LongHaul

The news from Chicago and Owasippe such that it is. Owasippe has opened for its 96 th consecutive summer. Per the agreement we have with our council and those who are attempting to purchase the land, because we have opened this year we are guaranteed the option to open next year for our 97th. As far as I know program is running fine though attendance is down somewhat with troops beginning to look elsewhere in anticipation of Owasippe closing. That will not happen if everyone would stand together in the fight but even in our home troops there is apathy. The Chicago Area Council is locked in an ongoing court fight to have the 4800 acres rezoned resort property so CAC can get top dollar for the land. The local Blue Lake Township, where the camp is located, is fighting the proposal but can not match the 17 million dollar war chest CAC has as a result of selling our only other camp. CAC is in a battle to deplete the Blue Lake Township funds to the point that Blue Lake Township will no longer be able to continue the fight. A fund supporting the efforts to prevent the destruction of the 4800 acres and the flora and fauna which now exists has been established. Those sympathetic to our cause can send what they see fit to Blue Lake Township Defense Fund c/o Blue Lake Township Hall, 1491 Owasippe Rd., Twin Lake, MI, 49457 LongHaul

Camp Owasippe (the oldest in the Nation) is still alive and well. http://www.owasippe.com/docs/ldrs_manual.pdf Many programs for all levels. Located in Blue Lake Township (directly accross the road from Camp Gerber) about ten miles east of White Hall LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

I'm sorry FScouter, did you read the statement from the Clinton Valley Council? http://www.cvc-bsa.org/advancement/bsAdvancementFAQ.html#posResp Unless we are saying that this is a false statement and the "decision recently handed down by National on an appeal" dose not infact say what Clinton Valley Council claims it does then National has said that time in position constitues completion of the requirement. >>"The following is quoted directly from that decision: Serving in a position of leadership means that if they are elected or appointed to a position, such as Patrol Leader, and serve in that position for the required time, they have satisfactorily completed that requirement.

>>If a BOR discovers that a Scout did not really do a whole lot in his POR, but it was still approved by his SM, that is a TROOP problem, a SM problem. The Scout can be counseled to take a more active role in his NEXT POR. The BOR should then take the SM to task for the problems that were discovered & help to make sure they are not repeated.>but is still approved by his SM,> The Scout can be counseled to take a more active role in his NEXT POR.> The BOR should then take the SM to task for the problems that were discovered & help to make sure they are not repeated

Let's clarify terms. Are we talking about valuing one's own life or that of the other 6 soon to be 12 billion? LongHaul

Understand that I am not disagreeing with OGE here but does anyone else see this as adding to the requirement? The written requirement says "While a XXXX scout serve actively in one or more....." When a boy presents himself to a BOR and the POR item has been signed off how can we ask him to do extra work in the POR? If the BOR felt the boy didn't actually earn say Lifesaving Merit Badge could they ask him to do extra work in the Lifesaving area to qualify for advancement? I think I can see National's intent here but when they say we can not add to or subtract from the written requirement how can we now refuse to accept something that has been satisfied in the opinion of the person designated to make that decision? LongHaul

OGE, Seeing that you prefaced your recent post with "LongHaul," I take it that the post was a response to my recent post. I just cant see how yours addresses mine. I know what the BOR is supposed to do if it decides not to advance a scout I asked just how that written response would be worded if the BOR felt the performance in completing the POR requirement was inadequate. What would be the purposed action the scout could take to rectify the situation? LongHaul

When I was a 1st grader in the mid fifties I walked a mile each way to school unsupervised. So did everyone else in my neighborhood. Within a block (1/8 of a mile) of my front door I'd meet up with 1 or 2 others and by the time we got to school we were in groups of 6 and 7 a few feet apart from another group of 6 or 7. I had a prairie directly across the street that was a half mile square. We'd back a lunch and be gone most of the day in weeds twice our height. When my youngest was a 1st grader he was drives 3 blocks to school every morning and not let out of the building until an adult arrived to pick him up. Because of traffic? Because the news media has created a false phobia? Personally my decision was based on the fact that child molesters are back on the street in 2 years and rapists in 4. In the 50's if you molested a child and ended up in prison the inmates would be less than welcoming. Today rape and molestation are credits to a persons status in prison. We have lost the ability to intimidate the offenders. Our children are not safe because we as a society have lost the ability to protect them from those who would do them harm. The best we can do is seek retribution against the offenders and we are not even doing that in some cases. LongHaul

