LongHaul

WDleader, The Baloo sylabus I recieved from National Supply five months ago is #34163A with revision date 2002. LongHaul

ccjj, As Webelos Transition Coordinator I find that mind set more than I'd like. Waiting until the end of the Webelos II year to introduce the Den to the Troop is not "transitioning". The environment you describe is one of the leading factors for boys dropping out of Scouting in the first year. One they are not being made to feel that the Troop really wants them and is anticipating their joining. Two they are not being made to feel that they, the Webelos Den, have made a place for themselves in this troop. Three the New Scouts are not seen as recruits but as draftees. The Troop does not feel they must attract new scouts but that the Troop is entitled to these New Scouts which sets a tone with the existing members of the troop, in many cases. If I were the WDL I'd go with the Troop that sent me the Den Chiefs (positive leadership training) and the Troop that was willing to interact with my Den over the 20 months of the Webelos Program. LongHaul

CNYScouter, WOW! You ask tough questions, what are you an educator? Unraveling your question isn't as easy as it should be. Starting with the CO; the CO either applies to charter a Ship or a Crew that is written out on the Charter application. Yes they could apply to charter a Crew and still use the Sea Scout Advancement IN SOME COUNCILS. The difference is whether your Council has a specific Sea Scouting Professional Advisor. The Program to be delivered is up to the CO as with any Scout Unit, the CO sets the guidelines. Because this is a new unit, it would make the most sense if the CO chose the Program the Youth wanted to participate in but they don't actually have to, a local Yacht Club may look upon a Sea Scout Ship differently than a Venturing Crew. Now lets look at the third part of your question which dealt with the adults working with the youth. You asked; So, who makes the decision to use the Sea Scout Program? The CO, the adults putting it together, the youth, a combination of these? The decision on which program is the CO's, the decision to participate is the youth's. The adults are there to advise both the CO and the youth but should not have a vote. When the adults develop a vision of what the adults want the program to be, the adults often assume the leadership/directorial roles to make that vision a reality. Boy run takes time, it's also harder to achieve if the boys are used to adult run. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

MaScout, The requirements in Sea Scouts are a little more specific than in Boy Scouts. The requirement is to attend 75% of your ship's meetings and special activities for...... So unless you consider summer camp to be a special ship activity it wouldn't count. The requirement does not say be active with your ship it says attend 75% for your ships meetings and special activities. Actually it depends on how many meetings a week or month the ship has. The scout would not be able to blaze through advancements one right after another but would have ample opportunity to advance even with summer camp and football/sports. LongHaul

The CPR Switch skit we do goes like this. Two scouts are walking along and come upon a scout holding his chest and hardly breathing. The distressed scout collapse and the other two begin CPR and mouth to mouth resuscitation. After about two compression and breath cycles the scout giving compressions says in cadence with his compressions; I'M GETTING TIRED LET'S SWITCH ALRIGHT (compression) (compression) (compression) READY ON THREE (compression) ONE TWO THREE at this point all three scouts change places. The distressed scout gets up and the scout that was doing compressions lies down. The scout that was distressed begins doing mouth to mouth and the scout that was doing mouth to mouth begins doing the chest compressions on the now prone scout. LongHaul

Beavah, So even though the boy has completed his POR requirement you feel it would be appropriate to make him re do it in the Ship. The whole 6 months or just part? How about the tenure, but I guess if he has to redo the POR then he'd automatically redo the 6 months active. Would you accept all his merit badges of would he have to redo some of those too? A scout is trustworthy but Scouters are another thing eh? If a boy transfers to you troop from another troop does he have to redo all ranks or just the parts he has completed for the current rank he is working on? LongHaul

CNYScouter, I am not a Venturing Crew advisor, nor do I play one on TV. According to the Advancement Policies and Procedures as long as a boy has received First Class Rank while registered with a troop he can continue to work toward Eagle Rank while in a Venturing Crew. The requirements are the same. As to the POR question, once the requirement is fulfilled a scout should not be required to re do the requirement because he changes units. If the POR has been satisfied, it has been satisfied. As to question 2, the requirements for advancement within a Venturing Crew for Venturing Rank, the requirement for Ordinary, Able or Quartermaster stipulate a 75% attendance. This can not be waived or altered anymore than any other requirement. As for guaranteed continual participation I dont know of anyway to achieve that. If you give them a program that appeals to them they will make time for other things but they will be Sea Scouts, its their choice. LongHaul

