Lisabob

Beaver, We recently had a discussion with our CO and district exec. about the meeting space requirement.(CO has never had an appropriate space for us to use, but they've chartered this troop for over 60 years and want to continue). The DE indicated that this meeting space requirement only means that the CO is supposed to either a) physically provide a space or b) help the unit locate a space. The DE said this does not mean the space provided has to be extraordinarily well suited to the scout unit, nor does it mean the CO has to do the leg work for the unit in terms of finding a meeting place. This is no doubt a minimalist interpretation but given that many CO's seem to be pretty "hands off" (as ours is) I'm guessing it isn't an uncommon interpretation. Under this view, the church CO that mbscoutmom is dealing with has technically met its obligation by providing a space. So in terms of pushing this issue w/ the CO, it might be a good idea to talk to the DE first and see how they interpret this policy in that particular district. It wouldn't do for a unit to request the CO step up to the plate a little more, only to have the DE follow that with a minimalist interpretation like the one above. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

mbscoutmom, Check with other service organizations in your town as well as your public school system and other churches to see about finding a new meeting place. One pack around here is sponsored by a church but meets at a public school because of the lack of appropriate space over at the church. In another pack that is sponsored by a public school PTO, one of the dens meets at a local church and another den meets at a different public school, because that's where they could find an open room on the days/times they wanted to meet. My son's troop is chartered by one service club, holds its troop meetings at a public middle school, and has committee meetings in the basement of another service club's building. When my husband and I were DLs we tried to avoid holding den meetings in our home where possible too. Some living situations just do not lend themselves to hosting a herd of youngsters on a weekly basis. We didn't usually find it difficult to locate a more appropriate meeting location; it may just take you a few extra phone calls. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Ah, this is what I love about this board. Dan, you'll be happy to here that the Wendy's down the street from me is advertizing the mushroom swiss burger on its sign today! Here are some of the pack level tweaks I've seen, some more ok than others in my view. Tweak One: Parental involvement in den meetings beyond Tigers After Tigers, parents aren't required to attend den meetings, but I know several den leaders who make it clear that they expect parents to attend anyway, at least the vast majority of the time. A few other DLs I've met discourage parents from "hanging out" at den meetings. I'm ok with this either way, as long as the basic YPT protections are observed and the boys, parents, and leaders are comfortable with how things are going. My personal preference is to have parents attend (and help) though, particularly with the younger dens. Tweak Two: Pack Meeting Structure/Format My son joined a pack that has a history of holding "traditional" pack meetings every other month, and "alternate" meetings (field trips, camping, overnighters, etc.) the opposite months. In most cases the basic components of a pack meeting were built in, but the look and feel of the alternate meetings was quite different. This is a long-standing tradition for this pack and it seems to work for them. Boys, parents, leaders like it and after a while I became convinced that the pack was equally able to promote the ideals, values, and purposes of Cub Scouting this way. Maybe even better than a more rigid approach, as attendance was always, always high at the pack meetings (both types) and to my knowledge nobody ever uttered the "b(oring)" word about this pack's monthly meetings. It certainly distinguishes them from other packs in the area, who hold only traditional-style pack meetings. I saw this as a tweak. Others (outside the pack - ie, some district training/RT staff) saw it as abandoning the BSA format for pack meetings every other month. Tweak Three: BALOO. When is it required and when isn't it? I have gone round and round with some folks about this. (here's a link to one council's description of BALOO requirements: http://www.gpc-bsa.org/Programs/Training/Baloo.asp). My own DE informed me that(his view, based on a statement such as the above link) a BALOO-trained person does not need to actually be present for the entire cub camping experience; all they need to do is be listed on the tour permit and attend *at least part* of the event. Further, some district professionals have asserted that the BALOO requirement applies primarily to camping and not to other types of sleep overs like museum/zoo sleepovers or lock ins. This is not my interpretation at all. Our pack always chose the most cautious interpretation (BALOO-trained leaders present the whole time at any overnight function, anywhere) but I know other packs who regularly choose the most liberal interpretation because they're stretched thin on BALOO-trained adult leadership and don't want to cancel events. I don't like this one. This is a safety thing and an insurance thing in my book, not to be "tweaked." Also I suspect my DE might beat a hasty retreat from his interpretation if something happened after the designated BALOO person had already gone home. Tweak Four: Leaders serving multiple positions, like CM/DL or CC/DL. This shouldn't happen but it does all the time. I understand why this isn't supposed to occur but if the other option is not to staff these vital positions, well, I can see why people "tweak". Unlike the BALOO situation, I don't think this is likely to cause an immediate safety concern - this is more of a long term leadership development issue. This seems to be less of a problem within troops, where the line between committee and ASM/SM positions is more clearly drawn - not sure exactly why that's the case, but I guess that's a positive thing. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

