Lisabob

Torveaux I agree. When I was a WDL we had 3 boys get all 20 pins. Those three made a deal with each other as W 1's that they'd help each other "make it" so it was pretty nice to see them work together like that. One of the three was being seriously pushed by parents but I think he'd have done it regardless. The other 4 boys earned anywhere from 8-17 pins and they were perfectly happy with that, weren't ever really interested in aiming for all 20. All 7 crossed over to a troop last February and I've never heard another word about those webelos pins either. But, about a year later, only the three boys who earned all 20 pins are still in scouts. I wouldn't have expected that to be honest, and I'm not convinced it is a result of earning the pins, but it is still interesting that it worked out this way. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I served as a pack trainer and it was the first time the pack had filled this position. I came in as a leader shortly after a major leadership blow-out regarding proper responses to allegations of child abuse. A primary cause of the problem was a lack of proper leader training so they were "ripe" for having someone step in as pack trainer. Admittedly I used the position as sort of a bully pulpit for convincing leaders to do YPT at a bare minimum. (I just interpreted the Quality Unit requirement to have someone in charge of YPT training as meaning they needed a pack trainer to do this - fait accompli) If it hadn't been for that particular situation I doubt the pack would've had any interest in filling this position. They were having enough trouble just filling the "essential" committee jobs at the time. This seems to be a common problem. I don't know of any other packs in our area that have a pack trainer. Looking again at the job description, the major thing I changed was that I did not do a new family orientation with every family within a week of them joining. I focused more on getting the leaders fully trained and then left it to the DLs to orient new families. However, I did put together an orientation booklet for new parents (and leaders too I guess) explaining the program, the ranks, awards & advancements, uniforming, pack guidelines, etc. While I was the pack trainer I offered to help with district and council training matters but I never got much response. They seem to have their core of people who do training and it doesn't change much from year to year. I'm pretty sure there are few or no pack trainers involved in our district and council training team because nearly all of the people on the training team come from the boy scout end of the BSA program anyway. I think it would be helpful to get more pack leaders of any kind involved in the district and council training committee and staff because it would help keep the district/council staff up to date with regard to changes in the Cub Scout program. My experience is that most people involved in pretty much any district/council committee are pretty far removed from Cub Scouting and their memory of how the program works (let alone, how it has changed since their involvement) can be...err...hazy. Good luck and let us know how this all works out for you! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Just curious, is there a minimum rank or age level required for these patrol campouts, or is it just a common sense guideline? Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I'm with everyone who says this is not really a "service" project. Beyond that, my understanding was that if a BSA unit wants to raise money for donation to an outside charity then technically they have to get council approval for that too. I ran smack into this myself at a district meeting not too long ago. In a misguided fit of good will I proposed doing a fundraiser where money would be donated to red cross for a certain recent disaster. The council folks pitched a small fit. According to them at least, all charitable fundraising by scout units for organizations other than BSA is strictly forbidden without explicit written permission from council. (and they did have reference to specific BSA literature but I no longer have it handy to quote chapter and verse, sorry) What ensued (as prelude to a much bigger fit, I might add)was a long and messy conversation about the appropriateness of unit-level raffles, car washes, spagetti dinners, etc.. where part of the money is donated to a local charity (very common practice in our area), holiday monetary donations from units to groups like Toys for Tots, etc.. We were also informed that under no circumstance could we raise money specifically for our CO, no matter how worthy the CO may be, or what its particular charitable status is. If these don't pass muster - and I was told in fairly clear terms that they *do! not!* - then I can only imagine the local Council reaction to some unit selling (homemade? yuck) cookie dough for charity...if in fact the unit hadn't sought and received permission from Council to do so. Anyway, it sure doesn't sound like a service project from the description provided so far. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

We played jeopardy too. Only problem was that several of the answers for the cub scout questions were wrong. For example one about the beltloops hadn't been updated to include the newer loops, but Wb staff (not recent cub leaders) wouldn't believe that this was the case! Actually we had some fun with this, "awarded" the new beltloops to them as "dangles" for their patrol flag in a little ceremony on the second weekend. