LongHaul

Sorry Dan I thought you were the psychiatrist in the group, my bad. I thought that long term use of Ritalin and the like had a bad effect on the Liver and internal plumbing, and that was why some Doctors took kids off for the summer. I left the decision up to my sons because I know how I felt while taking the drug and didn't want to be without it. It was a hard decision to stop taking it myself and only did so because I lost my heath coverage and had to cut expenses so my stuff went first. I just question 2 day Med Holidays as being ineffective. As you said if it's a holiday because of side effects then maybe the parents, boy and doctor need to look for alternate preparations. If a boy is taking the medication because his internal chemical balance is messed up, reaching in and giving everything a stir every 5 days seems counter productive. LongHaul

Text Book Approach; The patrol is the base unit of the troop. Patrols come together to form Troops. Troops do not divide mambers up into patrols. Example the USA. States came together to form the union. We do not redivide the whole to create seperate smaller elements. If Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana,and MIchigan got together and decided to redraw state boundries around Lake Michigan I think the Feds would want a say even though we want to protect State's rights. Looking for the "buttons" means the motivated wait for the ride alongs to get with the plan. What do we do with the "gifted" in the patrol while we are consentrating on the "slow learners"? Is it the responsibility of the 12 year old PL to find the button? The 14 year old SPL? the 16 year old JASM? The ASM for New Scouts? Does the ASM for new scouts go directly to the "ride along" or does he go through the SPL? PL? I ask these questions because I've had a tough time getting boys to step up and take responsibility in my own troop. Waiting for someone else to do it or accepting that what ever it is isn't going to get done or happen seems to be a popular attitude with my group. LongHaul

Sometimes we give an answer and sometimes we ask questions to help the person arrive at the answer themselves. What is the past practice of your troop? Does the troop allow realignment of patrols upon request? If the other six patrols came to you and said we want to do a "Fire drill and everybody change seats would you allow it? I go to the extreme because it is easier to identify the tolerance level. If you say yes the boys decide the make up of the patrols then Id say yes let the motivated group together and the ride alongs decide what to do. If you said NO then apply that to the current situation. Going contrary to established practice creates a special circumstance and that creates problems of its own. You let THEM do it. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Straighten me out here folks. This thread was concerned with the DRP an inconveniently named joining requirement of the BSA. One essentially must believe in the concept of God. Atheists don't and therefore can't join. Religion is what we do about or with that conceptual belief and religion has nothing to do with the DRP. We were talking about dropping or not dropping the DRP. We were talking about whether dropping the DRP would have any real effect as opposed to a definite affect on the Scouting Program. If we want to discuss whether Dan and his Wicca groups should be allowed to charter units lets spin it off so we can finish discussing DRP and do Dan and his Wicca groups justice. Just a thought LongHaul

Lisabob, How long did the Baloo course you took run? Ours runs from 9am to 5 pm. I don't see how we could do it in half the time and still "do it". Some of the training is a repeat and if you were taking Baloo in the morning and WDL specifics in the afternoon I could probably fit everything in. If you came for CM, DL,Pack Committee training your specific modual would not have segments on the Baloo outdoor stuff that were left out in the morning. But WDLs don't need Baloo it's only mandetory for Pack Camping not Den Camping. I'd love ideas on how to stream line the training but still train the leaders. I face the "time" issue constantly in attemptiing to get leaders to take training. LongHaul

I've got a question for Dan and other medical professionals. Is taking a child off meds for two days of any real value to the child? I took Ritalin while I could afford it and both my sons activly take Ritalin, I understand the long term concerns. I had scout in my troop that took Ritalin and his doctor took him off the drug for the summer months to give his system a rest. Clearing the system for 60 to 90 days I understand but 2 days? Does it...no let me rephrase...Can it really make a difference in combating long term use side effects? LongHaul

