LongHaul

First let me reply to eolesen's post. Owasippe is right about 200 miles from Chicago it's about a 3.5 hr drive. Our neighbor to the north, NorthEast Illinois Council has it's Summer camp in Pearson Wisconsin about 285 miles away at 5 hours drive and they are expanding. A foot note is that the current SE from CAC was SE in NEIC and did try to sell their camp but was stopped by the executive board. As for the elections.... After the slate was turned down National sent a representative to "speak" with the voting members. The voting members were told in no uncertain terms that; Our SE would remain until the Owasippe issue has been resolved; that the law suit against the executive board must be dropped; and if the slate was not approved as is, National would seat a slate of it's choosing and would not renew the Charter for Chicago Area Council. The council would then be disband and the area would be divided up between neighboring councils. All assets (Owasippe and the bank account containing the profits from the sale of CAC's only other camp) would revert to National. Fearing the loss of the Council the voting members voted 26 to 17 to approve the slate. LongHaul

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The waters are rising and running bright green with the monies being spent by both sides in the battle. Currently this case is in its second week before a judge in the 14th Circuit Court in Muskegon Michigan. The Chicago Area Council attorneys, along with the Scout executive and Council President have been trying to convince the court that the development and creation of 1278 residential sites and the influx of a projected 3604 residents on the 4765acres now comprising the Owasippe Scout Reservation would not negatively impact the community. It is the Councils position that the 4765 acres in dispute are not unique, pristine or in need of being preserved. It is the Councils position that the 9000 youth now being served by CAC do not need a council owned camping facility. The Council plans to appeal any negative ruling by the court. An addendum to this case is the removal of all former Owasippe Staff members from the Council Camping Committee, and the announcement that the Owasippe Staff Association will no longer be involved in the Counselor in Training courses for new staff, which the OSA has produced for the last 27 years. LongHaul

Personally I've always thought there should be a sewing merit badge. Not just patches and buttons either. LongHaul

Just a question here and not a criticism. If a boy has one of the outdoor group Cooking, Camping , Hiking, Backpacking should the counselor for all the others just accept that requirement 1 has been partially if not completely satisfied? I've never seen in print that work for one badge cannot be used for completing another, except where it is specifically noted in the requirements book and then it usually references another badge. Got another wrinkle as long as we are being specific, as a Swimming merit badge counselor I am not designated as a person allowed to sign off rank requirements for most troops. SO if a boy that is not already 1st Class and does not have the swimming requirements signed off in his book comes to me with a signed Blue Card am I supposed to tell him I can't work with him on anything except requirements 1 & 2? Req #3 specifically states that before he does anything else he must COMPLETE the 2nd class and 1st Class requirements. The requirement is not complete until it is signed off, if I have the boy do the things listed and his SM does not accept my authority then the requirements are not complete and the boy should not have gone forward. LongHaul

Sorry folks, don;t know why "it" did that but trying to edit just made it worse. LH

The old style mess kit employed a cover held on by the handle for the "skillet/plate" This can be used to cook the corn bread in just support it using empty soda cans and place 4 or five coals under it flip the kit half way thru baking. Box ovens work best is you can't get enough dutch ovens which are designed for the purpose. Reflector methods almost demand a wood fire as the ash on charcoal limits the radiant effects of the coals. In a real pinch we have used the large pot and frying pan cover from a standard trail kit as a dutch oven. Use an old one as it stains the pot and lid. Make two long strips of tin foil to cross under the plate or whatever you use inside the pot to hold your food while cooking so you can easily reach in grab the tinfoil handles and lift the food out. The plates fit rather snug in the pot. LongHaul http://www.lovetheoutdoors.com/camping/Cooking_Methods.htm http://www.netwoods.com/d-cooking.html#methods http://www.three-peaks.net/cooking.htm#Equipment http://www.outdoorcook.com/article1026.php http://www.dutchovencookware.com/dutch-oven-recipes.html

