llwyn

You kidding? I think the Y would be the BEST place to charter a troop - as long as it had a pool, anyway.

Eagle732 - watch out! He's gonna... SPLAT! Oooohh, too bad there ol' buddy - wanna borrow my neckerchief?

All politics is local: We have a large LDS scouting influence around here and even hold District Roundtable at the Stake. Their troops, however, are small and most adults are told to "volunteer" by their bishop. If cash buys access to the highest reaches of BSA planning & policy, when the cash fades then so should the influence. Some of my favorite Scouters are LDS, but the LDS Church's cult status is not far different than Scientology - what would a Unit Commissioner do if a Scientology Church wanted to start a Cub Scout Pack?

GO TO NOAC!!

Sounds like a good time for all. I think the 3 year shift is to land NOAC 2015 on the 100th Anniversary

What was the question?

aaaarrrrrgh! =8-) sigh, I suppose you'll be an effective chairperson as well... I was only thinkin' of the boys, sniff, sob ... Good luck, Bubba

Bubba: You sir, are gonna be a GREAT commissioner! "This talk of religion is all fine and well but the point that needs to be discussed ..." Whew, thanks Jake, for pulling us back. Rooster: "If so, you have plenty of company. Many self-professed Christians like to believe this. It keeps them off their knees and enables them to do as they please without guilt or shame." Man, I wish I had said that ... so simple. llwyn

Dear tjhammer, Christians on this site, and even in this thread have been called hypocrites, intolerant, holier than thou [implied] and more. I have responded hastily, I know, but it is the nature of the media - neh? I mistakenly assumed that you had heard the allegory of the beggar and his bread. I am not holier than you are. I am a decrepit beggar on the street - broke & lost & hungry. A Man gives me bread which saves my life. I meet you and you are the same as me except I have bread. I tell you where to find this Man so you may be given bread as well. I am certain that I have fallen further than you and am, in fact, the very chief of sinners - that's how I know that the bread can save your life, because it saved mine and I was worse off than you. TJ, I don't just question your ability to become a Christian, I deny it. And mine. And anyone's. It's a gift we are given by the Grace of God. *I do think that it is man's evolving interpretation of God's word. But I do not believe it is... *...for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God. *I don't KNOW anything. I BELIEVE many things, though. I even have FAITH in some things that my BELIEF is sometimes shaky.... You think, but you do not believe; you reason, but you do not know; you don't know, but you believe, or if that's a little shaky, you have faith... We have here, man's evolving interpretation of God's Word and man's mind being used to "reason" man's spirituality and relationship to God. Your religion is not Christian if it is not Christ centered. My contention is that you write a good post, at first glance, but that you are not reasoning at all. On the contrary, you are being irrational and the few propositions that you have managed to put together appear to be invalid. I'm not sure. So I ask. I am NOT attacking you [ad hominem or otherwise]. Here's my question again, stated a little differently: What do you consider to be TRUTH? How can you BELIEVE something that you don't KNOW to be TRUTH? Is TRUTH for me different from TRUTH for you? If so, and they contradict each other, then ONE OR THE OTHER IS FALSE. Right? I hope that was a little better, I am truly yours, in Scouting, llwyn

tjhammer, As soon as I hit the submit button, I asked forgiveness from my LORD for being so obtuse and in your face. I apologize to you for any offense taken from my post. llwyn

Hello friends, I have just returned from Scout Camp and so have been trying to catch up on my reading of this thread... TJ: Frankly, as I have said before, I don't believe the Bible is the literal word of God. If I were you and actually believed that the Bible was divine, I would have real difficulty also saying "well what does this passage really mean, as it would seem like placing words in God's mouth. llwyn: Frankly, I don't know how you can say you are a Christian [i think that was you]. In any case would you explain the above? I don't understand your point. Also, what IS your epistemology? How do you KNOW anything? That might help me understand what you are saying. TJ: I believe that God made man with minds -- spiritual minds -- for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God. llwyn: You believe that? It is false, of course, but also irrational [w/o reason]. Why do you believe that? How do you KNOW? Brother, you were given a mind to love the LORD your God with. TJ: As I said once before, I'm more of a "resurrection" Christian, than a "crucifixion" Christian. I believe that Jesus told us to go out and preach the Gospel -- Good News -- rather than tell the rest of the world that it's wrong. I don't see (either in practice or in the lessons of Christ) inherent evil in homosexuality. llwyn: And, as I have said before, I don't think you are ANY kind of Christian. I hope you have not begun to go out and preach the Gospel yet, ol' buddy, because you certainly would lead people astray. The Gospel is good news to sinners who respond, that much is true, but it will be "bad news" to those who don't - Hell ain't a pretty picture. And as for what you "see" or don't "see", that would be, uh, like, zero. You are deaf and blind - or, more accurately, you are dead. Dead in your sins and trespasses. Moreover, without that the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ renews your heart, quickens you [regenerates you] you will never "see" anything like the Truth. The Truth, TJ, is the very Jesus Christ whose name you blaspheme by taking it unto your self [calling yourself Christian] without giving Glory, Honor, Obedience, and Lordship to the King of the universe. You want the Gospel? I don't think you do, yet, but when you are ready, e-mail me direct and I will share this bread with you with prayer and thanksgiving. In fact, brother, the prayers are already begun.

