LongHaul

Lisabob, Id like to address your questions and concerns about Transition. First Id like to pass along a link for the Webelos Transition material posted by Circle Ten Council in Dallas TX. http://www.circle10.org/programs/scout_transition.html While I dont agree 100% with their approach I find that it is a good place to start. Look at the letter to be sent to the parents of the New Webelos II den. If you have a District web site you could have it posted and each CM or WDL could make copies for all their boys instead of mailing them. One thing I like about the Circle Ten approach is that it cover all 12 months of the year. As I said a few weeks ago when I presented my Webelos Transition talk at our Roundtable, February is the half way point in Transition for the Graduating Webelos IIs. The second leg, though shorter than the first by several months, is no less important than the first. If the troop receiving these new Scouts does not have a plan to help them adapt to the Boy Scout Program then their Transition stands a 40% chance of not being successful. In my area charters are renewed in January so by next January most of the boys that are crossing over will reappear on the charter because they dont drop out in mid Scouting year. Those that drop will not come back in September of the 2008 year, this means that they will disappear from the charter in 2009. I consider them not to have Transitioned. Those that do transition and still drop out of Scouting usually do so when they enter high school. Transition at the Troop level starts with the Bear scout/parent orientation which the ASM in charge of working with Packs, the SPL and the Den Chief explain to the boys and the parents what the differences are in the Webelos program. The parents need to transition as well as the boys if the troop they end up in is to maintain a strong parent involvement. You say that as part of the Membership chain you cant infringe into the Program chain. I say make them stop you! If Transition is going to be solely a Membership consideration then you might as well toss in the towel now and save yourself a lot of work. Without Den Chiefs you already know the difficulty in building relations with a troop. Without troop involvement BEFORE crossover, transition stands little chance of being more effective than it currently is, Im told by my Council membership advisor that we loose 40% by crossover and another 40% by the second September in a troop. 8 ou t of 10 Boys that are active Bear Cubs do not come back for the second Scouting year with a troop. Once you have a plan and your Membership Chair is onboard with it announce it on the web site and at Roundtable. Why as a member of the District Staff are you not allowed to organize events? If you can convince the troops to participate in a campaign to make graduating Bear Cubs more aware of what awaits them as Webelos and Boy Scouts why should the Program people object as long you are not competing. One of the Districts Im in runs a Webelos Woods every September, they have good troop involvement and invite only Webelos Scouts. Dens get to see a variety of troops from their immediate area in action. Another District runs a Scout-O-Rama in May and invites anyone that wants to come, especially the general public. Troops come out and put on demonstrations. My troop did an outdoor cooking demo one year, I did bacon and eggs cooked in a paper lunch sack, my SPL and another scout did Ice Cream in a Dutch Oven, another patrol demonstrated desserts cooked in Dutch Oven Ovens. Our dinning fly is a 10 by 20 and the display side was shoulder to shoulder with people. Feed them and they will come . Troop participation and advertising is the key to this type of event. Not only can it attract new scouts it helps let the community know we are here and are a positive influence. The Training Team in your district also needs to be onboard with transition. When we train new Webelos Leaders we emphasize the transition aspect of the program. New SMs and ASMs get a dose of troop involvement with the surrounding Packs particularly in the form of Den Chiefs. SMs, CMs, Troop Committees and Pack Committees must be told at training about their roles in the transition process. This is not a one person Webelos to Scout Transition Coordinator job. LongHaul

pargolf44067, I've got family in Cleveland I think I'll move in with them! I've been fighting for years to get even the basic lists of Pack numbers and locations. Actually geting CM, DL and Webelos Scout info would be like I'd died and gone to Transition Coordinator heaven. LongHaul

Ok I'll bite. How is it my fault that I can't change the way a 10 1/2 or 11 year old thinks? If from birth they are told what to ewat and where to sit why is a lack of effort on my part that they don;t want to decide for themselves in the Troop? Kids are dreamers but after 1 year, 18 months, 2years someone has to take the leadership role or the Patrol Method and Boy led goes right out the window. If your starting with a well established boy led troop it's not as hard but what do you do when all you have is 10 1/2 and 11 year old new scouts who are now 12 and 13 year olds and want to play game boy or PS2 rather than hike? Hike? You mean like walk instead of being driven 3 blocks to school. Breaking a mind set isn't that easy without a model. LongHaul IMO the only requirements a boy should be working on, as group or as a prearranged class, is swimming requirements. Second Class 7 First Class 9. Summer camp is supposed to be fun not a cram course.

