LittleCarl

I agree with you. I would imagine this was the thought of our forefathers as well and a consideration when the US Flag Code was drawn. We too have performed retirements by cutting the field of blue from the flag as well as removing the individual stripes. The ceremony includes an explanation of the process/procedure, the reason for the removal or disassembly and of course is done in a most respectful and solemn manner. I would say the main reason for us cutting a flag has to do with its size. There is also a safety consideration for the scouts performing the ceremony. Otherwise we retire a flag whole. This Troop takes flag retirement very seriously because 95% of the adult leadership is former or current Military. We all discuss every situation whether it is a retirement or a display to ensure we are respectful. The point is, we fought or are serving for the Flag and if we feel we are being respectful, then so be it. The last thing Adrianvs says, as long as your actions are respectful and understood to be respectful by those observing, then there shouldn't be a problem. There in lies the problem. Those observing disagree with us and consider what we are doing as disrespectful and questions the message we are sending to our young impressionable Scouts. They spout the US flag code as being law, and BSA policy violations. So what are we to do?

Thank you OWL62

I think you guys are missing the point here. We are not going to erect a pole for this Flag. We are not going to fly this Flag on a pole. An earlier thread made a good point. We may have every right to carry this flag horizontally to the ground. However, it may not be exactly what the US Flag Code says, we may be twisting words and what kind of message is that sending to our scouts and future scouts. I think to solve this and end my headache, it s time to retire this Flag.

Well, as I expected, this has set off a firestorm of debate. I do appreciate everyones input here. It certianly has been enlightning. This debate can go on and on. The Troop Committee last night decided to not carry the big flag in the parade. Instead each scout will carry a 3'x5' flag on a staff. We will continue to find the right way to display this flag. Thanks to all.

The attitude acco40 is exhibiting is exactly what we are up against. We did not go out and purchase this Flag. It was given to us. Do we have to carry it in the parade? No. We would like to. Yes. Can we? Thats what we are trying to find out. acco40 states it violates the US Flag Code. Violates? The US Flag Code is an advisory document. It provides guideline for how the Flag SHOULD be treated. It is not a law. If it were, then Kid Rock, the Chicago Bears, the US Navy, the soccer player, the hockey player, The track and field star and anyone who burns a flag in protest is in violation of the law. And this could not be. Because no matter how distasteful it may be to us, or anyone, they have a right. Its called the First Amendment. I take offense to the comment that we are super sizing. Most people have never been within 10 feet of a flag of this size. It is an impressive sight to behold. As impressive as what it stands for. Do we want to impress people? Hello... I think there should be more impressing going on in this country right about now.

You are correct. The Flag Code states should not be carried horizontal to the ground. It does not say will not be carried horizontal to the ground. Our role is not necessary at all. We do not have to participate, or we could do something else. Does BSA have policy stipulating display of the Flag? If so, I cannot imagine it would be any different than the US Flag Code. The reason I ask is because this group is the type to use violation of BSA policy to drum others and me out of Scouting if they could.

I am hoping for some good advice and hope to not set off a firestorm. I am the CC of my troop and my troop was given a VERY large flag. Last year we participated in the local Veterans Parade and decided to carry this flag through the parade. When the Parade Director caught wind of what we were going to do he moved us from last to the lead of the parade. This Flag measures 25 x 40. We carried the Flag through the parade horizontally (it was the only way), the field of blue leading. There was no banner identifying us in the lead. The flag was surrounded with scouts in full uniform and we marched accordingly. This is the problem. A former disgruntled parent, part of a group of disgruntled parents, complained to the Parade Director we were disrespectful to the flag. He was unaffected by the complaint and when he contacted me to let me know what happened he requested we participate next year, because he received more complements than complaints. He was very impressed as well as others. There is a local parade happening this weekend. We are planning on carrying the Flag again. The same group caught wind of what we are doing and are complaining again that what we are about to do is illegal, disrespectful, and against BSA policy. We were advised by the American Flag Foundation, The U.S. Code doesn't specifically address the issue of how to carry an extra-large flag. National Flag Foundation suggests that it can be appropriate to carry an extra-large flag horizontally as long as it is done respectfully. The U.S. Flag Code is an advisory document as well and it does not say you cannot carry the flag horizontally. It says it should not be carried horizontally. And as for BSA policy, I havent found one. I believe, providing we carry the flag in a respectful and honorable fashion we are just fine. By respectful and honorable I mean, full uniform, march in an orderly manner, do not allow it to touch the ground, etc. What does everyone else think?

