LongHaul

Id like to comment from the view point of an Orienteering MBC. One of the hardest things a teacher has to do is get students to unlearn something the student was taught. If you are going to teach the skill please familiarize yourself with the BSA approach. Use a compass with a base plate and a direction of travel arrow (not to be confused with the orienteering arrow). Using a plain round compass, even for experienced scouters, requires a high degree of practice to get the accuracy necessary to be effective. LongHaul

>>Which program better accomplishes the aims of scouting?

Ive chimed in as a SM now let me speak as a new guy in the unit. Ive been registered since the late 50s and have seen a lot of different units and how they operate. Recently Ive joined a very old troop in another council. Ive talked about this and the fact that this new troop still uses the Leadership Core concept and the LC wear green shirts. That is not the only hold over. Its Me says they joined this troop 5 weeks ago. How would you as an Eagle scout from the troop you are now SM for feel if this New Guy pops up and starts telling you all the things you are doing wrong? When we see something and immediately start looking for where it says they shouldnt be doing this we should ask ourselves What are we going to do with the information when we find it? Go to the SM and say See, here is where it says the PL should be sleeping with his patrol.? What kind of Scout does that make us? How many of us have each patrol sleep in a different campsite where the phrase not too for from the rest of the troop would come into play? Does this mean we are not employing the patrol method? We have had discussions on this forum before about allowing patrol campouts without adult supervision, most said they would not allow it. Again does this mean we are not employing the patrol method? Allowing siblings to tag along on campouts as a standard practice is not a positive thing for a troop to do but is every instance necessarily a disservice to the unit? Does this mean we can never go to where the general public may be because we may expose the boys to those who do not meet our age guidelines? Whether sibs are present or where a given boy sleeps is only a problem if it results in some disruption of the program at the youth level. If we can have two patrols only 7 tents apart and still call it the patrol method why not other changes to the book norm? Many have said that this would not be allowed in their troop. Allowed by whom? Is this a PLC rule and what prompted that rule? Is this an adult some where along the line trying to impose his/her vision upon the group? Are we still trying to prove we are men? Not all of us are anymore, which I am going to address in another thread in the Working with Kids section. LongHaul

In that thread about the Dad insisting that his sons sleep in a tent with him Lisabob posted some things I think we should look at. She asked what the reaction would be if it had been a mom and not a dad. She said; >>And I'm equally sure that it would be harder for any boy who did that(Sleep in a tent with his mother on a camp out) to be taken seriously as a leader by his peers. >>As a mom and one of rather few women involved with my son's troop, I've been very careful about being perceived as, well, "mothering" my son too much at scout events. >>I seldom camp with the troop because he asked me not to and I respect that this is his experience, his time to be independent from me. There are still many male leaders out there that rue the day females were allowed to register as leaders. I know some that would rather see the Organization fold then have female scoutmasters. My father almost had a heart attack when he found out a woman had received the Vigil honor. Bottom line is without female leaders BSA would not survive. LDS would have a program and some sections of the country would provide the opportunity but in most urban areas female leadership is needed to offset the drop in males giving their time. Are we willing tosay that Boy Scouts is a place for a Boy to bond with his Father but not his Mother? Are we saying that as Boy Scouts and as Scout Leaders we accept that male leaders and female leaders should be perceived differently based on gender? Unless we are ready to say no boys can go on a campout ifhis father is going and visa versa then we have to accept that somebodys Mom might be on the campout. If I wont allow them to treat me like Bills Dad and I wont allow them to treat Bill like the SMs son then how can I not address a lack of respect shown to a female leader? If I found out that one of my scouts had asked his mother not to come on campouts because he was embarrassed it would definitely be time for a Scoutmasters conference. Are we actually ready to say a Father can go on a campout and resist being a parent to his child but a Mother can not? LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