I don't see how the Clinton Valley statement "directly contradicts" the statement on the National web site. The National site doe not address the issue of time in position at all nor does it address credit for time served. Both statements say that a boy that is not performing the duties can be removed from that position. My question is if the BOR were to decide a boy has not performed the duties assigned to him in a satisfactory method even though the scout had held the position for the required length of time, what would be the actual reason for not advancing the scout? What could the scout do to correct the situation? Can we ask him to re due the POR requirement? LongHaul

I reprint this here without the express permission of my wife,the author. She wrote this for a special ed class she is currently taking. No Child Left Behind, Oh! were that but the case. In order for Education to happen Learning must take place. Our legislature is so focused on the bottom end of the student body that it has all but forgotten the upper end. Gifted and talented children deserve to be Educated just as much as the Learning Disabled. According to Dr. Philip Powell, Assistant Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas, most gifted children know that they are different by the time they are five. Their development is uneven and out of step with their peers. Motor skills, especially fine motor, often lag behind cognitive conceptual abilities, particularly in preschool (Webb & Kleine, 1993). These children may see in their "mind's eye" what they want to do, construct or draw however, motor skills do not allow them to achieve the goal. Intense frustration and emotional outbursts may result. Feeling different from others is not exclusive to gifted children. We are all different and unique. We usually find a group of friends we fit into where we have similar interests and views. But for a gifted child, who has an extreme view of the world, there is much less chance of finding that group. They often have difficulty making and keeping friends, their advanced levels of ability may steer them toward older children. They may choose peers by reading books, the characters become their friends (Halsted, 1994). Such children are often thought of as "loners." The conflict between fitting in and being an individual may be quite stressful. Their sensitivity, empathy and desire to be accepted by others make them more vulnerable to criticism and peer rejection. In an interview for Harper Collins, Stephanie Tolan, childrens author and co-author of the award-winning book, Guiding the Gifted Child, said that she wrote about unusually brilliant children to help her own gifted son through his school years. Gifted children share most of the same needs as other children. The same developmental stages occur, often at a younger age (Webb & Kleine, 1993). Gifted children may face the same problems, such as family poverty, substance abuse, or alcoholism. Some needs and problems however, appear more often among gifted children such as impatience and the dislike of basic routine; probably because they acquire and retain information quickly. Because they emphasize truth, equity and fair play, they tend to worry or even fret about humanitarian concerns. Pre School and Kindergarten programs that break complicated subjects into simple pieces for children to understand often stress gifted children. Sequences may be too simple for minds, which thrive on complexity and challenge. Able to process huge quantities of information rapidly, gifted children may find nothing to interest or engage them in regular programs. Stephanie Tolan gives an analogy for this process. She compares it to feeding an elephant grass, one blade at a time. Not only will he die of malnutrition before you can get sufficient food into him, he is unlikely to realize you are trying to feed him at all. That single blade of grass is simply too small to notice. Self esteem issues may be particularly troublesome for gifted children because they are usually prone to perfectionism. Realizing their own potential and capabilities, these children may get the feeling that they should be able to do just about anything, and then become frustrated when they dont perform up to their own expectations. For example, not winning an award for the best science project may make the gifted child feel that he has let himself down. According to James T. Webb, Ph.D., because gifted children are able to consider the possibilities of how things might be they tend to be idealists. However, they are simultaneously able to see that the world is falling short of how it might be. Because they are intense, gifted children feel strongly the disappointment and frustration which occurs when ideals are not reached. Similarly, these children quickly spot the inconsistencies, arbitrariness and absurdities in society and in the behaviors of those around them. Traditions are questioned or challenged. For example, why do we put such tight sex-role or age-role restrictions on people? Why do people engage in hypocritical behaviors