LongHaul

emb021, I don't dispute what you say, though I can't find my insignia guide right now(@#$%^) I wonder why every boy and leader was issued two region patches which said "2005 National Scout Jamboree" and under that in gold it says "central region" These were worn on the left sleeve under the flag. Was the central region the only ones who did this? LongHaul I know that when I attended the 64 and 69 Jamborees we all recieved region slides and region 7 patches for our left sleeves.

I am not advocating not punishing him but when two people do the same thing the consequences should be the same for both. The law was informed and chose not to act, why, could it have been that there was not enough evidence, was the admission of quilt valid in the eyes of the law? We really know very little about this, my position is that if Rikki's statement that the second boy, the one who brought the drugs and provided the drugs was not sent an expulsion letter then the boy in question should not have been expelled. LongHaul

He didn't plead guilty to it he plead guilty to a lesser charge in hope that it would go away which is exactly what would have happened if it was you or I. If I run my hand over my face and wink and you think it's a solicitation am I guilty of that crime solicitation? I think this cop jumped the gun. He probably gets away with that because people he arrests don't have the resources to make a case about it. Merlyn, so it's against the law to move your hand under the partition between stalls in the mens room? I wonder if the law that states this also included the womens room. The man could have walked up to a female in the lounge and out right asked her if she wanted to go off into the corner and have sex and not broken a law as long as money didn't change hands. If they did just go into the corner that would be a crime but in reality nothing happened. So John if this was you for some reason you'd be cool with the fact that you had been arrested for a sex crime even though you did not actually do anything. Most applications ask if you have ever been arrested not if you were convicted. You'd win you case in court but be in violation of BSA registration requirements. Ranger being in denial of your sexuality is not a crime. I still wonder if wiggling your hand under a partition in Minneapolis is. What should be illegal is ENGAGING in sexual acts not wanting to engage in sexual acts. Just how would someone go about engaging in a lewd act without being in the same stall? I still think this whole thing stinks, justice wise. LongHaul

Most of you know that I have no love for the Republican Party Agenda and hence the Republican Congresspersons. What bothers me even more is injustice. In reading an account of the problems Senator Larry Craig is having right now I came upon a statement that just stopped me cold. "Craig was arrested on June 11 in the Minneapolis airport men's room after an undercover officer observed conduct that he said was "often used by persons communicating a desire to engage in sexual conduct." Are the Minneapolis Police aware of the existence of what we in Chicago call "singles bars"? I wonder what would have happened if Craig had done exactly the same things in the airport lounge? LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Any chance it could be shipped? Some people like to wine taste, I like to sample local brews. LongHaul Brain engaged after I hit submit and I googled Moose Drool.(DUH) Got the web site and ordered some.(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

First let me make it clear that I do not condone illegal activity, especially on Council Property. Slipping of to town makes all the difference in that it is off scout property. Committing an illegal act on scout p[roperty is adding insult to injury. Packsaddle, Moose Drool? Is this a local brand or a pet name?

nldscout, As I read Rikki12's posts I see several things >>Unlike the camp staff that was expected to provide training, supervision, and interaction and was lacking in all areas, the boy did take responsibility for his actions.<< This leads me to believe that the boy in question was NOT on staff but was a camper. This relates to him being in a positions of responsibility that taking drugs would have compromised. Later posts make it unclear as to whether the boy was a staff member. (Incidents of adult staff threatening youth staff with dismissal and/or replacement) Then I see >>As I said, another boy brought it to camp. The boy in question was curious and tried it. Apparently someone saw, went to admin and reported it. A couple hours after the incident the boys were called to admin, questioned by admin and law and then picked up by their parents.<< This leads me to understand that the "law" was involved and found no evidence of drug use. When you refer to the seriousness of the action I wonder to whom are you referring. Serious in the eyes of the law? Law apparently does not find evidence of a crime. In the eyes of admin? Evidently possession, transportation, distribution are not serious enough for expulsion. (If indeed that is the case.) You speak of the repercussions people have seen for doing what this boy did, what is the purpose of these "sentences"? We impose fines and sentences to try to detour repetition of the act. The message I see being delivered here is honesty is not rewarded. Had this boy remained silent would we be having this debate? Serious because it was a breech of the law? We all are guilty of that if we want to take the letter of the law to it's extreme. Had the joint been a cigarette would the reactions have been the same? How about a can of beer? As a Judge have you incarcerated first time alcohol users? LongHaul

