LongHaul

Yes Merlyn that would be an obsurd way to operate and it's a good thing BSA doesn't. Joni4TA, I don't know where you got your adult application but it must have contained a typo. It should have asked that you agree to COMPLY with...... big difference between comply and support. Those things that we agreed to comply with change all the time. These things don't change if everyone agrees with the original, therefore, dissagreement with the rules as written is not necessarily cause for exspulsion. We can comply without agreement, we can disagree without being noncompliant. We can seek to change without being subversive. LH

In another thread we are commenting on a problem a troop is having in controlling scouts behavior. As background information nwscouttrainer posted this; The troop is actually one of the oldest troops in our council - operating since 1914. It has a reputation for being one of the best troops in the district, with several leaders being key players for the district and the council. The SM, ASM, Committee Chair, several committee members are all trained...even Woodbadge trained and, in fact, have served as Woodbadge staff the last few years. The average age of these leaders ranges from 50 to 83. Can anyone else see the paw prints of the Man Scout here? Average age of leader 50 to 83!!! Wood Badge staff for last few years!!! Go read the whole thread "Conflict among the scouts" and ask yourself where is the adult leadership in training the youth leaders, in supporting the youth leaders, in youth recruitment, in adult recruitment, in developing a program that leaves little time for argument. Off being Man Scouts is what come to mind for me. LH

I'd say you get whole cloth red felt at the store and make a larger vest when a boy grows out of the smaller version. The Scout Shop does have vests in XL but you may need to make even bigger ons for some scouts. Side note one of the patches on the red vest in the picture that comes with the store bought vest is from Owasippe my council camp. If the boys would wear patches on their Red Wool Jacket why would they have necessarily out grown wearing them on a red vest that fit? As a scout we wanted our patches unused for trading purposes but I earned several very striking patches from events and hikes that I really wanted to wear. LH

I don't know why the original thread was in Council Relations but I'll leave it here. I my self have recently accepted a position on the Commissioneer Staff. This question is for Commisoneer Staff that have never been direct contact leaders. Or were SM or ASM for a very short period. What constitutes a Quality program? How do you identify a Quality Program? How much time does it take to tell if a program is Quality or not. Where the people that trained you direct contact leaders for any length of time? If you are not a Commisioneer please start a new thread to express your views. LH (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

No judgments here just inquiry. Click23, what prompted you to return at the District level rather than find a troop that could use your help? The help you offer troops and your ability to "spot" a quality program come from where? Are you telling them what you know or what you've been told by someone else? I over looked the section of Man Scouts Brent pointed out and in some cases they are the most harmful. The adult that gets his "expertise" only from books and others but never OTJ hands on experience has a tendency to pigeon hole program. They are so determined to "help" create a "quality program" in someone else's troop that they can offed those in the direct contact positions. In the late 60's early 70's the Wood Badge Courses in my area were staffed mostly by men that had never been SMs. Never been actual direct contact leaders that ran a quality program. They found their place telling others how to do something they never did or never accomplished when they did try to do it. Turned a lot of adult scout leaders off. The Man Scouts I was warning about from the initial thread are in part reinforced by those Man Scouts at the District and Council levels. A leader that is prone to run "his" unit "his" way claims justification when confronted by someone that only knows what the book says or what's been told to them. I once met a professional scouter that actually said "Scouting would be a great program if it wasn't for the volunteers" I see Man Scouts as having the same outlook, "Scouting would be a great program if it wasn't for having to teach the youth". These adults want camping clubs, boy's clubs run by adults. They set up play dates and call them troop meetings and outings. The boys are having fun because they are entertained and required to take on little responsibility. LH

Again I say that without the background info we are talking about personal images and not actual circumstances. If this is a small troop say 20 boys and there are 2 patrols a suspension has just put the entire troop program on hold for a month and possibly ended the troop if these boys dont repent as asked. Once you suspend them you cant back down when they return or your credibility is shot. Have the adults actual trained the youth leadership in how to effectively do their jobs? Seems to me they have not, the SPL does not seem to have been in control in the first place. Did the previous SPL have the same problem? If he did then the adult leadership needs to regroup before laying this at the feet of the SPL/ASPL/PLC. Reportedly this conduct is present at every meeting and outing. Having allowed this to persist going straight to suspension would IMO demonstrate an inability on the part of the adults to teach leadership. LH