As John-In-KC says it's a "YP" thing but it is also a Risk Management thing. Adult leaders at the unit level are the responsibility of the CO. Adult leaders registered outside a CO Chartered unit are the responsibility of the Council. Whether or not the background checks are actually done is another question but annual applications are required. When a unit re charters, the CO is supposed to reassess the acceptability of all the adult leaders in it's units and the COR then either accepts the rechartering of these individuals or strikes them from the charter. The Council is required to do the same "re-evaluation" of adults registered thru the Council and annual adult apps seems to be the most effective way to approach this. LongHaul

Webelos Camp! Webelos I and Webelos II. I also teach WLS and OLSWL and teach that camping with a troop should begin with the Webelos I program. I encourage the Webelos Leaders to camp with more than one troop over the course of the Webelos I program so the boys can see the difference in troop programs available to them. I know many troops feel that a Webelos Den is their "feeder" den and all the boys should be graduated into their troop but this is supposed to be about the boys not the units. Allowing the boy to find the program he likes and will stay with IMO is the important thing. In the Webelos II program you would concentrate joint activities with the troop most of the den wants to cross into. Camping with different troops and having more than one campout under their belt helps the boys to transition smoothly. As MsScout points out the campout should be geared to or for the Webelos Scouts and not an event where the Webelos are either doing Boy Scout level activities or are just spectators without a program for them. Dont rush the Webelos but dont wait till its crunch time. LongHaul

Try www.macscouter.com/songs my boys tend to lean toward the gross lists 1 and 2 LongHaul

Vicki, My response was to the supposition that "it would be resolved in the boy's favor". If National said NO! and you thought the boy should get the rank then what? My statement was that you could get a badge and give it to him but it would not be registered at National. I think "death bed" Eagles are more common then a lot of people think. With the way our council makes mistakes in data entry I can't believe this doesn't happen and that is why we are told to make sure we don't end up in a position where we have to argue about dates. It's hard enough when it's clerical error without getting into interpretation. LongHaul

Hunt, We both know you can count and that is why you picked the August 30 date for the BOR. 182 days in grade would require the next BOR to be March 2. Saying that it would be resolved in the boys favor requires belief that National would use common sense which is often an oxymoron in the Corporate World. We are not dealing with human beings here we are dealing with software. If the computer will not print out an Eagle Certificate it will not print out an Eagle certificate. You can award the badge but it still won't be registered at National. We can speculate all we want it will not change the computer software and we are just speculating on what each of us thinks not what anyone knows for sure. I'm surprised no one out there has had a personal experience with this. With the number of Eagles awarded and the human error factor in entering data someone has to have crossed this problem since Scout Net went into effect. LongHaul

Hunt, According to what I've been told you can't straighten it out because the computer program simply will not accept the correction. The program will not accept two BOR dates for the same rank for the same boy and will not delete a BOR that has been already entered. We've been advised not to take the chance and use the 182 days as opposed to "six months". If you use TroopMaster it has the same programming, 182 days equals six months, except that you can change dates, but you can't get the program to accept advancement with only 181 days in rank or for POR. Supposedly Scout Net can't be altered to prevent someone from changing something in error. I'm not a programmer and don't know the ins and outs but I do know that the new program will not allow us to do things we used to be able to do with our old program. LongHaul

Scout Net is not a tool for troop use it is the name of the soft wear National uses to record registration and advancement. According to what I've been told by my council the soft wear does not recognize "six months", it was written to recognize 182 days as the equivalent of six months and that is the way it counts tenure. The soft wear can not be altered by those using it and National isnt going to do a rewrite. Unless you get confirmation from National in writing I for one would not risk a scout's Eagle application being refused for failure to have enough time in grade to qualify for advancement. If the scout didn't have "six months ", according to Scout Net, as a Star Scout then when he applies for Eagle Scout Net will at that point refuse advancement because Life was not earned properly. If the boy has time to reapply fine but if he doesnt have another six months he will age out. Rather be safe than angry. LongHaul