The general rule of thumb is that Merit Badge work can be used to fulfill rank requirements but can not be used to fulfill other merit badge requirements. Example is hikes used to fulfill hiking merit badge can be used to fulfill 2nd and 1st class rank requirements but not requirements for backpacking or camping. That being said I have to ask how this "duel credit" is being established. Is the scout asking to be signed off for First Class cooking requirements because he has Cooking merit badge or is he asking his meritbadge counselor for credit on Cooking merit badge because he is First Class? The actual requirements are different "Plan a menu" and "Help plan a patrol menu" are not the same. "Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch" "Sleep in a tent you pitched" sound familiar? The rank requirements are usually worded to take into account the fact that a boy is a member of his patrol. Merit Badge work is usually worded with the intent that the boy is doing the requirements on his own. LongHaul

I came up against this from a different angle. As an MBC is would like for the boy to talk with me before he begins his work, particularly with regard to Personal Management. When I was presented with work done prior to our first meeting, said work was in my opinion unacceptable. After appeals and problems with District and Council the response we got from National was the the information on pages 22 & 23 of the Requirements book are procedures NOT requirements. Said requirements are found listed under each Merit Badge Heading. The boy is REQUIRED to complete the REQUIREMENTS as listed, not following procedure is not in it self reason to deny a merit badge. Because I refused to issue a merit badge there was no grounds for an appeal according to National, I can not be forced to accept the work but I can be removed from the list of MBCs. I'm still a counselor, the boy GOT the badge from someone else who is also still a counselor. LongHaul

My solicitation of Beavah's advice is because he apparently is in some profession which causes him to deal with these type of issues professionally. The things that are posted to council web sites or distributed by councils may well be what they want you to do but no necessarily what the law says you should or must do. When it comes to Risk Management Councils protect National and themselves first. If talking to your SE could open you up to a civil suit for deformation I think the people I am training have a right to know that and I as a trainer have an obligation to tell them that. If I go against the Council's wishes they take away my membership card, if I go against the law they take away my house and put me in jail. Hmmm who do I want to test? LongHaul

Beavah, Strictly a request for information here. In the current YP Video there is a scenario in which a boy reveals he was abused by a fellow scout while on a campout. Is it your position that the leader to whom this revelation is made should call the SE and SE alone? If one gets the secretary we wait for a call back, if we get voice mail we wait for a call back? We don't talk with the abused boy's parents? We don't alert the authorities in our local area ( where we would expect the predator to be). We don't alert the authorities in the jurisdiction where the alleged crime was committed? Second what do we do if the SE handles the situation as the SE in Grand Teton Council handled it and covers it up? Again I am seeking opinion here as I have to present yet another District wide YP class next month. My recommendation has always been; 1.Assure the boy it was not his fault and that you will protect him. 2. Do not let the boy out of your sight until you turn him over to a parent. 3. Explain to the boy that you are going to have to tell others what he has told you, that this is being done for his protection. 4. Contact the local division of your police department which deals with sex crimes. (This to protect other youth that may be at risk from this person right now) 5. Call the SE or number designated by your council. 6. Explain to the parents what the boy has told you and the steps you have taken. LongHaul

>>When the boy applies for Eagle National gets involved and the Council Advancement Chair/District Advancement Chair can "question" MBC's from out of Council (usually only eagle required). Nah, dat just doesn't happen, eh?<<< Beavah, Sometimes it seems your seated on a swinging pendulum. You switch between what is, what you think should be, and what is supposed to be and state each as hard fact. The truth is that it does happen. Should it happen? NO, will National overturn the decision IF the boy appeals and takes it that far? Yes, but it still happens. One of our CACs actually put it in writing that if a boy applies for Eagle and has more than three merit badges from the same counselor the app will be rejected. Another "memo" that has come down is that any Eagle required badge that has been earned at a merit badge day, merit badge clinic, merit badge college etc. will not be recognized with the exception of aquatics badges. On appeal the boy wins but it happens, it's a problem, and it needs to be considered when making the decision to contact or recommend a MBC. Stop and think of all the reasons a boy would not be advanced at an EBOR. Now tell me what requirement would be lacking. How about the last one "Successfully complete an Eagle board of review." The reasons that are given are many some are overturned some are not. Whichever the case "It does happen" LongHaul