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Dan, rocker segments are 1/4 inch patches with various designs and no standard requirements to earn them. There are at least a couple hundred different ones. As a DL I used to pick these up as cheap (approx .40 each) instant recognitions of things we had done in the den meetings. Boys usually put them on their red vests in a circle, using some other patch as the center piece. Some councils set requirements for certain segments, but I think that's unusual. Here's a link to the Grand Teton Council page which includes pictures of a few of these patches. http://www.grandtetoncouncil.org/index.cfm?pageid=1379 Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Jerry, No I don't believe that withholding a patch makes the experience more meaningful, or that getting a patch reduces the meaning of the experience. That's not what I meant to suggest. And I agree that giving a patch can motivate some people to attend an event. However, I have seen situations where boys are given 10-15 patches or awards at every pack meeting and half of the patches/awards are for things the boys can't even identify, doesn't remember, or never did - just "bling." This is usually the result of very pushy parents who insist that their boy get every award and patch ever produced - a misplaced sense that this will make the boy more worthy or pump up the boy's self esteem, or I don't know what. In those cases it becomes a matter of who can collect the most loot, not a genuine recognition of an experience, activity, etc.. And imo that does cheapen the meaning behind other awards that the boys do actually put effort into achieving. In this context, I actually have had to deal with boys who were in tears because "Joey got more patches than I did." I've also had to deal with their annoying parents who actually boasted about the number of awards their boys were getting vs. some other children, in front of the boys. So no, all I was saying is that the awards should be genuine reflections of things the boys actually did or earned in some way. Jerry, question for you too - what do you do about the Webelos and beltloops, where some beltloops are required in order to get the webelos pin (and so part of the advancement requirements)? Do parents pay for those too? Just curious. We found many of our Webelos already had or didn't particularly want the beltloops anyway, but that wasn't the case for all of them. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I teach the prisoner's dilemma as part of a course on war and conflict so I had a pretty good idea where the Win All You Can game was going. Still, the way the game was presented or maybe the way it was designed, I don't think the point came through very clearly. Then again maybe this was just the way things worked out in our particular WB course, I'm not sure. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

We have done this beltloop and the webelos aquanaut at a local public pool where lifeguards are provided as part of the user fee. This makes things much, much easier on the pack leadership. Still, I always prefer to have as many parents attend as possible, even if they aren't in the water with the kids - more eyes are better. I know of some packs who also require a parental signature on a permission slip for a boy to go in the deeper water. Sometimes what a young kid says he can do doesn't match his actual ability so it is just an extra safeguard - but not a BSA requirement. Once you get past all the rules, this is a blast to do. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Hunt, I'm curious about your statement that units can't be chartered to schools? Does that include PTOs? Around here the majority of cub packs are chartered through public school PTOs although relatively few troops are. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

treasurermom, thanks for the update. Please don't let the choice of troops be driven too much by where this woman ends up - chances are good they'll end up dropping out anyway. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Semper - great advice. dlw - I understand your frustration. Leading change is really difficult. Be careful, though, about assuming that everyone is against you because they haven't immediately bought into the changes you are trying to implement. These things take time. Whenever you seek to change things, you need to prioritize. Reality is, you aren't going to succeed in making a ton of changes quickly so pick a couple of things and be patient. Implementing change requires buy-in on the part of other leaders. It doesn't sound like you have that right now. Especially as someone new to the group, you can't force it down their throats and expect it to work. I'm sure you don't see it that way but maybe they do? To get buy-in you need to present a clear vision of how your proposed change is going to improve on a current deficiency. It almost doesn't matter whether you're right about the changes you want to make. If you can't convince others to work with you, change isn't going to happen the way you want it to, no matter how good your ideas and intentions are. You may need to slow down a little and spend some time sharing ideas with the other leaders. Be open to theirs too. Once you all have a more common vision of where you want the pack to go, you'll run into less resistance. Right now I know a pack in my town that has a new family, very gung-ho about scouting. However, one of the parents in this family has managed to alienate pretty much everyone in the pack because, at every turn, she is heard to say (loudly!) "well in MY OLD PACK..." The implication is the "old" pack was always right and the folks in charge of the current pack must be idiots. Sadly, nobody in the current pack is going to follow her just now, no matter what great ideas she may have. Some people will never change no matter what you do. Semper's right, they'll probably move on of their own accord in the not so distant future anyway. But be careful that you don't write people off as dead wood just because they disagree with you or don't react exactly how you want them to. Most of the complaints/comments you mentioned in your post are NOT the CM's job to deal with (fund raising, dues, leader training, awards, running leader meetings, etc.). You can and should side step these problems. If you start trying to solve all of them, some folks will rightfully complain that you're overstepping your authority and anyway it'll only give you a big headache. Perhaps the biggest and most useful change you can suggest to this pack is that you/they develop a working committee. If the CM is expected to do all of this other stuff too, no wonder nobody in the pack wanted to be CM! But be aware that the CM has much less influence in a pack with a functional committee. Smart committees will seek input and work together with their CM, but in the final analysis, the committee decides pack policy (within the BSA boundaries of course), not the CM. Before you make any decisions, Semper's post is worth re-reading. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I hope you have a great time, cold and all! The Webelos program was my favorite time to be a leader - so many possibilities and the boys are old enough to handle a little more of a challenge too. So I'm biased here but I hope you'll decide to stay on because you'll probably end up enjoying it. Is your son a Webelos 1 or W2 now? If W1, it might take the boys in the den a little while to understand that they can have a much bigger voice than before in choosing activities that the den will do (within certain boundaries of course). But, if you haven't already, you could have a den planning night where you brainstorm with the boys and come up with cool places to go/things to do. (Ask some other past/present Webelos leaders at training this weekend what their favorite activities were so you have an arsenal of ideas ready in case the boys give you blank stares at first). The first time we did this was a bit of a dud (blank stares) so we gave the boys three choices and had them vote on which one to do during the next month. Subsequent attempts at brainstorming were much more successful. I don't know if it was just a new experience for them to be asked for input, or if they didn't believe we'd follow up on their ideas or what that first time. If W2, some of the boys might be a little burned out on the traditional den meeting format, esp. if they've been in since Tigers. In that case maybe set the book aside for a little bit and have some just-for-fun activities. Tell us all about OLS when you get back! best, Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I hope things will improve, parents will come to their senses and start helping more, and that you'll change your mind. But if they don't, please don't just quit out of the blue on them or stop showing up like someone else mentioned. You don't deserve to be treated poorly by your pack but at the very least they deserve a little advance notice from you. The positive side to staying on in a situation like this one (and I've been there myself, though as a DL and committee member, not CM) is that you'll often get a small core of dedicated parents who are really neat people to work with, who emerge as leaders and want to make things work. Together with them you can re-shape the pack and have a much stronger program. It's a matter of surviving long enough to get to that point though and it is a commitment. I looked at it as a commitment to my own child though - for a variety of reasons, switching packs wasn't much of an option for us at the time so I was either going to have to roll up my sleeves or else pull him out of cub scouts all together. If you decide to stay...are these other leaders trained for their positions (are you?)? Are there any parents at all in the group you feel you could work together with? If so, personally invite them, as individuals (not as a group) to do something specific on the committee, keeping it positive of course. Especially seek out a Committee Chair because it is the CC, not the CM, who should be dealing with the daily hassles of running the pack. Then get everybody signed up for a training session so they know how things are supposed to work. Your UC or district exec. should be able to help you locate training sessions in your area. If there isn't one soon, ask the UC to do a special session at your pack's upcoming committee meeting night. Good luck, I'm sending positive thoughts your way! best, Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Ah that's just sad, I didn't realize that. I guess one way to check that would be to have den/pack work days where they have to have the standard issue kit to work on (we did this anyway but more to help boys/parents who lacked tools or know-how, not to prevent cheating). Still someone would get around it and it might be a mess to enforce. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Our pack and district derbies state quite explicitly that the only cars we will allow to race are ones that the boy/parent make together using the kit we provide (ie, the block of wood, wheels, axles, etc.). We specifically rule out the use of pre-cut bodies, polished axles & wheels, etc.. The only exception is that sometimes the wheels will include a nub on them that prevents them from turning properly and that may be removed. As far as I'm aware packs can set their own derby rules, though if your boys might be racing in your district/council race too, it would be smart to consider their rules as well. After witnessing carnage in 2 packs that had vague rules we set to work crafting clear rules and making sure parents knew what they were. Since then we've had far fewer problems, far more enjoyable race days. If there really are lots of folks in your pack who want to have an anything-goes race, why not have an "open class" as a follow up to the "regular" pinewood? Just don't mix the two! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Yes I'd agree, that's a major reason for higher dues. We've run into this in the past too. After making some changes we went from spending as much as $130/month to spending between $50-$70/month, for a pack of about 35 boys. Typically Sept/Oct (new scouts haven't earned a lot yet) and April/May (after our B&G and pinewood are done) are less expensive. The problems we faced with giving out a zillion patches were three-fold. 1. Boys seemed to develop an entitlement attitude to "getting" something at every pack meeting, regardless of whether they'd earned anything. Also they began to compare "how many" each boy got. This shifted the focus from the experiences they were supposed to be having, enjoying, and growing from, to the commodity. I whole-heartedly support giving any boy each and every recognition that he has earned but there should be some meaning behind an award, or it may very well devalue the award, program and participant. 2. Some parents push patches, etc. for their boy even though the boy probably couldn't care less. And some parents actually competed with each other over how many awards their boys had earned! Honestly, one wonders about parental motives occasionally. 