First I would like to say that as a person that has suffered with ADD all his life and has two sons that also suffer from this condition IMO it is a contributing factor in decision making BUT when it is offered as an excuse for bad decision making it is just that an excuse. If this boys decision making powers are such that ADD is his defense then he should under NO circumstances be allowed to be in a position of responsibility because he admittedly is not responsible. As to the expulsion, I believe it was unwarranted in this case and unjustified in light of the fact that the punishment was not equally administered. As to the belief that this was not the boys first encounter with illegal drugs I must remind everyone that there has to be a first time. The first time I was offered a joint was 1968 at the World Jamboree in Idaho. Admittedly I led a sheltered life as far as some things went. I dont remember even hearing about marihuana in high school. Had I accepted the offer to join my fellow scouts in partaking it would indeed have been my first time. I know first hand of scouts that were exposed for the first time to marihuana at camp, this scout did not accept the offer and reported the incident which resulted in several adults walking into a staff cabin that still had smoke in the air but no actual drugs still present. Everyone in the cabin was fired and sent home but I do not believe anyone was expelled from scouting. My point is that it could very well have been this boys first time and in light of the manner in which it was handled Id have to ask what lesson was taught here. As a former staff member I have to respond to the reference of a nanny doing something on his/her own time and doing something OTJ on the job. The incident I described that I personally know about occurred well after lights out and not in the presence of any campers. Should this not be considered a boys own time? I know of many adult leaders while at camp that slip off to town in the evening. I know many adult staff that slip off to town while off duty. These people are up at camp for 7 or 8 weeks and should be allowed personal time. My question here is what is the difference other than the legality issue? Do we only consider ourselves to be leaders or scoutmasters when scouts are present? Am I not a SM 24/7 ? When we have taken down camp at the end of the summer it is customary to celebrate with a trip to town for everyone. We go to a bowling alley that has a large game room and serves food and liquor. The rule is no uniforms and the adults make use of the bar. The message I see here is that it is OK to drink just dont do it in uniform. Yes I drank, I even tended bar one year when there was a staff shortage at the bowling alley. LongHaul Gern, other than those directly involved with the molestation case do you think there are true scouters that think denial and evasion are proper methods of dealing with those cases?

Rikki12, How about sharing the whole story with us? Your posts leave me to believe this happened at a Council Camp. Where any other scouts involved? Were any other scouts parents required to pick up their son? Where any other scouts involved also sent expulsion letters? are you seriously saying that any boy who is not in scouting sits upon the garbage heap of humanity? How about the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. LongHaul

Lugnuts Dad brings up a good point. I doubt that National would allow the uniform to be associated with a political campaign but I could be wrong. My guess is that the Sopranos got permission (another head scratcher) and that because the Hilary spot was a "spoof" they don't need permission, much the same with needing permission to copy song lyrics. LongHaul

Thank you packsaddle, you saved me from a long reply, Ill accept that jambo is new and has not read many of my previous posts. Thanks also to ASM 915 for pointing out that as an SM one should be prepared for questions concerning the faith of every scout in his troop. In my capacity of Religious Award Instructor I do indeed teach doctrine to SOME of my scouts. As this is an ongoing project I make use of idle time when and where it presents itself as I do with all advancement. In my capacity of SM, I must be able to discuss the Religious Award requirements of all faiths represented in my troop and outside my troop and be able to discuss why the scout should want to earn his Religious Award. How do I do this without delving into religious beliefs? As for politics, how can we as SMs encourage our scouts to work on their Citizenship mbs without accepting that each of them asks the scout to make himself more aware of the political side of our governmental system? Citizenship in the Nation req #8 asks that the scout pick a national issue and write to a congressman about it. Name me a national issue that does not end up becoming political. Jambo, when you made the statement that leaders should stay out of religion and politics you voiced an opinion on a subject. When others voice their opinion on the same subject you claim we are trying to draw you into an argument and then repeat your original position on the subject. Is this how you teach your scouts to be better citizens, state their position and refuse to acknowledge that other views could be valid? Sounds political to me. Politics extends beyond governmental boundaries; do think the term Politically Correct has to do with getting elected or with interacting with your fellow citizens? Taking sides and discussing the views of these sides is not the same thing. LongHaul

