LongHaul

In another thread under the Open Discussion title a forum member quoted the AP story about the recent missing scout incident. "Adults involved in the Boy Scouts are taught to follow 'Two Deep Leadership' which meandates that at least two adults be present for all camps, trips and outdoor activities. The organization prohibits one-on-one situations between a scout and an adult. "But John Akerman, scout executive with the Raleigh-Durham area Occoneechee Council said it would make sense to leave one adult behind with one scout if the other scouts are with other adults on an activity." My question to the forum is "How were you instructed to interperate and apply the No One on One Contact rule?" Just what specific conditions are used in reference to "within the view of other adults and youth"? With the number of stories concerning the current incident and the conflicting information being offered I like for us not to use this present case as an example. Instead explain how you were taught, at leader training or YP training, to apply this rule. LongHaul

One of the most important things I learned in school was to define terms before you begin a discussion or debate. Just what do you think FCFY means? Does it mean that all scouts advance in lock step? A demonstration is held the boys are then tested the same night and requirements are signed off? Does FCFY means that every new scout is exposed to the training necessary and provided with an outdoor program that provides the opportunity to advance to First Class within one year? I guess the real questions are how tough are we when it comes to skill competency, and does your program provide the opportunity for the scout to advance to First Class in the first year. LongHaul

You are absolutely right Dan. It was clearly the FCFY approach which prompted him to walk off without a buddy or permision. Further more the things he was taught while working toward First Class in such a short period obviously played no part in his survival of this ordeal. I'll bet if we dig further we will find out this troop uses the deadly NSP approach as well. Some people will just never learn. LongHaul OH BOY just read the other article on the CNN site and it refers to Michael as being a Tenderfoot Scout not a First Class Scout which is what the SE said was Michael's rank. Who cares! DOWN WITH FCFY!!!(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

The religious requirement for Cub Scouts was signed off by a parent or Dl. Should a CM discuss religion with a boy, depends on CO policy actually. The WDL should depending on which option the boy chose for the religious requirement. In Boy Scouts it would be the boys religious advisor or anyone designated by the SM that signed off. For boys of Scouting age the religious advisor is usually a parent and later a member of an established religion picked by a parent. How many boys do any of us know that are of a different religion than their parents? IMO bringing the word to or witnessing to a boy is the option of the CO. If it is CO policy i.e. LDS, Church or Religious organization sponsored units, that should be spelled out but doesn't have to be. Having a unit adult take it upon them selves to discuss religion should be avoided unless the belilefs of the boy are formost. If I were to discuss Roman Catholic Doctrine with one of my Roman Catholic boys or Christianity in general with a Baptist boy no problem but addressing the unit as a group should never be sectarian in nature. LongHaul

So, and I am not trying to be smug here, if you have a good District Committee and a group of District Volunteers that know the program and can get the job done you don't need to pay $70,000+ for a DE & DD. So no FOS as long as you do good Popcorn Sale to run the Council, wait with out DEs and DDs.... AH! an endless circle. LongHaul

Lisabob, Do the students get to pick who the faculty will be? When teaching positions open are the students to be consulted? When someone is up for tenure do the faculty think the students should get a say? No, Universities are not student or faulty run. Put are we at the point where if I don;t get to pick my superior I won't support that person? Is the problem what this new Dean does, has he been given the chance to be judged on his own merit or was he found lacking by default? Let's think about "boy run" for a minute. Should the PLC have a say in who the CC is? Should they get a vote on who sits on the TC? After all these are very important positions and can impact the decisions of the PLC as much if not more than the SM. How about COR? If this is truely boy run why does the PLC need "permission" or "consent" from the TC to do anything? The boys know who they like and who they work best with but are those the things that should decide who the SM is? As has been asked what is the role of Scoutmaster? If I have three equally qualified candidates and I'm told that if I pick the wrong one the boys will quit the troop, I have to ask what kind of scouts these boys are and are they mature enough to be asked for imput in this decision. Input from the boys is good, the fact that this PLC has asked to be a part of the process is great but framing things in the context of "boy-led" does not make them right or advisable. If your worried about losing boys if you say no think about what will happen if you say yes and they make a bad choice and you have to take that authority away from them next time. Give they the opportunity to be heard but interviewing candidates is beyond their positions. The SM does not work for the PLC. LongHaul

