Lisabob

Well anarchist, I guess we disagree. No, not all campouts are going to be a lark. But your comparison (joy riding with Cindy Lu?) is hardly fair. One can work hard, even struggle with something, and still enjoy it. Even if it is difficult at the time, one can still see the value in it at the end of the day. And we are talking about boys here, who are attending these events primarily because they choose to - most are not forced and those who are (by parents, etc.) usually don't get much out of it anyway. And then, if your older boys are downright bored at very many campouts, I suspect many of them will drop out of your program. Service to others (including younger scouts on campouts you've been through before) is important but so is maintaining interest among all your members. So with due respect, yes I do think there needs to be a certain amount of enjoyment in the program if anybody expects the boys to continue in it. That doesn't mean no work, no growth, no learning. As for setting advancement requirements, nowhere that I can find in the boyscout handbook does it say one must participate in x% of a troop's activities in order to advance. If you would like to show us all where it does say that, please do. Otherwise, it seems to me any such policy is equivalent to adding to rank advancement requirements. And then the camping merit badge - here's what I found for requirement 9: "Show experience in camping by doing the following: Camp a total of at least 20 days and nights. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded). " Now this may be interpreted in a couple ways I guess, but it does clearly say a week of long-term camp counts. My interpretation of the above would be you need to sleep in a tent outside for all of the days excluding those you spend at your week of long-term camp. Yours might be different, I don't know. I'm not a MB counselor for this badge but I know the people in my son's troop who are DO count summer camp. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Cascodad, just FYI in my area many boys join immediately upon graduating kindergarten and do attend day camp as Tigers during the summer prior to 1st grade. Our council actively supports this. I'm sure others will disagree but as far as I'm concerned, whatever pack policy is regarding rank advancement should directly influence whether or not summer camp counts for the lower or higher rank for the outdoor activity award. In our pack, boys were considered to have "graduated" to the next rank as soon as the school year was over. At that point they could no longer work on previous rank requirements, arrow points, etc., but they could start working on their new rank requirements. So we would count summer camp toward the new rank. However, I know other packs that waited until the end of camp to "graduate" their boys. I imagine they'd count camp toward the "old" rank for the OAA. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other - I just don't think a boy could legitimately have it both ways (ie, counting some camp activities toward one rank and other camp activities toward the other rank, or counting one summer camp experience for two ranks for the OAA purpose.) Establish a clear pack policy, apply it consistently, and the problem will basically be solved. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Rooster7 you asked about troops w/ specific head gear. My son' troop includes a green beret in their class A definition. The berets are stamped in yellow lettering with the troop number, town, and BSA. (green/yellow are the local high school colors - I think that's why these were chosen - troop neckerchiefs are in these colors too). The troop buys the berets from a private company that makes them to order. My son and his buddies seem to like the berets. The troop also has baseball-style caps that are optional for class B but I hardly ever see any of the boys wearing those, even when the opportunity arises. The berets roll up fairly well when not in use and apparently aren't as bulky as the ones someone else mentioned. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I can't see how the CC can pull this off, or why he'd want to, scoutmom. If attendance at campouts is a real issue, the better approach would be to ask why. Maybe the program isn't very exciting or there aren't enough new experiences for returning scouts, or they're too challenging for the newer scouts, or something else is lacking. In that case, setting a mandatory attendance policy won't fix the problem and it'll probably just accelerate the drop out rate. I can also imagine you'd get some boys who would still attend because they feel they have to for advancement, rather than because they want to go on a particular campout. Boy, aren't they going to be fun to have around? Nothing worse than a group of sullen pre-teen/teen boys who feel they've been coerced into something they don't want to do. I'd hate to be the adult leader, let alone the SPL or PL, in charge of them. As for his summer camp argument, that's just nuts. Remind him that scouting is all about "fun with a purpose." In his opinion, does knowledge require suffering? This is all quite aside from the fact that he can't add advancement requirements and it certainly seems he's trying to. If he has been trained he should know better. If he hasn't been trained (or was, but in the days before electricity), that's a separate issue. Help him sign up for the nearest training session and/or get him to roundtable for a refresher in "best practices." Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

