LongHaul

Beavah, Along the lines of this post and the one on authority let me ask you for your opinion. I'm newly associated with a troop which has been continually chartered for 95 years. They have some traditions which go back quite a way. One of the things they do is have all the boys above First Class wear the green Venturing shirt. They have found over the years that this aids in retention of older boys. My question is do you think this is one of the "authority" issues which the local unit/CO have the "authority" to decide? LongHaul

Thank You! bbng If you will look at the link bbng has supplied you will notice that these are NOT the images we normally use on our patches. The clip art and reproductions we do use are not those which are officially approved by National. Note the references to size, color, shape,etc. which is mentioned in all the links referring to permission to reproduce. Also note the part where it says that the image must appear exactly as received with no other images connected with them. The patches we have made always have other details on them along with BSA images. If we are going to haul out legal documents and "official" text be sure we read it as written and know what we are reading. The ONLY time I can recall in all my years of anybody getting into trouble using BSA images is when they tried to reproduce event patches and sell them as originals. Does anyone know of an instance where someone got into trouble using a BSA image on patch for an approved event? LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

If the information that you are not allowed to use the Venturing Logo came from your SE or ASE directly then you are in trouble. If it came from a paid professional of lesser rank I'd contact your ASE or SE directly. Yes all logos are copyrighted material and TECHNICALLY we are supposed to ask for permission of the local council before including them on materials we produce ourselves. That said let me ask you this "What can 'they' do to you if you use the logo anyway?" Do you really think 'they' will try to physically stop you from distributing the patches? What this soounds like to me is not a matter of "You can't" but a situation where "You should not have.." What I'm reading is the use of Venture Crew and Venturing and am not sure if they are being applied correctly. There is no such thing as a Venture Crew. It's either a Venturing Crew or a Venture Patrol. One is a serperate unit with a seperate charter and the other is a part of a Boy Scout Troop. If your speaking of a Venturing Crew then use the logo. If it's a Venture Patrol then "You should not have.." LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

JerseyJohn, Sounds to me like you have a discipline problem with your adults. If the adults can't control themselves and not undermine the ability of the SM to build responsibility and leadership within the youth members then that individual should be asked to get with the program or stay home. It is best to have the adults separate from the boys so the boys feel that they are in control and not under surveillance but it should not be necessary. Boys will at times seek the path of least work. Why figure it out myself if I can get the solution from someone else? Its the adult that needs to say Ask your PL, ASPL, SPL, or whoever is in the position to answer that question. I personally cant think of two questions that an adult should feel they have to supply the answer to coming up at a troop meeting. Before I asked them to stay home Id explain why they need to support the chain of command and learn to say, Thats not within the scope of my job description. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

So the "IT" in my case is the provision of services to the youth. And the "authority" for that is in the unit/CO, and (hopefully), the PLC. Exactly where it should be, eh? On that sir we can agree. The authority to provide the A program was granted to the CO/unit in the form of its charter from the National Corporation. It came with the stipulation that the CO/unit conform to National Corporation policy. As I read his post Eamonn was referring to COs and units who have tweaked National policy to the extent that they are usurping Nationals authority to set policy. Just because National said it does not make it true (i.e. the numbers from the original post) but just because National has issued it does make it policy(i.e. the ban on girls and gays). LongHaul

For those who believe boy led means boy led let me ask you what youd do in this situation. You are the SM of a troop of about 20 boys. A boy is elected SPL who you know does not want the responsibility he wants the title. The weekly troop meeting plans stop being made, the PLC becomes a discussion group for X Box vs Play Station and the monthly outings are not planned. You contact the boy and address the PLC about their responsibly to the members and receive a phone call from the SPLs parent telling you that the SPL knows that the adults will not let the troop disband and that eventually the adults will take up the slack and do the work that the former SPL was doing. Do you wait till the minority who didnt vote for this SPL leave for a troop that works? Do you pick up the slack and do the work the SPL is supposed to be doing? How do you force a boy to do something he knows you cant force him to do? LongHaul

Before we get to far down this road lets recap. The original post was in reference to numbers published by National which did not reflect general experience. The math just didnt work with the numbers presented. A forum member questioned the need to question National on the numbers. This lead to the question of whether we, as Scouters, encourage or suppress the questioning of things said or done by someone in a position of authority. This lead to this thread about where the authority lies. Connecting the dots one would be lead to believe that it is being said that the CO or CP has the authority to post numbers for National. Again I ask What are we talking about? LongHaul