BubbaBear, I'm sure you're STILL a good ol' bear! I don't know how the spy thing came about. When we make a unit visit we are supposed to make an appointment, come as a friend (#'s 3,4,5,6), and after we get home, write up a visitation report. This report is supposed to help us determine the general "health" of the unit by documenting certain observations such as: number of adults; kids in uniform; adults in uniform; program being delivered; etc., etc. Most units are doing OK and there is rarely any reason to be blunt. Actually the biggest task for a healthy unit is to help them complete their re-charter and that's only once a year. Some units are in big trouble. Here is where you "earn your pay". You bring all of your experience and training to bear [sic] and help them resolve their problems and get back on the trail to success. Bubba, this is a HUGE payday. To see the faces of boys as they begin to experience good program is worth all the trouble it may seem to be while you are working things out. You go, BubbaBear. Become a Unit Commissioner. Hang around with the kids a little. Toss a few patches around. Buy the Scoutmaster a cup of coffee some time. Do it!!! A little cub scout once approached our district commissioner at day camp and told him, "Mr. Jones is MY commissioner!" I tell ya Bubba, that old DC almost teared up. 'Course I didn't when I heard about it [much]. Call him tonight and tell him you'll do it. You will never regret it. Besides, the Boy Scouts need you. Yours in Scouting, llwyn

You know, friends, this thread is getting a little thin and If all we can do is make odd verbiage, why not change the subject? Before I go find more fruitful discussions, I have to say that littlebillie's "anecdote" sounds made up. Untrue. Patrols don't have Pack leaders and I'm 52, also from Arizona, and never heard of such a thing. So even if it is true [which I doubt] it certainly IS unique, and a stain on anybody's badge?- certainly not. Most of all little brother billie, it is irrelevant. I mean, what is your point? Why is it that the Christians on this list are usually the ones who argue their positions so rationally and yet are subjected to the kind of sugary contempt that OGE lavishes on Rooster7? Sorry, rooster it's certainly not my place to defend someone who does such an admirable job of it themselves. Anyway, can we go to bed tonight repeating #'s 3,4,5,&6? Please? "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ..... LLWYN

Wait a minute. I do read what you write and what you are writing, I believe, is confusing. Are Merlyn and Old Grey Eagle [OGE] saying that it is illegal for the school to charter a pack? Is that so? What state, what case law, what court has held this to be the law of the land. Please tell me what you mean and back it up with some facts so that we can check it out and then come back and apologize for not believing you. Another question, inferred from the first is, who does hold the charter? The PTA? First you talk about the fairness of it all, in a case where the unit IS chartered to a public school ... Merlyn: "Let's say a kid wants to join a cub scout unit chartered by his public school; he knows that his public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, so he assumes the 'god' part is optional. When he makes the promise to join (along with 5 other kids), he omits the god part, and nobody notices. Sound possible?" Then you go on about how all this is ILLEGAL... Merlyn: "It's the difference between a whites-only organization meeting in school (legal), vs. a whites-only organization run by a public school (illegal)." Or whether or not you CAN charter... OGE: "The issue is whether or not good ol' George Washington Elementary school can charter a scouting unit." So what are we talking about? NJCubScouter [May 2nd @ 9:19:19 AM]: "Should membership in the Boy Scouts (youth and adult) be limited to those who believe the Bible (meaning both the Old and New Testaments of the Christian Bible) is infallible?" To which everyone replied no, eg... Rooster7 [may 2nd 11:14:04]: "No, belief in the Bible is not required. A Scout is free to believe in whatever faith he so desires. I don't think anyone in this forum ever suggested otherwise." And I think it finally fell into this crazy discussion about atheists. Let me be plain, my scouting friends, it's about "duty to God", and "A Scout is Reverent." An atheist recognizes neither proposition as valid. llwyn