Ok, when I referred to the disention from within I was trying to point out that these people were enrolled in Scouting. The problems didn't seem important enough to keep them from joining. Having been a Cubmaster you know that Cub Ranks have a requirement that is religion based. Does that make it a core value, depends on how you want to define core values. If the same requirement was written into the Boy Scout ranks why would it be any more difficult to administer for the adults or pass for the boy? As for my useing the word fun rather than interesting is a big difference and I was inaccurate. As you so well point out the two are not synonomous. The DPR does not affect me so I can't see the big deal about it. I think if it is that big of a deal then the person with the problem shouldn;t be involved with an orgaization that they have that big of a problem with. LongHaul

Thank you Lisabob, understand I mean no disrespect nor do I wish to undermine your relationship with or appreciation of your Professional staff. Id like to look at your list a moment. Our DE never fills in for any volunteer at RT or anywhere else. His help in recruiting volunteers for District positions is to tell the committee it must fill the open positions and giving us names of people that like titles but not work. What you see has helping district committees set goals and develop program has become micro management in my district. My district is the result of combining two former districts. Each of us had an annual fund raising event. One district targeted businesses and the other Scouters, Families and friends. The business were asked to come to a $50 a plate dinner, hear a presentation and write a check. The other was a silent auction where people were asked to come to a dinner priced at the level of the same meal at that restaurant. By that I mean if you came to the place we were having the fund raiser and ordered the same meal you were given by us youd pay the same price as your ticket. We made our money on the silent auction. Who provided the things to be auctioned? Some businesses as advertisement, some were personal donations from attics and basements which were suitable some were services of scout troops or individuals. I remember a troop which offered snow removal and leaf raking for 12 months at the high bidders home. Bottom line is when we merged we were told we could only do 1 of the 2 because thats how Council wanted it, and were brow beaten for years because our collective receipts were 12 to 15 thousand less than our previous combined total. Like you said getting calls at a DEs convenience asking if Im doing my volunteer work or asking me to do more is not what I want in return for a $35,000 salary. I want too but I just cant see justification for these guys in my area. LongHaul

Ive been staying out of this thread because it has become so circular and non productive. I doubt whether anyone besides Lisabob could reask her question from page one without looking. If we are going to continue this thread lets at least restrict ourselves to accurate representations. GB just said The DPR is the only religiously based requirement in BSA. Not true, read my post on page 2, we have had religious based requirements in the Cub Scout Program all along. GB state there is no universal application of religion to the program wrong again-same reason read the Cub requirements. If what GB is saying is that religion is not a part of ALL the BSA programs then maybe he did re read Lisabobs question. His contention that if it not part of every aspect of BSA then it should not an aspect of any part of the program is what this is actually all about. Imposing ones will upon others against their collective wills. Packsaddle thinks it would be fun to watch if religion were made part of the program, guess packman has never been involved with Cub Scouts. How has the Cub Scout program been surviving all these years? What have these "alternate religion" types been doing to fulfill the Cub requirements? This has very little to do with religion or core beliefs unless imposing your will upon others is a core belief. I would never volunteer my time nor enroll my children in a program which expresses views that were categorically against my principles. The fact that so many are voicing dissatisfaction from within, tells me that they really dont have a problem with BSA values. What they have a problem with is not being able to resist an opportunity to engage in the ever growing popular past time of forcing your views on others against their will. Its a power thing. LongHaul

>>Maybe when the elected SM does something that might displease the PLC, the come back could be ? "We voted you in and we have the right to vote you out!"

