LongHaul

Scoutnut, I know of many Troop Committees that vote on things. If we have a boy that needs financial assistance to go to camp, if we have a fund raiser and a question comes up over possible amounts to credit the boys, when we set or alter troop policies. MY COR and CC dont act like Tin Dictators and issue edicts. Even I as SM have a vote at times. In a unit where two or three people, accepting that the SM gets to dictate program, call all the shots I think it may be difficult to find enough yes people to do most of the back ground work. I would like to know more about the specific agenda DDibben refers to, particularly when these people are said to leave after the agenda is adopted. Ive had CCs that tied to dictate program but the word agenda prompts questions. LongHaul

Does anyone know if there is any video/DVD materials available for the TLT course. The old Scoutmaster's Training Kit for the week end troop training had a video and a manual. All I can seem to find is the Troop Leadership Training guide #34306A. Need Visual props to help promote the use of this at Rooundtables. LongHaul

ABCDE, I don't know how far you want to go with this but there is also an assistant denner position. Each has a shoulder cord device to identify the position. The Denner Cord is a double yellow braid and the Assistant Denner Cord is a single yellow braid. They are about $2 and are worn on the left shoulder. I recommend rotating the positions so each boy gets a chance to do both if that is possible. Check you Scout Shop or ScoutStuff at the National Site. Denner cord is #00368 and Asistant Denner is #00385 LongHaul

Eghiglie, You are 100% correct in that if we have a question, particularly in regards to YP, we are duty bound to ask them. The fact that the question occurred to us constitutes reasonable suspicion. Our Camp is in the state of Michigan, there reasonable suspicion requires the Camp Director to file an official report with council and I believe with the State of Michigan. You wrote; So what I'm actually wondering is what leverage does a SPL/SM have when a Boy Scout is caught doing something incorrect? Is it corect for every offense laughed off for boys "as boys will be boys"? What does it take for a boy to get sent home? Or some extra camp chores? In a boy run unit the SPL has the authority to implement the consequences for all offenses. The problem comes when no consequences have been established. The SPL can not be judge and jury. The SM should support his SPL and work with the SPL to work with the PLC to make sound reasonable rules of conduct and establish them in the unit. Is it correct that every offense be laughed off, certainly not, but who draws the line and where is it drawn? You say that mooning in your Marine unit resulted in a Captains Mast which means the unit commander decided quilt and punishment. In BSA things are a little different in that deciding the degree of the offense before deciding guilt becomes necessary. Is mooning a prank such as putting a spider in a bunk or is it sexual harassment? If its a prank then the SPL/SM hold court. If its a sexual harassment issue then YP rules come into play and the Camp Director and SE (or designate) must be involved. What would it take to get sent home? Wow thats a toughie. When I was a scout youd find yourself stuck on a Greyhound bus headed for home for a serious offense, cant do that today. Ive related incidents where youth have endangered themselves, others, and used vulgar language to the adult supervisor and didnt even lose water front privileges. Id say if you cant have the boy arrested for it then its up to the SM to deal with. Many of those feel boys will be boys particularly when its one of their boys committing the offense. When it comes to extra chores we go back to YP. If you single a boy out for punishment youd best be ready to defend that decision when his parents haul you into court. As our standards become more conservative our desire to impose our will on others grows. We either seek to arrest or seek to sue for being arrested. Everyone wants set the standard according to how they see it, protect me and my kid but dont discipline me or my kid. As has been said in other posts and threads what is necessary is a set list of rules and consequences. Then we just have to stick to the rules. I wonder how many troops have a mooning rule. LongHaul

