Liz

This is a great discussion! My take on the MAGA hat and the Hope t-shirts is that neither one should ever be combined with a Scout uniform. That is at least against the spirit, if not the letter (maybe that too) of the uniform guidelines combined with the general guidelines that Uniformed Scouts should not participate in political/partisan activities. As long as it was not causing disruption in the unit, I would probably not say anything about either if the kids were wearing such things as part of a non-uniformed, non-public activity such as a backpacking trip. If it were causing disruption in the unit, I'd have a discussion with the PLC to come up with a solution (or if in cubs, address it in the parent committee). I would encourage my Scouts to participate in whatever political processes they felt strongly about... outside of uniform and without leveraging their status as Scouts in the process. As for the boy who took a knee... I don't see protesting racism as a partisan issue, but rather a civil one. I am not sure I have an opinion on whether it was "appropriate" or not given all the circumstances, but I wouldn't flat out call it inappropriate and definitely not disrespectful. Peaceful, civil protest - and I wouldn't even call this civil disobedience since no laws were broken - feel to me more patriotic and brave than disobedient. I personally have had issues with the flag and pledge of allegiance for quasi-religious and other reasons since long before Kaepernick took a knee at a NFL game. Within our own Scouting unit, our kids knew my reasons for not participating. At summer camp, I generally found the flag ceremony to always coincide with my need to visit the ladies' room. My issues are personal and faith-based, (Matthew 5:34) and were never intended to be a public protest or anything I wanted to have attention called to or attempt to recruit others to follow suit. I didn't even instruct my own offspring to follow my lead; I explained my reasons and let them choose for themselves. I haven't decided exactly what to do going forward as I take a more visible leadership position in Scouting than I've had in the past. It was one thing to sit in the back of the room as a random committee member and merit badge counselor, and another as an ASM or other prominent leadership role. I think it's something I'm going to have to discuss with the rest of the Troop Committee and see what we figure out.

I am reminded of a concept that's been going around Facebook for a few years: "Don't tell her she's bossy, tell her she has leadership skills." I found that some of my most problematic Scouts have also been some of the best PLs and SPLs in the troop. Problematic not just in terms of being bossy, but I'm talking about kids who were busy setting fires (not in safe fire pits or with things that should be burning at all) whenever it wasn't their turn to be in leadership. Some of the most pleasant and compliant and studious Scouts had the hardest time getting things to run smoothly without extensive adult intervention when it was their turn to be SPL (they all seemed to do at least a passable job of PL). I think I only ever had one Scout that was a constant behavior problem regardless of whether he was in leadership or not - and eventually the other kids just learned not to get sucked into his antics, and when to ignore him and when to alert an adult if it was causing a safety problem. For those kids who were a problem when they weren't in a position of leadership, it was a learning and growth opportunity (not all of them took it) to get a feel for when it's time to lead, and when it's time to follow. Ideally, all of us will eventually be capable of either role when necessary, even if we're better at one than the other. This particular child may need some very specific guidance in that area, but I suspect he's going to be OK with reminders of "Your place right now is to follow the directions of your SPL; at another time you'll get a chance at seeing how things go when you're in charge."

The Scout shop is mailing me some patches to sew over the missing letters. This seems like it's definitely the easiest solution and doesn't require replacing the whole shirt or sacrificing another perfectly good shirt for the fabric. I actually have a friend with an embroidery machine who would have made the patches for me if they were no longer available, but I'm glad they are available. Due to the placement of the new logo on the new style uniforms, I don't see replacing the old logo with the new one as feasible, unless there is some way to get all the red residue from the old letters off.

The online store has the new style short sleeve Ladies (XS-XL) and Women’s (1X-3X) available now in the Women’s section. The Girls’ section only has youth sizes. Long sleeve is still old style and I expect that’s until they run through the inventory.

Would that be through scoutstuff.org?

I actually bought these shirts off eBay knowing full well that they would have this problem... at a deep discount. It would not be honest and trustworthy for me to take it for exchange. The whole reason I own the shirt is because I was trying to be thrifty. I do have a couple of spare adult uniform shirts I could take the embroidered patch off of and sew onto these shirts. That was my original plan. I just hate to sacrifice perfectly good uniform shirts that someone else might want, if there's another good solution.