I don't know if I miss the old days as much as I miss the old ways. Even my own sons who have been hauled out of the hose as often as I can manage would rather sit in front of a machine and play games. When I "had" to stay in the house it was a like a punishment. As kids we'd be out playing in the rain, the harder the downpour the more kids that were out getting muddy. Today they haul computers around to set up multi links so 4 or 5 can play against each other. Pick up games and "street" anything is unknown. Tried introducing stick ball on a campout because of limited space and the challenge of hitting a ball just a bit bigger than a golf ball with a broom stick was looked upon as being cruel. LongHaul

Eagledad, All I wanted to do with the military thing is point out that we normally dont send people into the middle of things without some basic training. The troop of my youth, for which my father served as SM for a few years ( I had 4 SMs between 1960 and 1970) cant be compared to the troops of today for several reasons. All of the Adults were male, ( this imparts a different dynamic and attitude among the group than we have today with female leaders) all of the adults except my father, who lost a lung to pleurisy in 1939, served in the military, scouting was actively supported by almost every organization in the community. Our numbers Nationally reflected that. Scouting was by no means cool as far as we wouldnt wear our uniforms to school before den meetings but none of us were ashamed to admit being boy scouts when we were in High School. We didnt graduate from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts until September so you didnt attend summer Camp till after you had been a scout for 10 or 11 months. You didnt camp with or interact with the troop until you joined. We practiced close order drill as a Simon says game. The chain of command was enforced absolutely. You would not dare approach the SPL unless you or your buddy were on fire! Joey was a great guy and you could talk to him as a scout at any time but business went thru the chain, period. We did uniform inspections by the book and with a hard eye, shined shoes and clean finger nails. The American Flag was treated like the icon it is, flag etiquette was very important. I wanted to be a boy scout, I couldnt wait to be a boy scout, I wanted the responsibility of being part of planning and organizing the troop calendar. Today the boys want instant gratification. They dont want to have to sit down and develop a 12 to 18 month plan so that reservations and logistics can be worked out. . They wish they could play the guitar but have no interest in devoting the time to learning the guitar. A mom told me that she had signed her 15 year old up for Drivers Education in school. After 2 class room sessions the group went down to get their learners permits. When she picked her son up at school that day he was disappointed that she would not let him drive home. Those willing to do the work are in the minority. Today these boys want the program handed to them prewrapped or with little left to do on their part. What lesson can we all take from these discussions? If Boy Scouts is to survive as an organization we must attract 11 to 18 year old youth. If that means going from boy run to adult planned and organized I will be very sad. One of the greatest things about Scouting is the opportunity for a boy to learn to lead. To function as a member of a group without having to be the leader. To be able to approach adults as equals on a topic and expect that the youths views will be respected. When this becomes a DAD and Lad club or a prepackaged entertainment group Ill hang up my uniforms for the last time. LongHaul

Requirements other than a willingness to serve NONE. Recommendation is to take District Committee Training Workshop run by council. One problem with this forum is we use terms but don't give explanations. You referr to Trainer Development Conference. To me that was a course where someone tried to show me how to use flip charts and make felt boards and inter mix "get them up and move them around" segments with the "listen to me talk" segments. Why would someone need to take this more than once, or once every "training is now available in power point" material update. Our District Committee Training Workshop basically focused on the responsibilities of the position and goals for that position. Which Council Area you fell in Membership, Training, Program, Fundraising etc. You then recieved a folder full of utopian outlines which said if you stood up and asked for help adults in your district would be pushing each other out of the way to sign up, and these willing soles would then jump at the chance to attend yet more training. LongHaul