Im still interested in the details of what the pros are supposed to be doing. Mentoring another pro doesnt mean anything to me because mentoring someone that does nothing is not a $60,000 a year challenge. Im trying to find out what my pros are supposed to be doing as opposed to what they are doing. Getting the FOS team the info they need is always done but getting me the list of troops and packs in my district so I can do Webelos Transition has not happened in 7 years. As far as getting locations for district activities, we wish, equipment is borrow what you can and patches must be ordered by us, pre paid and then we get reimbursed after the event. Event registration goes directly to council upfront but costs are reimbursed for the most part. Very large expenditures can be fronted by council if you have all the paper work done right. I just can see why we need a DD and a DE for 90 units, which includes crews, troops and packs, with what they actually do. Right now they are going around and having a meeting with all the COs one on one. What they are talking about is a mystery because the council provides nothing to the CO. With the current state of affairs most of us think it is a campaign to influence a vote on accepting the executive board which takes place on Thursday. If you want to know if someone is doing their job do you ask the person doing the job or the person that is supposed to be befitting? If you want to know if the customer is happy do you ask the salesman or the customer? If they were having one to one meetings with the unit heads to see how CO/Unit relations were before the CO one on ones that would be a different story. The last time we had a campaign like this some newbie went in and read the contract to a lot of COs telling them what they were supposed to be providing the units they charter. We lost 5 Cub Packs and 3 troops with in a 3 square mile area. 2 others changed COs. As for the $150 off setting Summer Camp costs, they have sold all our camps so we dont have, or soon wont have (we are still fighting the last sale) any in council camps to subsidize. When you say advise and support the district and council events you see this as a plus, my experience is that pro involvement just makes things harder. They want projections for budget and materials and the like but will take registration money the day before an event. How can I possibly plan when I dont know until the program starts how many are coming? You should do this and you should do that followed by Im too busy doing this other to help doesnt fit the bill. I know that my council is not the poster child for how it is supposed to work, thats why Im looking for specifics so I can speak from knowledge not frustration. We once again have a new DE and like all new DEs he is agreeable and full of promises. Id like some frame work to refer him to when I ask for things like the number of units in my district, their meeting locations and days of the week, possibly a contact name. The resent posts about Total Available Webelos took the wind out of their Its sensitive information, we cant just give out everyones name and contact info. Ive got plenty of stuff to use when we complain, what I want is info to use to help improve our (the district volunteers) quality of service to the program. LongHaul

>>Much to their credit, our pros put together a plan to make sure no one got overlooked.

There are several threads discussing or relating to this same topic and it is hard to know if those involved in one thread have read things posted in the others. Taking all the threads into account we have heard that the volunteers do the fund raising, the volunteers seek opportunities to start new units, the volunteers do recruitment, they organize and operate District and Council events. Just what are the Professionals supposed to be doing. As Lisabob just said what is the difference duty wise or responsibility wise between a District Director and a District Executive and where does the Field Director fit in? Just what field services are the pros supposed to be providing? Eamonn spoke about having pros work up at camp. That idea was brought up here in CAC as a method to get the non professional thorns out of our summer camp program.(another thread) The reasoning being that professionals are paid for a 12 month period and during the summer months there is little fields service being rendered. The Salaries have already been paid so camp budget gets a break. Why did it cost Eamonns camp $22,000 for people that were already getting paid? The problem I see isnt finance its experience, just because Im paying a CPA a salary to keep my books doesnt mean I should have that person do my advertising presentations to new clients because the books are caught up. Echoing Lisabob, could anyone specify the job descriptions for the DE, DD, FD positions. These are the ones we, as District people and unit people, would be interacting with when we did interact with a professional. Be specific about field services and serving the units and co ordinate and advise upon the district program. Ive heard a lot of fancy expressions but am troubled to explain where the money goes to the parents of my scouts. I quit doing District FOS presentations when I couldnt look the people in the eye and tell them their money was well spent. One forum member wrote that the cost to sponsor a boy was $150. To me this translates into; it costs $150 a year per boy to run the BSA program above the unit level. Just what does this include? Can we itemize this so we can look at getting a decent return on our dollar. Having a great scouting program run by volunteers shouldnt cost $150 a boy. LongHaul

Cubmaster Randy Didn't get anything from you, tried to PM you using a different thread but no luck. Any suggestions? Anybody else having trouble with the PM function? I've gotten quite a few recently from different threads so I know they are not getting dumped on my end. LongHaul

BrentAllen, When CAC had 26 Districts, 26 District Executives and 26 District Directors along with all the other paid staff they didn;t need to solicit the parents why now with only 7 Districts are the Families such a big part of the fund raising picture? LongHaul

The hot water /cold water myth is a misunderstanding concerning frozen water pipes in a home. The hot water pipe near an outside wall will freeze before a cold water pipe right next to it. Has to do with the particles in the water having been broken down during heating and providing a medium for ice crystals to form. Aftert writing the above I googled "hot water freezes first" just to be sure and found this! http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/19/4/4/1#PWdoe3_04-06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect Go Figure! Other myths concern boiling eggs in a paper cup and cooking bacon and eggs in a paper bag people will say it can't be done but it can if you know how. LongHaul