Dear NJCubScouter, NJ sez: >It's not that there aren't people around to >help when requested, it's just that the >prescribed structure is not being followed. And >the reason is clear -- 1 UC for every 3 units >would mean that my district would have 21 UC's. >The volunteers just aren't there to fill >anywhere near that number of positions. I know! Do the math! You are so right: "the volunteers just aren't there." Listen friends, what will you do when your boy grows up? You've been trained [you have been trained, right?]; you've got experience [prob'ly in cubs and scouts both]; and, if you are like most of us, you LOVE the Scouting Movement and want to see it grow and continue forever! You want to help other people at ALL times! Friends in Scouting: That's what a Commissioner is!! C'mon up! Get a mug of coffee and sign on the dotted line!!! I used to be a bobwhite. 23 years in the Movement (just a pup) 8 years a unit commissioner (what took me so long?) llwyn

Scomman sez: >Commissioner? whats that I have been involved >in the same troop for 10 years and have yet to >meet one. He's the one with the permanently crooked index finger from holding a coffee mug his whole life. ;o) He's the one wearing the red shirt-jac over by the dying fire, telling all who'll listen what it was like in the old days! Hah! =8-} God bless you too, Scomman, O how I wish it weren't so ... Hang in there brother, and don't be afraid to raise a stink at the next district committee meeting or roundtable. Yer supposed to know this guy. He's s'pozed to be yer friend. In fact, I'm required to do an onsite unit visitation once a month and I've got three units [i finally talked an old buddy to take the next town over so I didn't have to watch those three units - I was humped up for a while there]. YiS, llwyn

Merlyn, Thanks for your patience - I was really tired last night. You said to read your post again and I did and I noticed that you said it differently the second time. First... >Let's say a kid wants to join a cub scout unit chartered by his public school; he knows that his public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, so he assumes the 'god' part is optional. When he makes the promise to join (along with 5 other kids), he omits the god part, and nobody notices. Sound possible? Then... >Nope; read it again. A scout troop chartered by a public school can't exclude atheists, and (in this case), the kid thought that the 'god' part was optional, just as it's optional in the pledge of allegiance. Is it OK to answer the second one, assuming it's what you would have said before? Let me try ... It is not true that a cub pack chartered by a public school cannot exclude atheists {although it is true that the public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, as you said in your first post}. When any institution charters a pack, they must agree to the declaration of religious principle. If they choose not to expend any resources defending that broad and [almost] encompassing statement, they should not charter a unit. As of our discussion, however, while it is not legal to discriminate in the classroom, it is legal to discriminate in the pack, after school. IMHO, that won't last long. I think that the days of cub scouts meeting at a school are fading. I think that's what happened to Exploring. Exploring is over with Learning for Life because Police Posts, etc. don't have to fret because they don't have to disallow atheists (or gays for that matter). Schools probably will just not charter because they don't want the hassle. In fact, the atheists may never actually have to win that fight in court because the schools will just dwindle to nothing as chartering institutions. Kinda sad. As for the Council, no I don't "consider it dishonest for a BSA council to charter a cub scout troop to a public school?" But that's because I take issue with your proposition that because schools can't discriminate in school, they necessarily can't discriminate in scouts. They can, and the Council knows they can, and if they are willing to subscribe to the declaration of religious principles, they should. What would be dishonest Merlyn, would be a pack subscribing to the religious angle and then ignoring it or not even warning the poor little atheist kid [who may not be so devious as I have accused him of being - he is after all, just a kid]. A Scout is Trustworthy [#1] and A Scout is Reverant [#2]. And a Scout is everything in between - that is the Law. I am a member of a conservative protestant denomination and I attend a small church that is just getting started. We worship on Sunday in the cafeteria of an elementary school. There is nothing illegal being done, but I'm sure that my pastor would not serve communion to a buddhist [or an atheist for that matter]. Of course the school does have a legal obligation to prevent my pastor from preaching on Monday to a school full of kids! YiS, llwyn

Merlyn, Does it sound possible? Yes, and even probable - it's what I predicted: the little atheist kid lied [in this case, as you say, by ommission]. Pretty sophisticated little shaver, though, wouldn't you agree? As for the Council, what is your question? What do you mean by "what about ...?" I must be too sleepy, sorry. Must sleep ... Can't ... seem .. to understand ... )

NJCubScouter: If we have a Unit Commissioner, I sure don't know who it is. On the other hand, when our unit has asked for advice, we get it (usually from the DE.) llwyn: What I find ironic in all of this, NJ, is that the District Commissioner serves at the pleasure of the DE - he is appointed. While it's good that he can give you advice when you ask, it's bad that the guy he appointed to provide commissioner service isn't doing his job. You're doing a good job out there. So's your Exec. You both deserve quality commissioner service - ask him next time you see him. And God bless your efforts. YiS, llwyn