Bill, Could be normal for your troop. There is a thing called the New Scout Patrol which is designed to prevent the exact scenario you describe. Its not used by all troops and apparently not by yours. In troops using the NSP method patrol leaders are often rotated until each member has a chance to fill the position and experience the responsibilities. After that a permanent PL is elected. To answer your initial question Id have to know more about how your troop is run. Who decided the make up of the patrols the PLC or an adult or group of adults? If your son is to remain a member of his current patrol for an extended period he may never get to be PL . LongHaul

In reading this thread I noted that no one commented on the fact that the Scoutmaster's Key no longer exists. It's now a Scouter's Key and can be earned by Scoutmasters, Varsity Coaches, Venturing Crew Advisors, Skippers, District Committee members, and Commissioners. http://usscouts.org/awards/scouterkey.html Each wears a particular device denoting program area in which the award was earned. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Ed, That was my point exactly 23 updates of which 3 were actual changes in policy. Whitewater safety was a complete rewrite and the regualtions for Venturing Program use of fire arms was changed significantly, the first change listed had gone into effect on Jan 1, 2006 and was a change in policy, other than those three the other changes IMO were totally unnecessary and a waste of time and money. It seems that wording was changed to justify expense of having a Risk Management Firm look the thing over, which was the reason given for the rewrite. I just don't see how the rewording changes the risk factor or clarifies anything. LongHaul Four if we count the part about Tiger Cubs NOT having pocket knives(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

I'm posting this in Issues and Politics becsue I think it is one and involves the other. In a thread in the Cub Scout section Scoutnut posted a link to the changes in the GTSS. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gssay.html I pointed out that the on line version had not been actually updated and was in fact still the same as #34416E. Well it turns out we were both right! The on line version has been updated but not all the changes have been made, maybe its a human error. I picked up a copy of the new GTSS #34416 the letter denoting revision has been dropped again. In comparing the #34416E edition (yellow cover)with the new #34416 edition (red cover) I have to ask why National had to hire anyone to make these changes at all. The link which is provided on the cover of the new edition, which is bright red, is the same link Scoutnut provided us and describes three pages of changes. This UPDATE appendix says ; Aquatics Safety: Safety Afloat The content of this entire section was replaced with new copy from item 34368B (2006 printing). Updated: 1 Mar 2006 The text in the new version( red cover) is exactly the same as the old version.(yellow cover) except for five (5) words which have been deleted. The text is over four columns in length and deleting five words constitutes this entire section was replaced? Under Safe Swim Defense section three they swapped phrases!! Where it used to say deep water not more that 12 feet its been changed to deep water not over 12 feet AND where it used to say deep water not over 12 feet now it says deep water not more that 12 feet We paid for this! Look at the link Scoutnut provided and read the extent of the changes made and ask yourself if ONE this was necessary at all. TWO, why did we have to order a complete new printing. THREE, how much did we have to pay to have a RISK Management Firm come up with these changes? Aquatics Safety: Classification of Swimming Ability The "Swimmer test" was completely reworded. (Only the wording, not the requirements themselves, was altered.) Updated: 5 Apr 2006 Under "Swimming Ability", the phrase "Jump feetfirst into water over the head in depth, level off, and begin swimming." was changed to "Jump feetfirst into water over your head" Again dropping five (5) words qualifies as having been completely reworded? What does any of this have to do with RISK Management anyway? Other than the American Whitewater Safety Guidelines and the revelation that maybe 7 year olds shouldnt be allowed to use/carry pocket knives I find this revision to have been a total waste of time and money. National Camp School is now referred to as National Camping School speaking of which I am informed by those we sent to said school to be trained to provide Qualified Supervision for our Cub Scout Day Camp that the National guide is a ratio of 8 to 1 for Cub Day Camp. Two adults and sixteen 7 year olds is acceptable. I think there could have been other areas addressed if they wanted to address RISK in the current GTSS. LongHaul

` As Lisabob has said there can be an issue if a boy is held back or double promoted in school. My youngest was double promoted twice, get's it from his mother I guess, but we kept him with his age group in Cubs. He was academically gifted but maturity wise he was challenged. He was kind of a Baby Huey with brains. I talked with our DE and his superior about this and as long as he was not past 11 years 6 months he could still be in Cubs no matter what his grade in school. I don't know if this is written anywhere but that's how we did it. There was a question with another scout that had been held back because of behavior disorders and he was not allowed to become a Webelos 2 because he had turned 11 1/2 and had to go into a troop. The pack may have wanted to get rid of him and used this excuse but that was what was presented by the DE, at the District Committee Meeting when it was presented. As John-in-KC says as long as the dates dont conflict I shouldnt be a problem. This is for the boys, what ever is in their best interest should be what we try to make fly. Whos going to protest a decision to allow the boys to finish the rank requirements? LongHaul