What's your favorite solution for this? I'd love to replace with the new BSA logo embroidered on the shirt or something, although I can also pull the embroidered patch off an unused uniform and sew that over. But that leaves me with an unused uniform that can't really be re-gifted to another Scout or Scouter, so it's not my favorite solution. Just looking for some ideas. I'm sure I'm not the only one with a couple of shirts that look like this. In case it matters, this is the shirt I'm planning to graduate my daughter to when she crosses over to Webelos in a few months.

Our district (maybe even our whole council) doesn't even bother with Popcorn sales. The district fundraiser consists of Camp Cards in the spring and chocolate and meat sticks in the Fall. My daughter sells the camp cards door to door and she loves it. Last year I didn't think she was ready developmentally for booth sales, but I think she's ready to try it this year. Veering a little off topic: For chocolate and meat sticks, this fall she put on her uniform, made some signs to tape to an old baby stroller frame, and we went downtown to sell snacks to all the Pokemon Go players on two "Community Days" which, if you're not familiar with PoGo, are in-game events that get tons of people out together playing Pokemon. The second time we had to scrounge around and ask for partial unsold boxes from other members of the Pack to get sufficient candy and meat to sell... and we sold out long before the event was over. I posted in a local Pokemon Go facebook group to let people know where we'd be and a picture so they'd know who to watch for (and so they'd bring cash). Several people told us they'd seen us on Facebook and had been watching for us.

I think that's an important point, FireStone. Arrows, especially, are a pretty much universal image. Most cultures throughout history have used some kind of arrow. There is a great deal of symbolism in the arrow, as well as a number of mythological references that can be pulled from that use that imagery.

This may actually work in your favor. Perhaps the CM will listen to the CC if concerns are brought to him in friendship. A few principles to consider applying in your approach: 1) There are no "bad kids." There are kids whose behavior is a reaction to some problem, whether that's environmental or biological or whatever. But kids' behavior is a reflection of how they are feeling. 2) This is a problem looking for a solution. Not a complaint. Approach this from the angle of "What can I/we do to help?" All the adults in the unit should be invested in helping every child succeed. Your experience with a child with special psychological needs may be valuable here. Maybe there is something you can do to provide the kids with the attention they are seeking during meetings, but in a positive way. 3) Moving packs is not a threat. It's just a potential reality. Be clear that your children are not thriving in this environment and that if this cannot be solved, you'll have to take them to another environment, whether that's another pack or out of Scouting all together (last resort IMO). Be careful to remind yourself that this isn't out of spite, and that will help this be communicated in the most effective way. I took my daughter out of a dysfunctional pack a few months ago. We joined a pack clear on the other side of town, which is far from ideal and absolutely does NOT work for our schedules and getting the kids to bed on time. So those of us who are on my side of town and are refugees from the dysfunctional pack get together to do den activities at a parent's house, and some (but not all) of us make the trek across town once a month or so for pack meetings and special events like the Pinewood Derby. It's not ideal, but it's better than what we had. I hope to have a better solution by the time my 4 year old joins Scouts, but we had an immediate need for a change and didn't have time to explore too many other options.

I haven't asked my two adult kids who were in OA during their Scouting years what they think, and never having been a member of the OA I'm not sure I'm entitled to an opinion, but I have one nonetheless. I admit I feel a little sad and nostalgic about removing the NA elements from the Cub Scout ceremonies. I really enjoyed them when each of my kids earned their AOLs (which by the way was separate from crossover which was done by the troops they were joining). But at the same time, I think it was time. The culture is changing, like it or not, and there's too much baggage with this. But I really don't like the new skits. And yes, they are skits. Our local OA has determined they hate it so much they will not be attending ANY cub scout ceremonies until/unless the rules have changed. I don't think they're insisting on NA-inspired ceremonies (I didn't ask) but they are asking for some freedom of creativity. And now that I've seen the skits, I can't blame them. What I'd love to say is that each group *performing the ceremonies* needs to use elements from their own cultures, or else generic/contemporary American ceremonies that don't point to anything in particular. Got a group of Arrowmen who are actually tribe members? Great, they can do a ceremony that is meaningful to their own tribe if they would like to, or something generic. A group of Arrowmen who take particular pride in their own African, Pacific Islander, or other heritages? Awesome. Build some ceremonies that are meaningful to their own roots, drawing on the traditions and/or mythologies they learn from their own parents and grandparents. Are your Arrowmen generic White European Americans? You know, there are lots of great legends and traditions out of Europe that could be drawn on, which could be very enlightening to research and create ceremonies around. For girl packs crossing over into female troops, something based off the legends of the Celtic goddess of horses would be amazing. Got a diverse group of Arrowmen? Create a ceremony where each Arrowman is representing his own culture, or go for something more contemporary and don't draw on historic cultures at all. In all cases, give the OA ceremonialists some freedom of creativity while establishing guidelines against cultural appropriation. In the meantime, we'll figure something out without the OA. And if ceremonialism is dropped from the OA entirely, well, change happens. Neither of my older kids were ever involved in ceremonial stuff. They were first for the service focus, and second for the camping. There's still a lot to be said for the OA without that one element. I'll be encouraging my daughter to aim towards OA or female equivalent if she's so inclined, with or without the ceremonial trappings.

