LongHaul

Scout are you saying the Constitution sanctions slavery? LongHaul

In response to ajmako's response to my post I'd like to say that "can" and "shall" are not synonyms and that just because I can do something does not necessarily mean I must do something. If you wanted to appeal the decision of the DAC to limit MBCs to 7 merit Badges what you'd have to appeal is the fact that you as a registered Adult volunteer were denied the opportunity to counsel a given badge solely because you are already approved to counsel 7 other badges. The DAC coming out and saying "I will not approve a MBC for more than 7 badges." isn't something that can be appealed to National particularly if the CAC upheld the DACs position. In my Council the limit is 10 per counselor. LongHaul

>>"There is no restriction or limit on the number of merit badges an individual may be approved to counsel for."

The rule is that LEADERS can not be avowed Homosexuals, there is not mention of youth one way or another so NO GAYS seems beyond the scope of the position of National. Speaking Of Moses by the way remember that shortly after giving Moses that rule about "Thou shalt not Kill (Murder)" God told Moses to head for the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, kill everyone he found there and take the survivors as slaves. Rules change, how we read the rules changes, largely it depends on the needs of those in power at the time. Remember the people can be the ones with the power also, it's called revolution. It happens when those in power fail to hear the cries of the masses. LongHaul

Scout, Editing a post 101; Looking at a post you should find; top to bottom the name of the thread, beneath that should be the Day, Date and Time posted. Reading accross that line the next thing should be a two boxes one with a ? and one with PM. Next to those should be a picture of a paper clip the next thing in that line will be a picture of a sheet of paper and a pencil. This is your target. Clicking on that will allow you to edit your post, IF you are the one that posted it and if you can get back before someone else posts to that thread. This icon also disappears after 30 minutes or an hour I'm not sure which. LongHaul Dan, did you get my PM?

Democracy! in the sense that majority rules I like that. If we can give them Christmas and Easter off why can't we put a Nativity Scene in the School Foyer? Well actually we can't give them Christmas and Easter off we give them a WINTER or SPRING break cleverly scheduled to coincide with the respective religious observance. HEY! How about if we call the Nativity scene a diorama depicting ancient birthing customs? LongHaul

As Ed has said real demonstrations and "samples" are the way to go. If your RT site will not allow ground fires try this, saw it at a local Scout Jamboree. Find a metal top card table that can be sacraficed to the cause. Place a piece of DURA ROCK ontop of the table and fasten it down with screws. DURA ROCK is the construction material put down when you have a ceramic tile floor. Don;t try to use SHEET ROCK which is for walls. With the DURA ROCK fastened to the table so it can be transported after the demo just make your charcaol fire directly on the table. Ours last from September till June and then we replace the DURA ROCK. We get two tables from a $14 sheet of DURA ROCK and each table will support 5 or 6 Dutch ovens. When doing the paper cup water boil I surround the cup with the burning coals so I don't char the bottom lip of the cup. Whit the bacon and eggs in a paper lunch bag I support a wire rack on empty soda cans and place the loaded bags on that. Note: The original table I saw and our first set were card tables that had composite tops which had to be removed leaving just the frame and legs. Angle iron is used to strenghten the frame and support the DURA ROCK. I can detail this is anyone likes, just PM me. LongHaul

Lisabob, Tried to PM you but they came back so I've sent you a personal email. LongHaul

>>And the original constitution, with or without the bill of rights, still allowed for states to have official state religions, financed by public taxes, and religious requirements for office, so of course a city could be an official Christian city and put up their own religious icons. The states even had the authority to make other religions illegal.

Handouts are great if you have coping resources and good originals. LInks work well also. Some I have bookmarked; http://www.lovetheoutdoors.com/camping/Cooking_Methods.htm http://www.netwoods.com/d-cooking.html#methods http://www.three-peaks.net/cooking.htm#Equipment http://www.outdoorcook.com/solar.php LongHaul

Sometimes its funny how people that will argue about interpretation of single words or phrases can fail to understand the meaning of the First Amendment. Lets remember that the first ten amendments were just that, amendments, changes to the original document. The framers of the Constitution didnt think those ten guarantees needed to be in the constitution at all. It was written, presented and adopted without them. When those that did feel those ten guarantees needed to be included finally prevailed, the ten changes were made at the same time. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. How does that become interpreted to mean the City of Nowhere can not have a Christmas tree? Congress isnt supposed to be involved with religion one way or the other. Congress has come to be interpreted as any civil government agency. Does that also mean that any civil agency can declare War or print money or any of the other things reserved for Congress? It was the interpretation of the First Amendment by 14 men after the American Civil War, the SCOTUS at that time which arrived at the current interpretation. The Constitution does not actually guarantee the right of anyone to stop the City of Nowhere from putting up a Christmas tree, in fact it guarantees the exact opposite. If we want to discuss the SCOTUS it was that same body that ruled that the BSA does not discriminate but the same people that want the one interpretation considered law are ready to ignore and deny the second ruling. Laws pertaining to religion were supposed to be left to the States, most of which have a provision similar to the First Amendment in their constitution, and finally the local community. If the City of Nowhere wants to erect a Christmas tree the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States actually says that they can. But who cares about such minutiae? LongHaul

