Lisabob

~rolls eyes~ Can I be part of a coalition I've never heard of, don't believe exists, and haven't chosen to join? Can you really be so arrogant as to believe you can read my mind and know without doubt what I do and don't think? Not my fault, if you don't understand or perhaps didn't read what I actually wrote about how both the BSA and AHG have every right, as private organizations, to have religious restrictions on membership and/or to have religious components to their programs. But just go on ahead with the labeling, I'm sure that's going to help you understand things better.

Let us be clear. Freedom of religion, as typically referred to in the US context, is about the 1st amendment. The 1st amendment prohibits GOVERNMENT from infringing upon religious freedoms in various ways (although there are some very broadly construed limits - no ritual sacrifice of babies, for example). A "problem" with the BSA (post-Dale in 2000) and with AHG is that these groups are private, religiously-based, organizations. While the BSA says it is open to pretty much all religions, it still officially has religious expectations of members. Thus, government institutions like public schools cannot sponsor BSA units (or AHG units). As private organizations, both the BSA and AHG have the right to set religious requirements on membership, and/or to have religious components of their programs. That doesn't mean, however, that the general public (us!) have to agree with or like the membership expectations of the two groups. And I think that's what some folks here are saying about partnerships between the BSA and AHG. Since BSA is much more inclusive in terms of its religious membership & program expectations than the AHG is, it seems ike it might be a poor fit for many BSA units to team up with an AHG unit. That's not the same as saying the BSA or AHG can't have their particular religious elements, though. In fact, I see nobody here arguing that either group's religious freedoms should be, or have been, curtailed.

My son transferred troops a couple years ago. At the time of transfer, his records were given a check and found to be missing several items (MBs needed for star - star earned a few years ago but MBs not in the council records). He had the signed blue cards from the allegedly missing MBs, got that fixed. 6 months ago they looked at his records again. A whole bunch of wrong dates. Got them fixed. 2-3 weeks before his 18th birthday as he's finishing up his Eagle app, looked at his records again. A whole bunch of "new" wrong dates. Got them fixed. Verifiable, signed handbooks and signed blue cards trump faulty council records just about every single time, as long as you have them on hand. Honestly, this is so common, even within the same council, that I can't imagine a cross-council transfer scout NOT having these problems. Just make sure he & dad (or whoever) understand that he should keep meticulous records because even though you're fixing this problem right now, it might very well pop up again some years down the road when he's trying to dot his i's and cross his t's on his Eagle app.

Sorry JB, I just can't do it. I ate at a CFA one time. Being from the frozen north, I had never even heard of it until I relocated to points south for a few years, and a friend from Georgia was mooning about how wonderful it was. So off we went, and she got her fix. I couldn't finish mine. Yuck. Never went back. Yes, Yes, I do understand that this constitutes sacrilige in some parts of the country!

Oh, I agree basement, AHG has no place in public schools. But neither does BSA, really (as the private, exclusionary club the BSA currently says it is). But if I recall correctly, the cub pack where Seattle wants to start up an AHG unit, is chartered through a Catholic Church/private Catholic school. So although I, too, don't care much for Seattle's approach, I'm of the opinion that the local option is the best fix here. In any event, it seems unlikely that the two groups could be too closely blended because they'll have different organizational requirements and needs. So I think it will be a self-limiting effort, in the end. Brew, you don't seem to understand my point. First, BSA is not a Judeo-Christian organization so I don't see what that has to do with much of anything. Second, the BSA invites criticism by holding contradictory positions. This is a shame, but nobody outside the BSA is doing it TO the BSA. BSA national policy makers are doing it to the entire organization, and as a member of that organization, I believe I have a right (maybe an obligation) to point this out. In this instance, unfortunately, the BSA simply reaps what it sows. The good news here is, the BSA can fix this by getting rid of their contradictory stances.

I understand about different schedules, too, since for three years my son's school schedule was different than everybody else in his troop. But on the very rare occasion where my son has had to arrive late or leave early from a campout or other troop function, I've always been prepared to drive him myself. My thinking is: if we're the ones who need schedule variations, then we're the ones who need to deal with the resulting transportation issues. So my advice: next time, if you know your son's transporation needs don't fit with the troop's schedule, just plan to drive him, yourself (or don't plan for him to go). Then you won't need to worry about situations like this one. And let your son's SM deal with the other aspects - sounds like he's on it. (unexpected Crew members showing up to a campout without prior notice, the Webelos 3 atmosphere, etc)