kram1, a couple thoughts based on my own experiences trying to pick up pieces in a pack that went through something similar. 1. It may be that you inadvertantly made a problematic situation worse for the committee by issuing that newsletter. If they hadn't had time to go through the proper motions for firing the other DL and officially hiring you, your action may be seen as a power play on your part to force the issue. Now I am sure this is not what you intended and it may be horribly unfair but still, some people will see it this way. So it may be useful for you to apologize to the committee for (again, INADVERTANTLY) making things any harder than they needed to be. If you do this, make sure to stay calm and rational and keep it short. 2. From your description, the CC acted terribly here. He needs to develop some better leadership skills. You have every right to be angry with the CC's response and solution (keeping the DL?!). However you're going to need to address this with the committee in a non-confrontational way. Could be that the CC was angry that your newsletter may make his job harder, and yet upon reflection I bet he knows he reacted badly. Give him several opportunities to gracefully reverse his statement about keeping the DL. If he apologizes in any way, take it at face value and start looking forward to what you can all do together to build a great program. After all, that's why you want to be part of the leadership, right? 3. If your pack has a good Unit Commissioner (part of the district-level staff), this is a great place for that person to offer assistance. Your UC ought to be able to help the pack identify proper procedure for getting rid of a lousy volunteer, as well as correctly replacing them with someone new. And UC's usually have lots of experience to draw from in terms of handling these sort of sticky adult blow outs. So if yours is any good, ask the CC and CM to involve him or her. But only do this if you aren't able to make progress with your CC and committee first. 4. If all of this fails despite your best efforts then yes, look at other packs. You'll need to explain this to your son. Don't share the nasty adult politics with him, just focus on the way the program is provided. If den or pack meetings aren't fun for the boys (because the leaders aren't doing a good job), your son will understand that without knowing the details. You can point out that other packs work differently and you want him to be part of a pack where the boys can't wait for the next meeting. Good luck and hang in there. If you are able to work it out you'll have a better pack and den, and you'll teach your son a good lesson about working through difficulties. If it turns out you need to find another pack, you're still showing him that simply quitting isn't the way to go either. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Offer to teach them a skill and make it fun. My son's troop does a fantastic open house program for webelos where the kids get a chance to do hands on stuff (put up a tent, build a fire, make dump cake, learn to tie a knot as part of a specific activity - not just for its own sake, etc.). The boys love it. I sure wish the adult leaders would do something like that for new parents too. Now we all know there are plenty of positions where being able to start a fire with a damp stick and an inch of rotting string in sub-zero weather while blindfolded is irrelevant, but they may not know or believe that. Give 'em a skill and they might be more confident about their ability to contribute as leaders. Aside from learning a new skill in a fun way it would be a great way to break the ice and introduce new parents to current leaders. The boys aren't the only ones who may be worried about feeling like "outsiders" or "newbies". Existing leaders get to know each other pretty well and it can be hard for new parents to break into that circle. Whatever scout-related social network they had from Cubs has just been broken up by the transition to Boy Scouts, and now they might not know any of the other adults. For women, who tend to be the majority in Cub pack leadership but a distinct minority in troop leadership, this may especially be an issue - though not always of course. Actively invite parents' participation, help them learn a new skill, and they'll feel more like they belong (just like with the boys, isn't it). Then maybe they'll get to understand the program better and in turn, be more willing to register as volunteers. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I would add a membership and/or round up chair (Could be one job or two separate). This person should be in charge of keeping on top of registrations and keeping a current pack roster so you can communicate with the families easily. They should also attend your district/council round up training and help plan your pack's recruitment efforts. You can also find a discussion of leadership positions in your Cub Leader Handbook (ch 7 I think) and a fairly helpful set of job descriptions at the Virtual Cub Scout Leader's Handbook website (not an official BSA site but a lifeline to cub leaders everywhere) at this link: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/leader-roles.pdf In terms of developing your ticket just be sure to give some thought to how you'll recruit people - it is one thing to have all these positions and quite another to fill them with qualified volunteers. That's a mistake I made after going through WB as a cub leader, probably because I was so "pumped up" that I figured *everybody* would want to volunteer, and that they'd all do a good job. Nope. Finding volunteers is tough but dealing with the problems caused by ill-suited volunteers is even tougher. As for training, we did three things. First, some of us on the committee simply decided that training would become the norm. So we created a training chair position (me) and told people they needed to be trained - didn't ask, plead, etc., just told them when they signed up that it was part of the package. Since YPT can be done online for free, the committee made it pack policy that all registered leaders do YPT within the first three months. You can compare this to the Bobcat for the boys - they need to get that before they can do anything else (except Tigers of course). A few of the "older" leaders who didn't want to bother quickly found themselves surrounded and outnumbered by people who supported training as a means of ensuring the pack program would be delivered correctly, by competent leadership. Amazing what this did for the outlook of those "older" leaders who either had to get with it or lose their influence in the group. Second, I went out of my way as training chair to find a great many training opportunities, far