What I'm getting is a long list of "http://www/xvgao..." in the history. So you can't go back to your last screen. Anybody with more computer savvy than I know if this is dangerous? LongHaul (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

>>My opinion: " Scout leaders should stay out of politics and religion" it's scouting, and not a debating society ! jambo

As for the "zero" thing the Mayans used the concept before the Indians but the Mayan concept never made it out of Mexico where as as fgoodwin states the Indian concept was used by other peoples. LongHaul

emb021, That is why I said IMO. The insignia guide specifically states that if the neckerchief is not worn OVER the collar the collar should be unbuttoned. I just think wearing it under the collar with an open collar looks the same as wearing a long hand tie under the collar with the collar unbuttoned, sloppy. LongHaul

>>When the president takes his oath of office, he is swearing on the good book<< Which would be fine for Ed but what significance would it have for Merlyn were he even willing to swear on that book in the first place? In Gone With the Wind, Rhett Butler is asked to swear upon his honor as a gentleman. As he does not consider himself to be a gentleman he agrees to swear but makes the point of saying On my honor as a Gentleman?. The impression is that were he asked to swear upon his honor as a man he would not have done so. Is it not your honor as a God fearing person that gives relevance to swearing upon the good book in the first place? The Scout Oath reads On my honor I will do my best... It does not say On my honor I will TRY to do my best... This distinction is something we have lost in this country. If you were talking with your son about sex, drugs, alcohol use, criminal behavior, and his response was Ill try not to cross those lines would that be acceptable? If he said Ok Dad I wont do those things Would not your belief in his sincerity be based upon your trust in his honor? You believe him based on whether you think you can take him at his word. IMO if you are going to wear the neckerchief under the color the collar should be buttoned same as if you were wearing a long hand tie. The slide is then positioned where a knot in the long hand tie would be. Worn over the collar the slide is positioned so that the neckerchief lies flat along the top edge of the collar. I personally fold my collar under and position the slide such that some skin does show. There have probably been times, at camp for one, when that patch of skin has not been clean but I would hope that it has never been dirty while I was in uniform. As a side note Rolling or folding the neckerchief has also become a lost practice. I see so many neckerchiefs being worn so they look like a diaper around the neck. The back triangle collar to tip should be no more than the length of a dollar bill and the line across the top of the neckerchief when worn should be crisp. LongHaul

What does "On my honor" mean if it's not a oath equal to "I solemly swear"? By the way I'm told all the scouts with the exception of some US scouts wear the neckerchief on top of the colar. LongHaul

Emb021 talks about the use of neckerchiefs at the World Jamboree. The scouts I have talked to that attended tell me that in other countries the neckerchief is used similarly to our temporary patch. They have neckerchiefs for events instead of patches; patches are not very popular in fact. Scouts were wearing as many as three neckerchiefs at a time Im told. Neckerchiefs for special events would be worn for about three months after attending and then would be replaced by a different one. My boys tell me that some scouts would change neckerchiefs during the day. One of the Jamboree issue neckerchiefs had the logo One Promise One World. This spurred some interesting conversations. Seems the Oath or Promise in other countries is held in a different esteem than here in the states. While we say the oath at the beginning of every meeting and start to have Webelos recite it in preparation for crossover, other countries regard the Oath/Promise as a very personal commitment. One leader told me she was much moved when some UK scouts were telling the group she was with about when they took their oaths. These UK scouts said each planned something special, a hike to a special place, at sunrise from a moving spot; some were moved to tears as they recalled their oath taking. Maybe we have lost something more important in the US than the love for the neckerchief. LongHaul

