LongHaul

Just wondering here if this extends to advancement. Does your unit allow youth to sign off on requirements or is all testing/evaluating done by adults? Also how do you reconcile the idea that the youth are supposed to be competent enough to elect a person to office, or in the case of some offices appoint this person with the advice and consent of the SM, but not competent enough to admit they made a mistake and remove that person from office? LongHaul

>>What about an SE who requires his DEs to call every scout who is "lined thru" on the recharter roster. If the parent says, "yes we still want to belong", he is added back to the roster and the unit sent a bill for the fee. It doesn''''t matter if the scout hasn''''t been seen in a year. << Not only would we not pay the "bill" I would have my COR contact the SE and DE directly and REMIND them that the CO must approve the chartering of every person on the roster. If that roster and subsequent charter was altered after I and the CO signed the document it is FRAUD on the part of the SE and DE. LongHaul

OGE, I like the approach and think in the long run it can work but it''s your Council''s NEXT annual report that will tell the story. According to the info at http://www.minsitrails.com/Documents/Newsletter/Jan2007/final.pdf the new mandatory requirements didn''t go into effect until 2006. As I read this the weeding out of untrained leaders took place this past January with the 2007 charters. As you are a member of this Council, am I reading this wrong? LongHaul

If the boy transfers to another unit we forward his funds to that unit. If he ages out but stays active he can use his funds to pay his leader fees for Summer Camp, Philmont etc. Money is never given directly to scouts or families. We do allow for the reimbursement for Scouting related equipment. I can see Beavah''s point on this and accept it is a valid concern however when we sell popcorn for the benefit of the council, the unit and the prizes, gift cards etc that individual boy gets where does the money come from for those prizes? If he buys a tent from his end of the sale it''s wrong but if he gets the tent from the prize list it is OK? IN any case if a boy leaves scouting the funds revert to the unit. LongHaul

Subject: Recall Notice - Cub Scout Immediate Recognition Kit > > Statement from Boy Scouts of America, National Office > > A routine test of Boy Scouts of America products has shown that one > component of the Cub Scout Immediate Recognition Kit, No. 01804, contains > unacceptable amounts of lead. > > The kit contains a decoration that is worn on a boy''s uniform shirt, not > typically placed in the mouth, ingested, or in contact with the skin. No > illness or injury related to product use has been reported to the BSA or > the > supplier, Kahoot Products Inc. > > The BSA has directed its Scout shops and retailers to remove the product > from their shelves immediately and return it to us. > > > The supplier, Kahoot, has called for a voluntary consumer recall of all > kits > and has urged those who have purchased the item, since the year 2000, to > remove the recognition totem from their child''s possession until the > details > of the recall have been worked out with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety > Commission. > > The BSA is posting this recall notice on its Web sites and will place > consumer alerts in its member magazines. We appreciate the media''s > cooperation in disseminating news of these actions. > > The Boy Scouts of America''s highest priority is the safety of its youth > members and their families. We apologize for any concern this matter has > caused and will continue to do everything possible to help ensure the > health > and safety of all those who participate in our programs. > > Q&A > > Q1. How many of the recalled products have been purchased? How long have > they been manufactured? > > A1. The test sample was conducted on the most recent shipment. We do not > know if previous lots had a similar problem, so the recall notice > encompasses > all kits, whenever purchased. The BSA has received no report of > illness or injury regarding this item. This was the first product to show > any problem, and similar tests of other products also have shown no such > problems. The BSA and Kahoot Products are researching whether that one > item, > the entire lot, or the total manufacture of the kit was affected. We will > respond appropriately depending on the distribution level of items that > will > be subject to recall. > > Some 20,000 kits containing 10 decorations per kit have been sold annually > for the last seven years. > > Q2. How was this problem discovered? > > A2. This test was part of a routine inspection of a large group of BSA > products and apparel. > > Q3. Where was the product manufactured? > > A3. China. This product was the first to show any problem. Similar tests > of > products received directly from China have detected no problems. > > Q4. How often are BSA products tested? > > A4. We recently began requiring all BSA products to be tested for > compliance > with lead paint regulations. This product is the first of 94 items tested > to > show excessive lead content. Consumer safety concerns, not any report of > illness or injury, prompted our testing initiative. > > Q5. Is it true that lead was in the paint? > > A5. Yes. Lead was detected in yellow and blue paint used in the > manufacture. > > Q6. Why have you not tested these products before? > > A6. We require and expect that all products supplied to the BSA conform to > all rules, regulations, and laws of the United States. Our testing is a > result of our diligence to ensure our suppliers comply with these > regulations. > > Q7. What will be the process for replacing the kits? > > A7. Further instructions will be provided when the recall is announced. > For > now, parents should ensure that the totems are removed from their > children''s > possession. At this time, our efforts are concentrating on the safety of > Scouts and their families. > > Q8. How many BSA products have been tested? > > A8. All other products sourced directly to the BSA from offshore have been > tested and have passed inspection. Our domestic suppliers are responsible > for testing the products they have sourced. > > Q9. I thought all BSA merchandise was manufactured in the United States. > Now > you are going to China? > > A9. Our supplier, Kahoot, is an American company. The BSA seeks out the > best > suppliers of merchandise, and in today''s economy, the best suppliers may > source some or all of their products from foreign manufacturers. > > Q10. What can I do to ensure my child''s safety? > > A10. Consider the supplier. This is the BSA''s first product recall in > several years, and the first one of this magnitude, but we are not aware > of > any illness or injury resulting from the use of this product. If you are > concerned about your child''s safety in connection with the present matter, > consult your doctor or other health care professional. > > Q11. Will there be more recalls? > A01. We can promise only that we will remain vigilant in maintaining > product > quality and safety. Again, we are not aware of any illness or injury > resulting from the use of this product. > > Q12. How can I trust that other BSA products are safe? > > A12. Our customers can be confident that we will remain vigilant in > maintaining product quality and safety. Once again, we are not aware of > any > illness or injury resulting from the use of this product. > > Inquiries regarding this recall should be directed to Kahoot Productions, > Inc., > at 770-522-2921. Additionally, Kahoot is working to establish a toll-free > consumer > hotline for parents and other concerned parties, which wiill post on > www.scouting.org under the Cub Scout link.