I'm with Ed here, I don't see the Patrol Method requiring all the boys of a patrol to sleep together. As a SM I side with orennoah, parents are not allowed on troop outings however additional Adult supervision is always welcome. If a leader can't accept that they are leaders for the weekend and not parents then they are not much help in supervising what our troop is trying to develop in the boys. The exception is if an adult is there as a parent for diciplinary reasons or medical issues or whatever. On thing we must remember when consulting publications is to read what is written and not what we want to find. Having a child of Cub Scout age attend a Boy Scout campout is not prohibited by the GTSS. Having Cub Scouts in the capacity of being Cub Scouts ie a Pack organized event, attend a Boy Scout Campout is a different thing. What you do then is make it a Pack Overnighter that the Boy Scouts attend. LongHaul

dScouter15, Exactly my point. Unless every person fills out a application and formally registers as a Venturing Crew member the Crew is what is commonly called a "paper unit". It's something made up by the Council and it is not in keeping with proper proceedures. If the SE and Camp Director are making the rules it's not a Venturing Crew. How can you be covered by insurance if you never join the insured group? Someone fills out a Charter and sends it to Texas without applications to support the charter registrations, "Paper unit". LongHaul

The only way you can be a member of a venturing Crew is to join a Venturing Crew. That requires that an application be filled out and a registration fee paid. You are not automatically part of a Crew just because you are on staff somewhere. If all staff members do indeed register as members of a Crew it then falls to the Officers of that Crew to decide what the Uniform shall be. The fact that milwscout580 relates that there are different Crews for different program areas makes me think that actuall registration is not being done. LongHaul

I really can't see what the problem is. What actual difference does it make where a boy sleeps when we limit the discussion to a POR? I can't perform my duties as PL if I'm 7 tents away? I can't perform my duties as "temporary" SPL if I sleep in a tent with my father? What is the real issue here? LongHaul

I must say that running IOLS for SM/ASM and WDL together, IMO as a SM and former WDL and as a trainer that has run both trainings, is a really BAD idea. Mainly because the trainers want to do things like foil dinners for the SM/ASM group instead of exploring all the alternative cooking methods and styles that the SM/ASM should be bringing back to their units. The IOLS for SM/ASM should be going over all the requirements for Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class from the view point of teaching these things to 11 year olds. I can teach you to make a fire so that you can make one readily when you take your Webelos on an overnight. I can teach you to make a fire so you are ready to teach and 11 year old how to readily make a fire on an overnight. I can teach you how to teach a 14 year old to teach an 11 year old how to make a fire. Each method is necessary at a point in Leader development and each is different. I teach the Webelos Leader how to use a compass; I teach the SM/ASM how to teach the use of a compass. I teach the Webelos Leaders how to select a campsite for their Den Overnighter, I teach the SM/ASM how to ask questions of an 11 year old so that 11 year old can select his patrol site. Yeh I know the boys are supposed to be teaching the boys but then why teach the SM/ASM anything? Let them learn from the boys too, if the boys are supposed to be the authority. Scoutmaster means master of scouts; this is the person that is supposed to be responsible for quality control. If the SM does not know how to teach the skill he cant judge the quality of the instruction being done. When PL Bill teaches New Scout Fred to build a fire, the effectiveness of that teaching is displayed in Freds ability to teach that skill not perform that skill. The over lapping skill instructions between the two groups is, again IMO, so minimal that joint sessions are ill advised and the WDL suffers when the course is run by a team that has been doing the IOLS for SM/ASM as a separate training and now wants to let the WDLs watch. Please let us know what your feelings are after the course. LongHaul

The hardest for me to live up to would have to be A Scout is Cheerful. I am told the frown lines between my eyes no longer disappear when I laugh. I spend so much time trying to fix the thorns around me that I have stopped appreciating the smell of the roses. The hardest one to explain today is A Scout is Loyal. Trying to explain Loyalty to an organization that excludes gays and those of different religious principles can be a difficult task when balancing it with the other laws. Explaining Loyalty to a country and not a particular administration so that being Loyal to your country can cause you to stand up for specific acts you are not in agreement with. This can be difficult when the person you are talking to has few life experiences that he can look upon to relate to the topic. LongHaul

First off I don't understand the question. Your an admitted Scouter, of course your crazy! It goes with the uniform. Now that we got that cleared up sit down with the beverage of your choice, do this alone and when you have time to really reflect. Why are you a Scouter? If it's to be with your child then move along with your child. If it's because you like working with children then decide where YOU will get the most satisfaction. Will your presence in the troop make that big a difference to your son? Will your being CM take that much away from your son and family? Can you do one job at a time? Will staying on as CM cause you to try and serve two masters? Scouting is first and foremost supposed to be fun, where do you have the most fun? LongHaul

