llwyn

You kidding? I think the Y would be the BEST place to charter a troop - as long as it had a pool, anyway.

Eagle732 - watch out! He's gonna... SPLAT! Oooohh, too bad there ol' buddy - wanna borrow my neckerchief?

All politics is local: We have a large LDS scouting influence around here and even hold District Roundtable at the Stake. Their troops, however, are small and most adults are told to "volunteer" by their bishop. If cash buys access to the highest reaches of BSA planning & policy, when the cash fades then so should the influence. Some of my favorite Scouters are LDS, but the LDS Church's cult status is not far different than Scientology - what would a Unit Commissioner do if a Scientology Church wanted to start a Cub Scout Pack?

GO TO NOAC!!

Sounds like a good time for all. I think the 3 year shift is to land NOAC 2015 on the 100th Anniversary

What was the question?

aaaarrrrrgh! =8-) sigh, I suppose you'll be an effective chairperson as well... I was only thinkin' of the boys, sniff, sob ... Good luck, Bubba

Bubba: You sir, are gonna be a GREAT commissioner! "This talk of religion is all fine and well but the point that needs to be discussed ..." Whew, thanks Jake, for pulling us back. Rooster: "If so, you have plenty of company. Many self-professed Christians like to believe this. It keeps them off their knees and enables them to do as they please without guilt or shame." Man, I wish I had said that ... so simple. llwyn

Dear tjhammer, Christians on this site, and even in this thread have been called hypocrites, intolerant, holier than thou [implied] and more. I have responded hastily, I know, but it is the nature of the media - neh? I mistakenly assumed that you had heard the allegory of the beggar and his bread. I am not holier than you are. I am a decrepit beggar on the street - broke & lost & hungry. A Man gives me bread which saves my life. I meet you and you are the same as me except I have bread. I tell you where to find this Man so you may be given bread as well. I am certain that I have fallen further than you and am, in fact, the very chief of sinners - that's how I know that the bread can save your life, because it saved mine and I was worse off than you. TJ, I don't just question your ability to become a Christian, I deny it. And mine. And anyone's. It's a gift we are given by the Grace of God. *I do think that it is man's evolving interpretation of God's word. But I do not believe it is... *...for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God. *I don't KNOW anything. I BELIEVE many things, though. I even have FAITH in some things that my BELIEF is sometimes shaky.... You think, but you do not believe; you reason, but you do not know; you don't know, but you believe, or if that's a little shaky, you have faith... We have here, man's evolving interpretation of God's Word and man's mind being used to "reason" man's spirituality and relationship to God. Your religion is not Christian if it is not Christ centered. My contention is that you write a good post, at first glance, but that you are not reasoning at all. On the contrary, you are being irrational and the few propositions that you have managed to put together appear to be invalid. I'm not sure. So I ask. I am NOT attacking you [ad hominem or otherwise]. Here's my question again, stated a little differently: What do you consider to be TRUTH? How can you BELIEVE something that you don't KNOW to be TRUTH? Is TRUTH for me different from TRUTH for you? If so, and they contradict each other, then ONE OR THE OTHER IS FALSE. Right? I hope that was a little better, I am truly yours, in Scouting, llwyn

tjhammer, As soon as I hit the submit button, I asked forgiveness from my LORD for being so obtuse and in your face. I apologize to you for any offense taken from my post. llwyn

Hello friends, I have just returned from Scout Camp and so have been trying to catch up on my reading of this thread... TJ: Frankly, as I have said before, I don't believe the Bible is the literal word of God. If I were you and actually believed that the Bible was divine, I would have real difficulty also saying "well what does this passage really mean, as it would seem like placing words in God's mouth. llwyn: Frankly, I don't know how you can say you are a Christian [i think that was you]. In any case would you explain the above? I don't understand your point. Also, what IS your epistemology? How do you KNOW anything? That might help me understand what you are saying. TJ: I believe that God made man with minds -- spiritual minds -- for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God. llwyn: You believe that? It is false, of course, but also irrational [w/o reason]. Why do you believe that? How do you KNOW? Brother, you were given a mind to love the LORD your God with. TJ: As I said once before, I'm more of a "resurrection" Christian, than a "crucifixion" Christian. I believe that Jesus told us to go out and preach the Gospel -- Good News -- rather than tell the rest of the world that it's wrong. I don't see (either in practice or in the lessons of Christ) inherent evil in homosexuality. llwyn: And, as I have said before, I don't think you are ANY kind of Christian. I hope you have not begun to go out and preach the Gospel yet, ol' buddy, because you certainly would lead people astray. The Gospel is good news to sinners who respond, that much is true, but it will be "bad news" to those who don't - Hell ain't a pretty picture. And as for what you "see" or don't "see", that would be, uh, like, zero. You are deaf and blind - or, more accurately, you are dead. Dead in your sins and trespasses. Moreover, without that the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ renews your heart, quickens you [regenerates you] you will never "see" anything like the Truth. The Truth, TJ, is the very Jesus Christ whose name you blaspheme by taking it unto your self [calling yourself Christian] without giving Glory, Honor, Obedience, and Lordship to the King of the universe. You want the Gospel? I don't think you do, yet, but when you are ready, e-mail me direct and I will share this bread with you with prayer and thanksgiving. In fact, brother, the prayers are already begun.

