thread but couldnt so thought Id reference it . As Webelos to Scout Transition Coordinator for my district I was shocked to find out how many Leaders believe that W2ST begins at Webelos II. I was taught back in 89 that the entire Webelos program is a transition program designed to, slowly over a period of 20 months, move the boys thinking from Cub Scout mode to Boy Scout mode. We were told that W2ST started in April as a Bear Den with a meeting between the boys, parents and representatives of a Boy Scout troop. The meeting was to be chaired by the current Webelos I Den Leader and the purpose was to explain the Webelos Program to the boys and their parents. The troop representatives were there to show what the end result will be and to explain the hopeful inter action between the Webelos Den and the Troop. Parent surveys are handed out and activity pin counselors are recruited. This way in June when these boys become a Webelos I den they are ready to start the transition. What I find however is a belief that, as the Den Leader in my quote implies, transition starts in September of the Webelos II phase and goes into full gear in October allowing only a few months of interaction between den and troop. My question to the forum is two fold; First, when do you think W2ST should begin? Second, what steps are taken to achieve this transition? LongHaul

You people are having too much fun! I want in. What the heck are you talking about? Knock Knock Let me in. LongHaul

Don't know how this ended up getting posted twice but I've been given the password to the emoticon vault.http://www.scouter.com/forums/faq.asp#smilies Thanks again SWScouter.

Thank you SWScouter

Not being a computer person I can't for the life of me figure out how to get emoticons for this forum. I have them on my personal email and use them about once a year. Here where I could use them to clarify or add a dimension to my posts I'm at a loss. Please someone point me in the right direction. LongHaul

Not being a computer person I can't for the life of me figure out how to get emoticons for this forum. I have them on my personal email and use them about once a year. Here where I could use them to clarify or add a dimension to my posts I'm at a loss. Please someone point me in the right direction. LongHaul

Rooster7, I am sorry you feel the need to seperate your beliefs, knowledge and opinions from these forums. I don't know if trying to convince you to hold off "burning any bridges" is the right thing to do, if you need to leave to have peace then you should leave. You added to these forums more than you probably realize, you will be missed. LongHaul

Rooster7, Who among us could be considered not one of Gods children if he did indeed create us all? Are there humans on this planet not of Gods doing? Just because my children defy me and dishonor me they are none the less my children. LongHaul

Rooster7, Fine, that's how I was raised, but as I've grown and since I've become a parent myself I find that I question the "died for our sins" concept and lean toward "was willing to die on the cross to show us the way" philosophy and the "wrath" part doesn't fit with the God the Father image. My kids have disappointed and down right hurt me on occasion but I love them none the less. I turn a deaf ear when they ask for help out of a jam due to lazyness on thier part but would never allow real harm or need to occur. The God I pray to does not condem his creation we condem each other. LongHaul