As for going outside your council for merit badges you have two things to remember; 1. BSA Advancement is a National program. A registered MBC is a registered MBC for the purposes of advancement for the entire organization. A merit badge earned in Maine is good in Oregon. 2. This only becomes a real issue when a boy applies for Eagle. Until then the local troop deals with the question and it revolves around did the boy get approval from his Sm before he started the badge? Johnnie scout comes home from summer vacation with a blue card signed by someone the SM does not know claiming Johnnie has passed Swimming merit badge. The SM BASICALLY either a.)checks the MBC's credentials with the home council, b.) Say's "to bad you didn't talk with me first and tears up the card, or c.) signs the card and gives it to the Advancement Chair to record. When the boy applies for Eagle National gets involved and the Council Advancement Chair/District Advancement Chair can "question" MBC's from out of Council (usually only eagle required). My advice is when you go out of council be sure the MBC is registered in their council, be sure the SM is on-board, be sure the advancement paper work is filed. An email to the Councils/Districts in your drivable area should net you a list of counselors, "help other people at all times". As for limiting the boys you will counsel. I think a MBC should be a MBC and that is that. If a boy is turned down when he calls to begin work that should be reported to the DAC and it should be investigated. I just cringe when I sit on an EBOR and all the Eagle required badges were done with counselors from the boys own troop. LongHaul

Lisabob, First let me say I have no problem with what Michigan and Florida have done. Let me also say that I dont see why Iowa and New Hampshire should have such an influence on who the major parties support for the presidency. The idea that the DMP &RNP dont care about your vote is what confuses me. If my state isnt allowed to go first then my vote doesnt count? I always thought the primaries were intended to give the DNP & RNP an idea of who they should run for office not for the purpose of revenues. You say the feeling is that the system is broken why? Because it does not spread the wealth or because it does not generate the best candidates? Why are Michigan and Florida better suited to pick the candidates than Iowa and New Hampshire? How about if we have all the primaries on the same day? Cut down on the costs of campaigning in states your going win anyway and put your time in where you need to change opinion? How bout if we just scrap the primaries and do the election cold, no preview? Deciding something is broken should be done according to strict guidelines. Car wont start-its broke! The desired goal being that the car starts when you want and gets you where you are going. Lets decide why we have primaries and then decide if the current program is broke. Then we can move on to deciding the best method of fixing the system after we decide what our goals are, more local spending or better choices in candidates. As for the front runners bucking the party dont think for a minute that either party would allow a candidate to usurp power. Party politics works only as far as party loyalties allow. This is about power more than about party, having a Dem in office that wont support party line does little good in the power struggle. The possibility of Obama, Biden or Edwards winning the nomination against party wishes is very slim. They may win Michigan and Michigan may not have any vote at the convention. The real question should be why have the DNP & RNP been so steadfast since the 70s in holding on to the Iowa/New Hampshire kick off. Why not go with the state that represents the diversity of votes most reflective of the Nation as a whole? That would be Illinois by the way. LongHaul

Beavah, If National wants to distance itself from training why the push from National on the local Councils for trained leaders? So much time is spent at the Council Training meetings talking about diluting courses to increase attendance that some trainers, myself included, are getting getting ready to throw in the towel. kb6jra, Certification is only as good as the person issuing the certification. When the new millenium training was introduced my district put together a team to study it and prepare to present it to the volunteers. One thing we decided up front was to teach the syllabus at TRAINING and tell the new leaders how we really do it at ROUNDTABLE. We had to weed out alot of TTT and TDC certified people because they wanted to teach "how it works for me". LongHaul

I still say you need to protect yourself and the unit and put this thru channels. I would talk with the COR and try and have this woman banned from contact with your unit. Let her find another unit to bless with her time. LongHaul