First I''d like to know why a MC is telling a DL anything. Unless this MC is in fact CC or COR it''s not his/her position to be telling the DL what or how to run his/her den. As far as regs on Den accounts the final say rests with the CO and how they view the situation. Money raised by the den LEGALLY was raised in the name of the CO with the understanding that it be used to fund the den activity. This makes the CO accountable to the parents of the den members, legally responsible to report said funds as income when filing their yearly financial statements IN CERTAIN STATES. As the Pack is the extension of the Scouting Program chartered by the CO, National has few if any hard fast regulations about unit/den checking accounts. This is left to the CO and is usually delegated to the unit. LongHaul

infoscouter, The decision to be with his age group or grade level is the scout''s and his families decision UNLESS it is a LDS unit which follow a different set of guidelines. How LDS handle gifted and educationally challenged scouts is dictated by religion and not National policy. My youngest son skipped second grade, why would a Pack require that he skip Bear and go directly to Webelos I? Had he been asked to repeat first grade why would a Pack require that he repeat Wolf which he had already earned? There is no National policy that stipulates a one or the other Pack wide system for scout placement in a den. LongHaul

John-in-KC, I was a youth member from 1960 Thur 1967 and our troop was entirely Boy Run. We had adult support but the boys ran the meetings,taught the skills, and the SPL evaluated youth leaders. If someone was not doing their job the SM (my father so I know) was asked to formally remove that boy from office. Yes before the SPL got to that point efforts were made by the SPL to have some youth member help the problem scout and yes on occasion an adult was asked to 1 to 1 mentor the scout but that was a decision made by the SPL not the adult leadership. Back then the average scout looked differently at scouting and the POR. Back then the POR requirement read "Serve to the satisfaction of your Scoutmaster in one or more of the following positions of responsibility" so we didn''t have the time in grade problem. If being removed from office is the difference between a scout staying or leaving a lack of responsibilty is not the problem. Reaching out to youth is the adult members number one responsibility. Helping them make ethical decisions and accept responsibility. Getting them to develop a moral code and values worthy of passing down to others. But empowering them to make these decisions and helping them to realize their plans is what the job calls for up front. The original post was about a group of youth leaders that wanted to implement a system of quality control and the initial responses were to suggest methods for the adults to resist those efforts by the youth and deal with the situation from an adult level. I remained active after turning 18 and when I turned 22 was asked to take over a troop whose SM had suffered a heart attack, so the COR could find a suitable replacement. My biggest job was to stay out of the way and allow the Senior Patrol to run their troop as they had been doing and not try and turn them into my old troop. They did things very different but after a few months I realized they did the same things we had and got them done just differently. What I saw also is that both sets of Youth Leaders got them done without Adult interference but with adult support. In soccer we teach support from the rear, works well in Scouting too. LongHaul

