LongHaul

I don't see the problem with the fact that different faiths would have different requirements for their particular badge. Cub Scouts have had religious requirements right along. Webelos Badge requirement 8 gives the option of earning the religious badge of your faith and provides a number of alternate religiously based options for those that dont, cant, or already have earned it . I think it isn't a matter of uniformity as much as it is a matter of religion never having been a Boy Scout requirement and adding it now would seem like another attempt to placate the religious right. Why BP didnt choose to include religion in his original publications is a good question. Maybe some of our historians can answer it for us. LongHaul

Starfleet didn't cheat. It designed a simulation to teach cadets that there are times when you can't win and you have to cut your losses. What do you sacrifice? As presented the cadet was to realize that one could not save the frieghter, save their own ship and avoid an armed conflict with the Klingons. What you deciide to do in situations like that sometimes determines how many next of kin letters have to be written. When you find yourself in a fire fight and can't reprogram the computer you'll wish you had learned what to to in school and not with bullets snapping past your head. LongHaul

Even though I have a lot of great memories surrounding practical jokes, snipe hunts, and the like as young scout I do not allow them in my troop today. I am torn however in the reasoning which leads to this position. They stole a piece of his innocence and his belief in the kindness of other people. is the exact argument which was presented to prevent my showing the YP videos to my troop. Should we not allow talk of Santa, the Tooth fairy, and Easter Bunny among Tiger Scouts for the same reason? How about God? Many believe that that is taking advantage of the innocent and nave controlling them thru fear. Do we stop magic tricks which are meant to deceive, card tricks which are meant to exploit your gullibility or innocence? What would the forums response be to asking if telling all prospective new scouts and their parents that unless they are willing to have the wool pulled over their eyes occasionally they should not join this troop? Thin skinned need not apply! Wouldnt that be in keeping with the Oath and Law? LongHaul P.S. Kirk didn't actually beat the Kobayashi Maru senario, prior to his third attempt he surreptitiously reprogrammed the simulation computer to make it possible to beat the "no win" situation. He cheated! and was given a commendation for it. How un PC? Or was it?

Never let a good idea go to waste. Passed mreep's link on to the team and they came up with this 2007 update. http://arrowheaddistrict.hoagys.org/pdf/FirstClassFirstYear.pdf LongHaul

Aquila calva has the answer, though there are variations in wording. "Which path would the other guard tell me leads to safety." works in my senario becasue I didn't have a "yes or no" stipulation. Either way you do the opposite of what you are told. The honest guard will indicate the path to death becasue that is what the dishonest guard would do. The dishonest guard will indicate the path to death because he is dishonest. Does the fact that Aquila calva chose to Google the answer rather than work it out say anything to anyone else? So many of my scouts will by new computer or video games and then seek "Cheats" so they can beat it. They don't want to solve a problem they want the answers. Which at times can be a good thing but sometimes getting there is part of the fun. They don't want to learn to play guitar they want to be able to play the guitar and give up after a few lessons because it takes to long to master. Is the pace we set today to fast? Instant gratification gets in the way of discovery some times. LongHaul

We use bigger tents as I've said 5 or six to a tent normally. You get rowdy or hurt the equiptment you stay home next campout and do dishes on this one. As for two to a tent the only time I've heard of that being a rule is in cold weather. Nobody sleeps alone so if a scout goes into hypothermia his chattering teeth wakes up his buddy who wakes up a leader. At Okpik this extended to staff. Warm weather or particularly backpaking trips one to a tent is fine. We do own some two man eureka domes and some timberline A frames but the large 12 by 15's are easier to haul, only need three and easier to keep track of as far as servicability. Had too many campout where we discovered missing cover flies or tent stakes or broken zippers. This way if your patrol tent gets busted everybody sleeps in a busted tent. LongHaul

Need clarification. The question to ask either guard is, "Will the other guard say their path leads to safety?" If the guard says yes, then that is the path to safety, otherwise it is the path to certain doom. When you say "their path" are you referring to their in terms of the person you are asking or is their ment to indicate the other guards path? LongHaul

Here is a link to some usefull Webelos stuff including a Visitation Check list. Ask yourself how your troop stacks up. http://www.circle10.org/programs/scout_transition.html LongHaul

Should have posted this right away. Instead I PM'd EagleInKY Sorry! http://www.circle10.org/programs/scout_transition.html

kb6jra, You may be able to decide who is telling the truth and who is lying but that would not tell you which trail leads to safety. Don't assume that the truthfull guard is standing in the path which leads to safety. LongHaul

