LongHaul

>>Having said that I do feel that any kid who watches TV after 8:00 PM has been exposed to a lot of sexual content. They don't need anyone telling them about being Gay or Straight -They know that stuff already!!

The point Eamonn is that it's a federal mandate, they can use TSA or do it themselves but they will do it. Yes Gonzo we do have check points across the country for weight and vehicle checks but this new mandate has nothing to do with interstate anything. It's directed at those of use that have a Hazardous Material certification. Hazmat includes many things but it does not include ammunition, explosives or things of that nature these are a separate gratification. Hazmat includes some food preservatives, paint, Coca Cola syrup! The designation depends on the amount you carry, you need Hazmat certification to carry a truck load of Coke syrup but not 1000 pounds. I could legally transport en ought fertilizer and fuel oil and what not to recreate Oklahoma City without hazmat certifications. This is IMO just an excuse to establish a data base, the operative wird being excuse. LongHaul

As I said I gave them the fingers long time ago, photos references the works. It's always been a requirement to have unescorted access to air port terminals. It's not a question of having something to hide it's a matter of personal liberty. While in the military you had to carry a set of orders with you while in transit you want to do that as a civilian? What have you got to hide? Why not file travel papers before you leave just like a float plan? What say we use a system like a debit card where when you travel you swipe your card so the TSA knows where everyone is all the time. A crime is committed and they know who was in the area or was AWOL. Just how much liberty are you willing to relinquish to "feel" safe? LongHaul

>>"Why is it so hard for us sometimes to separate the discussion from whether we think sexual orientation is biological or learned behavior, and what we think about people being able to choose with whom they associate?", that the question should not be germane to this issue. << Think I failed to make myself clear on this. When I said "..what we think about people being able to choose with whom they associate.", I was referring to National's choice not to associate with gays. Packsaddle, If Ed were to say "OK I accept that homosexuality is biological but I still think the desires are abnormal and should not be acted upon" Make and difference in your accepting his view? Morals are a funny thing sometime. We try to justify ours with arguments that don't always stand up to scrutiny. The Pedophile thing hinges on the child aspect. We feel a child isn't capable of making choices along sexual lines. We allow parents to impose religious beliefs, cultural dictates, racial prejudice, political opinions, and moral values just as long as it doesn't involve sex in a manner WE don't like, there we draw the line. Western civilization seems to be preoccupied with sex. Several years ago a leader came back from the World Jamboree with a very amusing story. Seems he was out with about 6 or 8 of the boys in his Jambo unit when they met an equal number of scouts from a Northern Europeans country most of whom were female. My friend remarked that the "other" leader was not only female but very attractive. One of his boys asked if it would be alright to exchange uniforms between the two groups. As this was something that National had spoken about in the pre Jamboree publications and there was some advice as to what types of patches to put on a uniform a boy wished to offer in trade my friend said that it would be alright. At this point the European scouts began to remove their uniforms, this included the female leader. She quickly realized my friends shock and the exchange was moved to a more Western World friendly site, the bathroom where uniforms were shuttled back and forth by fully clothed individuals. My point is that not everyone shares our moral views when it comes to the human anatomy and physical expression. Why can't we accept that in each other? In the 1940's a Scout in Mississippi would have been morally straight supporting segregation where as a Scout in New York would not have been? My morals are to be dictated to me by those around me? A stronger argument for choosing who I surround myself with I couldn't make. LongHaul

Does anyone think if we leave it up to National that the local COs and volunteers will huff and puff about it for a while then get over it? Do you think that all those who have an ethical problem being part of an organization that excludes girls, gays and those who do not believe in god should exspress that dissatisfaction by resigning their membership? Wouldn't the drop in members better get the attention of National? Do you think that the dissatisfaction with National is not that great as to warrent leaving the organization? "This is a great organization, I want to be a member, I just don't agree with what it stands for." LongHaul

As some of you know or may have guessed by my user name I drive a truck. I got a letter today from the Secretary of State telling me I had to submit to a TSA finger print registration because I have a Hazardous Material certification on my CDL. Personally this does not effect me because I have a federal clearance certificate because I service airports so I went through a personal check and finger print registration years ago. I just find it another invasion of privacy put upon us through the patriot act and using the 911 excuse. "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Ben Franklin. This quote from the Poor Richard's Almanack of 1738 is often paraphrased as "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" Ben where are you now when we need you? LongHaul

>>So, if a 50 year-old man expresses love (physical expression) for a neighbor's 10 year-old boy, you won't think that is immoral? Get rid of the pedophile laws?>People don't CHOOSE to be gay any more than they CHOOSE to be AB+ or redheads or 140 IQ. That's just the way we come out. Sexual orientation is not a choice like wearing a moustache or playing the piano or worshipping Allah.