Just curious, what is the time frame for your training? I've seen Outdoor Webelos Leader Training, which is now Introduction to Outdoor Leaders Training for Webelos Leaders, done as a weekend Friday evening to Sunday Afternoon. I've seen it done as a one day event 8am till 8pm(or later depending on how dark you want it to be for the campfire) and recently I've seen it offered as a 9 to 3 with a break for lunch. As a trainer I'm curious as to how others are delivering this training. LongHaul

Beavah, I've been busy and had fallen behind in my forum reading. I noticed that yeasterday you once again made reference to what is and is not policy. I've asked before and am asking again can you please let the rest of us in on where you got your copy of the "Real BSA Policy" and where we might optain copies. You don't preface your policy statements with IMO so I can only read your post as claiming that you have actual knowledge of BSA Policy the rest of us don't. I really would like to know just what BSA Policy is on many issues so if you could enlighten me as to your source I would appreciate it. LongHaul

I started to reply to infoscouter and explain the wording of the Tiger Scout application age requiremetns when a friend and fellow forum member called be and told me to actually read the Youth Application forms I had been passing out. National has reworded the requiremetns for Tiger Cubs to address this issue. They have added "have completed Kintergarden" so now the requirements reads "Must be under the age of 8, have completed Kintergarden or be in the First Grade, or be 7 years old." When Tigers was first introduced we were told specifically that recruiting Kintergarden boys was forbidden. We had to wait till September. Then a few years later Council wanted to include Tigers in the Spring roundup and we were told "Recruit them and we will sit on the applications till September" Good for Council bad for the Pack liability. With this change howevr my whole issue is mute. LongHaul Almost forgot to second Tami's suggestion to use any local Little League opportunities. Our T Ball teams were all 5 and 6 year olds and with the boys and parents there it is a great opportunity. I'm sure there are many Scouters that are also involved with LL.(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

I seem to be the odd man out in this discussion. I dont use my backpacking bag unless I'm backpacking. I have a very nice bag from Sam's Club, cost $30 and has zippers on the sides to convert it from a rectangular bag to a mummy bag. I don't use this feature but for a 4 foot kid being able to compact the bottom 18 inches so he doesn't have to heat it works well. It's rated for 35 degrees and with a fleece liner I do Okpik sub zero campouts no problem. I have a down bag for pack packing. Using the same bag for everything reduces it's life span. The bag looks great and WAS capable of providing 6 hours of comfortable sleep at X degrees when it was new but 5 years and 60 campouts later the insulation value has dropped. REI and the people that we talk to up in the Chicago area say a bag is only "reliable" for 4 to 5 years because the insulation becomes crushed, the down starts to powder and the stitching starts to stretch. As for saying warm, I camped my entire youth and most of my adult life waking up cold. When I took Okpik training our instructor told us to leave the car in the street and go sleep in the unheated garage. Start as naked as you modesty allows and thru the night add layers as needed giving each addition 20 minutes to work. I realized I had been cold because I had over dressed and was actually over heating. For the last 4 years Ive been out in sub zero temps 4 or 5 times each year and been quite comfortable in the morning. Id say find out what works for you and your body. LongHaul

OK Here is something I've run into and have never really gotten a definitive answer from our professional staff. How can I do an efective Spring recruitment for Tigers at all? The joining requirements are that the boy must already be 7 years old or be in the First Grade. Now with all the other ranks the requiremetn is "be x years old or have completed x grade" Boys comming out of Kindergarden are not in First Grade yet and most are not 7 years old. I think Spring Recruitment is a BIG plus because it gives the Pack all summer to get the parents on board so that in September the Den is off and running and not trying to deal with beginning First Grade and get a Tiger Den off the ground. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