in advance of the actual dates, and publicize them in writing, secure commitments to attend, and then take care of all the details. You can't rely on Council to do this because face it, most pack leaders don't interact much with Council. You need an advocate inside your unit and you need to make it as easy as possible for people to attend. Among other things I developed a "welcome" letter outlining what the specific trainings were, why they needed them, and when they would be offered within a 50 mile radius of our town (not just our district/council). It includes a check-off sheet for leaders to sign up for training. Once they returned it, I would take care of all the scheduling and minutiae. I sent this out in August/Sept. (right after round up for fall trainings) December/January (spring trainings), and March/April (summer trainings). If you want I can email you the template I used, just let me know. When people did get trained, we made sure to recognize them. At the pack level we did all kinds of silly stuff (top banana awards, etc.) and at the district level we made sure they got the various cub leader knot awards that were available, once they'd met the requirements. See Virtual Cub Scout Handbook's "Leadership Recognition Plan" at http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/leader-awards.html Or ask your council/district staff about this. Third, the pack either pays up front or reimburses people for "regular" training (YPT, NLE, CLST, BALOO, OWL, OLS, etc.) and up to half of woodbadge. Once someone had committed to attend though, we wouldn't reimburse them if they canceled last minute and we still had to pay the training provider. This cut down on people who SAID they'd go but actually didn't. We started with a CM and one den leader trained for their positions -none of the committee members - and then the CM quit anyway, which is what prompted the committee to take a hard look at the situation. Lack of training was exacerbating (sometimes directly causing) a variety of problems in the pack. So we set a goal of reaching the minimum training targets for quality unit within one year. That first year was the hardest until we had a critical mass of trained leaders. We did meet the goal though. After 2 1/2 years we were at 100% trained, both on the Den Leader/Cubmaster side and the committee member side. The difference in our pack programming was unbelievable. Those in leadership started having fun again because we were less stressed and better prepared, which in turn helped with recruiting new leaders. And new leaders in the pack today seem more open to going to training because that's just part of the pack "culture" now. Good luck w/ your ticket! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

This is one of those intangibles yet obviously one of the most important things we could hope the scouts develop as a result of the program. I'm curious about how you approach this? Do the boys in your troop have a good idea about what they should be doing if they want you to sign off on this for rank advancement? If so, what do you do to communicate those expectations to them, in addition to leading by example of course? Boys being, well, boys instead of adults, they're bound to have some un-scoutlike moments along the way. How far do you go with these "moments" in terms of declining to sign off for rank advancement? I'm not talking about cases of really egregiously bad behavior, I'm talking about the occasional flash of attitude, sulking, unkind language toward another scout (often well-earned by the recipient, but still...), and the like. Also does anybody actively solicit input from teachers/parents/church leaders etc. as part of evaluating a scout's spirit, other than in letters of rec. for Eagle? If parent says, "well Johnny has been an absolute nightmare lately at home" but you've only seen his good side at troop activities, would you consider not signing off on the spirit requirement for advancement? These are not related to any specific situation - I'm just curious as someone fairly new to the boy scout side of things. Thanks. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I suppose we could debate the exact meaning of the requirement but here's how we did it. After attending various troop meetings and activities we invited the SMs from the troops our webelos wanted to join to come to den meetings. That's where they did the conferences (individually). In a couple cases, boys who couldn't decide which troop to join met with more than one SM. Neither SM had a problem with this approach, they were glad that we were doing the conferences at all - apparently most packs in our area somehow miss this requirement (don't ask me how, I don't know!). As an added benefit, one boy who *really* wanted to join boy scouts and yet whose parent was on the fence managed to get the SM to help him convince the parent to change his mind. Parent had wanted the boy to stop after AoL due to other commitments - SM took parent aside and explained how the troop was flexible regarding sports schedules, etc., and that parents didn't have to attend all events. It isn't like we (cub leaders) hadn't already explained this, but it seemed to matter to this parent more coming from the SM, with the boy standing right next to him. If we'd arranged it so that the boys had to go elsewhere (not a den meeting) to have their conferences, I doubt this parent would've attended at all and we probably would have lost the boy after Blue & Gold. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

My son's troop meetings break down as follows: 1. opening ceremony including flag salute,uniform inspections and attendance, and various announcements 2. patrol meeting (what happens here varies) 3. a troop-wide activity (skill, game, preparation for upcoming event, ocassional guest speaker, etc.) 4. some time where the boys don't seem to do much except "hang out" but I think this is supposed to be time to take care of paperwork related to upcoming events - often resembles "semi-organized chaos." 5. closing ceremony including retiring the colors, benediction, and any other announcements. In his troop the PLC sets the agenda and carries it out. (From a parental perspective) successful implementation appears to vary - more chaos sometimes than others - part of the "boy led" aspect of the troop I guess. ASMs/SM, Committee members, and other parents are generally at the troop meetings in large numbers but are rarely directly involved. They tend to be in the back of the room. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