Beavah, Did you get the email I sent to you privately? >> We used a NSP approach until September and then the boys grouped as they liked and new patrols were formed or existing patrols grew.... The troop is only 8 boys now and the TC is even smaller<< I may be misunderstandin'. But doesn't that seem like an experience that would indicate that NSP/age-based patrols doesn't work all that well? Your first response starts with something that was in place before I arrived and then jumps 12 years to the present and blames everything in between on the NSP concept. My inability to get the scouts to assume responsibility and take control has nothing to do with the NSP concept. The high jacking of my troop by a bunch of power hungry, untrained, and as far as program was concerned uninvolved parents has nothing to do with the NSP concept. Next you conclude that troops existing before the 70s and 80s dont use the NSP concept and that those formed after 1990 do. I said nothing on whether any of these units use a NSP approach only that older troops have a better patrol method concept in place. You go on to claim that troops formed after 1990 use the NSP method by and large. Maybe in your area but not in mine. The use of the NSP varies across tenure lines and depends on adult understanding and acceptance and the degree of training these adults have. In the troops in my area formed before 1970 that use the NSP concept it was introduced to the PLC and SPL by an adult and adopted as part of the program just as changes in rank requirements or merit badge requirements are implemented. We are going to try a new approach, lets make it work. Those that were formed after 1990 that use it have, as you say, always used it. The failure to get the boys to accept the change from the old way to the new way is no different than my failure to get my boys to accept leadership. Because I couldnt get them to accept boy led does not indicate that boy led is a bad concept? Because our troop was for a lomng time adult organized and grew in numbers does not mean that adult organized is a good method. Because troops fail to achieve success with the NSP method does not indicate a flaw in the method only the implementation. In Another thread you describe a unit of 120 boys that uses the NSP approach and a unit of 50 that doesnt. Should I then conclude that if the unit with 50 used the NSP method they would be a unit of 120? Before you say they could and choose not to read this again so you see that its not relevant to the argument that NSP or no NSP is the cause. LongHaul

The instant I hit the send key on my last post I realized how big of a mistake I had made. I don't want this thread hijacked particularly by me! If my question as to the purpose of the Webelos program seems as if it will take us down a new road please start a new thread and let's keep this about transition. MY BAD LongHaul

Id like to comment on the notion that the Webelos program is not a prep school for Boy Scouts and that transition should occur after the boy has crossed over. We dont wait until a 17-18 year old child has actually enters college to begin preparing them for it why would we do this with a 10-11 year old making as big a jump in program? Is the only function of High School to prepare a child for college? Why would the fact that the Webelos program was designed to be a bridge between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts be objectionable? Being that the Webelos program was designed as a bridge between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, the new Webelos Den leader training should stress that and make the comparison between the difference in how the Webelos program is approached from that of the Cub Scout program and how it dovetails with the Boy Scouting program. If the focus of the Webelos Program is not to adapt them to Boy Scout ways of thinking just what is the purpose or goal of the Webelos Program? LongHaul