BubbaBear, I'm sure you're STILL a good ol' bear! I don't know how the spy thing came about. When we make a unit visit we are supposed to make an appointment, come as a friend (#'s 3,4,5,6), and after we get home, write up a visitation report. This report is supposed to help us determine the general "health" of the unit by documenting certain observations such as: number of adults; kids in uniform; adults in uniform; program being delivered; etc., etc. Most units are doing OK and there is rarely any reason to be blunt. Actually the biggest task for a healthy unit is to help them complete their re-charter and that's only once a year. Some units are in big trouble. Here is where you "earn your pay". You bring all of your experience and training to bear [sic] and help them resolve their problems and get back on the trail to success. Bubba, this is a HUGE payday. To see the faces of boys as they begin to experience good program is worth all the trouble it may seem to be while you are working things out. You go, BubbaBear. Become a Unit Commissioner. Hang around with the kids a little. Toss a few patches around. Buy the Scoutmaster a cup of coffee some time. Do it!!! A little cub scout once approached our district commissioner at day camp and told him, "Mr. Jones is MY commissioner!" I tell ya Bubba, that old DC almost teared up. 'Course I didn't when I heard about it [much]. Call him tonight and tell him you'll do it. You will never regret it. Besides, the Boy Scouts need you. Yours in Scouting, llwyn

You know, friends, this thread is getting a little thin and If all we can do is make odd verbiage, why not change the subject? Before I go find more fruitful discussions, I have to say that littlebillie's "anecdote" sounds made up. Untrue. Patrols don't have Pack leaders and I'm 52, also from Arizona, and never heard of such a thing. So even if it is true [which I doubt] it certainly IS unique, and a stain on anybody's badge?- certainly not. Most of all little brother billie, it is irrelevant. I mean, what is your point? Why is it that the Christians on this list are usually the ones who argue their positions so rationally and yet are subjected to the kind of sugary contempt that OGE lavishes on Rooster7? Sorry, rooster it's certainly not my place to defend someone who does such an admirable job of it themselves. Anyway, can we go to bed tonight repeating #'s 3,4,5,&6? Please? "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." "I must be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind." ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ..... LLWYN

Wait a minute. I do read what you write and what you are writing, I believe, is confusing. Are Merlyn and Old Grey Eagle [OGE] saying that it is illegal for the school to charter a pack? Is that so? What state, what case law, what court has held this to be the law of the land. Please tell me what you mean and back it up with some facts so that we can check it out and then come back and apologize for not believing you. Another question, inferred from the first is, who does hold the charter? The PTA? First you talk about the fairness of it all, in a case where the unit IS chartered to a public school ... Merlyn: "Let's say a kid wants to join a cub scout unit chartered by his public school; he knows that his public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, so he assumes the 'god' part is optional. When he makes the promise to join (along with 5 other kids), he omits the god part, and nobody notices. Sound possible?" Then you go on about how all this is ILLEGAL... Merlyn: "It's the difference between a whites-only organization meeting in school (legal), vs. a whites-only organization run by a public school (illegal)." Or whether or not you CAN charter... OGE: "The issue is whether or not good ol' George Washington Elementary school can charter a scouting unit." So what are we talking about? NJCubScouter [May 2nd @ 9:19:19 AM]: "Should membership in the Boy Scouts (youth and adult) be limited to those who believe the Bible (meaning both the Old and New Testaments of the Christian Bible) is infallible?" To which everyone replied no, eg... Rooster7 [may 2nd 11:14:04]: "No, belief in the Bible is not required. A Scout is free to believe in whatever faith he so desires. I don't think anyone in this forum ever suggested otherwise." And I think it finally fell into this crazy discussion about atheists. Let me be plain, my scouting friends, it's about "duty to God", and "A Scout is Reverent." An atheist recognizes neither proposition as valid. llwyn

Dear NJCubScouter, NJ sez: >It's not that there aren't people around to >help when requested, it's just that the >prescribed structure is not being followed. And >the reason is clear -- 1 UC for every 3 units >would mean that my district would have 21 UC's. >The volunteers just aren't there to fill >anywhere near that number of positions. I know! Do the math! You are so right: "the volunteers just aren't there." Listen friends, what will you do when your boy grows up? You've been trained [you have been trained, right?]; you've got experience [prob'ly in cubs and scouts both]; and, if you are like most of us, you LOVE the Scouting Movement and want to see it grow and continue forever! You want to help other people at ALL times! Friends in Scouting: That's what a Commissioner is!! C'mon up! Get a mug of coffee and sign on the dotted line!!! I used to be a bobwhite. 23 years in the Movement (just a pup) 8 years a unit commissioner (what took me so long?) llwyn