The course I was part of (C-19-03 at Camp Munhacke in MI) was great. Well-run and (mostly) very professional, also fun. There was a lot of emphasis on thinking problems through and learning to utilize the talents of everyone on your team. 5 of the 6 people in our patrol finished our tickets. I suspect the 6th attended the training partly because his wife did too and she seemed a lot more motivated than he was. The most useful part of the training was the network I developed. I know I can call up any of those folks with questions any time I need to - and of course vice versa. The tickets definitely helped strengthen my pack, and I was excited to see other pack leaders (who hadn't gone to WB and probably never will) start to absorb and use some of the WB skills I brought back too. It really rubbed off. The least useful part to me were the "mandatory" movies. I'm not a big movie buff so this is just my take on it - doubtless someone will disagree. But they were shown very late at night when, honestly, I would've benefited more from a good night's sleep. I'd rather have rented the movie and watched it at home during the 2 weeks we had between WB weekends. Then I suppose we could've discussed the movie as a patrol or something. Interesting/Strange things for me: 1. As a cub leader at the time, I was in a distinct minority in our woodbadge class. Quite aside from the leadership training aspect of the program, I found I developed a better understanding of the boy scouting end of the BSA program, which helped me as a webelos leader. 2. Still, it was so heavily BOY SCOUT - oriented that at times the other program areas got really short shrift. A couple of examples, we went from being "tigers" to "webelos" in the space of about 2 hours, mainly through filling out paperwork and "cutesy" stuff but somewhat of a condescending attitude toward the entire Cub program. In the jeopardy/trivia game, questions about the Cub program were incorrect or outdated. None of the staff were recent cub leaders and didn't know a lot about how the cub program had changed in the last 10-15-20-etc. years since they last had direct contact with it. I know the relatively few Venturing people there felt the same way about how their program was incorporated - sort of as an after-thought. We didn't have any Varsity people. 3. There was a lot of talk by the WB staff about getting new scouters through WB training within a couple of years of entering the ranks as leaders, rather than having WB be a sort of "crowning achievement" of a longtime scouter's career. At the time I was fairly new to scouting (had been a leader for 2 years, in the Cub program and at the unit-level only) so I was their new target audience I guess. Lots of discussion among participants about this. How would it change the WB experience? Generally feelings were mixed. IMO a cool thing about our patrol was that we ran the gamut of experience and age. We had a 19 yo brand new ASM who had earned eagle not long ago, all the way through a guy in his 60s who had been a scouter with the same troop for years, me as a Cub leader, a couple of Venture leaders starting a new Crew. Each of us brought different perspectives and skills. As a patrol we capitalized on that and I think it was good for all of us. Newer leaders gained from the experience of longtime leaders, and the "seasoned" veterans said they gained from our (still fresh) enthusiasm and knowledge of how the programs had changed since "their day." I'd hate to lose that mix and only have new leaders there. On the other hand, I can see that the leadership skills emphasized in WB for the 21st C. might be most useful to newer leaders, rather than expecting them to figure out half that stuff through years of trial & error. Also if you want Cub leadership to benefit more from WB then you need to encourage newer leaders to sign up since most Cub packs don't have very many of the "seasoned veteran" types in their leadership cadres. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

My beef with mandatory fundraising quotas and buyouts is that they tend to assume either that the parents are able to afford the buyout, or that the family can provide a social- or work-related sales network for the boys to exploit. This is especially true with fundraising events that stress an experience rather than selling a tangible product. (For example, participating in a road rally, or a jeopardy-style trivia night, at $10 or $20/person - these kinds of events are increasingly popular where I live). In the long term, the boy who doesn't have family to rely on for a customer base, or whose parents can't afford the buy-outs may end up gaining more from the experience of having to struggle to pay his own way. I agree that this can be healthy in certain situations. But, when organized poorly, it can also be really stressful for the boy and his family. Parents may decide not to join, or to quit if they did join, rather than have to explain their financial difficulties to the child (especially at the cub level). I have also seen it become a sort of status marker within a group of older boys. "Oh, you had to sell the stuff because you're too poor. Ha ha." I'm sure unintentionally, the lesson becomes that it is good to have well-connected parentsnot that the boys should be thrifty and hard working. So if you're going to make something mandatory and/or have a buy-out or quota , you'd better make darn sure that you also provide plenty of opportunities for the boys to participate and work toward that quota even if their family can't pony up the money or provide a ready-made sales network for the boys. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Yeah well at least we're not prone to mange (grin). Lisa'bob A good old BOBWHITE too!