>>We don't allow anyone to discuss heterosexuality with the boys now,>I don't think I have ever seen the prohibition about discussing sexual issues with Scouts. I didn't realize the mission was "to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes, except about sexual issues, by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.">Brent, I would hope that if a scout leader was in the habit of starting conversations about his or her sexuality that boys and parents would complain to the CO about this. I would then expect that the CO would either make it clear to the scouter in question that this is utterly inappropriate and better not happen twice, or that the CO would remove the scouter in question from the troop's leadership. This holds true regardless of the sexual orientation of the scouter.

>>>First let me address the membership totals. These are from the Three Fires Council site, I have the numbers form a National site but cant find the link in my myriad of add on drives, who knew Id need 100 gigabytes of memory? I started with 16 and when I bought this thing I thought that was like hunting flies with a canon. Anyway In 1972 membership was at its all time top; 6,524,640 This was also the year that the newly revised Scout Handbook removes outdoor skill requirements for 1st Class as an "improved Scouting program" is introduced. Membership fell steadily reaching a recent low of 4,284,469 in 1979 when the Handbook again was revised and as BrentAllen says we returned to an outdoor program. The drop had nothing to do with girls, gays, or god. The numbers continued to rise after 1980 until they reached 5,445,899 in 1990. After this the numbers began to include LFL totals and IMO become unreliable for arguments of membership in the program. These numbers reflect an interest in the program not the politics of BSA. Its the program and again not the politics that those who attack us now seek. They want to join the program they just want to change the politics. Many see a change in the politics to be a damaging change to the program. >>>Second to the use of the discrimination tag line; Everyone discriminates, go into a store and buy the brand name you normally would and you are discriminating against the off brand you have never tried. Tell your children not to associate with %% and you are discriminating. As Ive said before a very popular brand of Scotch used to say it was for The Discriminating Man. Its ILLEGAL Discrimination that we dont like but the press refuses to make that distinction. Our critics refuse to make that distinction. American values used to include fighting for a persons Constitutional rights. Guess that changed along with some of the morals in the PC society. We want the right to join your group and if that means we have to violate or take away your right to exclusivity then so be it! Our rights and desires supersede your rights. We want you to accept us even though we will not accept you. Are not the rallying cries that gain my support. >>>As for the NAACP being open try looking up NAACP scholarships and find out how many were given to affluent white students, how many to middle class white students and how many to poverty level white students and the do the same for Black students in the same categories. Then tell me that there was no separation of applicants other than at the scholastic level. (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Gunny, Yes, McGivney stated that over the past decade there have been at least a dozen incidents, she goes on to list numbers for 3 of the twelve. If you want to do the math then get all the numbers from all 12. As Beavah says we actually dont know how many incidents there were because National wont disclose that information. I do agree with you on principal though that Scouting in general is a lot safer than contact or semi-contact sports for the ages we target. As a National program I think we do a good job over all statistically. The problem is we dont deal in statistics we deal with young people. Many feel that BSA has taken the fun out of scouting in an effort to minimize Risk. I know I did a lot of things when I was a Scout that cant even be considered today even though the Risk factor is the same now as it was then. As to my question of how the numbers you generated justify the lack of mandatory training I point to your statement of >>I think Ill take those odds

First I must also report that training in my council is not received well. Some of the courses are done very well and those that do actually take these trainings have nothing but praise. Basic leadership courses are canceled yearly due to limited or no response from untrained leaders. Some leaders have not taken training in 40 years others have never taken BSA training. In many cases unit program reflects this dramatically. As to hops_scout's feeling that Ms. McGivney loses ALL credibility because she mentions gays and atheists. >>I believe this article has a lot of truthful stuff in it, but she loses all credibility when she mentions gays and atheists. Wrong place for it.

Packsaddle, Being a SM I have been on the SM side of the ESLP. A boy envisions a project and roughs out the idea, comes to me and we discuss it.(page 2 of the workbook) If I think it is a project that could qualify and be approved up the chain I have him write it up per the ESLP workbook. Page three of that workbook asks for my signature. That signature must be present before the DAC or District Eagle Project whatever can approve the project. If All the required people approved the project and the Scout has completed the project as described why would an SM refuse to complete the SM conference on the basis of the project? If the SM has problems with the project they should have been raised at step one, page 2 of the workbook This concept was discussed with my unit leader on. They should have been raised before the SM signed off on the project proposal. Does the SM have some reason to believe that demonstrations of Leadership available to the Scout in the original proposal were not put to proper use? I Had a scout write a plan up saying that he would supervise others in doing A B & C when in fact he did these things himself when the time came. As to what constitutes Leadership, IMO meeting with the necessary officials and competing for grants is development not leadership. Approaching someone and having them design a computer program for you is not leadership, though I would accept that others may disagree. If your superior put you in charge of a team with the responsibility to produce A and a part of A required the writing of a computer program an you delegated that task to me that could well be seen as leadership. As to what degree of Leadership needs to be shown during an ESLP that rests with the SM, TC, and DAC and should be spelled out BEFORE a project is approved. A decision in this case depends on what the SM was led to believe concerning the ESLP, prompting the SM to sign off initially on that project. If the project was explained properly and after actually seeing it completed the SM says; Na not good enough then we have a situation where the SM made an agreement and is now reneging on his end. If I say I will deliver a FORD and you think MUSTANG and I show up with a PINTO, I still completed my end as promised. LongHaul