Gern, I agree, I came into this thread late and as I was reading over page one I was composing my reply along "Give the Boy a chance" "Don''t ask and tell him not to tell" but when I got to the middle of page two >>Whatever a Boy Scout reveals to a Scouter, however - is probably not deniable. Though there are some issues with this Scouter''''s motivations and intentions, her information does appear to have some validity. In addition, this female Scouter is a "MySpace friend" to the Scout as well. The Scouter claims the Scout told her about "experimentation" that was happening at a campout and that the boy is or was dating another Scout! Again, this could all be heresay - I am considering the source, and the source is a whack job and a half!!!!

Lisabob, You have told us how you feel about the DNP and it''s response to Michigan''s decision to disregard Bi-partisan mandates for scheduling state primaries. You''ve told us how you feel about the Democratic candidates'' response to Michigan''s decision to disregard Bi-partisan mandates for scheduling state primaries. How do you feel about your states decision to move it''s primary out of pure greed? I''ll have to say that Michigan''s Gov. Jennifer Granholm didn''t try to say it was to get better choices or improve the election process, she admitted it was to try and get more campaigning done in Michigan and more campaign money spent there. The candidates have to consider "party policy" if they want to survive in "party politics." LongHaul

THANK YOU LISABOB Why is anyone still talking about this boys sexual orientation? I totally agree with Beavah''s advice and hope some adult will have a long sit down wit this boy BUT the alegation of sexual activity and "experimentation" ON A CAMPOUT puts this in a totally different court. Is it CO policy to ignor sexual activity on campouts? Is it troop policy to ignor sexual activity on campouts? Is it CO/Troop policy to say "As long as I don''t actually see it it''s OK my us?" Just what does it take for adults in this unit to stop and ask "What actually happened on this campout?" LongHaul

>>Once I see those names, maybe I can provide you with some who haven''''t received "oil" money.

I only posted the location, I had nothing to do with the reproduction. Woods Wisdom is out of print but I doubt it makes a difference. I agree over 600 single page entries is tough to read but when you are looking to reproduce or pass on a specific item it works great. LongHaul

For any of you that would rather do things on-line the old woods wisdom has been scanned and put on-line. http://www.moorecountyboyscouts.org/woodofwisedom/index.html great resource! Much of this is still available in hard copy in the Troop Program Features 1,2&3 LongHaul

Lets get something straight here. "The Government" refereed to in this article is the government of Great Britain. The credentials of the "Governments expert" are not given and the background of the case are not given. Let's all think back to the Reagan days when Secretary of the Interior James Watt and his experts justified lumbering the National Forest because trees produce oxygen which is a poisonous gas. Just because the "Governments expert" could not substantiate the claims made buy the documentary does not meanthose claimswere false. For the record I think Gore went overboard and, to put it nicely, has stretched the facts. I agree that the documentary should not be presented as fact but as an opinion. As for subjecting our students to matters of opinion let us all remember that a Democratic Republic is not the only form of government yet Communism, Socialism, Theocracies, Monarchies and the rest get little class time. Should students be allowed to refuse classes that don't give equal time to all forms of government on this planet? LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Why all this adult mentoring? Where was the example this scout had from the last person in that office? Why are we so adamant that the SPL has the competence to appoint a troop Scribe but not the competence to admit he picked the wrong person and correct his mistake? Do the adults do all the appointments? Boy Run means you work with the team the SM picks? hotdesk has an SPL that proposes giving a scout a detailed description of a position and asking that scout if he is willing to fill that position. If the scout accepts he then has the option to renegotiate the terms and duties with the SM in a SM conference? What ever happened to a chain of command? LongHaul

OGE, Sorry I was indeed misreading, actually I got it mixed up with the link I posted which is requireing all leaders to be trained under the new format. Does you Council recognize training taken before 2001 when it computes who has basic training for their position? In my council they decided to only target new leaders. When I took over as SM in 1993 I was considered trained because I had taken Scoutmaster training in 1971!!! LongHaul