Wow, lots of great ideas here, thanks everyone. I'm going to print this out. I love the quilt idea. Herms, I guess I didn't realize that the boys could wear those (expensive!) red jackets. I think I may wait until I'm pretty sure my son won't outgrow it in 2 months before buying one of those, but it would be neat to have a little ways down the road. Thanks again for all the ideas. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Thanks, EiKY for your replies. Very interesting to see how other troops deal with these issues. Anarchist, I answered some of your questions in that other thread so I won't repeat here either. The reason I spun off a new thread was to get a more general set of responses and insights to these questions (which must, after all, come up fairly frequently with new scouts), rather than a reaction to the specific situation in my son's troop. However, yes, I am a registered scouter and I have been for 5 years. Not long in comparison to many of you with more experience, but I do think I basically understand and support most of what scouting is about. Currently I'm on the troop committee and involved with some projects at the district level. Got my woodbadge beads in June too if that counts for anything. And let me tell you, we BOBWHITES rock the joint. Don't even try to deny it! I don't think the tenderfoot or second class requirements are beyond the ability of a typical 11 year old boy. I'm not asking about basic ability to learn the skills though. I'm asking about what people expect from the new scouts in their troops in terms of the boys taking initiative to get someone besides mom/dad to teach them these skills. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Anarchist, Of course I'm still "talking" to you...no worries, I've got thicker skin than that! And yes I've read the BSA handbook for the boys as well as gone through a fair amount of BSA leader training directed primarily at Boy Scout leaders (like Woodbadge). I don't pretend to understand all the nuances of the program though and there are times when the differences between cubs and boy scouts catch me off guard. In this case though, I suspect the issue is as much about troop "culture" as the divide between cubs and boy scouts. To answer your questions: 1. yes there are two NSP and he's in one, along with several other boys from his former pack. 2. No, I don't think the PL is the troop guide, but I'm not 100% sure on this. He is an older (14 yo) scout though. 3. yes there is an ASM assigned to the NSP 4. My son has been on 7 campouts since crossing over - he has missed 1. I have not been at all of the campouts, at my son's request (he wants to do some things w/o mom there and I can sympathize with that!). My son's interpretation in terms of what goes on at the campouts varies. Some have a clear program element like a 5 mile hike or the district camporee at the May/June camps. Others, he says they spend almost all their time cooking (mainly the PL does this from the sound of things), eating, cleaning, and either sitting around or following the older boys around. I'd like him to be more assertive here - ask for someone to show him how to do skill x, y, z - but this is where he and I don't see eye to eye. 5. Yes we both have read the book, together and separate. This is something I did in preparation for woodbadge training (as a cub leader) and in an attempt to help prepare our webelos scouts for the transition. It is something I've encouraged my son to do and more or less, he's probably read everything through the 1st class rank at least once. Like you, I have little patience for people who won't bother to at least look at the book. But there's a difference between reading and doing, and this is a big reason I want him to be active in scouts - to DO things. 6. Yes he takes his handbook with him on campouts. Whether he always uses it while there...I can't be sure. 7. Yes he went to summer camp, but as a provo scout rather than with his troop (his troop went on a trip to a national park instead of regular BSA camp. Unfortunately the trip conflicted with a major family event that my son really wanted to attend. So we arranged for him to attend a traditional BSA camp as a provo scout a different week- better than nothing, we figured). We were proud of him for doing it. He was one of the youngest boys in the provo troop (he was 10 at the time, the rest were at least 13) and didn't know a single person there, while most of the other boys in the provo troop did know each other. He enjoyed camp, did some merit badge work, but didn't attend the 1st year program he was signed up for (says he didn't realize he was supposed to, though I still can't figure out how that could've been the case!). It would've been a good opportunity for him to learn and practice basic skills if he had done it, but as I wasn't there and didn't find out until the week was over, not much to be done about it. 8. Specific skills he's not learning: **knot tying, whipping, and fusing - well, actually I taught him these (and he'd done whipping and fusing in webelos too)- as you say, it isn't rocket science. But the point of scouting isn't to have mom teach you everything, this was just an act of exasperation on my part. **fire building and safety **outdoor cooking (they cook on propane stoves but the PL does most of the work here) **knife/axe/saw safety and use (he has a whittling chip from cubs but that's not the same as the expectations for 2nd class or totin' chip) **first aid (yes, some parts are similar to readyman but just because he did it as a webelos in 4th grade doesn't mean he remembers it now) **map & compass skills I really don't want his troop meetings to be like scout school. I guess I would like a more structured opportunity for him to work on the above skills though. Even in cases where he took