3. It all just got too expensive. So the pack decided the following: 1. The pack awards one rocker segment related to the pack's monthly theme each month. If den leaders want to award additional ones, they can, but it should be related to something the den has actually done, only boys who actually participated in the activity should get the patch (ie, they had to be physically at the meeting), and it gets paid for out of the den's annual program money (each den gets an annual budget based on size and on fundraising success). 2. The pack pays for all beltloops/pins, webelos pins, rank advancements, world conservation award, leave no trace award, outdoor activity award, etc.. But if a boy loses them or decides to earn the same beltloop/pin multiple times we don't buy multiples. Parents are welcome to spring for replacements and duplicates if they choose. 3. Commemorative awards depend on the cost. For example, the 75th anniv. patches - these were great and we encouraged boys to earn them (there were 4 separate ones with requirements, plus a generic one with no requirements). However, they were darned expensive ($2.95 each I think?). We explained to parents that if the pack paid for all of these awards for all the boys we'd use up nearly all our fundraising profits just on that. So we bought the generic patch for all the boys as part of our 75th anniv. B&G celebration, but we asked parents to spring for the others if the boys were interested in earning them. 4. At our "graduation" in the early summer we usually award each boy a neckerchief for his next rank. For Webelos II we generally supply the BSA handbook at the B&G. All of this depends on fundraising success though. 5. At B&G we cut back on spending for food, decorations, and dessert. We went from having a fancy catered dinner to having a "finger food feast" last year. Most of the food was still purchased and brought in but really different from a full 3-5 course meal. Some packs do pot luck but we couldn't get agreement on that. The boys now make most of the decorations themselves leading up to the B&G. We also have a "macho cake bake" now so that's dessert. All of these changes were motivated by budget crunches, but they had the result of making our B&G more fun, more focused on the BOYS instead of the parents, and just a whole lot better. Only one parent complained and I'm pretty sure that particular person would complain about winning the lottery. The rest gave very positive feedback. 7. Finally AoL - we switched last year from buying really expensive awards/gifts to making the awards. We had 12 AoL boys in a pack of about 40 last year. For each, the webelos den leaders and a few other parents got together and made a really nice wood plaque shaped like the AoL itself. On each plaque we mounted a hand-painted arrow, with bands of different colored paint symbolizing the things the boys had done and awards earned over the years, and a small engraved plaque with their name, pack #, den symbol, and date. The wood and plaques were donated by local businesses. The arrows cost $30 for a box of 12. The paint we already had in our den boxes. So total cost, $30 for 12 great awards. And they are really beautifully made, solid, and will last forever. The boys were awe-struck, as were the other families in attendance. Sorry for long-ish post. I hope maybe your pack will find a useful idea or two for cutting expenses. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Whether he stays or goes, I would think a discussion with the boy about mis-using religion to get out of something he just doesn't feel like doing may be in order here too. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

In another thread there's a discussion of whether or not parents of webelos II should be expected to pay the full dues when the pack recharters. I thought it might be worth taking a separate look at what packs charge for dues in general, and what those dues cover. I've been in a pack that went back and forth about dues. Some years they were only about $25 (not incl. boys life), others they were as high as $60 (still not incl. boys life). This year they're $45, including boys life. For this year, given that $10 goes to national and $12 to boys life, this leaves the pack with $33/boy. Most packs around here are in the $30-$50 range but a few charge $10 and pay the entire thing to national and a few charge $60+ but tend to pay for day camp ($30/boy) with the extra money. What does your pack charge (and how does that compare with other packs in your region) and what does that money pay for? This is separate from fundraising. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

treasurermom, I feel for you and understand the difficulty you face. Be careful against making assumptions about what others can/can't afford though. It may be the case that this family wouldn't miss another $75 but then again, maybe not. They may have circumstances you aren't aware of. Even if they can afford it though, $75 is $75 and they're within their right to ask. Are there any people with boys in the Webelos II program on your committee? If so, how did they feel about this? If not, I wonder if they'd still vote against pro-rating if they had to pay $75 for 3 months of pack program, and then pay again when their boy joins a troop. AoL/B&G can be expensive. However given the way you're describing your budget situation I wonder if you're providing more glitz than you can afford? I've seen amazing B&Gs done for very little money. I've also seen very expensive ones where only the parents appreciated what was provided, it was totally above the boys' heads. One last thought, I know of a few packs who deal with the expense of webelos program (and yes, those pins/patches/beltloops, etc. add up) by setting aside a small amount of the dues the boys paid when they were wolves or bears. That money is then added to their webelos den when they get to that rank. The rationale used by these packs was that, per boy, it is usually cheaper to provide a program for the Tigers/Wolves/Bears than for the Webelos. Rather than asking current T/W/B families to subsidize the current Webelos they set it up so families help fund the webelos program their own boys will be in, a year or two down the road. Of course some boys drop out before webelos and others join as webelos but as long as you have a reasonably stable enrollment it seems to work ok. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

That's great! Congrats!

