LongHaul

DanKroh, The psychologists who have done research into the pathology and treatment of pedophilia. Including myself. That explains a lot, the conditions related to pedophilia are what you say they are because you say they are, theyre your findings, you and the Psychiatric profession no disrespect intended. Discussing this with you will be as fruitful as discussing whether the Bible is the word of God with some of our other forum members. It is because I say it is and I say it is because that is what I believe so it must be true. Why is it that the psychiatric profession no longer feels homosexuality is a sickness? Did they misread the signs? Misdiagnose the illness? Make a mistake? Could that be true of their position on Pedophiles? Nope, no way, KID CARD trumps open mindedness. Im curious though about your reference to the age of menarche. Do you hold that the age or the normal age has changed due to environmental or social influence? Seems like you were saying that in Shakespeares time the norm was different than it is today. I am totally in favor of gay rights Dan, never said I wasnt. My position is that I dont want their views forced upon me. I dont want Gays or Blacks or Catholics or Jews or White Supremacists or Democrats or Republicans or anyone forcing me to associate with someone I chose not to associate with. My problem is not with the equality of gays it with the acceptance of gays at the price of my personal liberty. LongHaul P.S. I wrote this last night but didnt get a chance to post. Since then Fuzzy Bear has posted and I see that the APA didnt find homosexuality to be a sickness as of 1968, AH! the 60s and the changes it brought. Thank you Fuzzy Bear. Dan being in the profession could you find or tell me where to look for a copy of Fuzzys book circa 1950? Id really like to know if the definition has changed or if homosexuality as a sickness was just something else I was taught as a child which was BS. I know that definition would have been wrong but I would like to know if it was indeed the 50s definition.

Eamonn, Thanks for the info, here the unit is responsible for getting the agreement signed by the Chartering Organizational Head and the unit Committee Chairperson. The Chairperson or designate then sits with a district volunteer and goes over all the paperwork for errors and to write a check for fees. The unit rep gets a copy of all the forms and the completed forms with the money are then turned over to council for processing. A formal copy of the actual Charter certificate is then mailed to the unit for presentation to the CO. The copy of the charter agreement and the Certificate end up back with the CO. LongHaul

Just out of curiousity when units re charter in your respective areas do they have to submit a re charter agreement which is signed by the Chatering Organizational head, not to be confused with the COR, the unit CC and the Council Rep? In Chicago we do and that is the yearly renewal of the Charter Agreement. When we form new units this same form is used and accompanies the application for the new unit. LongHaul

DanKroh, You keep on about the fact that pedophiles cant form healthy relationships with other adults, that they (pedophiles) have an internal conflict. Says who? They people who said homosexuality was a mental disorder? The people who said homosexuality can be cured? The people who said homosexuality was abhorrent in the eyes of god? Others in this thread are talking about Douglas Smith do you consider him to be a pedophile? Where were these signs of problematic relationships which should have alerted all his associates? Maybe my first error was in not defining terms but I doubt it. We can cloud the whole discussion with what constitutes a pedophile and at what age is a child not a child and at what point is it OK to fantasize about them. The whole pedophile problem is that it involves children and we cant get past that. Even if the children arent harmed by the experience society cant get past the protective impulse. Talk to someone in Narcotics Anonymous about the reception they got if they sought help in an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. The NAs believe that alcohol is a drug the AAs do not. Many AAs cant accept NAs as being of the same cloth with just a different drug of choice. We are not ready to lump alcohol with drug users. OH! Well drug use is illegal! If we legalized drug use that would make it different? Then we could accept alcohol as a drug? Pedophilia involves children and that means it cant be accepted even as a mental disorder it must be wrong in all forms. This is the same way homosexuality was viewed, it involves same gender intimate contact which must be viewed as wrong no matter what. Gays have spent a lot of effort trying to defend the concept that loving someone is not wrong even if they are of the same gender but age! Oh thats a different story. The pictures Douglas Smith had on his computer where illegal, had those pictures been of adult males would he still have been in as much trouble? If homosexuality was still illegal in Texas would that have made the two situations equal? You ask me to explain my comparison of traumatizing adolescent gays with traumatizing children in general about Pornography. Let me try this approach, lets talk about porn I cant define it but I know it when I see it.. Would a picture of two adult males locked in passionate embrace, genitalia carefully out of sight be Pornography? All the yeses on this side the nos against the wall. Child pornography is only bad because society says it is bad. Romeo and Juliette were 14 and they were about to start a family. Juliets parents were about to marry her off. An adult having fantasies about her would be sick? Again we have the definition of pedophile and what constitutes a child I see it as splitting hairs to avoid the real issue. Ask anyone in this forum who has a 14 year old Freshman daughter if they consider her a child for the purposes of this discussion. I think everyone is aware of the two young girls that have made the white power videos and the stories about how they are raised and the ideas they have been taught to embrace. If it was nudity and sexuality instead of hate it would be illegal, but as it is its news. We can argue all we want about terminology and medical definition my point is the same a door has been opened and more things are going to come through it that was intended. If we are going to talk about acceptance then we should be ready to discuss accepting everyone no matter what. If we are supposed to set aside old ideas then set aside all the old ideas not just those affecting our personal issue. LongHaul