rope and a compass with him to meetings, he hasn't really gotten what he was looking for. For example, when he took the rope to a meeting some of the older boys and adults ended up tying all kinds of knots and having fun with it but they did NOT show the younger guys how to tie a taut line or double half hitch (or any of the other knots either), which was kind of the point there, and what he was asking for. Now, my son could probably have interrupted and said "excuse me but I brought that rope because I was hoping you could teach me how to tie this specific knot." Personally, that's what I'd like for him to have done. But he's young. He wants these older guys to accept him. And he's not going to challenge them that directly. It was after this that I finally said here, I can show you how to tie these knots, which I had been avoiding in the hope that the troop would provide opportunities for him to learn this from someone other than me. Actually he will probably finish his tenderfoot requirements before the end of December (10 months after joining) because I am going to end up doing it with him at home, rather than have him continue talking about quitting because he isn't making any progress. But again, that's not the point. There will be a time soon when I really can't teach him these things. I don't know anything about handling an axe, for example, and sure don't want to "teach" him after just reading the book, with no experience. Even if I could teach him all this stuff though, isn't part of the scouting experience that you learn new things from new people? And the larger question still, beyond my boy, is whether running such a hands-off first year program will lead to retention problems, is on my mind. Not all parents are going to decide to step in and teach their boys these skills if the troop doesn't. Some will just quit. That's so unfortunate. These concerns have already been brought to the committee's attention (and the ASMs/SM) by several parents. They are, again, really nice people with lots of great ideas and big hearts - why else would they spend their time in scouting, right? And as I think you said in a post elsewhere on this board, there's a definite concern about newbie parents jumping in and suggesting change before they know what they're talking about. But, the response I've seen so far from the troop leadership (adult) was that these new boys need to be more assertive and that will solve everything. My whole point is that maybe it is unrealistic to expect them to be a whole lot more assertive than they are, without some guidelines or clear windows of opportunity in which to do that. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

This has been spun off from another thread ("Another Stupid Question" in the patrol method forum). I'm curious to know how or if you help your new scouts, usually 10-12yrs old, to take initiative in terms of seeking help for rank advancement and learning new skills. Also, how much initiative you expect of them at that age and in the early ranks (say, working toward tenderfoot and 2nd class), in comparison to more experienced/older scouts? 1. Do you find that most new scouts in this age group are capable of taking initiative on their own, or is this something they usually need to be taught? Assuming the latter, how do you help them learn this? 2. Do you set aside specific time for advancement work during troop meetings? If so, who decides what skills should be taught, and who teaches them? How often do you do this? 3. As adult leaders, do you make it known to the boys that you are available for assistance at specific times to scouts who want help with skills x, y, z? Or is it up to them to figure that out and contact you? 4. Do you encourage or expect scouts to contact youth- or adult-leaders outside of troop meetings, campouts, activities, etc. to work on rank advancement skills independently (like they might work on a merit badge with a counselor)? 5. Do you do nothing and wait until the boys finally "see the light" and seize the initiative on their own? 7. After a while, with boys who aren't advancing at these early ranks (ie, crossed over from cubs 6-9-12 months ago and haven't earned tenderfoot even though they're at most activities) do you start doing anything different, or do you let it be? 6. Do you do something else, and if so, what? This seems like something that lots of troops must have some experience with, given the age group and the program differences between cubs and boy scouts, so please, share yours with me. Thanks. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

gwd-scouter, if your whole troop sells just $600 of product and you are making the standard 33% unit-level profit of about $200, and now you have to pay almost $100 of that profit for excess product, then yes you have a problem. Heck, you could probably raise more money doing a soda can drive. I guess if it were me I would take the math to the council professionals and politely explain to them why, sadly, next year, your unit will not be able to participate in the council popcorn sale. And that you'll be planning an alternate fundraiser instead (for which you do need council approval - guidelines are on the back of the unit-fundraising application) because, after all, you have to fund your unit somehow...unless council wishes to donate money to you (ha!)...or stop making you purchase whole cases... This should get their attention because council only gets a "cut" of the sales from the popcorn fundraiser, and not from other unit fundraisers. The alternative is to really push the popcorn sale at the troop/pack level next year, but if you have a small unit and/or you are competing with a lot of other units who also sell the same popcorn in a small town, this may not be very easy to do. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I share Michelle's and her nephew's frustration, as this is similar to the way my son's troop operates. The only difference is that in my son's troop there are plenty of new scouts instead of just a couple. 8 months after the cross-over, 2 of 12 boys have achieved tenderfoot, none have 2nd class. This isn't for lack of attendance on the part of the other 10 boys, his troop just takes a very hands-off approach to advancement that requires the boys to be quite assertive. I understand the value of that in terms of the boys' personal growth but at some points I wonder if it isn't a bit too daunting for those new guys. The 2 boys who have made tenderfoot did most of the work at home with their dads (both eagle scouts), not through being assertive and seeking out instruction from the more advanced scouts or the(non-parental) ASMs. The dads then helped these 2 boys approach somebody to get requirements signed off. In talking with my son about this situation what I hear is that he doesn't want to appear to challenge "the way things are" because he's the new-comer to the group and wants desparately to fit in. He just about idolizes the older boys so he hesitates to push things or ask the older boys to take time from whatever they're doing to teach him. While the PL (appointed by the troop - he's either 1st Cl or Star rank, I forget which) is a really nice young man who seems eager to have his patrol like him, I haven't seen him actually teach the boys any scout skills. My son is sure his PL walks on water though and wouldn't dream of pressing the PL for more direct assistance, even though that's probably what he needs to do. Also like Michelle's nephew, no way does he want to change troops so I've stayed silent on that matter, even though other troops in town take a little more of a hands-on approach with their first-year scouts and I think he'd benefit from that style. Result: he enjoys hanging around with these boys but he isn't learning much in terms of skills, consequently struggles with basic outdoor stuff at camp outs, gets easily frustrated by the stuff he doesn't know how to do, and has even talked about quitting - yet he won't ask the other boys directly for help either. I've had a couple of quiet conversations with the advancement chair, CC, and SM and the response has been pretty much that this is a boy led troop (is this the answer to *every* question?? seems to be!) and the new scouts need to learn to be assertive. I've heard the SM mention to the older boys that they need to help the newer scouts but there's a long way between being willing (which I believe they basically are)and creating that opening for the new boys so the pressure's not always on them to ask. I'm not talking about hand holding here, I just think that the younger boys could use an occasional structured opportunity for success as encouragement to keep working and growing, and to help them develop the habit of seeking out these older boys on their own. As a recent cub leader and a mom to boot though, I find a common response is that "oh, this is just the difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts," sometimes coupled with "you're being over-protective because you're the mom." Even if that were the case - and I don't think it is accurate here, I've been vigilant about not getting over-involved in my son's Boy Scouting experience - it isn't that helpful. The reality is still that here's a situation where boys are not learning basic skills, are not advancing, and may well be at a risk of dropping out rather than speaking up. Sorry for the longish post. It's just a frustrating situation to watch. Michelle, I hope your nephew sticks with it. My sense is that the boys who manage to hang in there under these conditions really do develop valuable skills - it is just a question of whether or not they'll stay in the program long enough to do so. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Wow is that a short-sighted attitude. As a former cub leader this is JUST the kind of attitude from some (all too common in my experience!) in the Boy Scout end of programming that really ticks me off. Where do these folks in your lodge think most boy scouts (and hence, most OA members) come from, if not from the cub scout program? Have they spent any time lately actually talking with any cub leaders about their cub outdoor programs??? I hope these same people aren't ever caught bemoaning boy scout recruiting trends... At the very least, maybe you can suggest that participation in activities directly linked to encouraging webelos-scout transition have an obvious pay off. Things like "webelos woods" or sending dance teams to blue&golds, etc.. Thankfully the OA lodge in our area takes a different view and they have helped organize some of the best Cub outdoor programs I've been to in our district. It is a win-win situation. We (Cub leaders) got help providing great outdoor programs, which is harder at the cub level because many cub leaders are still developing their own outdoor skills. Cub boys were awe-struck by those "cool" OA members and maybe a few more will stay in scouts past Cubbing as a result. OA got recognition, exposure, and new interest. OK I'll get off the soap box now. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Our council requires units to buy full cases too and no, we can't return opened cases either. Argh. Anyway our pack has dealt with it by using the leftover for prizes, as thank you gifts to people who help us out (like the school janitor who bends over backwards - sometimes literally - for us and doesn't get paid any extra), and as samples for show&sells in the future. I've heard of a few packs that have an informal swap set up so they can fill small orders without having to buy another whole case from council. Lisabob A good old bobwhite too!