in which they say one thing and then do another? Why do people say things they really do not mean at all? Why are so many people so unthinking and uncaring in their dealings with others? How much difference in the world can one person's life make? When gifted children try to share these concerns with others, they are usually met with reactions ranging from puzzlement to hostility. They discover that others, particularly of their age, clearly do not share these concerns, but instead are focused on more concrete issues and on fitting in with others' expectations. Often by even first grade, these youngsters, particularly the more highly gifted ones, feel isolated not only from their peers, but also sometimes from their families as they find that others are not prepared to discuss such weighty concerns. Researchers have found a correlation between "overexcitability" and giftedness. Over his lifetime of clinical and academic work Kazimierz Dabrowski proposed his Theory of Positive Disintegration, which stated that people born with overexcitability had a higher level of "development potential" than others. After decades of research, it appears that overexcitability can actually be used to predict which kids might be gifted. While a bright child with overexcitability who is doing well in school might be labeled gifted, the same child underachieving in school, might be labeled ADHD instead. Many gifted students are underachievers. There is evidence to suggest that as many as 45% of identified gifted children with IQs above 130 have below average grades (Johnson, 1981). Researchers argue that the traits of gifted students, when expressed in a negative fashion, are nearly identical to the traits of ADHD. Teachers typically associate giftedness with students who are compliant and obedient. Thus, teachers are not inclined to believe that a child who is acting out might in fact be gifted (Reid, 1995). And while there are many things that can result in behavioral problems in gifted students, researchers argue that most behavioral problems are developed in response to inappropriate curriculum and instructional methods, or the social climate created by the teacher and classroom peers (Delisle 1987). Research has looked at the types of educational provisions for gifted children and how this can effect their social and emotional adjustment. Although there is controversy over ability-grouped programs and acceleration for the gifted, the results generally show positive effects for children's self esteem and achievement. Studies of gifted students, such as those conducted by Benbow and Stanley (1997), indicate that accelerated students are satisfied with their acceleration, and report enhanced achievement, motivation, increased friendship choices and greater enjoyment of school and learning. Students in full-time ability grouping programs commented on the quality of the friendships they had been able to develop with other students who shared their abilities and interests. Adams (1992) found that some form of homogeneous grouping benefits the most able and gifted students in terms of their academic achievement, as well as their attitudes concerning themselves as learners and regarding their school experiences. Gross (1993) found disturbingly low levels of social self esteem in highly gifted children whose placement in the mixed-ability classroom prevented them from developing supportive relationships with age-peers of similar ability and interests. Gross uses a clever analogy to help illustrate the impact of gifted children's 'educational fit' on their development. If the right educational provisions are not provided this may hinder their social, emotional and academic growth. If big fish are placed in ponds that are too small for them, and if they are kept there too long, they stop growing. (Gross, 1997, p.29). In an article from the Washington Post 12/27/05 Susan Goodkinin said that there are about three million gifted students in the US that are not getting what they need from the public education system. Programs for the gifted are disappearing in districts across the country because of budget cuts, shifting priorities and, some allege, because of the federal "No Child Left Behind" act. Critics of "No Child Left Behind" claim that the law's emphasis on the lowest performing students is leading districts to ignore gifted children. The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented (NRC/GT) reported the following facts; Many gifted elementary school students already know between 40 and 50% of the material to be covered in the class. Most gifted and talented students spend at least 80% of their time in a regular education classroom. According to a 1991 study, between 18 and 25% of gifted and talented students drop out of school. Gifted dropouts were generally from a lower socio-economic status family and had little or no access to extracurricular activities, hobbies, or computers. Without properly trained teachers, students cannot excel to their highest potential, and often find themselves bored and frustrated in