Eagledad, As a scout in the 60s our troop had about 40-50 boys divided into 5 regular patrols and a Senior Patrol consisting of the SPL, ASPL, Scribe, Treasurer, Quarter Master, and JASMs. We employed the vertical patrol method and it worked just fine. We lost very few scouts before they turned 14 and entered high school. New scouts were taught by who ever was handy at the time, and troop meeting instruction was done within patrols. Our SPL ran the meeting entirely. My father was SM and he usually only said one word Joey and made the hand signal for circle around me. Our SPL, whos name was Joe, would call the troop to attention and the meeting would start. After the opening the adults would leave the room. At the end Joe or one of the Senior Patrol would knock on the door to the room the adults were in and my dad would come out and do a Scoutmasters minute or talk about something that was coming up. The troop I served as SM for in the 70s was well established and I just picked up where the previous SM left off. Scouting died in our area very quickly, between 73 and 75 we lost about 95% of our units in our District, mine was one of them. When I returned to Scouting in the late 80s we started a new troop and pack. I was Bear Den leader and moved up to Webelos Den Leader with my son. I was a MC to the troop also and as a new troop we only had a NSP. The troop was adult led and organized for the first several years. As each new group of Webelos crossed over our patrol reorganized because the original group were pressed into leadership roles. It took 3 years before we had 2 patrols not counting the Senior Patrol. The SM, ASM, and most of the MCs were scouts in the 60s and we were trying to reproduce what we had been used to as Scouts ourselves. The problem was that we had no existing experienced scouts to act as role models. Getting the boys to accept the responsibility and work of running the troop was difficult to say the least. The boys knew that if they didnt do it and adult would see that it got done because we didnt want to loose the troop. We grew to a troop of 28 boys. The Webelos crossed over in Feb/March and had been out with the troop at least three times beforehand. Most of the boys were from the same school and parish and knew each other. We used a NSP approach until September and then the boys grouped as they liked and new patrols were formed or existing patrols grew. I took over as SM in 95 and lost the original group of scouts to college. The younger boys were not willing to accept the leadership roles necessary and we struggled for 5 more years trying to get a functioning Senior Patrol. Nobody wanted to run for SPL and the adults were lost as to ideas for sparking them. They wanted the fun but not the work. An influx of Webelos at this time due to the folding of some other troops in our area not only flooded our youth ranks it flooded our TC. The parents were not trained and had no scouting back round and the Committee meetings disintegrated. The new boys were looking for a Webelos III type program and with the resistance of the older boys to accept responsibility things fell apart fast. The troop is only 8 boys now and the TC is even smaller. Thats my personal experience. As a District trainer Ive visited most of the troops or had sit downs with the leaders and find that those that have existed since the 70s and 80s have a better patrol method in place than do those formed after 1990. Most of the newer troops are adult organized and claim to be boy led because a boy reads the plan an adult wrote. The NSP concept works well in established troops that have boys able and willing to lead. Vertical patrols work in newer troops because there is little patrol method to begin with. Adults do most of the skills instruction. My experience is that the older troops grow according to the amount of new scouts they can attract but the newer troops are stagnant in numbers. They get a bunch of new scouts in February but by the following January when we recharter their numbers have not changed just the names. Lisabob, >> First, if a troop is "typical" then they will likely lose between 30-50% of the new scouts somewhere during the first year anyway,

First up the Money Earning rules and regs pertain to UNIT fund raising and not individual fund raising. If the money earned goes entirely to the scouts doing the work then you dont need a permit even though it is a group effort. If the unit gets a cut you are supposed to follow the rules and submit the application to council. Second up Lisabob has focused on the farm clean up part. I have relatives that own a working farm and spent summers there from 7 to 15 years old. Lisabob does not exaggerate in her concern for the safety of the 10-11 scout. If this were a farming community these boys would be working their own farms, chances to work as hired help would already have been looked into as farming generally doesnt provide a lot of cash flow particularly for younger boys. So it seems these boys would not be experienced labor. I worked construction for a short time and it is no place for little kids that are not aware and focused on the safety aspect. On the surface Id say without more info about the back ground of these boys and the experience the unit has with this type of project Id caution against doing it. LongHaul

Back in April of last year I started a thread about when Webelos to Scout Transition should start. The thread dissolved into a discussion of Webelos Camping and rules surrounding it. Id like to return to Webelos to Scout Transition. In another thread a forum member said that it was his observation that transition programs, with the scheduling of den/ troop activities and such, dont really work. As Webelos to Scout Transition Chair Id like to ask for insights into how Webelos to Scout Transition is handled in your area. How is it approached? How well does it function in terms of preparing Webelos to become Boy Scouts? Is it a Roundtable topic for Boy Scouts or just Cub Scouts? LongHaul

I find that the biggest critics of NSP, FCFY and Transition are those that didnt like the concept when it was introduced. They never really tried to implement the idea and never promoted it among their peers. They tend not to fully understand the concepts and National does a lousy job of explaining these ideas after their initial introduction. There are no magic programs that work 100% 100% of the time. But the effectiveness of an idea in practice is dependant on the amount of effort that goes into implementation and the degree of belief that the idea will work. Look at any professional sport you can name and the different teams which are involved. They all use basically the same plays, its the ability to execute that makes the difference. The belief that they CAN execute the play. The determination to adapt when things go wrong and still focus on execution of the idea. Many things just dont work because we just dont try. LongHaul