From a while back in this thread Brent Allen asked; >>Interesting how the two different councils are handling that issue.

PeteM, >>So, If he doesn''''t care to have contact with the leaders of his troop, then he is considered ''''in-active''''.<< I''ve read the noted material in the Advancement Proceedures publication several times and I just can''t find where it says that. You can interperate what it actually does say any way you like but it will not change what it actually does say. As has been noted in previous posts to this thread the phrasing by National is meant to be as inclusive as possible and "paid up +active". LongHaul

OGO, as long as you accept that he is on your inactive list because YOU chose to place him there. What National has said basically is that as long as his registration fees are paid the ball remains in your court. Don''t accept his registration fee but if you do then you must continue to contact him on a regular basis or not hold it against him for advancement. LongHaul

OGO, you missed one in your examples of "what if a boy stopped showing up" What if a boy stopped showing up to school? should we call him? should we send someone to his house to try and contact him? should we engage the parents? Should we try and exert some kind of pressure on this boy to return? The answer is it all depends on how important you think attendance at WHATEVER is in the long run. I think Scouting is very important. LongHaul

I am truly amazed at the predominately negative responses hotdesk has received. For years I''ve been reading threads about boys that want credit for POR time when they have done nothing except accept the position originally. We have gone back and forth about National''s position that time accumulates unless the boy has been officially removed from his position AND that time accrued between accepting the position and being removed from the position counts toward POR time served. We have gone on infinitum about Boy Led and empowering the SPL and PLC. Along comes a PLC that wants to do something about boys that accept responsibility but do not live up to the troop''s needs in that position and the majority crys Hold! >>If I was a scout, I''d want to know why this new document wasn''''t given to the SM and SA''''s at the same time as the PLC<< What? If the adults are lacking in their positions we should not expect the boys to hold up their responsibilities. We all know SM LongHaul uses alcohol, never in uniform never around the scouts, but we all know it so bottoms up boys??? John-in-KC with 2265 posts suggests JLT,JLTC,NLT,Mentoring,1 to 1 counseling all the while the clock is ticking, POR time is being accumulated and the responsibilities of the position are not being done. The PLC does not have the minutes for the last meeting, the OA members of the troop didn''t get the OA info that was supposed to be disseminated, the pictures of the last campout were not taken or preserved. John goes on to say >>From what I understand of the ACP&P BSA #33088, removing a Scout from his POR is the only thing that can stop the tenure clock for 1C-Star, S-Life, and L-Eagle. It is a serious business, and can have serious consequences.<< So why all to talk about boys wanting credit for POR not fulfilled? It''s not about living up to your word of honor when you took the job, it''s not about your supporting your troop in the POR you''ve accepted, it''s not about being BOY LED ( all the talk about mentoring by an adult) It''s about hurting someones feeling or blackening someones reputation. Can''t make Johnnie feel bad. Seems to me this mentoring is just a way to keep Adults in the picture, if your mentoring of the example this boy had for this position didn''t show him what was expected what makes you think your mentoring of this scout will help the next scout? Sure you can try and reach this scout but in a boy led troop when do you shoot for lead by example? If your not doing the job your out. The example is if you take a job be ready to actually do it. hotdesk, I don''t have the large number of posts some of my forum fellows have but I do have better than 15 years OTJ as an SM. Mentor your SPL and PLC to see that this doesn''t turn into a power trip. Make sure they know this is a new step and the parameters must be loose at first and can be tightened as examples of positive performance are shown. By that I mean the expectation of a troop scribe should be initially influenced by what kind of example this new scribe has had. As the jobs are done better the expectations can rise to fill troop needs. LongHaul