mantuawarrior mentioned several ideas to become "blessings" to the CO. My wife mentioned this also as the Cubs did service only as an afterthought for the last several years and the Troop's service projects have been out in the community. Given that members of the Church broke into our designated "Scout Closet" and went through the equipment while we were at summer camp, I am not entirely optimistic that service projects will salve the wounds here.

Thank you for your responses and suggestions! Equipment and funds are only an issue for my troop/pack because the CR/CC/UC fear 'losing' it all. Actually all of this equipment was donated to us or purchased by the past and current SM. I doubt, if push came to shove, that the CO would actually want anything but the cash. My DE avoids controversy beyond "Boy Talks" (see BobWhite's many posts on the DE's job/responsibilities) and refers all tothe DC who refers it to my CR/CC/UC. I would be "running, not walking" already but there is a LOT of inertia even among the parents who understand what this program COULD be!

BobWhite is absolutely correct that the UC is broken. With due respect, however, the Commissioners can be as "good ol' boy" as the paid staff. As Overtrained observed the goal seems to be "bodies" or names on charters and not functional UCs. Example: My CR and my UC have been UC for no less than 5 different packs/troops. Two packs now exist on paper only and a third is now considered a "scoutreach unit." Their response? They come to my pack (closing on 40 active) and my troop (10 active) and complain about our paperwork and about the DE. What has the DC done? He admits the 'King Midas in reverse' effect these two have BUT, they are warm bodies and show up for all the award ceremonies! "They're nice people..." More training for the volunteers may help the movement but won't fix the UC. More UC training is futile if they're dead wood.

Back to the original question (even though it's been months)... The perception of the DE as "professional Scouter" is going to be colored by the perception of all the other paid staff at the Council: --our original "webmaster" was paid staff and blamed BSA National for all the errors on the council website- including incorrect dates for Council events! (Since being taken over by a volunteer most of the problems are gone.) --Camping coordinator oblivious to camps being supported with Council equipment. Also could not name any of the equipment he was directly responsible for distributing to the Districts. --annual poll by President of diminishing "cross section" (no SM have been polled in past two years) would convert Council camp into cafeteria and bunkhouse setup --telephones at Council actually answered by cashier in attached Scout Shop --common response to questions of paid staff is-literally-"It's not my job." --the Program, Membership, and Annual 'Kick-Off(S)' all devolved into, you guessed it, Popcorn sales pithces! The only suggestion any paid staff person could come up with for recruiting Scouts was 'visit schools' and 'sell popcorn.' My DE's qualifications seem to be irrelevant when even he can't get a straight answer to a simple question from Council. Our Districts and their volunteers run pretty much disconnected from Council since Council seems to not have a job to do.

This subject has been adressed previously but I can't find the thread. Short version: My unit's original CR WAS scouting in this County going all the way back to WWII. While he was alive our pack/troop had no problems with the CO. Since his death, the Scouts have become the scapegoat for all of the Church's problems. Any dirt or damage is laid at our feet-even if the troop is in a different atate at camp! Both pack and troop are now confined to a single room in the Church (different nights). We are allowed to only use HALF the lights in that room. The Church President has even "suggested" the Scouts start paying part of the electric bill since we do a fundraiser on their property. Our CR/Committe Chair and Unit Commissioner (husband and wife) attend the church and refuse to question the CO. To complicate matters the CR/CC/UC insists that all of our equipment/cash "belongs to the CO". (Note: only our trailer license mentions the CO, we shop under the Council's FEIN, the CO has NEVER provided any financial aid to pack/troop.) My CR has provided the regs that say if we FAIL to recharter we lose everything BUT, refuses to discuss or research TRANSFERING the charter. I feel the pack/troop have been long since abandoned by the CO and they are just nit picking us until we leave. I can get other Churches and/or several local groups to charter us AND follow the charter.