Eghiglie, In the country that you live in if I walked in on you while you were in your own home in the bathroom and caught you naked would that constitute public lewdness? My campsite and therefore the Kybo which serves it are my home for the period I am there. I would no more walk into another sites bathroom at camp than I would walk into someone elses home. I do not know how this particular camp has its Kybo facilities set up but at our camp we have two toilets, one next to the other separated by a partition. When you enter the building you can see if anyone is sitting on the toilet. You decide to leave or stay if anyone else is in there. If its an adult I tell my boys they have to leave, and tell the adults to announce Leader in a clear voice if they are in there and hear the door open. Other troops allow boys to remain in the building as long as they do not approach the adult. Some troops have taken to hanging shower curtains up to block the line of sight but this also is a YP violation of sorts because it creates a secluded area. My point is when you walk in on someone and dont immediately exit are you not also doing wrong. We have two different shower arrangements. One camp has single showers, one shower for two campsites. Other camps have shower houses with multiple shower heads in a single room. If you bend over to pick up the soap its perfectly legal but if you drop your pants while in the dressing area its grounds for expulsion? With Adult and youth situations they are never supposed to be in the same place at the same time with reguards to bathrooms and showers and it is the adult that is responsible to maintain proper safe guards. The whole concept, for lack of a better word, of mooning isnt something new. As Ive said we did it at swim team to taunt the other towel wielders in the locker room on occasion. Kids have done it out the window of cars for years. The problem is that today we have to worry about everyones feelings to the extent that the extreme becomes the norm. In St. Thomas there is a nude beach right next to the family beach. If you swim down the coast a 100 yards, around a few shrubs  . Different people view the human body differently, if you where a Muslim boy raised in a home where woman kept covered when in sight you may be offended by our standard female uniform. Coming of overly strong on this issue denotes that there is something very wrong about someone seeing someone elses naked body. Kids today shower with their suits on, we showered and swam naked in high school. I had a boy that changed clothes inside his sleeping bag because he was afraid someone would walk in on him. The act of mooning is inappropriate in a Scouting environment period. But when we drag in the public lewdness we must expel the person being mooned in this situation for invading the personal space of the offender. If I as a male walk into an area where I know there might be female leaders in the state of undress and stand there long enough to be mooned who would get expelled? If we go to extremes we open too many doors. Keep it simple. LongHaul

Oh wingnut! Same thing but no peeing. First night at camp a scout took his brand new flashlight in the three holer kybo. This was before Mag lites but that is what this thing looked like. Four or five D cells long and with that wide head. He had it sitting on the wood part next to him pointed at the ceiling when another scout walked in. Back then things were different and we had three holes because more than one used the place at a time especially at night when your tent mate wakes you as he leaves and you decide you have to leave also. Anyway the light takes a tumble down the hole next to the first guy and sticks straight up shinning a funny oval on the ceiling above the middle hole. Next day the leaders ( my dad being SM ) started lowering lines with loops and slip knots trying to lasso this thing but in the end it was stuck and that was that. The funny part was that the light stayed on for about three and a half days. Half the camp heard of the it and had to come take a look after it got dark. I can only hope that I'm helping give my Scouts memories like that and that they can read something like wingnut's post 40 years from now and be right back there laughing as three adults using sticks and line go fishing in the kybo for flashlights. And you just know that half the troop was trying to get in there with them to watch. LongHaul

First up I need to make it clear that I agree that the incident describes unacceptable behavior. I do not believe it constitutes a Youth Protection issue and definitely not a YP violation. OneHour writes; My son was one of the two scouts on the receiving end of the mooning and he was offended! My son, being sheltered from a lot of the ugliest that the world has to offer, did not appreciate the humor in it. More and more I find that we are being asked to conform to the wishes of a single individual rather than the individual conforming to the group. For a period my assistants and I, at the request of our CO, were not allowed to openly discuss YP or talk about A Time to Tell or Personal Safety Awareness. The parent involved was of the position that they didnt want their son traumatized by being exposed to these thoughts of Possible abuse. They didnt want to destroy his naivety. They went as far as to request that we stop YP at the youth level all together because doing it when their son was not there would require all the other boys to keep it a secret from him. Our CO reached a compromise and we informed the parents of when we intended to cover this material. The parents finally pulled the boy out because scouting was to physical and rustic. My point is if we shelter our children we have to expect the culture shock when they find out what is actually out there. Be Prepared doesnt mean wear blinders. I was a competitive swimmer for many years and we all showered naked to remove the chlorine. In high school our gym classes all swam naked. When we swam in lane from one side of the pool to the other you invariably got mooned by the guy in front of you as he got out of the pool and you passed the compliment on to the guy behind you. Do it in the locker room and you would get Eds solution, and from anyone at every angle that had a shot to boot! As to the actual instance I have several questions, which do not have to be answered Im just wondering about a few things. What are the physical arrangements of the bathroom facilities were a boy using a toilet is in view of those walking in on him? . If this is the case you should expect the possibility of seeing a boy with his pants down when you walk in. If you walk in on someone using the can you immediately do a 180 and walk out the mooner wouldnt have time to offend the moonee. It was said that the offending youth was on the can and pulled down his pants to moon the younger scout. What was he doing on the can with his pants up? If the older scout mooned the younger scout because the older scout knew the younger scout would be offended because of his sheltered lifestyle then this moves it into a more serious area than just mooning someone. Mooning may not be considered a prank by some and could be considered as such by others but any time we have an incidence of one person young or old doing something with the deliberate intent to cause another person discomfort or embarrassment we have to intercede. LongHaul