Since I'm not a member of the AHG, nor do I plan to be, I'm not particulary concerned with their policies. The thing about BSA that sparks outrage is that it makes certain claims about who and what the BSA is, that are contradicted by its current membership policies. So far as I can tell, AHG does not play this game so much. They are reasonably clear about what they believe and that they will try to inculcate those beliefs in their members. Those beliefs don't appear to be hidden from their members. And they don't seem to be seeking special treatment or breaks as a gov't-run entity or public accommodation. So, as a private, exclusionary, religiously-based club, the AHG have a right to their policies and membership standards. I don't care much for them, but they do have that right. Unfortunately, the BSA seems to be in a long decade of identity crisis. They used to have strong relationships with public/gov't entities like public schools as COs, but once the BSA asserted that they are a private club that discriminates on the basis of religion (no atheists/agnostics), they lost that quasi-public identity and many of the benefits that went with it. Now people whine about that loss. They seem to have a program that "all boys" can join, but not gay or atheist or agnostic boys. Or, a boy can be a member as a "youth" for up to 15 years (1st grade in Cubs through age 21 in Venturing) and then suddenly be ineligible on the day of their 21st birthday, as an adult who is also gay. Or, a leader can be hailed as a role model until and unless they get "outed" by daring to mention their life partner/spouse/sig. other to the wrong folks, yet sleep-around-Sam who cheats on his wife and gets divorced 8 times and fails to pay child support, all while running a grow op, is considered a potentially fine leader under national BSA policy, so long as he's hetero and a theist. Their Doctrine of Religious Principles is murky and appears to prohibit some actual religious groups from being members, yet the BSA also goes out of its way to allow and endorse those same groups being members. They hide their official policy banning gay adult (and youth?) members, making it hard for current and prospective members to know exactly what the BSA policy is. They hold secret committees, that may not even have existed, that allege to have "studied" these super-double-secret policies, but they won't share any details of who, how, when, or where that was done. They say they don't want to bring sex into scouting, yet apparently they said in the Dale briefs that a core teaching of the organization is that homosexual behavior is immoral, thus bringing sex into scouting - and yet I know no scouters who spend time actually teaching this specific doctrine to the boys in their units, and you couldn't find this teaching articulated in the literature the BSA provides, like the Scout handbooks and syllabi for scout leader training. Hypocrisy and identity crisis are really at the heart of what makes people outraged at the BSA. I don't care much for AHG and want no part of that organization, but at least AHG seems fairly clear about who and what they are.

Barry, sorry for the late follow-up but I've been (and will soon again be) without internet for a bit, and enjoying every moment of disconnection. Anyway: I said I thought many gay-rights supporters might also not be big CFA supporters in the first place. You asked why I thought that. Here's my thought process. In the study of social movements, there's a distinction between those movements that aim at fundamental survival/well-being and "pocket book" kinds of issues on one hand, and "new politics" issues about quality of life, equality, and other kinds of issues that aren't immediate in nature, on the other hand. "New politics" issues might include such things as environmentalism & "green" issues, gay rights, other group rights, vegan/vegetarianism, healthy foods, etc. And these tend to work as a constellation, ie, people who have gotten past the basic needs/security "old politics" issues and are focused on "new politics" issues tend to be involved or concerned with several overlapping causes, all of which might be "new politics" in nature. So - and here's the conjecture part - I posit that folks who are particularly active in supporting gay marriage and gay rights in general, are probably also people who don't eat a lot of nasty deep fried fatty mystery-meat fast foods, and hence, these people are unlikely to have a hankering for CFA. Consequently, they aren't going to "boycott" CFA (effectively, anyway) because they weren't going there in the first place.

My experience with the two ODD kids I've known is similar to what Annie describes. This is not "spoiled kid with ineffective parents," this is "something's up with that one." Actually pretty heartbreaking & exhausting stuff for their parents. Anyway, no, you can't let this one kid make scouting so unpleasant that the other kids/families want to leave, but of course parents shouldn't abandon their little challenge at den meetings, either. Have a heart to heart with parents & come to some agreement on how you (jointly) wish to handle behavioral outbursts, then just do it. No drama, no fuss. If parents can't handle that, then you can tell them your program isn't going to work for them, knowing you've done your best to help and accommodate, but that's really about all you can do.

I agree, everyone should be able to disagree without being hateful. Problem is, someone didn't do that. You may have missed it, as their posts were eventually deleted by a moderator. I do not, however, believe it is hateful to point out when someone in a position of power (nld has stated that he is a judge in NY) spews hate at others. That's the last I have to say on this topic.

First: I like the Dixie Chicks and I think Chik-fil-A is yucky. Second: I agree that boycotts in general aren't very effective, most of the time. To work, they require a very high level of discipline among would-be consumers. If the boycott is leaky, or if only those who never would have been consumers anyway participate, then the boycott will be ineffective. One of the problems with the Chik-fil-A boycott is that the people who are most likely to be concerned with gay rights issues, probably also aren't huge consumers of CFA to start with. First, because CFA is a mostly-southern enterprise without the same kind of loyal consumer base in other parts of the country. Seems to me that gay rights tends not to be as popular an issue in, say, Alabama or Oklahoma or Texas, as in other parts of the country. Second, and this is purely anecdotal on my part and you all can now go about proving me wrong, but I think a lot of folks who are activists in gay rights causes are also folks who would be unlikely to eat fast food anyway. So people who are offended by CFA's views weren't part of the base of CFA customers to start with - hence, them boycotting a company they never did business with in the first place isn't going to be highly effective. Yeah, from a social movement and community organizing perspective, this stuff really IS fascinating, I agree.