adc294, Unless you can accept that some forum members have personal agendas and dont allow facts or truth to get in their ways; unless you can accept that any thread is subject to being hi jacked as easily as a 60s era jet flying south, then youll probably end up leave us again. We are a diverse group even when it comes to scouting principles and how to interpret written policies. When facts and arguments cant be dealt with, twisting the definitions of terms is a popular tool. A very good brand of Scotch, back in the 60s, had For the Discriminating Man as its slogan. Today the very word carries a negative connotation even though most of us practice it daily. I always told my sons and every member of our troop to stay away from drug users, alcohol users, gang members and similarly minded individuals. This is by definition discrimination but we tend to ignore that fact. One Nation under God.but whos God? why do we have to choose? Ever consider the possibility that God is the same God for everyone, we just use different names. We decide that God expects certain things from us, usually based on what we have been taught or what we have learned others thought based on their writings. Doesnt change reality either way, just how we perceive reality. Our Nation isnt being torn apart by God its being torn apart by man. People who havent accepted that killing everyone who doesnt think like you do doesnt have any effect on the validity of your beliefs. LongHaul P.S. In Scouting, because are religiously diverse we must accept certain restraints. If the group you are in is NOT all of one faith then naming God is inappropriate. Calling upon a particular diety is inappropriate. When there is the slightest doubt don't name names.

Ive been reading this thread and not posting because I am really divided on the topic of pranks. I was a scout in the 60s in Chicago same as OGE. Our troop did Snipe Hunts at our summer camp each year. Unlike OGEs troop everyone got involved from the JASM on down. The older guys had people dressed in all black with high test line with snipes tied to them hidden in the trees or bushes. As you walked quietly along snipes would shoot across the trail. One guy would have a pillow case in his hand and be shaking it violently so it looked like something was in it. What was in it was a snipe secured by mono filament and a soon as you tried to look in the bag it would jump out and disappear down the trial. We had fun with it and I miss those days. We had smoke benders made of galvanized chimney pipe to give to scouts that came looking for one and followed them back to their camp to see the look on the prankers face when the prankee delivered as asked. Today its not so easy. As Beavah says todays kids are a sheltered lot. What I found to be funny as an 11 year old isnt funny to these kids. I lived right across the street from a prairie half a mile square. We played with snakes and lizards and creepy crawlies all summer long. Chased the girls with them on every occasion, they always ran even though most of them had caught the same things themselves at some time. Today kids are really terrified of simple daddy long leg spiders. Ghost stories are not even told anymore in my troop because kids have nightmares. Sometimes I think they are missing a lot of fun but most times I think that the old pranks are no longer funny because the kids being pranked are not the same. I guess the real question is should we try to teach the sheltered to be more thick skinned? Should we accept them as they are and not seek to make them like us? Should they try to make us more like them? This used to be a lot more fun when I wasnt the guy in charge. LongHaul

In another thread as they say the topic of how honest and dishonest people would answer a question came up. This reminded me of a brain teaser I heard in high school. I've since heard it in many variations this is one of them. You are fleaing down a path ahead of a forest fire when you come to a fork in the path. Three men are standing there, one in front of each path guarding the way , one at the end of the single path you are comming along. The man in front of you says "One of these paths leads to death, one leads to safety. One of these guards will always lie one will always tell the truth. You may ask one question of one of these guards recieving one answer. Assuming that you wish to live what would your question be? LongHaul

Back in the 70's we had an SE here named Joe Kline, he got himself in trouble padding the unit numbers. He did some good though. He made several TV commercials which ran on local Channel 9. One of them keeps being referred back to by old time scouters. "My name is Joe Kline and I'm Scout Executive for Chicago Area Council. I can't guarantee that one of our scouts won't drop out of school, do drugs, or stick up a liquor store. But I'll give you odds on it! I'll win." We do have a few that slip after they leave us, we have some that we don't reach; on the whole we make a positive difference. It hurts to have to face those that missed the message; we feel sometimes we should have done better. Many of those that did get the message feel that way about things in their lives because of us. I hope these boys learn a lesson from this and that it doesn't come at too high a price. LongHaul

What the last guy said in capital letters. What is attracting the boys and parents to your Pack is program. They see a well run Pack with a program the boys enjoy. You can show others how to do it but unless they are as enthusiastic as you are it won't help much. Tell the DE to come to your Pack meetings and Committee Meetings and take notes. That way the DE can see to it that the District Training Team has the opportunity to use your success as a teaching tool for new Pack Committees and CMs. Saying that your recruitment is too good is right up there with I don't want to go to that Camp because; "The food's too good." "The beds are too comfortable" and "There's is just too much fun stuff to do!" LongHaul

My relatives lived on a farm in Wisconsin. The grammer school was in town, which had three main streets, one with churches, one with the feed and grain and a lumberyard and one with the post office, hardware store, 2 general stores and 5 bars. The high school was 20 miles away. If your looking for 11 to 14 that's grammar school and if you can get boys into the schools which serve the other 4 towns you need to use them. Calling each boy or parent can have positive results but the boys can sell a fun program better than the adults. LongHaul

The requirement, as Calico Penn wrote "in another thread" as they say, is that you must have at least half of the active youth members present. If the SM considers the new scouts as active then they count. Yes they have a vote just as a newly turned 18 year old. They can abstain but a candidate must get "more than half" of the votes cast to be elected. Don't know what others might say but I would address the troop before the election and elplain the purpose of the OA and the importance of it's members being elected by non members as well a fellow OA. I would tell them that if they felt they were not in a position to judge whether a candidate exemplified scouting and promoted camping then they might consider waiting until they did to cast a vote. Most of all I would stress that it was not a popularity contest but a statement to all the other units in the area that the ones we chose for membership exemplify what we see as scouting ideals and campership. LongHaul