Ill cast my vote for Owasippe Scout Reservation, Twin Lakes Michigan. On Michigans Western edge just east of Whitehall north of Muskegon. Over 4000 acres of Scouting fun. http://scarlet_sassafras.tripod.com/id2.html We have Camp Blackhawk a dinning Hall camp with aquatics area on Big Blue Lake. We have Camp Wolverine an in site dinning camp where meals are delivered to each site. Aquatics is done in a pool for swimming and Lake Wolverine for boating. Fisherman will love this camp, fresh fish is a great evening treat. Both Camps Blackhawk and Wolverine offer loads of merit badge opportunities including the ever favorite Shot Gun, Rifle, Archery and Black Powder(verifiy availablity for camp and week) Camp Carlen offers Venturing Camp for older scouts and Venturing Crews. Camp Reneker offers Family Camp facilities for families of leaders attending section camps. Programs for the kids and adults alike. We have a Horse Coral for Horsemanship activities, Low and High Cope, Our Manistee Quest HA program allows you to hike the Manistee National Forest, paddle the many rivers or do a combination of both. Adventure Patrol for younger first year campers, Where Eagles dare for the returning camper, Programs for older Scouts include outposts for Horsemanship, Fishing, Sailing, Photography, White River Canoe Trips and more. Check the link and explore that site. LongHaul

In a perfect council maybe all the Commissioners are assigned or as Eamonn says receive their commissions from Council but here District Commissioners are pretty much on their own to recruit Unit Commissioners. Training is text book at best and seeing that very few units are text book the Commissioner staff struggles. Coming in from the outside and helping people who think they know everything already isn't an easy job. I just thought a catagory easily identified where Commissioner services could be discussed would be helpful to those doing that job. As a SM and Trainer it doesn't actually affect me either way. I just hope those with tips will respond to SWScouter because Unit Commissioners are helpful in the long run with any unit. LongHaul

What are we trying to accomplish with this merit badge? Whip something together for a few hours on some Saturday to qualify for another badge? Do Entrepreneurs operate that way? Check the requiremetns for Shotgun Shooting Option A and you will find that nowhere does it say that the scout must hit the targets while they are still in the air, but because that is what Shotgun Shooting is all about that's how we do it. What is Entrepreneurship all about? LongHaul

As for National backing leaders get accused of a YP violation and see how fast National stops taking your calls. Yah, well. If you commit an intentional criminal act, then your criminal defense is on your own dime. As it should be. I said accused and you have the person committing the offense and being guilty as charged. Unfortunately National takes the same view. " If he wasn't guilty the kid would never have made the accusation." Just how many actual cases where litigation was enacted are you personally familiar with? In reality, they only help or hurt a bit, and it's your insurer that they help or hurt, not you. There is no reason why anyone, as a reasonably conscientious Scouting volunteer, should have any fear of legal issues. You as the plaintiff dont get to decide what reasonably conscientious means the judge and jury gets that right. Having followed ALL the rules and regulations helps your lawyer make that case. Again if Im not liable why am I named in the suit and why do I need a lawyer? LongHaul

I have never served on the Commissioner Staff so I speak only from the unit level. What I have always looked for in a UC is a person that can bring in an outside eye to the workings of a unit. On UC I knew always made friends  by asking that who every has been doing it for the past three years train someone else instead of doing it again this year. Replacing a SM, CM in a healthy unit on short notice is not as hard as replacing the person that organizes a major unit function. The UC helps units realize that they need back up quarterbacks in key positions. The Commissioner staff sees that all the packs know where all the troops are and that Webelos have options when it comes to crossover. Make sure that there is a good unit level Webelos to Transition program that is more than crossover oriented. I hope you get usable info from those with more hands on experience. Which brings up another concept, recruit people with actual field experience as opposed to training experience. Having actually done it is better than having taken all the training about it. Sometimes seasoned volunteers can be convinced they are needed outside their unit(s). LongHaul

How would one request that this forum open up a new category? SWScouter has posted a very good request in the Council Relations category which has to do with the Commissioner Staff. I think the Commissioner Staff and posts relating to Commissioner service should have their own category so as to be noticed better. I only found SWScouters post because I check the Council Relations group for matters concerning the problems in my council. Many dont go there because they are not interested in Council Relations but Commissioners should most definitely be of interest to unit volunteers. I hope everyone will visit and if you have info of value concerning the Commissioner Staff respond to SWScouters post. LongHaul