CNYScouter, Don't let the DE snow you 501(3)©"s are perfectly legal and your Council can not stop you from forming one. They don't like it because it takes all property out of the BSA's reach. Problem is insurance. BSA insurance may not cover liability for use of 501(3)© property. If a boy gets hurt on the boat who is insuring the boat? As for the Charter Agreement it was signed when the ship was formed, no agreement no ship. Signing of the agreement was the act which created the unit. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

oldsm, Your first sentence says the important thing, he has earned the Eagle rank. National has accepted his petition and awarded the rank advancement. The Eagle Charge is ceremony it can be done by anyone and the more meaning it has for the recipient the better. I say the former SM should do it unless it goes against the former SMs views. I would only administer the charge as a last possible option. I also think it should be administered by an Eagle Scout but that is a personal view and only applies to me. LongHaul

GernBlansten, first let me apologize for misspelling your name a few pages back. Being able to scientifically prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that homosexuals dont have any choice in the matter will not change a thing. Its not why they do it its what they do that is the problem. As a child I was taught that homosexuality was a sickness, a perversion, I learned that this might not be true along with many other concepts and ideas. Today I really dont care what a persons sexual orientation is. Ill take help from anyone in doing my AYSO stuff, or Little League stuff or Civic Association stuff but when I put on my Scout uniform I have to follow the rules I agreed to follow when I signed up. I resent those who try to force their positions on me but are unwilling to accept my position. Im not telling anyone they cant be gay, Im not telling them that they are wrong, or sick, or unwelcome in my home. I will tell them that they are not welcome in SEVERAL of the groups I belong to, one being the Boy Scouts. About 1/3 of my troop is Black and no one, including me, has any problem with that. I still believe that White people who dont want to live with Black people should be able to exercise that preference just as I exercise my preference to open my self up to any individual regardless of color. Its my choice not something Im forced to do under threat of retribution or loss of privilege. I would be far more inclined to join the voice to have BSA change its current stand if BSA wasnt under attack over it. Ill give you the shirt off my back but dont try and steal it. LongHaul