Hi Robert, Congrats on getting the new troop started. It might help to know a couple of other things. 1. How did you get the 7 boys who are current members of the new troop? 2. What sorts of things does the other troop in town do already, in terms of recruiting? (if there are "territory" issues, might be better to take different approaches) 3. How many cub packs are there in town/nearby? Does your CO charter a pack, too?

Thing is, nld, I don't know if I could believe that you'd be unbiased if I were to appear before you in court and you felt I might be gay. Not after you spewed all those offensive names - twice - about gay people. No different than how a racial minority might feel if they knew that you regularly used offensive racial epithets in reference to their ethnicity or race, even if you swore that you were not biased while in court. It is entirely possible for a person to agree and support current BSA policy without veering off into deeply insulting name calling of the sort you seem to think is acceptable.

Frankly, I am more concerned with the fact that nldscout is a judge or magistrate (not sure which, perhaps he'd like to enlighten us). I wonder if he feels that he provides impartial justice to those who appear in his courtroom and whose sexuality is uncertain in his eyes? Knowing the really unacceptable names he has chosen to call gay and lesbian people here on this forum, on more than one occasion in the last week or so, I am certain that if I were gay and had to appear before him in court, I'd be dubious about my chances of getting a fair trial. This is actually pretty sickening.

IMO, anything beyond fairly innocent hand holding is icky when in public/groups. Now in my son's crew, there is only one couple, so the other kids enforce this just fine. They also don't have that much respect for the one member of the couple so they don't give him much slack. And the parent of the girl in question is one of the advisors, and has explained to the boys in rather clear terms what he might be moved to do if he felt his daughter's reputation or um, you know, were in doubt as a result of any of their actions. Since the boys like him but are a little bit afraid of him (not without reason), this seems to have the desired effect! Seriously, I'd just tell them what you wrote - you aren't running a getaway weekend for amorous couples! A little humor and some healthy fear are a wonderful combination.

yeah pchadbo, I'm familiar with The Simpsons, alright. I'm just not delighted by the assumption a poster here seems to have made that a) the owner of the actual (not cartoon) business in question is likely South Asian and b) therefore doesn't know about US flag etiquette.

"speak to the owner (Apu?) or mangager about it," What the the hey? Seriously?

I understand your sadness, but if that friendly talk with the COR doesn't quickly rectify things, then you are more than justified in saying "thanks for all you've taught our son" and moving on to a troop where the adult drama doesn't overshadow the kids' experiences. As for being with his friends: if things continue in the vein that you've outlined, others will probably jump ship, too. Who knows, his friends might be among them. And if the other troop is any good, he will soon have great friends there, too.

Just want to point out that the traditional girl scout skirt & culottes were not exactly conducive to outdoor adventure.

There's an ethics column in the magazine section of the Sunday NY Times. Some of the situations are a bit grown up, but often, they're pretty good. (I liked the previous ethics advice guy better than the one they have right now, though)

Seems like a stupid requirement for any kind of award. Still, Venturing has a place. My son's troop started a Crew last year. The Crew has about 25 members. I'd say about 35% are not boy scouts. Nearly all the rest are 17-18-19-20 and either have aged out of boy scouts or will, within the next 6 months. Maybe two boys are 15 or 16. The girls tend to be a little younger (15-17) and most, but not all, have brothers in the troop and parents who are/have been very involved with the troop. What I think motivated starting this Crew was that the troop recognized that almost all of their "leadership patrol" was going to age out within a year. Those guys aren't all ready to perform as ASMs and most of them would rather stay on the youth side of program, than suddenly be "adults" with the "old goats". So the choice is to either lose these kids entirely, or give them an older youth program that they enjoy. Having said that, I have a hard time imagining 13 year olds being involved in the same program that is exciting to 20 year olds. I think it was a mistake by the BSA to lower the age limit. In fact, it would have been better to raise it to 15. IMO.

Eh. Or female.

no basement, it probably doesn't. I don't think this is well known among Michigan troop leaders. I do think there are a lot of folks who are unhappy with the mega merger of most of MI into one great big council. You also may be interested to know that some (former) MI councils actually didn't have their own boy scout camps. Mine didn't. Troops in our area have gone to OH camps lots of times, as a result.

The Council website indicates that their process for screening adult volunteers is not new. Presumably, unit sponsors who vehemently disagree will have jumped ship long ago. Are there still LDS/Catholic COs in Northern Star Council? (checks - yes, there are quite a few. In just one district, just looking at cub packs, I count 8 packs with LDS COs and 4 packs with Catholic Church or KofC COs.) http://northernlights.nsbsa.org/District/UnitListByType.aspx?UnitType=P Hmmm. Maybe the notion that all the LDS and Catholic COs would abandon ship is just so much hand wringing on some folks' parts.

There are also plenty of liberal Catholics out there. And SP, you really would benefit from halting your assumption that all liberals hate scouting. While currently in many parts of the country, conservatives probably outnumber liberals in scouting leadership circles, I certainly know plenty of liberals who love scouting, but who think the rather recent (2000) Dale decision was a poor choice for the scouting organization that they have loved, and been part of, for a long time. I am one of those. Assuming the worst of your fellow scouters ("you're a liberal! you hate scouting!") is, at best, counterproductive and sort of childish.