In an incident locally a boy died on a ski outing. The lawyers representing the SM asked for copies of the YP videos used in training leaders as well as copies of the SM specific training materials. They wanted tour permits and permission forms. As GB says it's to use to convince a judge and jury. Criminal and civil liabilities have different levels of proof necessary to make a case. From the cases I'm familiar with degree of liability is decided by the jury. If one was totally not liable under the law how could a case get past discovery and preliminary levels? As for National backing leaders get accused of a YP violation and see how fast National stops taking your calls. Be Prepared takes on a whole new meaning when law suits are filed. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Gonzo1, I had forgotten about his thread. Yes you are correct I found my copy of the 8th edition also. Brought back memories of trying to work with the junior leaders working with new scouts using a book that had pictures but very few words describing skills. Look up fire building and fire by friction. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

The distinction I was trying to make was between when you help someone and when someone helps you. who's in charge, who has the knowledge. With our large troop tents it would be difficult for our boys to set up a 12 by 15 tent alone. LongHaul

Our Council runs a Webelos Summer Camp program and it is attended by Webelos Dens comprised of Webelos Scouts and at least two Adults. I've taken two seperate dens over the years and none of the participating Packs had 1 to 1 representation. In fact our failities would not support a 1 to 1 ratio. Inclusion of a Bear Den is another matter altogether. LongHaul

FScouter, So on any given Troop outing only one person per tent has the opportunity to get credit for the overnight? We don't use one man tents in our troop, some hold 5 or 6. I run into this question with 2nd class also does "you pitched" automatically mean with no help. Req #7 Prepare for an overnight campout with your patrol by doing the following; Does this mean that the outing must be a patrol only outing or would you accept a Troop outing as long as the individual patrols are responsible for their own patrol gear and food and such? Req # 7b. Pack your own gear and your share of the patrol equiptment and food for proper carrying. Show that your pack is right for quickly getting what is needed first, and that it has been assembled properly for comfort,weight,balance,size,and neatness. Does this mean that this must be a backpacking campout? Can a cooler be the proper means of carrying the food? Do you have to physically put your share of food into the cooler to satisfy the requirement? I read the difference between "you helped pitch" and "you pitched" as meaning whether you were being instructed on how to pitch not whether you had the help of your tent mate. LongHaul

Lisabob, A little information is sometimes a bad thing . When it comes to winter camping information is essential. In sub zero temps when there is a wind the time it takes to begin suffering the effects of Hypothermia are very very small. We have all come to accept that even after one alcoholic drink we are impaired. Each successive drink increases that impairment. Hypothermia can be viewed in much the same way. As the outer layers of tissue on the hands, face, ears become cold the blood flowing thru them becomes cold. When that blood is brought back to the core it triggers a reaction in the hypothalamus. This is the little critter which acts like a thermostat in our body and reacts to changes as small as degree. You dont realize that a change has occurred but the body has changed its method of reacting to your physical activity. Blood vessels are being constricted to save heat and the hands, ears, face are getting less blood, less heat and are getting colder. Its like standing on a teeter tauter right in the middle. While balanced you are OK but as one side or the other dips you have to exert more effort to keep from sliding down. The farther the tilt the harder it is to fight and the faster you slide down. The margin for error in cold weather is smaller because the effects happen faster. At 0 degrees we are 98.6 degrees away from normal. What precautions would you take and what concerns would you have if you were in 120 degrees? Thats only a difference of 21.2 degrees. The difference in our concerns is because of our knowledge that the body can heat itself more efficiently than it can cool itself. We could not survive at 197.2 degrees which is 98.6 above normal. Think of your body's heat as being your body's blood. When our blood is allowed to escape our first thought is stop the bleeding. In cold weather our first concern must be stop the heat loss. Remember fire keeps you warm you must keep everthing else warm. A good coat is not warm, it helps prevent heat loss better. You must be able to heat your self and your clothing from within. Stay Clean, prevent Overheating, dress in Layers, stay Dry. Carry snacks and water. No Fuel = No Heat. As your body dehydrates your blood thickens and becomes harder to push through constricted blood vessels. No Water = No Heat. Physical activity produces heat but requires fuel and water to do so. Test your sleep system and clothing choices before you go. You would not jump from an airplane with a new design of parachute that has never been tested. We are all different and react to the cold differently. Find what works for you before you have to rely on it to keep you safe. Cotton Kills because it absorbs moisture and steals heat. Yes, we all were dressed in cotton as children. I spend months dressed in cotton coveralls which get wet when I have snow constantly falling on my shoulders all day. Synthetics just are not tough enough for my work environment so I wear Carharts. Cotton jeans wick moisture from the bottom up the leg. If you are in 0 temps the amount of moisture on the ground and in the air is low if its 20 degrees your wet to the knees in no time. We seldom played outside from the moment we awoke till the moment we went to sleep but thats what we do on a campout. We dont have a warm house and dry clothes to change into at a moments notice. Having cotton next to your skin or as an outer layer increases your risk. Damage from moisture is highest in foot wear. Permanent damage to the blood vessels and tissue of the foot (Trench foot) can begin after as little as 12 hours at temps as high as 60 degrees. Stomping your feet when they are cold is the same as putting your hand on a table and pounding it with your other hand, yet we have all done it. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Lisabob, "Can it really be a simple and safe as all that in sub zero temperatures?" Yes IF you are proprerly trained and prepared. Because you have questions about "quinzee" building and confort I'm led to wonder if your 12 year old has been properly prepared for this outing. Consturcted properly a "quinzee" (hollowed out mound of snow) can be warmer than a winter tent. http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintshel.shtml Surf the net for detailed instructions on construction. Basically you pile up snow about 5 feet high and let it settle for about two hours. Then you insert 18 inch long sticks into the mound all around the perimeter about three feet up. Insert more at different spots around the pile. Leave about 6 inches sticking out. These are guides so that while you are digging the inside chamber you can guage the thickness of your walls. When you hit the stick you stop hollowing out and leave 1 foot thick walls. Dig in 18 inches and then angle up so you are not crawling the whole time. Care needs to be taken to avoid over heating and excess wetness while excavating your house. When fully hollowed out use a hiking staff type stick to make two holes at the floor level all the way thru the outer wall about 1 inch diameter and one hole about three feet up on opposite walls. These are vent holes for air. After you have been in the quinzee for a while your breath and heat will cause the formation of a thin ice sheet on all the walls creating a windproof shelter. Use a plastic bag filled with your gear to plug the entry hole while you are inside. The inside temp should remain about 32 degrees even in sub zero temps. This does take a lot of time, should be done by two people working together,(no one sleeps alone)and requires a complete clothing change after completion. Remember Cotton Kills so leave it home. Use twice as much insulation beneath you as you do above. Closed foam works best. Ridged house insulation 1 inch thick seems to be the most popular. LongHaul