I'd look at that next town's troops more closely. Sounds like you may have an SM in your town's troop who isn't accustomed to having original thoughts (shudder). By the way, nothing states you have to attend events in your council or district. If you are within driving distance of another district or council, contact them and see what kind of Boy Scout and/or Webelos events they've got coming up between now and your B&G. If something sounds interesting, ask if it would be ok to attend, even just to watch. If you aren't told NO in resounding terms, also ask them to maybe hook you up with a solid troop that'll be there for the day. This is something we did with our Webelos guys, just to provide an additional opportunities for all the boys to fulfill the requirements. Turned out to be the highlight of the year and the council, district, and troop leaders we teamed up with were wonderful to us although they understood clearly that we were coming from a ways away and wouldn't ever be joining their troop/district/council. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Many packs pro-rate their dues for boys who join mid-way through the year and for graduating Webelos IIs. For this particular parent, I guess your level of flexibility depends on the following: 1. If you agree to some sort of reduction for him, how many other current W II boys will you need to do the same for, and specifically, how would that impact your pack's budget? 2. Do you want to have a disgruntled family leaving the pack? Depending on your recruiting situation it might be better long term to try to accomodate this person's request if it can be done in a reasonable manner. 3. Could the boy actually join a troop right now and would that be a good thing for him? Assuming he has met the basic requirements (10 yo and AoL or 11+yo I think, but double check the webelos book to be sure), you'd probably also want to talk with the parent and the prospective SM. Some boys are probably as ready in Nov. as they will be in the spring when you do your B&G. Others mature a lot during those intervening months and probably would struggle even more if they joined early. Some are more concerned about staying with their class-aged peers than others, too. Depends on the boy, the family, the troop. Having him leave the pack in Dec. and then come back in April for the cross over doesn't seem right. If he wants to stay, he should pay something in dues (though perhaps not full rate). If he has his AOL completed and wants to join a troop now, great but then he's not a Cub Scout anymore. Maybe he can come back with the troop to help at the cross-over, but from the troop's side of things. Good luck with this one. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Anarchist, please stop sending me any more nasty messages to my private email account. Whatever you have to say should be said on the public board or not at all. And let's keep things on topic please. This is the last time I will respond to you on this topic because I didn't join this board to engage in personal argument with you or anyone else. However, let me point out that a) of course I have things to learn about boy scouts - that's why I sought out this forum and have been asking a bunch of questions about what other troops do. As I've clearly stated several times, 4 of my 5 years of experience are in CUB scouting. However, that doesn't mean I am completely ignorant about everything in the boy scout program. I find your response in this thread and elsewhere to be very condescending although perhaps you didn't intend for it to come across that way. b) Woodbadge has nothing to do with this - woodbadge is not designed to teach participants specifically about boy scouts; it is designed to teach participants to be excellent Scouters, regardless of what program they fall into (Cubs, Venture, and Varsity are also part of the focus of the BSA, not just Boy Scouts). I'm not sure why you felt the need to insert that comment. I appreciate an exchange of views and you're welcome to disagree with me. However I am not about to get into exchanges of nasty emails or personal attacks and I appreciate it if you will likewise refrain from doing so. It isn't "scout-like." Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Just out of curiousity, would people include attending summer camp as a provisional scout toward the "active" requirement (or for the "participate in x-number of troop/patrol activities" for tenderfoot/2nd/1st Class)? While there one is a member of a provo troop, it just isn't one's home troop. My son did that last summer because he couldn't attend camp with his own troop. It hasn't been a problem in terms of how his troop interprets this and anyway he has, by pretty much any reasonable definition, fulfilled the activity requirements, but I'm interested to hear what others think. Provo camp, a troop activity or not? Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!