EagleinKY, it is interesting what you said about the appearance of an adult-led troop and parents who think their boy can be done before he's 14, etc.. No doubt there are plenty of these folks out there. I probably misunderstood the "boy-led" idea too prior to my son crossing over, despite my best efforts to learn a lot about all of the BSA programs - seeing is not the same as experiencing. But I know a lot of parents who wanted their boy to join "the organized troop" (ie, the adult-led) in town not so much to pursue a quick-n-dirty path to Eagle, but rather because they wanted to make sure the considerable time their boy would spend in Boy Scouting would be "worthwhile." That's still a problematic understanding of how "boy led" and "worthwhile" actually fit together, but at least parents' gravitation toward an adult-led group sprung from more laudable motives than those that you describe. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Wish I'd had your webelos to scout transition class when I was a webelos leader! One thing I've seen in my area is that a lot of packs and troops don't think very creatively about opportunities to get the webelos and boy scouts together and interacting on any kind of regular basis. There are some troops that seem to have a once-a-year (whether you need it or not) kind of mentality toward the idea that they should invite webelos to their events. And there are WDLs who seem to think going to the annual troop open house is all they should do too. Neither side really gets to know each other that way. So getting a list of creative ideas for more regular interactions together might be helpful - things that could be initiated by WDLS, SMs, or both, depending on your expected audience. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Beth you asked about "keepting the boys interested in the less exciting subjects/activities" What NOT to do... The first, and worst, den meeting I EVER ran was a local history walking tour of our town for the Bear book (requirement 4 I think). I did all this research, set up a great 1/2 hour walk, Parents loved it, the boys absolutely hated every minute of it. And they didn't learn much either. What worked much better... Thank goodness they gave me a second chance. From then on almost everything we did had to meet the "fun with a purpose" test. The citizenship badge for webelos (and I teach government for a living but geez, the book is a little dry)was turned into a game. For the webelos readyman badge (basic first aid) we took part in a community disaster training drill where, along w/ learning the required material, the boys got to "simulate" being victims and wear fake blood, get bandaged, etc. You should've heard the drama in that one! Such convincing moans and groans! But not only did they learn the stuff, they still remember it - fondly too. We relied on the kindness of local boy scout troops, who invited us to some of their activities, to help with knot tying and some other "scout skill" activities. Teaching a bunch of squirrelly 8-9-10 year olds to tie knots and use compasses because the book says you should doesn't work as well as when they're doing it as part of a "treasure hunt/obstacle course" kind of scenario, where it is part of the adventure. Our pack is chartered by a public school PTO so I left most of the religious requirements and material dealing with sexual abuse and drug use up to the parents to do at home. I was very clear to parents about this being their job and most of them had no problem with that. For those who wanted it, I provided BSA-approved pamphlets and handouts to help them along the way. That said, it also meant I had to take the boys' word that they actually covered that material at home as required. But then, the first part of the Boy Scout law is that "A scout is trustworthy..." Hope this helps a little. Overall, just try to keep things hands-on whenever possible. If you need ideas for utilizing community resources in your area to make things come alive, again, places like roundtable and other training sessions are really helpful. Just ask other leaders what did/didn't work for them. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Welcome Beth! Not sure what age group you've got? Things that worked great w/ wolves wouldn't fly w/ some webelos. A couple thoughts from my experiences as a cub leader: 1. Crafts - Nature-related crafts or wood crafts that included tools, painting/staining, and gloppy stuff were bigger hits with the boys than most pre-packaged kits with lots of steps/small parts. Some boys hate doing crafts though so be careful not to over-do it, and try to include things they might not think of as "crafty". Tying these in to the program isn't so hard: **Wolf book - requirement 5 (tools)& various electives **Bear book - requirements 20 (sawdust&nails), 21 (build a model), 7 (law enforcement - fingerprints, plaster paris shoe tracks, etc.), 5 (sharing your world w/ wildlife), 8( the past...den/pack scrapbook - we made time capsules too) & various electives **Webelos book - artist, craftsman, showman activity badges **Beltloops often include things like making models or posters- which could be more, or less, craft-oriented depending on the boys. **Make a den flag, totem, neckerchief slides, den sweatshirts w/ glitter, glue, fabric paint, etc. Not everything has to be in the rank advancement books to be worth doing. Most Council scout shops sell various BSA craft kits. Some were ok (tool box & bird houses) but others I wasn't very impressed with and I thought they were pricey (leather coin purses for example). You can probably do better on your own. If you ask in advance you can usually get donations of craft supplies from local stores too. 2. Resources for leaders - in addition to the basic training and Pow Wow, most districts have a monthly "round table." If yours has a separate cub scout break out session, these can be great places to get new ideas and try out craft projects to see if they'll actually work. And my favorite cub-related web site with gems of all kinds is the Virtual Cub Scout Leader Handbook - it saved me more than once: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/ 3. Discipline - with a few exceptions, if the boys are engaged in a fun, worthwhile activity, discipline isn't such an issue. Keep the time frame appropriate for the boys' ages, include a mix of active and sit-down activities, and make sure the other parents are there to lend a hand. One of those things you'll hear over & over in training: "KISMIF" Keep it SIMPLE, make it FUN. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!