>>Lets also remind ourselves that the BSA still looses most of its scouts during that same time period. Why? Because the shift of going from the security of to the unknown world boys taking responsibility for themselves is a dramatic shock and scares the devil out of these boys. Turns out it doesnt really matter whether you are in a Patrol of friends or in a Patrol of strangers, becoming self-dependent is scary.<< If the poster meant to say from the security of an Adult run program or something to that effect, then these boys must be coming from a Cub Scout Pack. If the boys are scared or there is a culture shock upon crossing over then the Webelos to Scout Transition program was a failure. Most likely it was implemented too late to be effective. We dont wait until Christmas of a boys senior year to begin teaching him the things he will need to be successful in his first year in college why wait till September of the Webelos II year to begin transition? A successful transition program ensures that the boys are ready for independence at the new scout level. They have camped with this troop and are secure in their safety. Being afraid of the dark is something totally different and can not be addressed by NSP / FCFY / Vertical Patrols or anything other than inner growth. >>Assigning a boy to a patrol is telling him who is friends will be, who he is to bond with. Nah. If a boy comes in with a couple of friends, put 'em in a patrol together. Putting boys in a patrol gives them a smaller community where they can make new friends, and bond with people, though, sure. No more traumatic to a kid than gettin' assigned to a homeroom in school. Lots better, actually, because a good PLC will try for a "good match." << What happens with the Webelos Den of 7 that has been together for the last 4 years? The PLC decides who your patrol mates will be and that is how we teach boys to form bonds and patrol identities? Next year we reshuffle according to the number of new scouts? >>Assigning the PL and APL to a group of new scouts tells them straight up that A.) they are incapable of being a real patrol and B.) all that talk of a boy run program was in fact just talk. Yah, same for assigning 'em an adult ASM-NS and a Troop Guide, eh? No other patrol has 'em. Fact is, we all recognize 11 year olds aren't yet ready to lead or camp on their own. Put 'em with a real patrol, and they get to see boy run in action, for real... and get to see themselves some day being "cool, like their PL".<< The NSP doesnt have an ASM assigned to them the TG does, NSP dont camp as patrol without the rest of the troop so they are never on their own Seeing boy run in action is always better as a spectator than as a participant? Why cant they aspire to be as cool as their TG? >>Putting a new scout into a functioning patrol immediately is the same as taking a new recruit and sending him into combat as part of an existing squad. What happened to basic training? Yah, can't buy the military analogy here. To do Basic Trainin' that way, you need a Drill Sergeant - an older, more experienced enlisted man who tells you exactly what to do.<< Think of it this way, does every patrol with a New Scout go into slow motion? Explain each step and skill as it is being done? Does the PL explain what he is doing and why for every move? Does each patrol member explain each task, its importance and the proper way of doing it? Instead of a Drill Sergeant you have a TG that works with the new scouts so that they understand all the jobs of the patrol. They are taught how to do things step by step as equals with their patrol not as the new kid that is trying to keep up. >>Why do we need or what is the function of Instructors if each patrol trains its own? Not everyone is a teacher. Yeh mean your patrols don't have/do their own instruction?? Good gracious, why in the world not? We're not school, we don't need many teachers. Just teammates showin' new guys the ropes.<< Instructors give the first exposure to a skill so that instruction is uniform. If every patrol did its own version of instruction the skills will become as variant as language. The patrol members working with each other to hone skills to the level that a scout feels ready to be tested is not the same as teaching the skill from the start. Home schooling is great if those doing the teaching are capable of doing it. Everyone was home schooled at one time, society developed the centralized education concept for a reason. LongHaul