Just a FYI type thing, Lisabob says that "I'm guessing we're not dealing with graduating 5th graders" Isn't it ironic that if we were talking about graduating fifth graders we could allow them an additional 6 months past their 11th birthday or graduation from 5th grade, which ever is later, to remain in the Pack and complete requirements before graduating into Boy Scouts, but from Wolf to Bear we are talking weeks. LongHaul

mbscoutmom, Technically, I said technically, the boys "graduate" when they complete their school grade or have a birthday. Wolves are in second grade or 8 years old. Technically once they complete second grade or turn 9 they become Bears, rank achievement not withstanding. There is stipulation for Webelos who want to remain in the pack past completion of fifth grade, I hope that is not the case here. If you allow the Boys to work on rank over the summer when will it be awarded and how? Will you be creating a precedent for future dens who want to graduate at the end of summer instead if the beginning? Can some boys graduate and some boys stay "in grade" what becomes the call here? If this is a tiger den and boy and parent were not familiar with the program I'd have sympathy but if these boys are familiar with the advancement program and are 10 months into this rank "phase" and have not pursued advancement what is the purpose of "fast tracking" them now? LongHaul

Packsaddle, Turn the page. Special Regulations in my copy of the Insignia Guide (2005)it's page three. Third bold heading; Badge Swapping. I reprinted the entire paragraph word for word. It says that Article X of the Rules and Regs forbids "holding" of badges you didn't earn. I heard this before when an adult wanted to put together a collection of Eagle rank insignia and their foreign equivalents as a gift for a Scouter who had mentored more Eagles than I can count in over 60 years of continuous service. He was "retiring" due to health reasons, he had a number of heart attacks and his wife said she'd kill him if he didn't stop running all over the world playing boy scout. Anyway the word was we couldn't make the display because it was expressly forbidden by Corporate. Trevorum, So flagrant violation of the rules is OK? All rules or just some? Smoking is ok just dont inhale approach? I agree that the rule is a bit anal when it gets to holding rather than wearing but that same argument can be made by anyone on almost any disputed topic we discuss here. Choosing to disregard a rule shouldnt be confused with condoning its violation. Especially not by leaders. LongHaul

CNYScouter, It may not seem so at first but I'm sure you know that it is easier to teach proper technique in the beginning than to correct improper technique down the road. Don't stumble out of the blocks. LongHaul

Scoutldr, I've missed the point of your last post. I don't think anyone has disputed the text you quoted. I've re-read my post and don't see where I could have led you to think I was advocating a unilateral decision. I'm asking how the deciding body can equate "as demanding of effort as the regular requirements." How would you make that decision if you were on the committee? The person requesting the alternate requirement submits alternate requirement possiblities but how do you make the decision as to what qualifies? LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

I'm sure someone has posted this before but looks like it needs to be repeated. Insignia Guide 2005 (don't have the 2006 if it's different Please let me know) Page 3 Badge Swapping; Boy Scouts and Venturers attending jamborees may swap among themselves articles and novelties of a local or regional nature. The swapping of such items as badges of office, rank, distinguished service, training, performance, achievement and distinction, however, is a violation of Article X of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, forbidding the holding of these badges by any but the members who have complied with the requirements for them. Trevorum, So as a counselor for Collections MB, if a Scout comes to me with a collection of old-style rank badges from the 1940s (which he clearly has not personally earned), I should tell him his hobby is in violation of BSA Rules and Regulations??? Yes, explain the rule to the boy and let him know that while what he has collected may be interesting it is against the rules. If this boy had collected "coke" spoons or "hash" pipes from around the world you would not have to ask what to tell him. He has violated the rules none the less by collecting items he is forbidden to "hold". I'm sure you would not want to give the boy the impression that violating the rules is condoned. Many of us knowingly violate rules but should we ever allow the boys to think that it's "right" to violate the rules? LongHaul