I became a Colts fan as soon as I knew what a football was. Johnnie Unitas is my all time favorite player. I had a helmet with his number and a poster in my room for ever. Side note Pittsburg drafted Unitas out of college but cut him before the season started. He was a walk on tryout for the Colts in 56 and lead them to back to back Championships in 58 and 59. I lost my faith with the team in 1984 when Bob Irsay left Baltimore in the middle of the night, team in tow. Being from Chicago I now root for the Bears unless they play the Vikings at which point Im neutral. With the Colts having the #1 offense and the Bears the #1 defense I think we can hope for a good game. DA BEARS !!

I agree totally with Mollieduke. My wife works with BDHD children so I have some second hand knowledge from that and as Ive said in other threads my two sons suffer from ADHD. Children respond to set rules, rules which are known in advance and handled as rules, without anger or emotion. As MollieDuke said, use a deadpan delivery. This is not open for discussion or interpretation; you have done A so now I must do B cold and impersonal. This puts the child and the parent in the position of deciding what to do next. If this is a medical condition in need of care it should be dealt with. If this is a parenting deficiency the consequences need to be realized. Either way this one child can not be allowed to control program for the group. LongHaul

We don't go to those lenghts in Illinois or in Michigan. Lightning closes Aquatics but not other areas. Severe weather sends everyone back to their campsites but not indoors. Even our Cub Scout camp sends us back to our camp sites but indoors. Probably local council decisions. LongHaul

As an AYSO Soccer referee I am advised to immediately stop the game upon hearing thunder. If a second report is heard within 20 minutes the game is cancelled. It is said that lightning may strick out of a clear sky within 10 miles of an electrial storm. As a water front staff person our rule has always been to immediately clear the water upon hearing thunder. Again if a second report is heard within 20 minutes the water front is closed. Observed lightning closes the water front immediately. Nobody wants to close the water front and stop the boys from having fun but who wants to explain why x number of youth were electricuted because we didn't want the boys disappointed? milwscout580, you use the phrase "stay off the water" as opposed to stay out of the water". This makes me think you are referring to boating rather than swimming. Our water craft are aluminum except for the sail boats which have aluminum masts. Scarry places to be in a lightning storm. LongHaul

I, on the other hand, refuse to stop using "Safe Haven" but also use "Controled risk". I see "Safe Haven" as a YP term and "Controled Risk" as a planning and preparation term. Safe HAven applies to how we interact with each other and the idea that each of us is safe from mental or physical abuse for other scouts. We organize outings with physical safety and well being in mind along with physical and mental growth. Going on a ski trip can address "Safe Haven" but must also address "Controled Risk". People die on the slopes as one SM in my District can unfortunately atest.