Lately I have been trying to reflect on what Scouter Terry said and make my last post my final one. I read what others say, write thoughtful replies and then unless that reply is purely informational or in direct response to the original question I delete it unsent. The hardest to do is in regard to the Politics and War thread but Im holding my own. I think I should post this anyway. I support the acceptance of CoG as COs. IMO If we are to live according to any religious principle then we must live together in peace. I took a class in comparative religions 30+ years ago but it think it is still accurate in the fact that NO religious principle on this planet advocates war, murder, or persecution of ones neighbor. The current conflict between factions in the Middle East is among men not religious principle. Those doing the fighting believe it is about religion but never get past one mans interpretation as apposed to another mans interpretation. The religious writing they refer to does not say And you shall kill all those who do not believe. Until we love our neighbor we will not truly be in concordance with our faith. When anyone speaks of this Nation being founded upon Christian principles, being raised Christian, I must object. Forgetting the Old Testament and that part about not coveting ones neighbors house and such; lets just look at the teachings of Christ. The thread which runs though all of his teaching is that we must love one another. Turn the other cheek and stop the violence. How can that be reconciled with the manner in which the founders of this Nation treated the American Indian and the slaves they bought and sold? Is the measure of a mans principles what comes out of his mouth or what is done by his hand? I fail to see how this Country was built upon the teachings of the Bible or of Christ. With respect to BSA we have much the same conditions, intolerance and bigotry. When we say National we often forget just who or what is National. When we say National usually we mean some board of appointed or elected members who form policy. Just who makes up these boards and how are they elected or appointed? Chartering Organizations make up the bulk of the voting members. The more units chartered by any one entity the more votes that entity will have. Churches and Religious Organizations are responsible for most of our Chartering Organizations today. They presumable vote based on what is best for the boys and the organization. What do they use as a base in making that decision? Picture Dana Carvey dressed as the church lady when I ask Could it be Religion?" National because of what they are, largely representatives of an established religion, will fight the admission and legitimization of opposing groups as a matter of principle. They cant drop the DRP. They cant accept homosexuals. They cant accept those that dont believe in a God. Trying to oust those already in the door such as Buddhists, Zoroastrians and the like would draw way to much opposition and attention but allowing more in or legitimizing new factions is another matter. If National were to allow CoG to sponsor units, National would in fact be saying that CoG represents values in keeping with those of National. The Church of the Latter Day Saints, the Roman Catholic Church, the Southern Baptists saying Its OK to be a Witch? LongHaul

From The Eagle-Tribune of North Andover, MA "They came singing from the building, mourning the loss of their summer home. 'By old Onway Lake,' came the somber first verse. 'There's a place we love to linger, just for old times' sake.' Linger no more. Thursday night, the executive board of the Boy Scouts of America Yankee Clipper Council voted 26-10 to sell Camp Onway, the Raymond, N.H., summer camp run by the Scouts since 1929." http://www.eagletri bune.com/ archivesearch/ local_story_ 082115528

The hoagie sale sounds good but I like the sit down meal fundraisers because you have the opportunity to use place mats and sell business size ads. Depending on your economic area you can get $25 to $50 an ad. A standard 11 X 17 mat will hold 25 ads @ $25 thats $625. We usually do two oversized place mats and generate $1500 from them alone. LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

>>Remember, you're either with us, or, you're with the terrorists.

IMO No you are not being too hard line. I seperate service to others and service rendered for something recieved. We participate in a community clean up of the alleyways behind our main street. This event is attended by many youth organizations and sports clubs. This is a community service and I count it for service hours. Work around the building we meet in is service rendered in return for being allowed to use the building for meetings. Of course it is not stated that way, if we didn't clean around the building we probably would not be asked to leave but it still a kinda one hand washes the other. LongHaul

Leader Recognition is just that recognition. As long as a person is actively registered in BSA they can wear the awards for the positions for which they have been recognized. LongHaul

In another thread the question of PORs is again active. What constitutes "actively"? I'd like to go back to the 1960's wording; "Serve in a POR to the satisfaction of the Scoutmaster". This would give the SM the power to remove a scout from a POR and require the "boys" to elect someone else. The wording changes for POR over the years make me wonder what the actual intent or desired goal of National has been. It went from to the satisfaction of the SM to (not in chronological order) to hold a POR to serve in a POR to serve "actively" in a POR. I'd like to give the power of impeachment back to the SM. LongHaul

I'll give this one more try. The topic of this thread was not whether you support the President or agree with the mission in Iraq. The topic of this thread was a cautionary observation. Let's not make the same mistake again. As Americans let's see to it that politics does not endanger Americans in a combat zone to garner election votes. My opinion of Bush has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this post. I brought it up because there seems to be a prevalent attitude today which holds that if your anti Bush your not supporting the "troops". In 1972 Nixon won the election by a clear margin. The majority of the American public supported Nixon. They also wanted an end to the war in Viet Nam. The manner in which those troops were pulled out of Viet Nam was in my opinion appalling. People were so focused on ending the war they ignored the fact that it was a shooting war. Americans are under fire in Iraq and any exit plan has to take into consideration their safety while retreating and exiting the country. The mission must be the SAFE withdrawal of American troops. That is NOT done by Congress passing bills to force the Military Commanders into a course of action the Military Commanders didn't develop. LongHaul

>>The safety of our troops should not be our top priority. Accomplishment of the mission is always first.