Dear Friends, On another post I brought up the use of commissioner service to resolve sticky issues within the unit. It has occurred to me that not many people mentioned this resource because not many know or even see their commissioner. Frankly, I suspect that many units don't actually have a unit commissioner. The national standard was one unit commissioner [uC] to oversee the health and well-being of three units. For every five unit commissioners there should be one assistant district commissioner [ADC]. So: one ADC = 15 units. My question: Is this how it is in your districts? If so, how do you achieve these excellant ratios? If not, what are you doing about it? I have been a unit commissioner for 8 years and have never seen these numbers. YiS, llwyn

One thing that we have left out of the mix is the commissioner. Bob White's post was excellant, and I suspect he may have been a commissioner or still is. [?] We should always involve our unit commissioners in resolving difficult situations. They are trained to handle it and that's why they get the big bucks. sst3rd sez ... The Pack or Troop Committee meets WITH the COR (Chartered Organization Representative). If the decision is made by said Committee AND the COR understands and agrees with this decision, the COR, ONLY, has the authority to release an adult leader volunteer. llwyn: Can you tell me where this is written? I was sure that the committee had more authority here. Thanks all, llwyn

As has already been said, the boy earned that money in a troop setting with his fellow scouts. It was also said that the money belongs to the troop. Close, but I'm of the notion that the troop money belongs to the chartering institution. So does the gear, the flag, the records - everything. Sorry about your son, ma'am, but my suggestion is for you and your son to strike your tents and graciously hike it down to the other troop. The money was never his to take, only to use within the context of being a member of the troop. I suppose we should always be explicit in our by-laws in these matters but I think it is wrong to allow boys to transfer with their money. Why do most others think it is wrong not to allow it - with or without by-laws it is still contrary to the ownership of the troop and all its stuff by the chartering institution. How'd I get way over here? llwyn

Merlyn, You're right, of course, it does sound like I'm just defaming atheists. I am sorry if I have offended. Are you an atheist? Can you explain this? little billie said: "they've just really opened up what can be meant by God, god, or spirituality" llwyn: I think that if an atheist makes a declarative statement regarding "God, god, or spirituality", it must be either a denial of these things or it must be a lie lb: "- as well as leaving it up to the conscience of the individual to decide if they want to say that they meet the requirement" llwyn: I think that to "say that they meet the requirement" when really they don't is a lie. If they do "meet the requirement", they would say so, but then they couldn't be atheists. Could they Merlyn? lb: "(Actually, there's an avenue for abuse here that may be seen as an unwitting temptation to the atheist child to lie, but that's another issue)" llwyn: I ask who is the unwitting party here? The tempter or the tempted? I think neither. If an institution has a clear requirement to affirm their stated declaration of religious priciples, it would seem contradictory to those priciples if said institution were to tempt someone to lie - wittingly or no. Furthermore, any atheist kid that lies in order to join said institution, does so wittingly. Not to put to fine a point on it Merlyn and billie, but atheists are telling a big fat lie here. Finally, Merlyn, your defaming straw man fails because those little jews and catholics [and protestants, too] have something in common that our little lying atheist lacks: a God that commands them each [and their parents] to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. He also commands them not to lie. Atheists defame themselves. They lie when they say there is no God and they know they are lying. Me defame them? Yup. YiS, llwyn

Aeggman, We do achieve Quality Lodge status. If what you say is true regarding the amount of $1000 to FOS, then we must have given that money to FOS. I thought you were asking how we raise money. There are many things in the boys' budget that we don't "raise money" for but must be paid. We sent $500 to the families of police and firemen in NYC - that money came out of the Lodge and only after the fact did the boys design and sell a patch to raise money for the gift. YiS, llwyn

Aeggman, We don't raise money for FOS or Capital Campaign. What we do raise money for, on the lodge level, is Camperships, Camperships, Camperships. We do this through dues and the sale of patches - lodge flaps, jacket patches, and specialty patches. We go to NOAC - there's a special patch. We go to Jamboree - there's a special patch. Been an Eangomat? - there's a special patch. We also have a great Trading Post that goes to all Lodge and Section events - the money goes to Camperships. My chapter spends its money on outfits - ceremonial and dance. We collect dues [50 cents a month] and produced a large jacket patch. When all of those are gone, we'll probably produce another. I really like sst3rd's idea of having a chapter Trading Post at the camporees. YiS, llwyn