So are you saying that if my CO decides that Family Life shouldn't be required for Eagle and decides to award every scout Family Life merit Badge upon registration that that "at the end of the day" that authority rests with the CO? LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

First off I could not to decide where to respond to this thread, in Eamonns or in Beavahs. I learned something in high school before you get into a lengthy discussion it is best to define terms. Just what do we mean when we use the term authority? Beavah says it should or does lie with the CO/unit, Eagledad wants it to be in the hands of the PLC. Just what is IT? The second term we need to define is tweak and separate it from change. When we discuss advancement on this forum we constantly get into where the line between interpretation and addition stands. The right to define The Program is with National. Everyone of us tries to deliver A program but is it BSAs program? OH! Wait a minute maybe we should define program. My point here is that we really need to know exactly what we mean when we use certain terms, before we take a stand. I know that Beavah does not mean that what every we do as long as it is CO sanctioned is SCOUTING. Eagledad is not proposing throwing out the GTSS. JUst what level of authority are we discussing? LongHaul

Here is some reference material about the "Thanks Badge" http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-can3.htm LongHaul

Scoutingagain, I was posting in response to nldscout, who was posting from the perspective of a criminal judge. From the original post I would have to agree that the EBOR should have been held no matter what criminal activity had taken place immediately prior. The members would then execute their duty and vote for or against advancement. The scout in question had, between the time of the EBOR being scheduled and the EBOR being held , participated in the commission of a felonious act, had been arrested gone to trial and been convicted. I feel it would be a bit soon to accept his word that he is sorry, and It wont ever happen again. I tend to think that his attitude on the day the EBOR was scheduled was Id never do a thing like that! Absolving him so soon, in my opinion would be sending the wrong message. Commit a crime, say your sorry and all is immediately forgiven? This scout should be made to feel that he has not only broken the law but has relinquished his credibility with his leaders and his peers. He must now regain the trust of his fellows within the Scouting community as well as satisfy his legal obligation to the people of the State in which he committed the crime. Im not saying he should never be promoted to Eagle just not till he has shown himself worthy. LongHaul

Im late into this whole topic because the site would not let me in  The reference has been made to being convicted of possession of "drugs". In the 60's, when I was a scout, possession of any amount of marijuana was a felony in the state of Texas, not so in New York, and could actually have been considered a minor offense in California depending on the circumstances. So you are or are not qualified to be considered an Eagle scout not based on what you do but where you live? You are or are not qualified to be considered an Eagle scout based not on what you have done but what the EBOR can prove you may have done? Ive posted concerning a case where a boy was promoted to Eagle while on the juvenile sex offenders list. Everyone at the local High School knew the offender and the victim but at an EBOR I cant ask about the incident and the boy cant be faulted for refusing to speak about the incident? Yes Ed in my opinion, having been around a very long time, the concept of what constitutes and Eagle Scout has definitely diminished. What has happened to rectitude of conduct? When Bart Simpson says Nobody saw me do it...you cant prove a thing! it may be funny but when a Scout says it at an EBOR it should be grounds for denial. An EBOR is not a court of law and not required to follow the same rules of evidence. LongHaul

Ed, I have posted before concerning a Scout in my area who was promoted to the rank of Eagle while on the sex offenders list. This boy had twice assaulted the same young woman and all the youth in that High School knew of the incidents. The bragging rights of having another Eagle from that troop out weighed the moral issues. I was told by my DE that my troop wasn't productive because in 15 years we only had a few Eagle Scouts. We see the individual most only see the numbers. LongHaul

I'LL DONATE !!!! Where do I send the money? This is the first time I've been able to get past the home page in about a month. I can't seem to be able to open any of the threads. Talk about cold turkey!! LongHaul

As I recall the picture was of a boy wearing a campaign hat and a uniform type shirt. There were no insignia or markings on the shirt to indicate Boy Scouts but that was definitely the impression I got. Do we intemperate this image as being a Boy Scout because we are Scouts? The fact that this image was meant to represent the Values the maker of the product stood for leads me to believe that it was indeed intended to represent a Boy Scout. It was indeed a Chevy commercial. LongHaul