david.self, That's why I like to name names but am trying to avoid that in an experiment in creating less hostility among forum members. My reference to doing things with the den was a general statement to address trying to accomodate a single boy, which is often the case. Accompanying a scout troop while said troop makes the rounds of it's woodduck houses is a great event and I would gladly sign off req.#4 after a boy attended such an event. As for Gonzo1's suggestion, the boy could accompany the "other" Webelos Den in his pack, the first year guys. Using the woodduck event as a hike seems like we are reaching to find a way to let this boy "get" the badge. When my troop goes to summer camp our site is about 1/3 of a mile from the dinning hall. About 1/2 mile from the water front, 1 mile from the shooting range with all the other areas in between. During the course of the day every boy will "hike" 5 to 10 miles depending on what activities he is doing that day. Three meals and a dip in the lake is 5 miles alone. I don't sign off five mile hikes every night. I may be to strict in interpretation here but a day hike to me is a walk with a purpose of it's own, a hike that wouldn't have otherwise been taken. LongHaul One thing that is often difficult is not taking out our frustration with the parents on the boy. "You had several opportunities to complete this requirement and you didn't do it." Actually the boy may not have had several opportunities because his parents didn't make those outings available to the scout by being willing to accompany him. We don't always know if the parent wasn't interested or the boy wasn't interested. Your willingness to set up this late hike so this boy can achieve his AOL says you care.

Hey! Some people collect coins some collect stamps. Some people are into shoes and some into jewelry. You collect hats nice hobby, especially for the youth you serve. LongHaul

As Scoutnut says ask your DE to be sure. We used to have "Mom and Me" "Dad and Lad" Cub Scout events but with so many absent or single parent families, older siblings and relatives are stepping up to provide supervision for the Cub Scout. Me and my Shadow could be a "PC" (not to be confused with Pack Committee) way of naming the event. Could be something totally different thought up by some cub leader that is into Fabulous Unbelievable Nonsense. LongHaul

Actually by the time the boy gets to the point that he is working on his AOL he is supposed to be doing these things with his Den. Req. #5 says "Participate in a Webelos overnight campout or day hike." The qualifier "Webelos should apply to the overnight and the day hike. This does not mean "while a Webelos Scout", it means with your Webelos Den and/or other Webelos Scouts. LongHaul

One problem I've run into with parents that want to be on the Pack Committee and the Troop Committee is that they try to have both function alike. The Pack Committee runs the Pack. It produces the calendar and sets the goals and program. The CM works with the DLs to see that the program is delivered and that the DLs support the Pack meeting program. The Troop Committee is there to support the SM and the PLC. The SM sets the "program" and the PLC produces the calendar and is responsible for the day to day operations. The TC is like a producer on a movie, they see that everyone else has what they need to do their jobs but they(the producers) don't act, cast, direct, or write screen plays. When parents come from the PC they want to run the troop and dictate to the SM and PLC just like they did in the Pack. Trying to be on both committees simultaneously is usually difficult mentally. LongHaul

First let me say most Merit Badge Days Ive participated in or have witnessed, when considered as a whole, have been poorly run. They have amounted to just what he who wishes not to be named  was referring to when he said >> We don't want 'em just to get a patch, after all, we want 'em to get personally introduced to something interesting by a genuine mentor.

First let me say most Merit Badge Days Ive participated in or have witnessed, when considered as a whole, have been poorly run. They have amounted to just what he who wishes not to be named  was referring to when he said >> We don't want 'em just to get a patch, after all, we want 'em to get personally introduced to something interesting by a genuine mentor.

david.self, You asked if a 2 night overnighter could be counted as two separate events and if the walking involved with the Klondike Derby could be considered a hike. My reply is a question to you "If you received a 'yes' answer to either of the above questions and awarded the AOL would the scout feel he had earned it or gotten it by default?" What does the scout feel about 2 nights being counted separate or the Klondike being a duel event? We don't want a scout disappointed but we also don't want to validate "getting by". Why didnt this scout camp more than once or take a hike in the 20 months of the Webelos Program? Did he choose not to attend or were the options not available to him? LongHaul

I'd suggest reading #4 again using the following definitions and see if you still think it means the same thing. area=Council event, regional=Regional event, national=National event NONE of these are unit events or troop meetings. Also note subsection c. Parental permission. Because written parental permission can not be obtained on an incident by incident basis those under 18 are not allowed to drive other scouts anywhere while attending my Council summer camp even though it is a Council event. LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)