So what say we first, as Ed kind of suggested, define Diversity. Coming from Chicago, as I do, Diversity can be a positive or a negative depending on exactly what is being talked about. One of the things we are supposed to be doing is making the Scouting Program available to every available (qualified) youth in our area. Qualified intended as gender specific or age specific for the part of the program being discussed. If we are to make the program available to all available youth then there are youth that need special attention. In Chicago we have a far smaller unit to available youth ratio than we do in the communities outside the city proper. The youth of the inner city deserve the opportunity just as much as the youth in the collar communities. If we are to have Diversity in our council we must do something to make the program available to that segment of youth. The adult population of the inner city, when taken as a group, do not support Scouting with their time. They do not support the Scouting program even to the extent of making it available to the youth by getting them to meetings or events. So what is to be done? Urbanize the program to attract the youth? Hasnt worked so well in the past, we didnt attract the urbanities and lost suburbanites we had. Provide leadership and funds to establish units. Problem here has been that the family atmosphere does not reflect the scouting atmosphere. The boys dont get the support, encouragement or recognition from their family they need to benefit from the Scouting program. So what do we (National) do now? LFL !!! We achieve Diversity by creating a separate program. Here in Chicago we serve just as many youth proportionally in the inner city as we do the collar communities. You just wont find those inner city youth at any of the collar community functions and visa versa. Looks good on paper though. At my District Roundtable this week I recall one Afro American that being a female. We have many female Scouters and quite a few Latino Scouters. Our District events are shaded much the same as far as leaders go but we do have units that sever higher numbers of a Afro American youth than their respective adult Scouter representation reflects. What I dont like about this Diversity thing is mandating that X amount of your training staff must be. LongHaul

How about the "what is best for the boys" approach. "Is the Troop I'm with doing it right?" Answer "There actually isn't a right and wrong way to run a troop if you look at it as what is best for the boys." Do you think the way your troop is being run is best for the boys? I can tell you why the leadership of our troop thinks the way we do things is best for the boys. LongHaul

ASM915 I do know for a fact that the Eagle cut off can be extended at least to the age 21. It was done in a troop I was associated with. The question is when to apply for that extension. How old is your scout, how much time does he have to apply and deal with the extension application? LongHaul

ASM915 I do know for a fact that the Eagle cut off can be extended at least to the age 21. It was done in a troop I was associated with. The question is when to apply for that extension. How old is your scout, how much time does he have to apply and del with the extension application? LongHaul

Packsaddle my comrade in spawning appreciation I hadnt noticed that I had forgotten that, I thank you for bringing me back to the path as I love it (spawning) so. As a youth I searched and spawned, casting my bread upon many waters, but realized that for me spawning was best enjoyed when done repeatedly with the same woman. Maybe that is where the whole there is only one thing was seeded. Who or What or How ever this whole life thing got started I really like the way the spawning thing got set up. LongHaul

Back in the 60's when you went to Philmont you purified your water by adding iodine tablets. Our dinner for the night was Beef Nuggetts in Gravy over Mashed Potates. Beef Nuggetts went well but as soon as the mashed potatoes hit the water everything turned BLUE. Bright BLUE! I laughed at first but had a very hard time convincing the adults it was safe to eat. LongHaul

I've posted this before but it doesn't loose the laugh with re telling, you just have to picture the look on our little faces and imagine the stiffled laughter of the adults waiting for that look. Our patrol decided to make Mac and Cheese from scratch using on scout's mother's family recipe. We split the tasks of the meal up umong members of the patrol. One guy had salad, one guy had bread, we were doing rolls on sticks, I was in charge of the sauce. Each had his own part of the recipe to work from. After making the sauce it was supposed to be poured over the noodles and then baked. Yah you guessed it no one boiled the noodles. The first clue was the small amount of food in the dutch oven after the required 20 minutes cooking time. The next clue was the crunching sound as we sampled our fare. "My moms doesn't sound like this" is what broke the leaders restraint and sent them into full out laughter. We always had enought food around so we didn't go hungry but looking over the entire menu and recipe has stuck to this day. It was funny though. LongHaul

Hey Gonzo smackdowns can be informative but lets do that one in the other thread OK "The Atheists thing" has it's own thread now where we can all chime in let's leave this thread to the original discussion. Can I get an Amen? LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

I agree with the coed thing. I think coed Cub Scouts could work just fine, and Venturing seems to be doing great. Its the 11 to 14 year old coed group that concerns me. I just dont see 11 to 14 year old boys and girls being able to function in an outdoor, patrol method (lets all work together as a team), patrol outings without mandatory adult supervision (the father in me just passed out), type of program. As Adults I think we would have to be more fore ground and hands on than what we try to be in the current system. All the natural change and sexual awareness of the 11 to 14 year old age group would require a change when we look at youth led. Its your program but I cant let you out of my sight. I look at the repeated problem we have with summer camp staff that is coed and the endless problems a adolescence. Maybe if we went total coed that could change. LongHaul