I'm her DL so no concerns there. I've been doing Scouting a long time - this isn't my first rodeo - and with my son's troop years ago his DL used to regularly make slides and give them to the kids as gifts/prizes at various events. These have been some great suggestions! I'll go over them with her and see what she decides. I can't believe we just threw out a whole bunch of old charging cables that had worn out. In a variety of vibrant colors, too. *sigh* - I knew in my gut they had to be good for something and I just couldn't think of what...

You know, there's a module on my.scouting on uniforms and it has a section specifically on neckerchiefs. If I recall correctly from taking the module recently, pretty much it says all the different ways to wear the neckerchief (including collar folded in, if desired) are acceptable as long as everyone in the unit does it the same way.

My daughter has lost her Bear slide. Any ideas of homemade slides she could make to replace it? I don't want to buy her another one - we're getting pretty close to Webelos. She is pretty crafty. I welcome a variety of suggestions with a range of skill levels, but prefer something that doesn't involve power tools just because I'd like her to make it herself. Then again, if it's a great suggestion that involves power tools we can probably still make it happen. Surely mine isn't the only cub who has lost a slide by this point in the Scouting year.

The dad may have some other ideas too if he understands that a female leader is a requirement to allow her to meet with the other Bears. Perhaps he has a sister or other female family member who would be willing to do this. The leader doesn't have to have any particular qualities other than passing the background check, taking (and adhering to) YPT, and showing up. Anything she actually does to assist the den other than as a chaperone would just be icing on the cake here.

I don't have anywhere near the wisdom or experience of the people who have already replied on this thread (and I think you've had some GREAT advice) - but I do have a couple of thoughts. Give me a moment to tell you where we are and what we're doing, and then I have a few ideas for you as well. We have moved to a different Council entirely since my older kids were Scout age (my first two kids are adults now). So we started over entirely last year when my then 7 year old daughter joined a Wolf den. We signed up with what at the time was the only Family Pack in the area and it didn't work out due to major leadership conflicts mainly among the CC, the COR, and the CM. Earlier this Scouting year my daughter's entire den and the CM withdrew from the pack that we started with and convinced another small local Pack to open up a girl den for our (now Bear) girls; the boys in our pack just joined the existing den. The CM became ACM and that's where we are now. The now-ACM also has a daughter who is in Webelos. She's the only one in her girl den and I think there might be one or two in a boy den now that we've changed packs. I'm not sure exactly what they are doing with the Webelos program but her husband is the Boy Bear Den Leader and I'm the Girl Bear Den Leader and a Committee Member. What we are seeing is that there aren't any girl troops forming in our area of town other than the one we had major conflicts with in our former Pack. So even though neither of us has girls who are ready to join Scouts BSA yet, we are actively recruiting like-minded leadership and girls and are negotiating with a couple of possible COs to start a new girl troop. We are more than open to starting a tethered troop with a new CO, or join a CO that already has a boy troop, or start with just girls - but right now we have about half a dozen girls and a full committee ready to hit the ground running as soon as we have a CO. Personally, my goal in being involved at this level right now is to have a troop up and running with some experienced youth leaders already in place by the time my daughter crosses over in a couple of years. I also have a 4 year old daughter so I expect I'm going to have kids in Scouting for the next 14 years... maybe longer if they move on to Venturing like my oldest did when she (long story) aged out of Boy Scouts. So here's my thought for you - don't limit your discussions in your Pack to just "what troop should we be moving towards" but also "what can we as adult leaders do to create a successful program for our Bears to cross over into." Talk to the Troop's committee and point out that the SM really needs to be COR, remind them how important that job is, but also less critical that the COR attend all the camping trips and things, and see if you can nudge the current SM into the position he really ought to be holding and get new SMs in place for both boys and girls - possibly out of your active and enthusiastic Cub Scout leadership pool. See if you can recruit some more parents of Cub Scouts to step up and help pick up the slack in the Pack to free up some of your more experienced leadership to spend time with the Troops. Remind them that the goal of this is to create an exciting program for the kids to move into. Get them thinking forward. Oh, and make sure EVERYONE gets trained!! And if that doesn't work, either due to lack of volunteers or due to immovability on the part of the current Troop leadership, propose that you talk to other Troops in the area about a merger, and if that doesn't fly either, just take your family to a Troop where they are running a good program - and get involved there. If your COR at your current troop won't work to make a successful program now for the boys, don't expect them to do any better for the girls; better to get another organization with experience at running a *successful* Troop to charter one for your girls. Kids should never feel like Scouting is a drag. If your son is feeling that way, he needs to be in a better troop. You either create that for him where he is, or you move him to somewhere that it's already happening. Sorry that was so long!