school. According to an NRC/GT study, 61% of classroom teachers did not receive any training in meeting the needs of gifted and talented students. The NRC/GT also found that gifted students experience no instructional or curricular differentiation in 84% of the activities in which they participated. The gifted education initiative, receives just 2.6 out of every $100 spent on education, according to the federal K-12 budget for 2007. All children are special, unique and have gifts and talents, but academically gifted children need more higher-order thinking and problem-solving challenges than are available in most regular classrooms. Gifted children deserve teachers that are prepared to meet their needs. They typically have more intense feelings and emotions, at earlier ages, than their peers. There are no laws to ensure they are provided with educations that challenge them, the IDEA Act requires this for children in Special Education, but not for gifted children. Just as a child of less-than-average mental ability frequently has trouble keeping up with his classmates, so a child of above-average ability has trouble staying behind with them. Statistics indicate that the argument 'cream will rise to the top', turns out to be incorrect. Gifted students should be able to learn at their own speed not someone else's, skip over work they already know and understand, study things of interest beyond basic school work, and work with abstract concepts that require more than simple thinking. If this cannot be achieved in the regular classroom, then other options must be considered. Gifted children have a right to a free and appropriate education just as all children do. He always wanted to explain things, But no one cared.So he drew. Sometimes he would draw, and it wasn't anything. He wanted to carve it in stone or write it in the sky, and it would be only him and the sky and the things inside him that needed saying. It was after that he drew the picture. He kept it under his pillow, and would let no one see it. He would look at it every night and think about it. When he started school, he brought it with him, not to show anyone, just to have along as a friend. It was funny about school. He sat in a square, brown desk, like all the other square, brown desks. He thought it should be red. And his room was a square, brown room, like all the other square, brown rooms. It was tight and close and stiff. He hated to hold the pencil and chalk, his arms, stiff, his feet flat on the floor, stiff, the teacher watching and watching. The teacher came and spoke to him. She told him to wear a tie like all the other boys. He said he didn't like them. She said it didn't matter. After that, they drew. He drew all yellow. It was the way he felt about morning, and it was beautiful. The teacher came and smiled at him. "What's this?" she said. "Why don't you draw something like Ken's drawing? Isn't that beautiful?" After that, his mother bought him a tie, and he always drew airplanes and rocket ships like everyone else. And he threw the old picture away. And when he lay alone looking at the sky, it was big and blue and all of everything, but he wasn't anymore. He was square inside and brown, and his hands were stiff. He was like everything else. The things inside that needed saying didn't need it anymore. It had stopped pushing. It was crushed. STIFF. Like everything else. This was said to be written by a high school senior in Alton, Illinois, two weeks before he committed suicide. Adams, M., Ball, S., Braithwaite, J., Kensell, H., & Low, B. (1992). Meeting community needs: Sydney: Macquarie University Printery. Benbow, C. & Stanley, J. (1997). Inequity inequity: How "equity" can lead to inequity for high-potential students, Psychology, Public Policy and Law, 2(2), 249-292. Bevan-Brown, J. (1993). Special abilities: A Maori perspective. Unpublished M.Ed Thesis, Massey University. Culbertson and D. Willis (Eds.), Testing young children (pp. 383-407). Austin, TX: Pro-Ed. Dabrowski, K. (1966). The Theory of Positive Disintegration. International Journal of Psychiatry, 2(2), 229-244. Gross, M. (1997). Affective development of gifted and talented children. Paper presented at the NSW Institute for Educational Research Seminar Series, UNSW, Kensington, March 21. Halsted, J.W. (1994). Some of my best friends are books: Guiding gifted readers. Dayton, OH: Ohio Psychology Press. Harper Collins (n.d.). Retrieved April 5,2007 from http://www.harpercollins.com/author/AuthorExtra.aspx?displayType=interview&authorID=18819 Johnson, C. (1981) Smart Kids Have Problems, Too. Today's Education, 70. Nexus Research Group http://www.nexusresearchgroup.com/gifted_kids/gifted4.htm National Association for Gifted Students (n.d,). Retrieved April 2, 2007 from http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=533 Reid, B.& McGuire,M. (1995) Square Pegs in Round Holes, These Kids Don't Fit: High Ability Students With Behavioral Problems. The National Research Center on the Gifted and Talented. Webb, J.& Kleine, P (1993). Assessing gifted and talented children.