What I need here is for some one, actually everyone to explain what the Patrol Method is and how to implement it. As I see it; Assigning a boy to a patrol is telling him who is friends will be, who he is to bond with. Assigning the PL and APL to a group of new scouts tells them straight up that A.) they are incapable of being a real patrol and B.) all that talk of a boy run program was in fact just talk. Putting a new scout into a functioning patrol immediately is the same as taking a new recruit and sending him into combat as part of an existing squad. What happened to basic training? Why do we need or what is the function of Instructors if each patrol trains its own? Not everyone is a teacher. LongHaul

Beavah, Please tell me where does it say using the New Scout Patrol Method is NOT the way it is supposed to be? Where does it give any recommendations on how it IS supposed to be? Putting scouts anywhere, according to what Ive read from training manuals or BP writings is NOT the way it is supposed to be. The boys are supposed to form a patrol and the patrols are supposed to form a troop not the other way round. Please explain what you see as being The Patrol Method. Who in their right minds puts all the experienced lads together, then grabs one at semi-random to make him "leader"? Have you ever really given the concept a chance? Rotating PL once a month and giving each boy a chance to sit in at the PLC , run a patrol meeting and organize the patrol for the monthly outing is a good way for them to gain experience. How does a boy get OTJ training for PL your way? FCFY is not a method of advancement. Read thru the material in the thread about First Class First Year, currently under this one. It does not promote group advancement, it does enable every boy to have the opportunity to be exposed to and work on all the skills required to become a First Class Scout. Whether the scout chooses to present himself for testing and actually attain First Class in the First Year is up to him. If the troop program does not address the need for every new scout to have an opportunity to pick his patrol site, serve as his patrol cook, cook over an open fire, and all the other things needed for advancement how is a boy supposed to accomplish it? How do you achieve these vertical patrols without reorganizing patrols every time you get new scouts? Unless you are loosing as many as you are gaining you have to form new patrols which must require reorganization and the break down of patrol identity. Having 3 or 4 new scouts is one thing but 14 how do you maintain any form of Patrol Identity. LongHaul

Kudu, In reading your last two posts I get the feeling that you find the METHOD we call ADVANCEMENT to be BAD SCOUTING, because it is required. Let's be clear that BP actually wrote NONE of the BSA material or requirements including the OATH and the LAW. So in fact we have never done it the way BP did it. BSA made Reverent a point in the Scout Law not BP, he only had 10, and it has been a point in the Law since the beginning. Being that it has always been part of the BSA approach why not some attention to it? Look over the other 11 points and look carefully at the rank requirements over the years. All 11 are covered in some form or another in skill acquisition, POR, service projects, etc. If we just assume or hope the boy is seeing the God part why not the LNT, or First Aid or Cooking or Camping part? Does making the boys smile, one of BPs points of the Law if I remember, and whistle constitute BAD SCOUTING ? Reminding them to do it is like explaining a joke No? LongHaul

Mr. Allen, Sir, I stand corrected. Called my oldest and had him check the text and both the double tan and the later 8th editions have the information you sited. National removed the material as being requirments for advancement but still had it in the Handbook. My memory once again has failed me. LongHaul

Brent, I meant no offence in my post. The 8th Edition you referr to is the "First" 8th edition with the double tan cover and quarter page picture. The "Second" 8th Edition (which I think only lasted for 2 printings) had a full page picture of a "Multi Ethnic" group of scouts and the cover was not the only thing they changed. No finding direction w/o compass no measuring distance or hieght, no tracking, no backpacking, even in your printing look at fire by friction pictures no explainatory script. Should we all have stopped teaching these things? National brought it all back in 79. Wearing only the shirt is also a question, I know many troops that don't "require" or "promote" complete uniforming. I always wear a complete uniform or no uniform because that is what I became used to as a scout. If I tried to enforce that with my troop ( for info purposes I'm involved with two seperate units 30 miles apart. I'm SM for the "south" unit and a MC for the "North" unit with which I'm new. When I use the phrase "my troop" which it most certainly isn't, I'm talking about the "south" unit for which I'm SM) anyway I'd loose the boys trying to demand full uniforms. LongHaul