Hunt, you make my point for me. The truth here is that some people think that homosexuality is not only a bad sin, but a sin that has the capacity to poison society. As a result, these folks think that it is appropriate for society to use laws to restrict homosexuality. Then attack THEM in the courts not the BSA. BSA has never accepted membership of females under the age of 14 yet no one has sought to restrict BSA access or privilege because of this position. BSA does not restrict homosexuals from marriage or housing or anything except membership in the BSA. Live and let live? Why should those who believe homosexuality to be abhorrent not use the same means to fight it that homosexual advocates use to punish those whos only offense is none acceptance? Mention Dr. King at your peril in trying to make this argument, anyone who had the privilege or honor to actually meet the man know that he treated those he opposed with respect and dignity deserved of others. Dr. King was first and foremost a man of peace. He would never have sought the whip hand, he never wanted his day on top. How will stopping the BSA from helping youth help the cause of homosexuals? We are an easy target. We offer publicity. If harm comes to an otherwise beneficial organization tough take care of number 1. These actions do not make me want to advocate the gay cause. DanKroh think about what youve written. "Pedophilia is defined as the act or fantasy of engaging in sexual activity with prepubertal children as the preferred or exclusive method of achieving sexual excitement." No, not all pedophiles will actually act on those fantasies and become child molesters. But the condition (pedophilia) is still considered detrimental because it interfers with the pedophile's ability to form healthy relationships with other adults. One of the defining symptoms in diagnosing pedophilia is that "The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." First you admit that you, and apparently the APA, cant separate the fantasy from the act so not only is it illegal to do it its illegal to fantasize about it! In the second part you say the condition is considered detrimental because it interferes with the persons ability to form healthy relationships with other adults. Kind of like homosexuality in the 50s huh? Was kinds tough rubbing elbows with the Mens Club or the Rotarians after you told them you were gay. If we accept pedophilia as a condition and stop stigmatizing it they wont have to hide it and then the social problem will go away. We can start treating them alike drug users who cant relate or alcoholics who can't form relationships or any of the other thousand people with diminished social skills, but when you say relationship you really mean sexual relationship with other adults. I thought we were supposed to keep our noses out of other peoples bedrooms isn't that part of the whole acceptance thing?. You say Children who are photographed for the "kiddie porn" industry are usually put into sexual situations. I have one client who was a kiddie-porn victim. No one had to tell her that the situations she was put in to be photographed were not "natural". They just felt wrong to her. Again its because she was taught cetain things were wrong not because she felt it all on her own. What was happening to her had been stigmatized by society just as homosexuality had been. How many young children were traumatized because they had feelings for members of the same sex and society told them it was wrong? Where is the difference? When we embrace pedophilia as an alternate lifestyle and stop traumatizing children with old fashioned stereotypes the pain and suffering will end. Go back and read fgoodwins original post its when we open the flood gates that the tide overtakes us. In for a penny in for a pound. Why is one orientation acceptable and another not, because society says it is thats why. In the 50s homosexuality was wrong, today not so much. Why should pedophilias not have the same right as long as it remains a fantasy and society stops harming the children by telling them it is not natural? Its all or nothing and that is the point of the original post and one of the backlashes of the law suits. You will argue for gays and against pedophiles and use the same arguments "they" used agaist gays but not see the error becasue you don't accept pedophilia as being acceptable even if it is not a choice. Well there are many people who still don't feel being gay is acceptable either. They feel gays can't form healthy relationships with other adults. "The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." Kind sounds like the position society is putting gays in. Fear of reprisal, denial of benifitis and rights, rejection and ridicule how can gays function without some distress or impairment? Once you let the camel get his nose in the tent you will soon be outside and he will be inside. LongHaul I wonder how the APA defined homosexuality back in the 50's?(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Im going to take these in order of appearance; GlenBlansten, Pedophiles cannot exercise their sexual instincts without harming children. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Pedophiles are sexually attracted to children this does not mean they wish to engage in sex with them. Having photographs of naked children is illegal to the point that under Regan and Edwin Meese people were arrested for taking naked pictures of babies on furry blankets. How is being photographed unclothed harmful to a child? Nudists cant take family photographs without running the risk of arrest? How about if we only allow photographs of nudist children? If we are predisposed to accept that wanting to look means a person will eventually want to touch then every heterosexual male should be indicted for rape. They have the desire, and the means so the act must necessarily follow right? What Im talking about here is the distinctions we make. I said pedophile and you heard child molester. You cant accept that someone may want to look but not want to touch. Society believes that photographing a child is harmful. Its only harmful if we tell the child it is harmful, that its wrong, that its sick. Children that are raised to believe that nudity is acceptable dont have that view so it must not be natural but is in fact a learned response. DanKroh, you also equate desire with action. Pedophiles do not harm children child molesters harm children. Why is it so hard to accept pedophiles for the non harmful people they really are. Why must you of all people, you who understand the evils of stereotyping and assigning negative predispositions lump the poor pedophiles with the dreaded child molesters? Old beliefs and opinions die hard? Trevorum, even the people who wrote all men are created equal didnt actually believe it. For as long has man has been in existence he has been a social animal. We group together and separate ourselves from other groups. We separate along a myriad of lines, religious, economic, cultural, physical appearance, social position, every possible distinction you can imagine. When a government tries to break down these lines by force, which is what laws actually are a threat, those drawing the lines become ever so much more convinced the lines are necessary. The question here is not with the legality of homosexuality it is with the acceptance of homosexuality. Governments can not force people to believe something they dont. When will homosexuals begin to treat those who disagree with them with the respect they wish to have shown them. Treat me as you would have me treat you. Yellow_hammer, wrong forum for that tack! LongHaul

How many GSUSA members know about this forum? Maybe it's just a matter of getting the word out. LongHaul

No Ed, I think it will be pedophiles. Beer drinking is a choice but we are being beaten over the head with the concept that sexual orientation is not. Being attracted to children is no different than being attracted to one of the same sex. Pedophiles cant help being pedophiles, its in their genes. First we will be bombarded with the realization that pedophiles are not necessarily child molesters. Just because a person is attracted to children does not mean they have to act on that desire. Then we will go down the road of what constitutes a child, age distinction. Then we will get to age of consent and when is a person able to make decisions for themselves (children suing parents comes to mind). The barriers will be eroded like water flowing over a rock. For those who think THAT will never happen remember homosexuality was illegal in most states not that long ago. The one thing Im upset about is that no one is trying to fight for nudist rights. When will the naturists be allowed to express themselves without reprisal? LongHaul