>>Boys who have completed second grade, or who are nine years old, are eligible to join the Bear Den. At this point they begin earning the Bear Badge. Once a boy turns nine years old, if he has not completed the Wolf Badge he can no longer work on the requirements for the Wolf Badge... only the Bear Badge. This keeps the boys in the same age group working on the same level and activities.<< There is a little wiggle room with Cub Advancement. National uses age and grade distinctions for a reason. If a boy is gifted and skips a grade he is not required to also skip a year of Cub Scouts, he would stay with his age group. By the same token if a boy has a educational problem and repeats a grade he would not be asked to repeat a rank group, he would stay with his age group again. This means that a gifted Wolf who''s birthday falls in April and started school early (age wise) would not start working on his Bear badge until he completed 2nd grade. A Wolf whose birthday falls in September would become a Bear as soon as he completed 2nd grade even though he would not be 9 years old yet. LongHaul

When looking at requirements and sometimes even laws we use the tern "intent". What was National''s intent when they extended the effort of putting a definition of Active in the new Advancement Procedures publication? Why was this definition necessary? If attendance at meetings was intended to be a factor why not state that? Why would National instead word it''s definition so that they call attention to registration, disciplinary expulsion, and unit leader engagement but nothing else? As always we as unit leaders can do just about anything we want in interpreting the requirements without fear of disciplinary expulsion. The unit I''m involved with still has the LC wear dark green shirts and LC patches. When a boy gets out of line he is told to do push ups by one of the LC. Close order drill is still part of the Troop overall program. The adult leadership see these things as definite factors in why we have 8 Senior Patrol scouts that are juniors and seniors. We have senior scouts that are involved with every pack within a mile radius of our unit. Living in Chicago proper that includes about 8 packs. There is always someone to show up when asked to do something extra. Does that make it right? NO, does that make it in compliance with current National policy? No, are we going to change? No, but we are not going to pretend we don''t know we are not in compliance either. LongHaul

>>If a boy doesn''''t show up regularly, he has not been "engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis" due to actions of his own choosing, and would therefore not be considered active

Lisabob, District Committees are not supposed to recruit from direct contact scouters either. As a MC you are not considered a direct contact leader but can you accept that your District Committee duties take time that may be devoted to your unit? Over the years I''ve seen too many scouters burnt out by trying to fill too many positions. As a UC how many units are you responsible to/for? IN my area it could be anywhere from 2 to 6. That''s a lot of hours if the job is done right. If your District position requires weekly time what is left for the unit? The people I''ve always seen as the Commissioner pool are those unit leaders that have been around 6 or 7 years. Let''s look at the unit dynamic and assess the viability of the unit without this person or persons. Allowing a unit to grow and promoting new blood in key positions can improve program. The "experienced" leader can then share their wisdom. Newbees don''t make commissioners they make problems. Don''t tell me how to fix my problems if you have never done this yourself. Tell me what worked for you not what you read or were told. In response to the original question a serious DON''T would be never approach the CO and read them the Contract agreement without talking to the COR & CC first. Our local area got a new UC and after sitting in on a few committee meetings took it upon herself to approach each CO in turn and point out the things the CO had agreed to do. Major disaster costing our District several units. LongHaul

The link I sent was not from my council, Chicago Area Council will be the last council to comply with this. The only way I see CAC putting this into effect is if the sale of our final camp (Owasippi) actually comes to pass. We would have 35 million in the bank and National could effectively cause such a drop in numbers to justify disbanding CAC and merging it with the surrounding councils there by being able to take control of the funds. The quality of training varies from district to district to the point that the same course can be presented totally different. I think before mandatory training can be justified the training teams must demonstrate the ability to produce a quality presentation repeatedly. The Council Training Chair needs to monitor the trainings and see that they are uniform throughout the council. I do not see abridging the training to cut time so people will sign up as providing training. Is see it as producing numbers on a training report to appease some ones boss. LongHaul