My problem with professional scouters is that I have spent my whole Scouting life in the Chicago Area. Even as a scout, when my father sat where I sit now in terms of us and them I remember the heated discussions at our dinner table by grown men talking about why the volunteers couldnt do it they way the volunteers wanted to they should do it the way Council wanted even though Council wanted nothing to do with it! This ranged from district programs to repairs to camps we all used. In recent years I have met several professionals that were indeed worth every penny they received and more. Problem is they are in the minority. Field services in CAC have dropped to almost nothing. I actually dont know why we need our professional staff in most cases. As a group they are incompetent because they are mostly new at their jobs, our turn over in DEs has to be one of the highest in the country. The approach they have is echoed from the words of our former ASE The problem with BSA is the dammed volunteers. It would be interesting to see a time study on the duties of a DE in my council. How much time is spent on fund raising, professional staff meetings, starting new Cub Packs, and attending District roundtable and committee meetings for the purpose of presenting the party line. Im sure that the time spent in supplying actual field services, recruiting in schools for existing units, getting materials necessary for District committees to do their jobs, and providing program materials and support ( you have to have a Professional Advisor for any district wide or council wide program) would pale. Just how would the program at the unit level be affected if DEs disappeared tomorrow? As I said in the other thread much of this is endemic to a business where the primary duty of the paid staff is to solicit their salaries from the unpaid volunteers. LongHaul

If not FOS how should Councils raise funds? How about soliciting the businesses and high income philanthropist element in the council like they did in the 50s 60s and 70s? When I was a scout we went door to door in uniform asking everyone for a dime. Our slogan was 10 cents from every house will build our future. Today solicitation of funds by youth is forbidden, solicitation of funds by adults is forbidden if the money is intended for the unit. Units and individual scouts are required to earn their way. Council on the other hand isnt bothered by the a Scout is Thrifty concept and adults are not only allowed they are encouraged and in the case of District Committees required to solicit funds for council from the parents of the scouts in the units. I cant ask the parents of my scouts to give money to the troop but I am supposed to ask them to give money to the council. Now dont start with troop fees and all the ways to get around the no solicitation policy, Im talking about what the policy is. Repeatedly I hear that BSA is a business. Name me one other business where the primary function of the paid staff is to solicit their salaries. One other business where the personnel that are directly responsible for producing the product, maintaining the product, delivering the product and maintaining and ensuring a positive customer base is not only not paid but are asked to personally contribute to the salaries of those that are paid. These non paid individuals being a primary source if revenue for the Corporation both Nationally and locally. Do I still believe, Yes otherwise I would stop putting on this uniform. Do I put my stock in blind obedience NO. I believe in Scouting as a concept and the program as a tool. I believe in democracy and our republic form of government. I believe in the need for and the support of a well trained and equipped STANDING armed forces. I just dont have much respect for or confidence in the current administrative bodies of any of these groups. LongHaul

BrentAllen, Didnt realize you had posted a question, cant get the last 24 hour thing to work. If I took out all the boys that were in the troop because their parents wanted them to be I would not have a troop. Or actually Id have such a small troop we couldnt use the patrol method, there would be little if any youth leadership because there would be no one to lead, and it would become a Camping Club that wore scout uniforms. With a constant level of 6 to 10 boys you have little POR availability. My hike reference should actually have been a walk reference. Most of these kids wanted Car camping to the extent that they didnt want to go to our Council camp because you had to carry your gear in about 1/3 mile from the parking lot. Heavy troop boxes could be brought in by camp truck but individual gear was carried. Our Summer Camp is set up so two sites share a bathroom facility. The troop sharing our site drilled a hole in the side of the bathroom to run an electrical cord out to the Games tent which had a computer, monitor, TV and Nintendo set up in it! My guys were not the only ones that wanted to travel 200 miles to play video games. Half the guys were into walking all over camp to do activities and half wanted to just stay in site. The walk to the dinning hall and back three times a day was more physical exertion than most of these kids did in one day. As for Woodbadge I was a bear in 1998, and have taken an taught most of the training available except for Powderhorn. I wanted to be a scout, I couldnt wait to be a scout, I long to be able to grab 50 pounds of gear and food and disappear into the mountains or forest for a week. My first trip to Philmont with these guys, they brought Magic Cards to play once we got to camp each day. Side Hike were most definitely four letter words. LongHaul