No, I believe the modern day Bible is a compilation created by the hand of man under the direction of Constantine. Created in 325 it sought to create a unified image of Jesus. This was accomplished by eliminating all references that did not conform to the beliefs of Alexander of Alexandria and his followers. While the "Old Testament" changed very little it still was not left as it is found in Jewish scripture. Do I believe living according to the "teachings of Jesus" as they are related in the Bible is a positive thing? Yes LH

Even though you will get a lot of answers it is really impossible to give advice without much more back round information. The fact that; these are not new scouts, they came from Cub Scouts and there fore are not new to the concepts of Scouting; that you use the plural in speaking of argumentS, but there have been timeS, especially since all activitieS come to a halt as these boys square off against each other, makes me wonder. How long has this troop been in existence? Has the SPL had the benefit of learning from the example presented by former SPLs? What level of training for the job has the SPL had? Is this a boy led troop or an adult led troop? Though your son is not a part of either faction he his a part of his patrol, how many others in either patrol are not parts of these factions? What experience and training does the SM, ASMs have? Hard to say what to do until we know what our options are within this unit. LH

Well Lisabob let me see if I can paint you my picture and see if it resembles yours; DOCUMENTART TYPE NARATION: (Walt Disneys voice) Ah the Man Scout. This species is often found lurking in and around Boy Scout troops. Hard to distinguish at times and very adept at disguising itself, the Man Scout can hijack a program with lightning speed. Lets take a closer look; The Man Scout was not necessarily a Boy Scout in its youth though some were and many think they were. The Man Scout sees the scouting program as his chance to marvel the young with his leadership and training. Man Scouts generally surround themselves with other Man Scouts and rule over the youth group called a troop. The Man Scout knows that the scouting program can not really be left in the hands of children. The Man Scout plans the yearly program, some times a week at a time. It plans all the activities and outings. Where it may seem to involve the youth it always reserves approval rights over menu, patrol formation (smaller youth groups with in the troop) and figure head youth leaders. Man Scouts are easiest to spot when usurping youth leadership roles or interrupting youth leaders often in mid sentence during troop gatherings. Man Scouts often take it upon themselves to handle the training of the youth but tend to do this only after appointing a youth to do the training and then interrupting them. They are a long winded species when in the presence of young males but usually stray from the initial point and concentrate on their own past, retelling story after story. Man Scouts tend to hold that only adults are wise enough to tell when a youth should be elevated within the troop. This is called advancement and is presided over by adults often only one or two adults within the group. Man Scouts as a group usually defend their territory by pointing out how incapable of leadership the youth tend to be. Man Scouts love to camp and if not for these little kids running around could be having the greatest of times. To this end Man Scouts also engage in group activities with other Man Scouts though actual Boy Scout Adult Leaders are normally present at these gatherings. Man Scouts love to teach other Man Scouts and try to imitate Boy Scout Leaders when at these gatherings. They learn the calls very quickly and can be heard saying boy led, patrol method, PLC, JLT and a newer call NYTL though the actual group actions these calls refer to are not usually found in a Man Scouts home troop. They attend gathering after gathering called Training or Training Sessions and are very resilient in that these gatherings have little affect on them except when the gathering results in added plumage for a Man Scouts chest or neck wear. These symbols of attendance are used by the Man Scout to justify his presence at a gathering and explain why others should take his lead or heed his advice. Interactions among the troops led by Man Scouts can be very different. Some are very much regimented and often resemble a paramilitary group, while others exhibit no apparent structure at all. They are identified by the fact that youth have little control or power within the group. Activities tend to be repetitive and these groups can often be found in the same places on a yearly cycle. When Man Scouts allow their home troops to associate with other troops they are usually careful to camp close to troops being run by other Man Scouts and seldom welcome Boy Scout Adult Leaders to study the Man Scout troop in the outdoors. LH

I think ignoring the minuses and only relating the pluses is a disservice to the scouts and parents. Full disclosure. I would also have to chose #2 if these were my only options. I can chose not to attend the paintball outings but can't chose not to have my scouts bullied or hazed. Second factor is that "Troop #1 is adult led, with the adults fairly active in the district and council." If being fairly active in District and Council means the adults themselves are active at these levels then they fall under what I call "Man Scouts" a species to be avoided at all costs. LH