I took the weekend off to clear my head and kick back. Planned to watch some Basketball and eat some junk food. In surfing the channels I came upon a panel discussing the opposition to Bushs plan for Iraq and the bills which went through the House and Senate. Bush plans to veto, congressman plan counter actions, people line up on this side or that. Those of you that have read my posts know I am anti Bush. I dont like his politics, his attitude, or is his leadership of the armed forces. I not only want the man out of office Id like to see him in jail. BUT all the talk about the war lately isnt about George W Bush its about those American soldiers under arms in a combat zone at the directions of the Commander in Chief. Congress fighting with the President and the Military Chiefs can be seen as politics in action but when that political action endangers American citizens it should not be taken in stride. If the discussion in Congress was to put 50,000 citizens in say Chicago at risk of their lives would any of us just pass by the story and not be concerned? When the American public decided it wanted an end to the war in Viet Nam congress began military budget cuts and restrictions were put on military spending. Congress wanted to force and end to the war. Those of use that can remember the final days of that military conflict that police action know what we saw as the final days. We watched the evacuation of the US Embassy in Saigon as the North Vietnamese Army came in. Those of you that cant remember or dont remember can Google it if you like or ask someone that should know. My point is that the last American to leave Viet Nam under fire was a United States Marine. A United States Marine with the task of defending the withdrawal of Embassy staff and materials. The task of defending non military personnel as well as military personnel. That United States Marine was ready to do that AT ALL COSTS. What ever our side in the politics of this war or administration Id like everyone to remember the Americans that are in harms way. Before we call for Congress to stop the War, let us call for Congress to see that we do everything we can to protect the soldier in the field. Bring the soldiers home using a plan of action designed to maximize efforts to bring them home safely. Im including a link to a very emotional clip. This clip is designed to stir emotions. It is not bloody but it is not for the more sensitive either. Its about those that have stepped up to Do Their Duty to Their Country LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Well as you last remember we had our vote and rejected the executive board proposed. The attorney for National read us the riot act and warned of dire repercussions for rejecting it a second time. The dedicated scouter of CAC submitted a list of proposed changes to the list of candidates that would satisfy the concerns of the CORs and MALs. As a result of the suggestions(?) Instead of changing the person slated to occupy the position of Executive Vice President to a candidate acceptable to the "masses" the position was dropped. Once approved the Board can reinstate the position and fill it at their option. The Legal Council for the Council will no longer have a seat on or a vote at the Executive Board. All other suggestions and changes were ignored(?) For concerned scouters this was a basic decision between do we approve the slate, which we don't want or reject it and allow our SE and National carte blanch. We approved the slate. We will now see what happens over the next few months. Side notes are that Some people who were vocal or visible in their opposition to the Sale of Owasippe and the actions of the Council Board were told to step down from their positions after the vote was held. One District got a new district chairman and District Commissioner both announced after the vote was counted. As for Owasippe the Blue Lake Township Board rejected the proposal put forth by the Council and refuses to rezone the 4900 acres for development. The case has moved to "higher courts". The camp will be open for 2007 and rumors say for 2008. The Owasippe Outdoor Education Center, a not for profit entity has proposed a deal to purchase the 4900 acres and preserve the land as is. The purchase price being set at current zoning levels. The council has rejected this offer and will continue avenues within the legal system to all the council to sell to developers at a much higher price. On a side note, I'm told that after 95 years of existence someone has finally found the resources or time to advertise the Owasippe Scout Reservation in Scouting magazine. We will see how long that lasts.

Even I don't know where that post was supposed to go I remember writing it so I guess that's a plus. Guess I need a "time out" See everyone on Sunday evening. LongHaul

I think it is a pefectly acceptable plan for the religious award(s) in question. I've PM'd you with some specific concerns. LongHaul

Sorry for the delay in responding this thread got lost on my list and the latest activity option doesn't work for me. Why permission for those under 1st. Class. Several close calls by boys that had passed the rules test and gotten their tote 'n' Chip but need to work on the skills part. Once before it was discussed that Tote'n'Chip does not have any skill requirements associated with it. A boy simply asks his SM or designated individual for a card. It's like a drivers permit to learn to drive except we don't have a Tote'n'Chip license in BSA. We want someone with experience to keep an eye on the inexperienced while wood tools are in use. Again like with a permit instead of a license. LongHaul