What I was told today, which was a bit through the grapevine, was that the church was "not prepared" to take on additional liability coverage. My fear is that the insurance agent, in an effort to bring in more premiums, frightened the person who called into thinking a BSA unit is a huge liability requiring a large increase in insurance coverage. I've left a message to the person who actually spoke with the insurance representative, as she wasn't at church this morning to talk to directly. Hopefully she'll get back to me. Our pastor, who is not a decision maker in this matter but who has been part of the discussion all along, said she hadn't heard anything other than being aware that a conversation with the insurance company was going to take place.

I tried to explain it to them when we first met. And provided them information in writing. But I think the insurance person has a vested interest in selling them more insurance. And they are going to believe them more than they believe me. I will definitely reach out to my DE and try to put them in touch directly.

How many COs carry extra insurance for their chartered BSA units? I and some other Scouters have been trying to find a CO to charter a new Scouts BSA troop. We approached the church my family attends and got a favorable response but I just found out today that the church’s insurance company said they can’t do it without buying additional insurance to cover the Troop. I thought the insurance provided by BSA with the membership dues should be sufficient. Has anybody else run into this issue? How do you deal with it? What if the Troop used money raised by dues or fundraising to pay this extra expense?

Well, the requirements say they have to put a finish on one of their projects... and not all the kids did that with their raingutter regatta boats which they've already finished and moved on from. It's not a big deal for my daughter, who has also made a little catapult which she can apply a finish to, but most of the other kids are going to need to put some kind of finish on their bird houses to meet the requirements. Or maybe I can steer them to bird feeders instead.

What kind of finish do you prefer to provide for woodworking projects? And why? What has worked for you in the past for kids this age and what didn’t work so well? The kids have said they’d like to do bird houses or bird feeders. I was thinking pure tung oil but my husband thought a latex paint would be better.

I see what you mean. I think in our Pack we have an overwhelming majority of Christian leadership, even though among the youth membership there's a great deal of diversity. That makes me more likely to err on the side of leadership being careful to be non-sectarian in their approach and encouraging the boys and girls to express their own faith traditions and be respectful of each others'. This dynamic may be different in different groups.

I think that's entirely different when the Scouts are offering their own prayers. I would encourage them to do it in their own way. I was assuming this was talking about adult leaders facilitating a group prayer.

As a Christian, I completely agree with this. "In Your Name" or "In His Name" are common ways Christians end prayers and it means exactly the same thing as "In Jesus' Name." IMO, it is a Christian prayer ending. If anybody else ever uses it, I have never run across it. It is specifically a reference to part of the New Testament aka Christian Bible and as far as I know definitely doesn't fit with the non-sectarian aim of a group Scouting prayer. In our Pack we have Christians, Jews, and a "reverent agnostic" for lack of a better way to describe it. I would shy away from using phrases coined by any organized religion, including this one.

Found this shirt for sale with that patch included while browsing eBay today... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Boy-Scout-Long-Sleeve-Shirt-597-W-Badges-And-Patches/273521151499?hash=item3faf218e0b:g:SDkAAOSw7VtbxQlG:sc:USPSFirstClass!97405!US!-1