I recommend the use of the cattle prod but on the lowest of settings. I participated in competitive sports as a child, middle school (as it is now called) high school and college, I cant compete today but Im still in Scouting. Organized sports can be very rewarding, my high school coach taught me many things I cherish today and use as SM but nothing can replace Scouting in a boys life. As long as your unit accepts the fact that boys who play sports can not attend as regularly as those who do not then I say push him to be as involved as is practical. Scouting has things to offer which sports do not and as others have said unless youre good enough to make a living at it sports are time sensitive, Scouting lasts a life time and you get to pass it on! LongHaul

There are actually two issues here, first the authority, or power if you will of the Council volunteers, and second the traditions of the unit. The Eagle rank, all the hoopla and prestige aside, is just another rank advancement. Outside his own unit I would be willing to bet the Council "Eagle Board Member" in question has never demanded that a unit COH be altered to his liking for a rank other than Eagle. As has been said by others the Eagle Boards duties ended with the acceptance or rejection of the Eagle petition. The fact of the matter is that the boy is already an Eagle Scout. What songs are played and who administers the Eagle Charge is irrelevant, the boy is and Eagle Scout by the power of the National Organization. Trevorum thought all that is minimally necessary is an authorized BSA representative to present the award with his/her congratulations, that BSA representative has already spoken and the award has been issued, who actually hands it to the scout is again irrelevant. Next we have the traditions of the unit. Some do the same thing for every Eagle. Some allow the boy to write his own ceremony. As SM I have written each of the ceremonies for our Eagles and tailored them to the individual boy. For me what seems to be the central issue here is the fact that the ceremony has already been decided upon. A Scout is Courteous, even the CO should think long and hard about asking for changes last minute. This was surly not planned last minute and anyone with a say had time to say it. I suggest telling the Eagle Board along with it's chairman that their contributions to Scouting are appreciated and that they are invited to attend as guests not participants. LongHaul

Two issues here so the original post first. Had a similar problem some years back with our pack. Parents wanted to cross over in September to free them from having to run a Webelos II program. In our instance all the boys met the age requirement to earn the AOL by September. None of the boys lasted two years with the troop! They were not ready to take over responsibility for their program despite the effort of two really good troop guides. If the boys in cajuncody's example are not eligible to earn the AOL then it is a disservice to even suggest a September cross over. As to pargolf's scenario, if the boy in question will be 11 before Feb then he actually should cross over with the group in February. Technically he can remain registered with the pack for 6 months after his 11th. birthday but that would leave him crossing over alone and several months behind his closest group. Personally he should be treated like a boy who joins Cub Scouts as a Webelos II and is fast tracked for Webelos Badge and AOL. He can earn both if he wants to put in the effort but it usually takes an adult to work with him to keep him on track. LongHaul

double post(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Let's also not forget Eagle Scout John Glenn first American to orbit. Six out of the Seven Mercury Astronauts had been in scouting. When one thinks of the effort expended to find the best America could offer for the new space program and know that 6 of 7 of the final crew had been in scouting it speaks volumes. Deke Slayton was the only non scout from the Mercury group and it took him 15 years to get into space, heart condition ya sure:) LongHaul

Had to look for scoutldrs original post to find out what this thread was about. The six month grandfather clause refers to merit badges that change after Jan 1 and National wants them implemented before Jan 1 of the next year. National assigns a date mid year when the new requirements must be used, until that date a boy can begin under either set of requirements. Once a boy begins a merit badge and earns a partial he can complete the badge under the requirements he started with until his eighteenth birthday. There is no shelf life. Once requirements change a boy can not begin working on a badge under the old requirements. A boy with a partial can switch to the new requirements if he chooses but he must complete all of the new requirements. It is the decision of the MBC as to whether the requirements earned under the old rules satisfy the new requirement. LongHaul