Lugnuts Dad, Hold on to any and all of the immediate recognition badges, the warning asks that we tell parents to remove them from the boy''s shirts and hold on to them unitl notified by National. LongHaul Scout Badges Recalled Over Lead Concerns DALLAS, Oct. 4, 2007(AP) The Boy Scouts of America said Thursday that a painted, plastic badge commonly worn by some of its youngest scouts is being voluntary recalled after a test revealed high levels of lead in the paint. As many as 1.6 million of the badges, which are made in China, may be affected by the recall. "We're doing everything we can," Boy Scouts spokesman Gregg Shields said. The plastic totem badge is given to Cub Scouts, who are usually between the ages of 7 and 8. The badge has a yellow and blue border, includes a picture of a bear and wolf and reads "Progress Toward Ranks." No illnesses have been reported, Shields said. The unacceptable amounts of lead were discovered during a testing of Boy Scouts products, Shields said. He did not know the level of lead the test revealed. The recall came the same day that the Consumer Product Safety Commission announced recalls of more than a half-million other Chinese-made products because they contain dangerous levels of lead. The badges are supplied by Kahoot Products Inc., based in Roswell, Ga. The company is calling for a voluntary recall of the badge and asking parents to take them away from their children. A phone message left with the company Thursday was not immediately returned. Kahoot has supplied the badge to the Boy Scouts, based in Irving, Texas, for about eight years, Shields said. About 20,000 kits containing the badges have been sold each year since, he said. The Boys Scouts are continuing to use Kahoot, which supplies 39 products to the organization. Shields said Kahoot has "acted responsibly in initiating this voluntary recall." Shields said the badge was the first of 94 Boy Scouts products tested to come back positive for lead. More products are being tested, he said. ____ On the Net: Boy Scouts: http://www.scouting.org/ (This message has been edited by LongHaul)(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Aquila, Being RECOGNIZED at a quarterly banquet is not the same as having to wait until the quarterly banquet to receive your rank advancement. So there are only two people present when you physically get the badge why is it diminished if all the parents and scouts are present when you are recognized. In the Troop the Court of Honor is when we present the pocket card to go along with the pocket patch which was awarded at the next regular meeting after the scouts BOR. As Pack CC the CM and I are trying to rebuild a struggling unit. We began in February with the new charter. Along with a theme every Pack meeting (we are using the Program Helps guideline) we wanted advancement every month. We got every excuse but a good one. At the third Pack meeting a parent came to me and asked why we were doing advancement again when we had already done it twice, she thought it was just a waste of money to give out patches for everything and awards that sit in a drawer. We introduced Brag Vests. Got a bolt of red felt, made card board templates, had the scouts trace out vests and cut them out at den meetings and sat at the next Pack meeting with every scout sewing their vest together down each side with a basic spiral stitch. You guessed it mom came up and asked if she had to sew all these useless patches and arrow points on this new vest. CM told he "No, the arrow points go on the uniform the patches for Blue and Gold and Pinewood derby and such go on the vest!" LongHaul

What are your opinions and how do you think this approach would be received in your District. LongHaul http://www.scatacook.org/TrainingRequired01.htm http://www.scatacook.org/TrainingRequired04-FAQs.htm

Some years back our council changed all the units from September recharter to Jan recharter. We paid 18 months registration one time and then went yearly. Your DE needs to wait one year and have your unit recharter for 10 months instead of 12 this coming March 2008. Rechartering in Jan 2008 at the $10 rate means you would be owed 60 days from you old charter which would be an accounting nightmare for the Council. LongHaul

Try National supply it"s 33070E now. LongHaul http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?ctlg=05NDC&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=BOOKS_LIT&C3=PAMPHLETS&C4=&LV=3&item=33070E&prodid=33070E^8^05NDC&

Don''t find a listing for that number, what is the subject? LongHaul

>>The first amendment didn''t apply at all to the states until the 14th amendment and subsequent incorporation rulings. But even ignoring that, James Madison, the guy who actually WROTE the first amendment, had said it covers more than just a prohibition against a national church.<< Merlyn, just what was it you WERE trying to convey with that statement. Where you reminding us that freedom of speech and Assembly are part of the first amendment as well? Sounded like you were saying that Madison intended the prohibition to extend to the States. LongHaul