The First Class First Year "program" I'll call it, is set up to fill the instruction portion of the troop meeting. The troop guide and the PL for the New Patrol have an instructor "teach" the patrol the different skills as a patrol while the rest of the troop is doing thier instruction. Unless you separtate the Experienced Scouts and the Older Scouts by patrols I wouldn't separate the New Scouts during instruction. The two guides and PLs will have to keep records for their respective patrol but instruction can be done as a group. LongHaul

Brent, Im affiliated with the troop which has never discontinued the Leadership Core concept and the wearing of the Dark Green shirts. This troop didnt adopt that uniform they just never stopped using it when National did. As for changing Advancement to keep boys in Scouting National does this repeatedly. In the mid 70s National changed from an outdoor program and went to an urban approach. The Boy Scout Handbook showed a picture of a scout talking to a policeman and the script read something like When you are lost ask for directions. This was the total content for finding your way, no compass no map should all of us have just chucked our Silvas? I had a problem with the Green Shirts when I first arrived but after a while decided it wasnt worth taking the chance of disrupting the dynamic of this troop. Since I have been with them they have had two boys receive the Eagle Rank. I was not present so I dont know for a fact but these boys must have worn their green shirts to their respective Eagle Board of Reviews. Seems at least that our District Advancement people dont think it is a deal breaker either. NONE of this has any bearing on whether the practice is in keeping with National policy, it is not. The question I asked was, in a sense, how important is it when viewed in the context of a functioning troop. We had an outing over Presidents Day weekend and there where 9 high school aged boys there running the program, half of them were juniors and seniors. In 15 years the only time Ive seen 9 high school aged scouts from my troop was at an Eagle Presentation Ceremony for our first Eagle Scout. Getting boys to accept responsibility and do the job of planning and running program has been a struggle for me all along. In this troop the boys cant wait to get into the LC and sit down and plan program. We can wear the overseas caps if they still fit or the red berets, I can wear my old leaders uniform light green on light green with the silver SM patch and still be OK because they were acceptable at one time. The only reason Dark Green shirts on Boy Scouts is unacceptable is because someone at National decided that it set the wrong image within a troop to have two different uniforms. In this troop it has a positive effect and the uniform parts employed where just as legal as my green on greens or the red berets. LongHaul

It's called Patrol Identity not clique. The seven that have been together should stay together. Yes they will have a head start on building a team because they were already a den. What kind of a New Scout Patrol program do you use? Rotate PL responsibilities? Do you have a functioning PLC? How you handle this situation depends a lot on the infastructure you already have in place. Bottom line in my book is that a group of 14 is too large, they need to be split in to two groups. Check out the thread just below this one currently. First Class First Year Jeff Thompson from Atlanta Area Council developed a very good program for New Scouts. LongHaul

I suspect that idea (religious diversity) would be much like sex education in public schools. Children at the age we are talking about are highly influenced and therefore are susceptible to learning things that their parents don't want them to learn. I do not believe that Scouting should hold that responsibility; it's not like learning different ways to cook a hamburger. We can discuss Citizenship as long as we dont say anything bad about Bush? We can discuss 911 as long as we dont bring religion or politics into it? We can discuss respect for each other at the Venturing level but dont mention gender? We can discuss personal safety and internet safety as long as we dont identify any real dangers? I am constantly faced with what parents dont want their children to learn about. If my religion is based on faith BUT that faith must be based in ignorance of any other concept then how do I live in a world with others and not be forced to kill everyone not of my faith? How can I possibly prevent my children from finding out that everyone isnt what ever I am? Parents are responsible for answering the questions arising from Ya but Johnnies Mom says the is/ is no God? Dont play with Johnnie! doesnt solve the problem or address the question. If we can't tell them WHY we have to lock them up becasue there is just too much information out there and it is just too accessable. I was raised Roman Catholic. First thing they taught us was there is only one God and that we should not worship anyone else. OK Im good with the concept. Next they taught us God comes in three parts. Confused but still listening and trying to put the pieces in place. Then they taught us the Hail Mary and told us to pray to her. Time Out! Wait a minute! What happened to one God and dont worship anyone else? The back of a hand and being forced to kneel in the corner iced the cake for me and I was 5! I spent many a Saturday at our library looking for answers but didnt know which books to look in, or what questions to ask. The older I got the bigger the library I looked in. Today I can go online and search religious libraries around the world and just ask questions and get resource material to look at. The stuff they taught us just does not stand up to fact and history. When saying that this is what we believe and acknowledging that not every one believes the same we are accepting reality. If we can pass our faith along to our children then thats our problem and shortcoming. Ignorance doesnt work as a teaching tool in a world of instant information. We are discussing a core value of the organization we are members of. If Duty to God is so important that we will go to the Supreme Court to fight for our right to protect it why dont we require it for rank advancement like we do Citizenship and Personal Fitness and Community Service. Duty to God, to Others , to ones Self are supposed to be important why are only the last two addressed in the skills and experience we seek for rank advancement? You have to believe in being a good citizen and prove it thru education and action. You have to believe in personal and physical fitness and prove it thru education and action. You have to believe in helping others as a positive ideal and prove it thru education and action. You have to believe in God but well take your word for it? LongHaul