Check out the info at http://www.wwswd.org/index.htm. If the CO and the CM think the boy is best served in the Cub program then there are ways to keep him in Cub Scouts. LongHaul

>>I guess there might be a few situations in which one would still hesitate to remove this woman from her post, though--maybe if she is engaged to the father, who is currently deployed to Iraq.>If a wedding is in the picture and the situation made MORALLY correct, then I think there is a possibility for a discussion on "MORALLY STRAIGHT" for the lads, if the person is willing to be involved and help with the discussion.>She could rectify the situation by marrying the father, but the odds are that marriage won't last.>I'm just saying, we seem to be focused on what this young woman did, and how she might "fix" it, without much regard for the fact that any "fix" requires, at the least, the active consent of the other adult party in this deal.

An IMMORAL act can be made MORAL by preforming some post infraction ritual? Interesting LongHaul

What is the real issue here? Is it that advancing a boy that has fathered a child out of wedlock to the rank of Eagle Scout reflects poorly on the rank or that this boy had pre marital sex? If it's that it would reflect poorly on the rank then I'd ask why such a restriction has not been recommended for scouts being awarded merit badges for which they never mastered the skill, such as many of those received from Merit Badge "Clinics". We have heard of new scouts being sent to a MBC for Personal Management or the like. Should we not include ANY criminal acts? If it is because this boy had pre marital sex then what about those boys that have had pre marital sex but that did not achieve impregnation? Just what is the issue here? LongHaul

For an adult to wear youth insignia is not in keeping with the uniforming method. If you are wearing a non uniform hat you are not in "uniform". A troop can decide to wear official head gear or not but wearing non official head gear technically is not an option when speaking in terms of being in uniform for the purpose of saluting the flag.. One salutes the flag when in uniform and covers the heart with the hand when not in uniform. Wearing blue jeans means you cover your heart. Non uniform head gear should be removed out of respect for the flag and what it stands for. LongHaul

akanatzar, If you are a scout then a MBC should be willing to demonstrate this requirement so you can practice and perfect it. It's not hard once you have seen it done. Personally I prefer to leave the shirt on until the pants have been removed. Air can be trapped in the back of the shirt and used to help keep you afloat while removing the pants. Once pants are inflated they wont sink while you remove shirt. The tighter the weave of the cloth, the better the air retention on both pants and shirt. Scout uniforms work nice but the more patches on the shirt the more needle holes. Longhaul

Exactly what type of discription are you looking for? LongHaul

My suggestion is the First Class Pin. That's what we all wore when I was a youth and the one I was told on MANY occasions by the Uniform Police to remove from my hat when I turned 18. LongHaul

Could be wrong here but as far as I know the CM is in charge of program. SO if the CM says we sing we sing. You can start with songs they already know, like row row row your boat. After each verse you drop one word. So the second time through you would sing "....life is but a" then "life is but" till you get to "Row". You could pass out words and have them join in. Cubs like action songs. Or try looking at these sites. http://www.boyscouttrail.com/songs.asp http://www.macscouter.com/Songs/index.html http://www.geocities.com/rickram.geo/songbook/songbook.html http://home.earthlink.net/~jmak/Music/Lyrics.html http://www.macscouter.com/CubScouts/Music/index.html http://falcon.jmu.edu/~ramseyil/songs.htm LongHaul

So now that we all have read the "Book" I'll ask again. As SM do you say Yes or NO. Shall I assume that Brent and EinKY would allow overnight camping without adult supervision? Ya there are variables and conditions but is no adult camping an option? LongHaul

EagleINKY, I could go down the "How many patrols share a site?" or "Do patrols travel together?" Do patrols shop for supplies together?" But that goes no where. THe original post did not identify this as a practice but an incident. I had bigger concerns with the original post which I brought up later. For now let me ask you this in an effort to see how far the "Patrol Method" extends in your view. The "Fox" patrol decides to do a patrol overnight campout at a local camp ground which the troop has used in the past. The patrol members range from tenderfoot thru Star and from 11 to 14 years old. No adults are going just the Fox patrol. Do you as SM say Yes or No? LongHaul

Case in point. The beginner compass game WDL MOM discribes has several "control points" which are very close together. Unless the scout is taught the correct way to set a heading and sight a bearing they will have little "luck" in getting this game right. The smaller the diameter of the circle the closer the control points. If you use this game, and it is a very good teaching tool(I have 3 but none still has the set up page, and I hound the boys about keeping track of their gear:) ) anyway if your going to use this game it is important to teach the scouts to sight over the control when setting a heading. Standing next to the control when sighting, on smaller diameter courses, will creat big problems. LongHaul

Let me stage this just a bit. The room is set up like an American football field. The goal post is the table where the SPL sits and the flags are already in standards either side of that table. The patrols are formed down each side line and face the center of the field when called to attention. When the SPL begins the meeting do the boys turn to face the flag or remain facing center field? LongHaul

>>But I do think there's still an attitude from some people where if a woman raises a complaint about things like inappropriate language, bullying, etc.., that this is viewed as "mothering" in the over-protective sense and consequently the concern is sometimes discounted. >That being said - there is the mindset, with many Troops, where if a woman and a man were to raise identical concerns, hers would likely be dismissed as being too cautious whereas his would be heard out before being routinely chuckled at. Hopefully our sons, nephews, grandsons, etc will do better than some are doing right now.

As long as we are pretending that the site is bigger and the adults are not present how about if we pretend the scout slept somewhere else? LongHaul