Guys!!! Are we encouraging this youth to commit mutiny? What ever happen to supporting the volunteers? Bradwillkall, A Scout is courteous, he is also brave. As necessary as the SM is to a troop it is still the boys troop. It does sound like there is more to the story than you have told us. It also sounds like you have adult support from others in the troop which makes one think that your plans are not unrealistic. Go for it! LongHaul

If the concern is that there are people on the BOR that do not understand the BSA program and are therefore unable to evaluate the Scout in that light, then the DAC needs to be informed. as to confidentiality "Never say something behind a man's back you wouldn't say to his face." LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

>>A criminal is, by definition, a bad person (or at least someone who did something bad enough to be convicted of a crime). >If evidence to the contrary does not change a prejudicial characterization (obstinately held) then bigotry could be invoked.

tjhammer, do I understand you to say that being prejudice is OK as long as it's against the "right" group? LongHaul

Ok Gern how about we start swapping terms as packsaddle suggested yeasterday. How about if I said all mass murderers were bad people, bigot or not? All child molesters were bad people? All rapist? Doesn't bigotry apply no matter what the identified group is? If I said that I supported the BSA's RIGHT to exclude gays, girls and the godless BUT didn't necessarily agree with BSA's decision to do so, bigot or not? LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

>>"Main Entry: bigot Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t Function: noun Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance."

Just so I'm clear here. If I were to declare that I hold that buying and selling human beings is unacceptable and that no possible justification for said action could be made, would that make me a bigot? LongHaul

>>I would request that everyone who engaged in violence or was inclined to violence be sent home. >the group of boys, I'm not sure who was involved besides P hatched a plan to lock S in the bathroom. >Not sure who call who out, but a challenge to fight was issued and words exchanged. S leaves and one of the scouts calls S a pussy, it was not S or G,(ADULT2 has the boy's name.>The situation crossed an important threshold in my mind when the knife incident occurred>S then ran through camp as I was calling for people to come get cobbler, the group was chasing after him saying you hit G.

local 1400, Take a look at the first page or two in this thread and you'll see that the a group of 11 dedicated volunteers did indeed seek legal recourse. After much effort and several favorable rulings by the courts to the volunteers position National stepped in and declared that if the law suits were not immediatly dropped they (National) would disolve CAC,absorb all asests and break the districts up into the surrounding councils. LongHaul

local 1400, Actually what would happen if you tried that in CAC would be that you would find yourself out of Scouting all together. Even suggesting that a "youth" should become involved with a political stance in their capacity as Boy Scouts would get you ousted. Several CAC adults have been the recipients of expulsion/suspension letters for doing just that. One actually for saying that scouts could use their (the scout's) opposition and efforts to stand up to the CAC Board as means to fullfill several requirements for different merit badges. Leaders were informed that youth were not to attend information sessions or discussion sessions between CAC Board officials and CAC Volunteers and COR/MAL. LongHaul

Check the 70's training course called "Cornerstone". I believe one of the nine moduals was called "Woodlore". I believe that delt with trees, plants, animals, and nature. LongHaul

Ignor any posts I may make that reference directions, map reading, orienteering or the like. I'm still somewhere out in the woods of upper Wisconsin which is on the WEST side of lake Michigan, unlike the state of MIchigan which is on the EAST side of lake MIchigan. Sorry just dazed and confused right now LongHaul:)

A friend of mine saw my post here and reminded me that White Hall MIchigan is practically on the WEST shore of Lake Michigan. 10 miles east would make for a mighty soggy camp! Owasippe lies to the WEST of White Hall. Actually I should say Camps becasue we have more than one on the reservation. Camp Black Hawk is a dinning hall camp with swimming in Big Blue Lake. Camp Wolverine the meals are delivered to your site three times a day so it's troop camping without the cooking and cleaning. Swimming is in a pool. I believe a troop can still arrange to use Camp Hiawatha Beach which is lone troop and requires the troop to buy food and do the whole lone troop thing. Aquatics would be in Big Blue Lake. Camp Carlen offers program for senior scouts and Venturing Crews. Swimming in a pool. Camp Robert Crown offers high adventure treks in backpacking and canoeing. LongHaul