Couldn't even make it past the next post. LH

Yes Ed but the MB requirement was changed in 2005 and the new wording is such that the boy is now supposed to be "finding" a "charitable organization", researching this organization, inquiring about the avenues for youth participation, and finally volunteering 8 hours of service. As described in the other posts the picking up of trash, school projects, and troop projects did not meat these requirements. Should a boy satisfy 7a, 7b, and the first part of 7c, then include his entire troop in the donation of service, as a MBC I would accept that. As SM I would also describe the "project" as Scout X's Citizenship in the Community project not a troop project. Same as would apply to an "Eagle project" as apposed to a "troop service project". LH

While I agree with Lisabob's argument, which is why I put a smiley face in my last post to indicate sarcasm, I can't help but wonder. If I allow one public building to display a manger and another a menorah but keep a third absent of all religious symbols am I still discriminating? I think the problem lies with the connotation of "discrimination". Affirmative action is discriminatory. The fact that it is accepted as a means of correcting past discrimination is irrelevant. Two discriminatory acts do not equal one non discriminatory act. The difference is that affirmative action is accepted as having positive results. Just because the "government" supports prostate cancer research does not mean that funding breast cancer research isn't discriminatory. Separate but equal was determined not to be. As a society and a nation we discriminate, it's natural in many cases such as medical research it is absolutely necessary to achieve the objective. Just try to continue this thread, discussing the merits or lack there of in the UoP study without using the word discrimination in any of it's forms. See how long the thread lasts. LH

Kudu, where did you see this new prototype? Got pictures? LH

I've been following this thread and wonder if some are confusing the service requirements for rank with the service requirement for Citizenship in the Community. While the things mentioned, picking up trash, school service hours, troop projects, are fine for rank advancement I would not accept them for Citizenship in the Community. Using a troop project or church function or school arranged service would negate 7c. IMO. The merit badge requirements intent IMO is to stimulate the boy to seek out service opportunities on his own and possibly in an unexplored area. LH

How about those of us in the pushing 60 crowd? Can't get into the Vitamin study or the Influenza research, not being black that makes me 0 for 3. Sure looks like discrimination to me LH

If I wait for these to "wear out" I'll never buy a "new" uniform. I still wear the one I bought in 89 when I came back. The "74" model I wore when I left would still be useable if it hadn't shrunk so much hanging in the closet. Actually it will depend on what the new ones look like. LH

Check out what the National Commander of the Salvation Army is paid. The number will be different depending on where you look and Salvation Army isn't free with the information. However no matter where you look you'll find that the National Commander of a 2 billion dollar organization makes less that $90,000 and thats with benefits and the cost of the house that is provided. The house is Salvation Army property and does not belong to the National Commander. Not all charitable organizations are run by people in it for the money. LH

The form from Chicago contains this; MANDATORY QUALIFICATIONS:  Candidates for the award shall be registered volunteer Scouters within the council territory.  Candidates must be at least 21 years of age.  Candidates must have rendered exceptional service to youth. DESIRABLE QUALIFICATIONS:  Ten years of cumulative service to youth.  Service to youth both within and outside of Scouting.  Service regarded as outstanding or distinctive beyond the expectation of normal duty.  Value of youth service proven by time and experience.  Record of community service and involvement. LH

Well Beavah if I was defining "scouts" I'd have to say 10,000. The way National defines "youth served" they come up with around 45,000. Just one of the many "burrs" traditional unit scouters have to deal with down here. LH

I stand corrected. After several phone calls I find the change was that professional scouters can nominate candidates, which is why only 1 of the 8 recipients for 2006 was a unit level scouter. A professional was over heard to say that "I'm going to see that all my people get the beaver". LH

Seems the Silver Beaver is now available to Professional Scouters and the requirement for "service to youth outside the Scouting Program" seems also to have either changed or is being overlooked in my council. Where the SB was a recognition for service to youth it now seems to be a recognition of service to the Council, read professional staff. IMO. LH

The SE of Chicago Area Council gets $224,776 plus a benefits package of $11,202 and submitted $469 in expenses for 2006. Puts him at $236,447. LH

OneHour mentioned it first, BSA uses nails not axles. If there is an axle running across the bottom of the car it is not BSA issue. If the nail itself is suspected of being nickel plate that's a different matter. Short of using chemicals on the head of the nail, asking questions is probably your only resource. LongHaul

If as a leader you are not interested in recognition why should your scouts? As long as I can pitch a tent and tie a knot or cook a meal why do I need to jump through all the hoops for "advancement" recognition? Setting the example has many facets. LongHaul