Any chance we could take the "community standard" thing to it's own thread? I'd love to toss that around for a couple of pages but not here. Let's get back to the reason threads are closed and our views on that. Accepting that Scouter Terry gets to do anything he wants and that we all support him in that right. We can still respectively voice our own sides without being in dissent of Terry or the moderators. I went back to look at my early posts, mostly to see who it was that got tossed off the forum. I remembered the "problem" but not the actual members name. Threads were indeed rougher back then. Some didn't handle not understanding what another had written as well as we do now. Not all of us are English majors or writers and what we "read" in the post we make isn't always what others "read". I think as a group we have slowed down on "confronting" each other over misunderstandings of meanings. John-in-KC started a thread for Ed and Merlyn to have at it, neither picked up the gauntlet. Had such a thread been opened for Beavah and I and one of us had taken the bait should that thread have been closed IF or WHEN one of us started to........ What? Obviously if Beavah and I continue to return to that thread and continue the "smackdown" we are not offended to the point of stopping. If others don't want to watch thats their choice. "Well you shouldn't do it here" Why? If it's bandwidth or a burden on the Forum itself then by all means stop it. This forum is too valuable an asset and resource but if it's just that our sparing offends..stay away. Doing it here instead of one to one allows others to watch and like in WWF fashion toss a chair or tennis racquet into the ring from time to time while the two "polarized defenders of the way" have at it. When we silence people and sanction them for not conforming to our views we limit growth and understanding. Listen to all sides and decide what your course will be. LongHaul

Trevorum, Actually everyone who believes in any type of god(s) believes in my personal God. I was raised in the Roman Catholic faith, that experience (certainly not the church), has led me to believe that there is indeed only one God we just view that God differently. If anyone wants to discuss this let's spin a different thread and leave this one to the discussion of atheists and the Oath and Law. In the movie Gone with the Wind Rett Buttler is asked to swear an oath upon his honor as a gentleman. He smiles and says to the effect "As a gentleman? I can swear to that" The audience is made to believe that Mr. Buttler does not consider himself a gentleman and therefore has no problem with this oath. He still has personal honor however and would not want to swear an oath upon his personal honor that he didn't intend to keep, but honor as a gentleman no problem. Is he being dishonest? Is he being deceptive? Is he being Trustworthy? Packsaddle, my spawn till we die buddy,(that didn't read like it did when I wrote it. I hope you and everyone else will understand my reference) I didn't ask how the boy would live up to his duty to God, I asked how he would explain it like while trying to pass Tenderfoot requirement #7. I like your fraction analogy and will probably use it myself, thanks. Living with your personal views and understanding is different than living up to the expectations of others. Every requirement we have in Scouting asks us to live up to the expectation of someone else. Even if we are to take the boys word for every single thing, that degree of excellence becomes our expectation. "Can you tie a square knot?" "Yes" sign it off. I don't see this as being the level that we are at today in BSA. Swearing to do a duty that you dont feel even exists is not Trustworthy IMO. It's not living the Oath and Law in your daily life. Dropping the DRP and not changing anything else doesn't seem to me to be an acceptable fix. I think the Oath and Law as written are very good yard sticks to live a life by and don't think they should be messed with it word or in application. Alowing a boy to pull a Rett Buttler would be messing with the application IMO. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Hoping the other come here and let the other thread get back to it's original direction, I'd like to reply to Lisabob. Does no need to change the actual program include the Oath and Law? While explaining in his own words the meaning of the Oath and Law how would an atheist explain his Duty to God? "There isn't one so I don't have any, but I will take an oath on my honor to do it?" We would have to change that part of the program which has never changed since day 1. LongHaul

fgoodwin, From your initial post I thought the problem was that he didn't get permission from the PLC. Getting permission comes before writing the script. The PLC does not have to OK the script for the merit badge thats up to the MC. The situation you discribe tells me that he didn't write the script whether the PLC approved him to do so or not. LongHaul