I respect that there needs to be a separation of the branches of government and safe guards. What comes to mind however is the ever popular "If you have nothing to hide why are you worried?" that congress repeatedly offers up as justification for continued attacks on personal liberties. Voting records should be public domain not protected. What are these Congress people hiding and from whom? They don't want the "politics" of government to be made public because if everyone knew the specifics of all the wheeling and dealing they may not like it. If you ran a business and your employees wanted protection from you so you could not look into what they do while on the clock would you find that acceptable? Every elected official works for the people in the area that they serve. They are employees. This may be the oldest established government currently operating but if the American voting public does not wake up and take more interest into how it is being administered it may very well become one of the most corrupt. LongHaul

Just found out that the Federal courts have thrown out all the evidence in the case I was referring to, you know the one where they found all the cash stuffed in the freezer. (The evidence was thrown out and the case dismissed the cash?) Anyway the Justice Dept was investigating this guy for taking bribes. They went in and found the cash and took documents from his office among which were documents pertaining to the congressman's voting record. The courts have ruled it an illegal search because the warrant listed the documents pertaining to voting and that type of information is protected under the law. This guy's rights and the "sanctity" of a congress person's office were protected by the very laws the "offended" congresspeople were so eager to circumvent. God I love this country, never a dull moment. LongHaul

No, Ea I don't believe God has ever changed his/her mind. IMO that's a good thing because if he/she ever does we will never know we just won't be here anymore. LongHaul

Dan, I find the books totally out of line. Yes I've seen one. Unless you are going to get all the way into the subject telling primary grade children what is and is not morally correct behavior is not the responsibility of any school district. I understand the concept of diversity and hope that this world embraces it more than it does now but not with a "See Dick Run" approach. Should we include books and class time for separatists and white or black power or doesn't "diversity" include everyone that has a different attitude. How about those that side with the fundamentalist group do they get equal time to tell their side? I see this type of approach to be indoctrination not education. THOROUGHLY explain all the sides and let the child decide for themselves what they think is acceptable. Would you also support the teaching that the political views and positions of who ever is in power are the proper views? No opposing views can be taught? Primary school children don't understand nor are they curious about the gay issues UNLESS they are directly exposed to them in their daily life as your children are. The explanations need to come from parents not government. LongHaul

OA is not part of the Cub Scout program. When I was part of the elections team I remember that an Adult could not be nominated if no youth had been elected. The adult application was like a rider on the Troop election form. Things could have changed. LongHaul

Several times now I seen reference to a not wanting a leader to discuss homosexuality with a cub scout. Is "Age appropriate" just a term we use in Chicago? Can someone tell me just what degree of... I can't even think of how to word this! Why would you find it necessary to discuss sexual anything with a cub scout? Sexual abuse yes but only to the degree that you need to decide who to report it to. I'm associated with a Pack in a VERY liberal area. I've been told by most of the parents that they are opposed to the gay ban and a few actually asked if the Pack could openly announce to the boys that while National opposes gay rights (their words not mine) our Pack believes that there is nothing wrong with being gay. I'm not like packsaddle, in another thread he has described the lengths he has gone to to try and work with a "misguided" SM concerning an Eagle project. Packsaddle is a far better man than I in that respect. I do not tolerate fools well, and if those parents had not approached me at a Pack night where boys and other leaders were present I'd have gone nuclear. IMO you don't discuss sex in any way shape or form with Cub scouts. LongHaul

Yes Gonzo Coke syrup, it's flammable. If you ever get a chance to look at one of the boxes the stuff comes in you will see a red diamond with a number 3 in the bottom. Get into a wreck with 40,000 lbs. of that stuff and a little diesel and you can cook a lot of marshmallows. LongHaul