I too was a competitive swimmer in my youth, and swimming a mile was no harder than walking one. My sympathies go out to CalicoPenn's scoutmaster, I ended up in the rowers seat for a scout of mine doing our channel swim, which is 2.25 miles. Trying to stay ahead of the swimmer for 2.25 miles was far harder for me than swimming it was for him. He went on to be an All American in swimming 1500 meters was his specialty LongHaul

Politics sure does make strange bed fellows I have to agree with BrentAllen on this one. Id like to see a coast to coast, one side of the Capitol Building to the other investigation. This takes me back to the late 60s when drugs were everywhere. I knew who the dealers were, my friends knew who the dealers where, my mother knew who the dealers were, how come the police were the only ones seemingly not in the loop? (They knew, I know, because I told them) With all the people, lobbyists, congressmen and congresswomen, pages, secretaries, and janitorial staff why is it that we only want to know when Hastert knew? Lets put aside for one moment the gender issue and the age of consent debate, lets table the notion that Foley was an authority figure to these pages and their wanting to gain his favor may have lead them to make questionable decisions. Lets talk ethics. Did Foley breach congressional ethics? If a person thinks he did nothing wrong that person, if in the public trust as an elected official Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Independent or whatever, should be willing to take the stand and say that they knew about them and saw nothing wrong with Foleys actions. If, on the other hand, this person does feel that Foley has done something wrong then they should be held accountable for not forwarding information about the ethics violation when they became REASONABLY SUSPICIOUS that a transgression had occurred. The easiest way to make a point is sometimes to take it to an extreme. If this had been a murder, how much information would have to be gathered before someone were expected to go to the police? Because no one died does not make it any less a breach of public trust to have concealed or withheld information. Most of us would not want to make accusations about misconduct without sufficient proof but this is CONGRESS for gods sake! These people will trash each other at the drop of a hat, why didnt some Democrat blow the lid off this long ago for political gain if nothing else? For those on the hill who claim they were totally clueless as to what was going on I ask how they justify making laws for the Nation when they have no idea of what is going on around them. LongHaul

In the last sentence you ask Is there a deadlineto turn in the application This would lead me to believe that this boy has not had a BOR for the rank of Eagle, in which case I turn your attention to the small print at the end of the numbered text on page 17 of the Requirements book #33215B. Bold print end of first paragraph, The Boy Scout Division at the national office must be contacted for procedures to follow if a board of review is to be conducted more than six months after a candidates 18th birthday. LongHaul

For about 10 years the direction from National has been that We dont belong in the real-estate business. You wont find this in print but if you look at the trend across the country the liquidation of property has been the front line solution to the drop in enrollment. With the push on the Learning for Life program in 1990, National has once again begun an effort to take the out out of Scouting. This was tried in the mid 1970s and was met with large drops in enrollment. The LFL program is supposed to counter this switch in demographics. Think about the issue from a different perspective. If National could manage to drop camping and outdoor high adventure from the program what would their overhead become? By that I mean where is the money going? If the program was, as it is with LFL, totally up to the individual CO to produce using a set of National guidelines what would Nationals financial obligation become? National sees Scouting as a business ahead of seeing it as a way of life, or a mind set. Being from the Chicago Area Council this trend has special impact for me and my troop. Our Council SE has managed to sell all of our remaining Camps. I say it was the SE that managed this because of the manner in which this was done; it was an orchestrated plan from day one. Even with 17 million dollars in the bank efforts to sell the one remaining camp were highlighted. Its not about financial accountability or responsibility it is about dollars in the bank under the control of National. As evidence of this I would like to point out that when the plan to sell was uncovered efforts were made by the CORs and the MAL to change the make up of the Executive Board. These efforts were met with all the political finesse Chicago is famous for. Voting on resolutions were rigged, bylaws were rewritten summarily by the Executive Board, essentially giving the sitting members of the board the power to re-elect themselves in perpetuity. When legal proceedings were started by concerned CORs and volunteers the courts held that the Executive Board acted illegally. At this point National stepped in and announced that unless the civil cases were immediately dropped, National would dissolve the Chicago Area Council and assume control of all its assets. The only way to resist this trend is to encourage every voting member of the Council to use their vote to seat people on the Council Boards who reflect the attitudes of the COs and MAL. CNYScouter says that the executive board has decided not to sell the camp, great news. Solutions to declining registration must be recruitment, solutions to falling attendance at summer camps must be promotion and possibly advertising. When I was a scout in the 1960s Chicago Area Council had 6 local camps, within 40 miles of metro Chicago, and owned 10,000 acres in Michigan on which it operated as many as 8 summer camps at one time. The camps are gone and so is the money, our last two camps are sold and when the money from those sales are gone? LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Per the Webelos Leader Handbook, what the rule actually says is that a boy can stay in Cub Scouts, therefore be eligible for advancement, for 6 months after his 11th birthday OR until he completes the 5th grade which ever is later. So, what the issue becomes is whether this boy is still a registered Cub Scout. When did his registration lapse if indeed it has lapsed? He can not re-register as a Cub Scout at this point so basically it comes down to when does the Pack Charter , under which this boy last registered, end. From there we must apply the 6 month rule. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