Cubmaster Randy, Did you recieve my PM? If not PM me and I'll try again, mine may have ended up in your bulk mail. LongHaul

FOS is a dictate from National. It is National's idea, that's why it's Nationally implimented by all Councils . If my Council is bound by National's policies for funding Council salaries then saying that National is not soliciting my troop parents for "their" salaries is splitting hairs. If that's the best you can do I've made my point. I'd be VERY surprised if you didn't know exactly what I meant before you posted your remark. LongHaul

I think what is unscoutlike is the methods currently used by National to solicit their salaries from the parents of my scouts. The amount of time spent on fund raising makes the benefit from any field services rendered to expensive IMO. In the 50s 60s & 70s we didnt bleed the units to fund professional staff. Back then we had a program which drew 5 times the boys it does today, I guess if what youre selling isnt selling you need to milk those that still believe. Wells run dry. As for the SE being able to replace the executive committee at will I suggest you get your facts straight. Councils are registered as not for profit organizations in the state within which they exist. This is the reason for the paper work which caused this thread to be filed. States have laws governing not for profit organizations, these not for profit organizations have by laws. I know that those by laws have been recently changed by National as a result of the fighting going on in my Council. The executive Board is voted upon by the voting members of the council. If a slate is voted down twice then National decides who will fill the positions, BUT if the slate is approved by the voting members they can not be removed by the SE at will. As I say recent events here, which have led to civil action in and out of the court room, have caused many in my council to read all the fine print. It has also caused National to make the two vote rule to avoid voter take over. When the SE becomes dictator Scouting will cease to exist because those who keep it alive will stop putting on the uniform. LongHaul

In 1969 Base camp was located where it is now. It may have been more in the direction of the Tooth but definately not at Cimarroncito. It was two man wall tents but I can't tell you the configuration. My photos are to close range, boys and tents. In 69 you buried NOTHING. First breakfast out was oatmeal, we made everything we were given. After breakfast we asked the SPL what to do with the "left overs", he said bury it. Staff guide explained otherwise, we had to build a fire and spread the oatmeal very thinly on a log and burn it, then scrap the burnt stuff off the log and pack it out. (was lighter by a bunch) We completely burnt it at our next campsite in the cooking fire. In 69 we cooked on wood fires not stoves. Needless to say we took orders for food from then on--you order it! you eat it or carry it! We were asked not to even bury "emergency" bathroom visits on the trail because animals dig them up. Carried fresh eggs and bacon in a can after the first food pick up. LongHaul

Im with Eagledad here, we need a course to teach the adults about TLT. The old Scoutmasters JLT course had a syllabus and video which if a person previewed the video and read through the printed material gave them an idea of how to present the course. The new TLT #34306A is mostly wallet cards to give out to the boys describing their position. These might be better than the old 81/2 by 11 sheets but there has to be more. In talking with people that have taken the new WB it does not cover TLT. I ran a District JLT using the old course for troops that had only a few new leaders. As Eagledad said that requires adults to be trained also. Nothing is worse than sending a boy to training and having the adults clueless as to what he is bringing back to the troop and not willing to allow the boy to use his new training. The old course needed updating not eliminating. LongHaul

Overly Preparing? I'd say NO. Exposing Webelos to Scouting activities they are not mature enough to gain the full benefit from? I'd say YES. Example; My Council runs or used to run anyway (this year is in doubt) a Webelos I summer program at our local camp 40 miles away, this camp is a "Cub Scout Camp" for the summer. The Webelos I dens do most of the same things they did as Wolves and Bears, archery, BB gun, swimming (in a pool) except they work on Forester, or Outdoorsman, or Geologist as well. They also run a Webelos II camp at our Boy Scout Summer Camp 200 miles away. The Webelos II dens share the same Dinning Hall as Boy Scouts, get to ride horses, swim in a lake and do much the same things a first year scout would do. Argument has been raised that holding the Webelos II camp at our 4700 acre summer camp reduces the effect of a boys first year at camp as a Boy Scout and removes the carrot of "You'll get to go to summer camp" as a crossover treat because they have all ready been there. Jim Morrison upon being told the Doors would never be invited back to the Ed Sullivan Show "We just did the Sullivan Show". LongHaul