OK so your particular faith does not have a religious award how about and either or like with Eagle required merit badges. Something along the lines of the Webelos Badge requirements. d. Do two of these:  Attend the mosque, church, synagogue, temple, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs. Tell your family and your Webelos den leader what you learned.  Discuss with your family and Webelos den leader how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and what character-building traits your religious beliefs have in common with the Scout Oath and Scout Law.  With your religious leader, discuss and make a plan to do two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things for a month.  For at least a month, pray or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, temple, mosque, synagogue, or religious group.  Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.  List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs. The question of this thread as I see it is; Duty to God is a core value of the program why isnt it addressed in any requirement for any rank within the Boy Scout program? We address every other core value at some point in rank advancement. Seems conspicuous by its absence. LongHaul

If you are the person in charge of organizing this Camp/ Day Camp then as Beavah says find some one that knows the state laws on camp licensing and heath care. If youre a leader that is attending this Camp/ Day Camp with your boys ask yourself if your concerns are real or imagined. We trust them to see that the kids dont drown, we trust them to see that the kids dont skewer each other with knives and axes in Campcraft, we trust them to take kids out in the woods for 5 mile hikes, is seeing a med form really an issue? We do a lot of things in Scouts that push the envelope and meds usually top the list. In Illinois it is illegal to be in possession of a controlled substance without a valid prescription IN YOUR NAME. So technically you can get busted transporting your childs meds home from the Walgreen. I know this sounds crazy but it's the law. My sons are ADHD and are on Ritalin. My wife was in an accident and the contents of her purse ended up all over the front seat of the vehicle. When the State Police saw the bottle of Ritalin she carries for when the kids are not at home when meds are needed, he made a big deal over it. The States Attorney agreed. The judge finally dismissed the charges and told my wife she can only carry enough meds for the length of time the boys are away from home and that each set of pills must be in bottles with current prescription info for each child and the child must be present. You dont need meds for children that arent there. Getting the charges expunged was more important that arguing the stupidity of the situation. At camp all the meds are locked up in a leaders tent and we use a meds check list. The problem is we are not licensed by the state to dispense controlled substances. A minor in possession of a controlled substance even with a prescription needs to have adult supervision. It all goes to the concept Beavah addressed in his "Fear" thread. How afraid should we be that doing something right for the boys will land us in court or even jail? As for having youth serve as chief medical officer for Day Camp why would you even think of doing it if you didnt feel the youth was capable of handling the responsibility? If you feel that the person in charge can handle the responsibility then age should not be a factor beyond statue and BSA Policy. Health History was mentioned, is this the Med Check where the med forms are gone over at camp? The question is can you trust the youth staff to accept the responsibility of the position, back where we started. As for a child being comforted better by an adult Id have to ask who brought the child to the Health station in the first place? Our boys usually arrive with an adult and with the YP rules usually three other scouts. How far away time wise is emergency assistance? Just what level of First Aid needs to be maintained? LongHaul