You should be proud of yourself as well. You evaluated a situation and made a judgment call based on what you felt was in the boy's best interest. If, as you say, the boy felt bad about "side stepping" a requirement and that motivated him to address his fears then you have succeeded on two levels. This boy is and will always be better equipped to face the day, if only in his own mind, because of your involvement. LongHaul

First I would talk with the boy about having all the facts and knowing what to do with the facts. First if a special case was made it was by the MBC that awarded the badge not the troop. The boy should carefully read the requirement for Communications merit badge to be sure. I went on from here with a long explanation of what the requirement is but that is not what I see the point to be in this thread so I deleted it. Lets not look at trees lets talk forest. There will always be people that try to cut corners. There will always be people that try to get over or get by the requirement, be it scouts, school or life. We cant let their attitude, lack of character, and disregard for the Award itself influence our decisions or actions. I stopped at Life Scout because I didnt want to be associated with my troops Eagle Scout Patrol, they had become snobs and two where in the class with fgoodwins example. Biggest mistake of my life!! Tell the boy that he is not responsible for the possible wrong doing and that he should not feel that it diminishes the Eagle Award it only diminishes the boy that got it improperly. LongHaul

I thank OGE for taking the time to write out the official text. The question is how do we interpret that text? Trevorum states that he used an alternate requirement to allow a scout to advance and the scout later over came the disability. Does this mean the disability was not indeed permanent? I am NOT trying to critique Trevorums decision, he was there non of us were. My point is should the scout have been required to wait, ultimately he would have over come his "handicap" and would have been able to pass the requirement "straight up", as Trevorum put it. Possibly Trevorum's decision was the impetus which allowed this scout to overcome his disability. Personally I've never been asked in the capacity of SM to consider alternative requirements so I can't say what I did. I have been involved with other troops that have used alternative requirements and they are what prompted this thread. I agreed with some but strongly disapproved of others. LongHaul

Ekmiranda thanks for bringing us back to the purpose of this thread, which was to discuss your concern and that of ustbeeowl. One of the things that sometimes happens on a forum like this is that we read a post and respond but in the interim someone else posts. Our post then can be interpreted as being in response or in reference to the post immediately preceding it. This happened here and I failed to catch it. Dan replied to my initial post and I responded but in the interim SWScouter posted what I would consider to be the best response to my initial question. That response went unnoticed, at least by me, and things got distracted by personal cross talk and focus on specific issues to the exclusion of the main topic. Ustbeeowl has a genuine concern that video games are becoming an addiction. You have expressed a concern in the missing scout case that this boy may be crying out for help. Whether we believe we should follow the YP guidelines put out by BSA or not should be spun to another thread. Following the BSA guidelines, because no criminal activity is evident or suspected, we are supposed to notify our SE. As you have pointed out we are still human beings, some of us are still parents, we have emotions and concerns for those around us. You know what it is like to be abused and to live in an abusive environment, if you would or if you can please share with us how you feel toward or about those people that knew you were being abused or should have known you were being abused and did nothing. LongHaul

I was going to suggest what Ed did, make training mandatory but reflected upon training in my council and decided to think on it a bit. Introduction to Outdoor Leadership skills for Webelos Leaders is being offered soon by two different districts. One district is doing it as a weekend, Friday evening 7pm to Sunday morning 11am, bring a tent and camp out. The other district is doing it as a one day, 9am till 3pm, lunch included. Both classes will certify that the attendees are considered trained for C09 which is the code for this course. Yes the syllabus for the course has a weekend or one day option and that's what I would change. Make training fit the skill level we want the participants to take home. Offer introduction and advanced courses if necessary. Quality control for trainers and training courses, just cant figure out how to actually accomplish that. LongHaul

In another thread, as we say, a question was raised as to alternate requirements for rank advancement. I'm all for recognizing Scouts with disabilities, I was one. There has to be a line. What does First Class Scout mean? What does Eagle Scout mean? Alternate requirements IMO need to be used only when the scout could never complete a specific requirement as written. A scout in a wheel chair can't chop wood. A blind scout IMO can't become a 2nd Class Scout, almost all of the requirements would have to be altered. The alternate requirement option is under the control of the council advancement committee so my question isnt should A B or C be accepted as grounds for allowing the alternate requirement. Instead Id like to know at what point or for what types of disabilities YOU would ask for the exception. LongHaul