As Webelos to Scout Transition Chair I've gotten a lot of boys that chose to drop out of Scouting to give it another try. Most often it was with a different troop than the one the rest of the den went to or that they first went to. Beavah is pretty much right on here though, if the parents hit it off badly with the adults leadership you road is harder. Still going to a different troop has worked. The hurdle I see here is the prarie is trying to get them back into a specific troop and is working with a small group. Sending out letters to parents highlighting program for the year is good having it come from the youth members is even better. Just how small is this "town" can your patrol leaders contact these boys one on one and invite them back, explaining the changes and "fun" to be had? National still says that the number one recruiting tool you have is your scouts. LongHaul

Eamonn, Thank You for the reference. While I have read the GTSS line by line I have never studied it to the point that I can quote it accurately. I actually don't remember ever seeing that line in there but it's in every old copy I still have. Never thought of consulting the GTSS when this came up in my troop. While I can understand the safe guard I wonder why National would want to involve the council. LongHaul

Eamonn, I don't doubt what you have said but would like to know where you got the line about the SE having to be informed if a scout has his membership revoked. Having been in the position of having to do it and aceptting the possibility that it could happen again I'd just like to be clear. Second does that hold when the CO or CC refuses to accept a boy or adult for membership? LongHaul

LyndaJ, Taking a picture of someone "out behind a tree" and taking a picture of someone inside a latrine or shower area are looked upon very differently today. Agreed, that back in the 60's when I was a scout it may have been funny but today it is a felony, at least in the state of Michigan. Before I took over as SM we had an "incident" at camp involving this very issue. One of our scouts told the SM that while the scout was sitting on the can someone had taken a picture of him. Our Kybos have a screen area about 6 inches wide at the floor level. Upon questioning a few of the older boys we found that this was not an isolated incident. A quiet discussion with the SM from the troop which shared the Kybo resulted in the admission that one of his scouts "had a history" of this type of behavior. Cameras were found and destroyed before the Camp Director could be notified. In the State of Michigan this is considered a sexual offense and every adult has to sign a form stating that they agree to abide by Michigan law while at camp. When the Reservation Director was informed, we had a meeting among the adults involved and only because we could 100% assure him that the parents of our boys would not make it an issue was he agreeable to not calling the State Police and having the boy, his SM, and the boys that destroyed the "evidence" arrested. I walked out of that meeting feeling that the Reservation Director and the Camp Director needed to seek therapy for being sex-a-phobic. After speaking with another leader who is an attorney I learned that our actions could have resulted in the Camp being closed by the State of Michigan. Stealing your skivvies while you in the shower and running them up the flag pole is one thing, taking a picture of you while you remove them is another. Is it worth becoming an accessory after the fact by not reporting.? LongHaul

Beavah, You have been on a toss away the rule book trend for a while now, something happen we dont know about? Why have rules and by-laws if we dont intend to follow them? If the adults cant be bothered to go thru the steps and do it by the numbers why should the boys? LongHaul

Supervision and Discipline are the corner stones of the administrative end of program. You can have dedicated, completely trained and experienced Supervision and the Discipline of a Buddhist Monk but if you dont know the material or arent reaching the boys with it you program fails. Its easier to keep them in line when they want to stay in line. IMO discipline should be managed by the SPL/PLC and SM/ASM not the troop Committee. Discipline is not synonymous with punishment as such the Troop Committee is not around to discipline a scout at a meeting or on an outing. The TC should be consulted in matters of expulsion if only as a matter of courtesy. The SPL/PLC should have a set of conditions of membership so to speak along with consequences for not following them. Youve done A so now B is going to happen. I helped our Youth Leadership develop such a code long ago and each SPL since has had the opportunity to amend and discuss revisions. There has been one, as a result of my having to expel a scout for deliberately setting himself on fire. Sometimes you dont see the need to make certain things against the rules until after they actually happen. LongHaul

Praire, Headache could also be caused by you turtleing during the night. This is what we call it when you try to pull your head down inside your shoulders. It compresses the neck vertebras. I use a balaclava at night because it wont come off like a hat and covers the back of my neck as well. They are easily made from a piece of fleece. http://www.shelby.fi/kaava/403/403.php Has a workable pattern, but I just cut two pieces in the shape of the total outline and sewed them together on a machine. I extended the part that covers the back and chest to get better coverage and also used some extra material to put piping around the face hole. Make two and use it during the day as well. LongHaul

I is my understanding that TLT is based on the premis that SM has taken Woodbadge for the 21st. Century. It is supposed to dove tail NYLT which is supposed to follow the "new" woodbadge course in approach so that the WB trained SM will have the knowledge to work with his NYLT trained SPL. The weakness of the TLT course is why I'm looking for support materials. The old video with Richard Attenborough and John Wayne is pretty out dated but it's better than the TLT course for a new or newer SM. (just my opinion) LongHaul