While I agree that we at a very early age are in different ways offered values. We as free thinking humans at some stage decide for ourselves what is important to us. What do you use to base the decision? (referring to the decision as to what is important to us) What shapes the reasoning you use to decide what is important to you? We don't decide what values we will use to determine our personal values. We make the decision based on what we have been taught and what we have learned from life. Which values we chose to use shows our character it doesn't shape or build our character. If a female under the age of 14 shows herself to be self-sufficient, motivated, charitable, concerned for others, and willing to accept the responsibilities placed before her, we say she shows good character. If that same girl joins a Venturing Crew on her 14th. birthday all of a sudden she has Scout Spirit? I think we might be better served here trying to define Scout Spirit than discussing character. LongHaul FScouter, if our vison statement is "The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training." how can we not deliberatly work on character?(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

In life we have very few things we can really call our own. We have family but people die. We have material possessions but along comes Katrina and over night everything is literally gone. When I look at everything there are only two things which I know are mine until I decide to give them up. My faith and my honor. I choose how I will maintain them BUT the things I use when making those everyday choices are what make up my character. The problem is that I didnt get to choose my character, it was molded by my parents, teachers, friends, family, the people Ive met and the things I have witnessed. I dont even get to judge my character that is also done by others. My character can be bolstered or destroyed without my lifting a finger. Character is what others think you are AND what you are inside. Lawyers make fortunes fighting over deformation of character suits because who you are can be less important than who people think you are, ask any politician or TV evangelist. Having been instilled with scout spirit is one of the things which make up my character. Brent Allen and I usually are on opposite sides when discussing the current administration yet we both have given our oath to do our duty to our country. Does that mean one of us has more scout spirit than the other? Is scout spirit determined by which side you take in the three Gs discussions. Can you have scout spirit if you are for God, undecided about girls, but against gays? Do you lack scout spirit if you are admittedly gay and still register as a scout leader? Look at all the different members of this forum and ask yourself how you would vote as to whether each of us has scout spirit were this a BOR, then ask yourself how you would respond about each of us where you asked to give a character reference based only on what each of us has posted. Having character and being a character are different just as having scout spirit and being of good character is not the same thing. As leaders we need to use scout spirit and instill scout spirit to help build the character of those we serve. You cant actually help other people at all times, sometime you have to let someone else help or just accept that you cant always help. Because you want to help shows scout spirit, when you stop and when you dont is based on character. LongHaul

What is the level of current training within your troop on the adult side? Has the TC done the Committee Challenge? Has your Advancement Chair attended any specific advancement training at district or council level? I ask these questions because the training could give you a segway into your suggestions. Standing alone when trying to implement change is tough. Switching hats, is the TC trying to help the scout grow or are they just trying to continue with past practice? Is there a past practice, by that I mean has being a PL been a requirement for Life in the past? As was asked already did the BOR give the Scout a written list of what needed to be corrected? Building the charater of the boy should take precident over advancing the scout. Just my opinion. LongHaul LongHaul

Yes the IH can hold an additional position within the unit. Being the COR and the CC is strongly discouraged as it removes one layer of accoutability from the chain. LongHaul

Yelruh, Your local council may require being Red Cross or Heart Assc. certified to be a counselor but I would bet that it does not. The requirements book makes no such stipulation nor does the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures publication. BSA Lifeguard requires that the applicant hold current certification in CPR from American Heart Assc. American Red Cross or the National Safety Council but as far as I know that is the only badge/award which requires actual certification. LongHaul