Back when Chicago Area Council thought Scouting was something that should be promoted (circa 1970) our then Scout Executive made a TV commercial. It was simple and consisted of just a head shot, BSA logo backdrop, and him saying the following. I cant guarantee that one of our scouts wont hold up a liquor store, drop out of school, or do drugs but Ill give you odds on it. The intro and final shots were scout outdoor shots. Will the world be a different place because of what we as leaders do? YES, we affect the youth we serve simply by interaction. Will it be a better place? That I cant tell but I like to think so. Will some former scout say yes to the PTA, local AYSO, Scout troop or civic organization when they ask for help? Again the numbers say definitely yes. When someone took the time to be there for a child that child is more likely to do the same as an adult. Eamonn poses some excellent questions. Where do our values come from? Do I or will I play a part in setting up the personal values in the Scouts I serve? Will the fact that someone is a Scout in time or over time improve their personal values? He goes on to say, I really want all the kids I serve to be happy and caring people, while they are still kids and when they grow up., then asks Is that a goal? Where do our values come from? Heredity vs. environment. I believe we are what we have been taught to be. If you were taught to eat with a knife, spoon and fork you eat with a knife spoon and fork. If you were taught to eat with your finger you eat with your fingers. Unless of course you were taught to eat with chop sticks. Do I or will I play a part in setting up the personal values in the Scouts I serve? I believe you do and will. They experience the effect your interaction has on them today and respond to it. It affects the choices they make consciously and subconsciously, which means that sometime in the future they will make decisions which are in part influenced by what they experience today. Will the fact that someone is a Scout in time or over time improve their personal values? A resounding YES! Again this is just my opinion but I see Scouting as a very unique program. When delivered properly this program offers opportunities for growth no other program offers. It is youth run. Youth are encouraged to fail in the sense that they are encouraged to try things beyond their current abilities. They are allowed to deal with the failure without negative pressure. They are taught to function as a group and understand that asking for help is a sign of strength not weakness. They are given a chance to interact with adults on a level playing field. Adults will listen to their ideas and desires and help them achieve a goal not hand it to them. Scouting offers a Safe Haven where a child can grow without fear of repression or ridicule. Scouting discourages negative reinforcement. I really want all the kids I serve to be happy and caring people, while they are still kids and when they grow up. Is that a goal? If you believe that happy caring people are better off than those who are not then yes. LongHaul

Kite Wars!!!! Now that brings back memories. Grew up next to a very large prairie which made these very exciting. We used double sided razor blades on the bottom three sides of the tail. If you kept the kites low enough you could recover your kite if it was "downed". Too much hieght and you could be looking for days. LongHaul

commandopro, On behalf of every scout and scouter in the chicagoland area, especially Chicago Area Council, PLEASE stay where ever you are now. We don't need any more help from bottom line, cookie cutter professionals with ideas such as yours. If you don't understand the demographics and idealogical differences in this area please do your home work before offering advise. If on the other hand your ONLY goal is bean counting and profit margin then again I ask stay where you are now. LongHaul

Treated Lumber sold today does not use chromated copper arsenate as a preservative any longer. Check with the lumber supplier and obtain an evironmental protection statement. The old style lumber is now illegal to sell commercially. The link scoutldr gave is from 2003. LongHaul

This topic just never seems to get old or DIE! "Have your parent, counselor, or other adult take and record the following measurements" doesn't leave much room for interpretation. For a counselor to insist that he/she shall be the only one allowed to "record the following measurements" is altering the requirement as written. LongHaul

funscout, Any chance that when this boy "gets" Eagle for Christmas he and his family will just disappear? Going by the Wolf arrow point story I wonder how many Eagle Plams this kid will apply for. LongHaul

Eagle1984, Please allow me to clarify my positions and statements. Just because the GTSS allows an activity does not mean the TC must allow it. The GTSS says that the use of power tools is approved for Boy Scouts but the TC can say that no power tools shall be used by Scouts and that is the end of it. The CO and the TC make the rules for the troop. The TC and CO can not allow activities that the National Organization has forbidden such as handguns, fire works, alcohol use by adults etc. but the TC and CO can make the rules tighter. In answer to my second question you wrote She wants to know why no one under the age of 18 is not allowed to operate anything gas powered in relation to an Eagle project I dont know if the double negative was intentional or an over sight. The TC or CO are within their right to allow or forbid the use of gas powered tool by scouts, with the exception of chain saws which are restricted by National. You are a member of the District Advancement Committee so you should know if there is a policy concerning gas powered tools being used in connection with Eagle projects. LongHaul

Packwife, Think about it from this angle. The troop is made up of patrols just as the US is made up of states. We didnt break the country up into states the states came together to form the union. The patrols come together to form the troop. As new scouts enter the troop they are formed into a patrol which ideally should remain together for the remainder of the members scout tenure. As boys leave scouting and patrol membership dwindles, patrols combine to retain functioning numbers. Boys are grouped by age so that they learn together and develop the patrol identity. As others have said this is only one approach to the patrol method. No matter what approach a troop employs, the experienced scouts should be teaching those who need instruction helping them to become teachers. LongHaul