If your pack has a bridge you use at B&G for cross over, what kind of shape is it in? Maybe it needs some work. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Right, but ultimately the buck stops with the CC and the committee. It certainly would be poor judgment to exclude the CM from planning, etc., since the CM is expected to carry out the program though. Scoutnut, I suspect we're pretty much saying the same thing - my point was just that the CM is not supposed to be "running" the pack - that's not what the job is about, although that's what a lot of CMs seem to do (or in some cases, seem to want to do). Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Let's talk about the role of the CM, CM's unregistered husband, Committee Chair, adn the rest of the committee. First, the CM is supposed to be a sort of "master of ceremonies" who runs the monthly pack meeting. That's it. The pack program should already be arranged by the committee (including all the planning and logistics) so that all the CM needs to do is show up. And the CM should be willing to get goofy with the kids. One person explained the CM's role to me once as "the clown in chief." Second, the CM's husband. Sounds like he is excited about helping. Great. The committee needs to get him registered though, or else politely explain that he can't be a leader. Why doesn't he want to register? All he needs to do is fill out a form, which isn't hard. The top reasons I've heard from adults who didn't want to register were: 1. They want to know why they have to provide their SSN. My Answer: The SSN is only used for the mandatory BSA background check. It is not kept on file by anyone in the pack. Council office keeps the adult registration forms on file, but only the paid professional staff (not volunteers) have access to them at the Council level. 2. They are embarrassed about some "youthful indiscretion" that's on their legal record, like underage drinking or traffic incidents. My Answer: Those kinds of things are unlikely to raise a red flag in the BSA background check process, unless they are both recent and repeat occurrences. BSA is much more worried about people who really should not be working with children based on child welfare/abuse convictions, or serious criminal backgrounds. Also: In most cases, adult applications are only reviewed by a couple of people on the committee, who are required to sign off on the applications before turning them in to council - they are not widely disseminated among the pack leadership. So whatever you write down is not going to be spread around. 3. They have some much more serious problem on their record, which probably ought to preclude them from being a leader (this is rare, but I've seen it happen). The answer here depends a little bit on the problem they have and in some cases there's not much the committee can do except politely decline the person's offer to help and then keep a very close eye on them at future meetings. But like I said, this isn't a common situation. 4.They don't seem to have a reason, they just don't want to register. My Answer: Wouldn't you feel better knowing that the people who are responsible for your son's program are registered leaders? Don't you want to know your child is safe when he's at meetings run by other adults? Well so does everybody else, so you need to register too. Basically, too bad, get over it, or don't be a leader. If, after all of this, he still won't register, well then, the committee has every right (and I'd say obligation) to make it clear that he is not a leader, he cannot speak for the pack or otherwise make pack decisions, he doesn't get a vote at committee meetings, and his interaction with the boys during meetings is limited to whatever the other non-leader parents are expected to do. The fact that his wife is the CM has nothing to do with it. If the committee lets him continue as an unregistered leader and some accident occurs at a pack or den meeting where you need your pack insurance, the pack may find themselves up the proverbial creek. Pack insurance only covers the pack if you follow the BSA rules - and one of those is that leaders should be registered. I hate to lean on this sort of argument, but this is reality. Also you mentioned his "very unique way of doing things." Is this a polite way of saying the guy is a jerk who no one can stand to work with? Or do you just mean he's a little quirky? Third, the CC and the committee. When you say the CC, "hardly any" committee members, the CM, and 2 den leaders are the only ones who regularly attend meetings, are you talking about den meetings, pack meetings, or committee meetings? What committee positions do you have filled and active? Have these people been to training? (Have you? Has your CM?) Maybe people are reluctant to be active committee members either because they don't know what they are committing to do, or because they're overwhelmed and don't have the tools they need to do the job. In both cases, training is helpful. You mention that the pack is spread out over 3 towns. Is part of the problem with attendance at meetings that people just have to travel too far and it is inconvenient/difficult? Or is it more that they're not showing up because they just aren't that interested? If the former, then maybe it does make sense to split into two or three separate packs (but the entire leadership ought to have a serious discussion with the district staff first about how to make this work). If the latter, then splitting probably won't make things any better and may in fact make them worse because you'll have a smaller group of adults to draw from. I've been in your shoes with packs that had leadership difficulties so I know it can be stressful. One of the easiest things you can do (if you haven't already) is push everyone to get fully trained for their position. That should help people figure out what they are (and aren't) supposed to be doing. Once a core group of leaders "gets it" and the program is on track, then it isn't as hard to recruit new adults because getting involved won't seem so overwhelming, either. Keep us posted on how things are working out! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Eamonn, SWScouter, I agree with you completely that the basic skills need to be taught and it seems that they are not being covered adequately in some cases. And you're right that there are many activities which will be "off limits" (or at least, not fun) for people who lack the appropriate skills. And Eamonn, I'm not generally in favor of teaching youth leadership as just a mini-version of adult leadership classes. Your son's response says it all - boring. But...what to do with the many adult scouters I've met, who may already have pretty solid "scout skills," whose hearts are in the right place, and who want to share that knowledge with a group of kids, and yet, who seem to lack any clue about organizational behavior, program planning, and leadership themselves? Their weaknesses in these areas seem to me to be getting in the way of building a good program and teaching those scout skills that we all want the boys to learn. I hope these folks are in the distinct minority, but I gotta say, that's not my experience, either at the pack or troop level. This is where I think the current WB is useful. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Scoutnut writes: Ahhh - Lisa, you haven't read the Insigna Guide or the Uniform Inspection Sheet lately have you? : Per the Uniform Inspection Sheet (because I can directly copy a quote & not have to hunt it down) : "Webelos Scouts wear only current badge of rank (Bobcat,Wolf, Bear, or Webelos badge) centered on (left) pocket." --------------------------------------------------- Guilty as charged (hangs head). Don't know how I missed that. Anyway that's what we had been doing so I guess our instincts were good at least. Thanks for clarifying. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

This is one thing all the boys in my son's webelos den commented on at one time or another as we did more things with area troops. "How come their uniforms are so booooooring????" Along with mourning the end of the blue shirts with all their hard-earned rank advancements, they noticed the absence of the patch-covered red vests. Boy Scout Merit badge sashes, which are displayed infrequently, were small consolation to them. On the other hand, parents seemed happy enough with the switch to tan shirts and fewer adornments - less sewing! Personally I like that the boys can wear either blue or tan as webelos. A lot of parents that I know would be reluctant to buy a new blue shirt for their (growing!) 5th grade son, given that he'd need a tan one in just a few months anyway. For the same reason I like that the Tigers wear the blue shirts now - they'll get more use out of it than when they had separate shirts for tigers vs. everyone else. Besides, the tigers seem to love wearing the uniform - might as well capitalize on that while they're young! And no, I have never seen anywhere what new webelos boys in tan shirts who earn the bobcat are supposed to do with it! Our informal decision was to let them wear it on the tan shirt until they earned the webelos badge, and then they would replace it with the webelos badge. That's probably wrong but nobody I've asked has been able to provide the definitive right answer; everybody seems to have their own make-shift approach here. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I wonder if anybody else has run into this and if so, how they've addressed it? A couple of the major industrial employers in our area offer donations to non-profit groups where an employee volunteers for x-number of hours in a given year. Scout units are frequent recipients of these donations. This year several pack leaders have fulfilled the requirements for these donations. However, the pack has run into a problem because the companies will only donate the money if the pack can provide a 501c3 ID #. Apparently, typical scout units piggy back off their CO's ID # (so the pack has been told by the companies who are offering the donation, anyway). In this case, the pack is sponsored by a public school PTO, which does not have a 501c3 number. Both the school district's business office and BSA Council folks have indicated that although the PTO itself has tax exempt status, because it is affiliated with a public school, it is not and cannot be registered as a 501c3 organization (public schools are inherently not for profit and are not included under the law establishing 501c3 organizations). Consequently, the companies offering the donations have declined to provide them directly to the pack, or to the pack's PTO CO partner. They have offered to direct the donation to Council, with the understanding that the council office would forward the money directly to the pack. However, the Council says no, any money it receives belongs to the Council alone, and won't be forwarded to the pack in any way (even to pay for council programs like day camp). At this point, I'm not sure what to suggest to the pack's leaders. The pack doesn't currently have any parents who are attorneys or accountants who might be able to clarify things. The companies have money they want to donate to the pack, but they'll only give it to a 501c3 organization. Council has been, shall we say, "inflexible" although I'm sure they have their reasons. Is there another way around this, or is the pack in a position where it has to turn down a fair chunk of money that they could really use, based on a technicality? Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Ed writes: "It seems if the Scouts don't use the skills they are taught, they forget!" Well sure Ed, and how good are you with a manual typewriter these days? (me, I'm hopeless. Thank goodness for spell checkers and that backspace key!) I like your "knot of the night" idea though. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Eamonn, that's sad re: the knot situation. Hopefully the SM is now embarrassed enough that he'll do something about it. At both the Cub level and over the last year observing at the troop level, I've seen a lot of adult leaders who were highly competent in terms of scout skills, but who lacked the organizational, inter-personal, or leadership capacity to translate those skills into a successful program. We have many training opportunities that focus on building scout skill (though I'm all in favor of having more of them, too). In the current BSA training continuum, leadership skills are only covered in any kind of depth at WB. When I went through WB a couple of years ago, probably 70% of the participants said they were either trying to start a new unit, or rebuild an older unit that had imploded or just grown stale. In those situations, learning to lead change, deal with difficult people, and develop a shared plan of action is probably more immediately useful than knowing how to tie a certain kind of knot. Ideally we'd have (or develop) leaders who excel at both types of skills. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I've had the same problem getting new cub leaders trained. In part this was a logistics issue but in part it was a matter of "culture." By the time they get to boy scouts, most parents have at least a passing acquaintance with BSA, while many new leaders in the cub program are brand new to the entire organization. So troop leaders are probably already "on board" and more willing to go to training. Some things that seem to work around here: 1. offer a variety of times/days for NLE. Parents of young kids might find it harder to take an entire Saturday or Sunday off but they may be willing to attend an evening session. Maybe even offer kid-sitting for the youngsters, depending on how brave you're feeling and how much help you'll have. 2. Location. Make it as convenient to get to as possible, and/or offer NLE in several locations around the district. (something I wish our district and council did a better job of!) 3. Publicity - don't just rely on district or council channels, which new leaders won't be acquainted with until too late. If packs do a round up in Aug/Sept, new leaders are just getting off the ground in Sept/Oct, it might be Nov. before they even know training exists and then it could be too late to schedule it. (esp. as committee members, where their involvement and interaction w/ council could be limited at first). If you have good Unit Commissioners then they should help promote training. Otherwise, if you have some experienced and active cub leaders, you can ask them to help you promote training in their area. 4. If certain units are chronically under-trained, and you have the staff to do it, offer to do an NLE session at upcoming committee meetings for them. Then they have no excuse and might actually get themselves to training! Good luck! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

One question I remember had to do with naming 4 of the beltloops. The "new" beltloops were not included in the list of acceptable answers. CD therefore denied their existence. (astronomy, geography, several others - I'd have to look up which other ones are newer but I think there were 6 or 8 og them.) There were a couple of other questions too, I just remember this one in particular because we had some fun awarding the "phantom beltloops" to the WB staff the following weekend. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Eagledadx3 I think you're right that we need to focus on keeping existing leaders happy. With that in mind I've been thinking about why I volunteered to start with and why I've stayed involved, and why, recently, I have considered leaving more frequently than in the past (ie, what's changed?) I started out as just a parent. Not that I was unwilling to lend a hand at den meetings and pack fundraisers, etc., but I never intended to be a leader. I agreed to be a leader after a nasty adult blow out left our den without a leader, our pack without a CM, and the committee with a lot of holes. Really it was self interest. Either we were going to do it or nobody would and my son wouldn't have a program. My husband agreed to be a den leader, I got involved with the committee. We convinced a friend in the pack to step up as CM. The first year was very stressful as we started re-building the leadership and the program. People outside of scouting kept asking why I would do this. I became increasingly involved because I discovered I really enjoyed working with the boys. And it gave us a wonderful opportunity to share some neat experiences with our son. And I ended up becoming friends with many of the other leaders and parents beyond just scouting. As the pack regrouped, things began to be a lot of fun again and we provided what I think was an awesome program. So: to serve the youth, to support the program, to reap personal benefits in terms of stronger family and community ties. In the last year my son has moved from cub scouts to boy scouts. I now have a committee position with the troop and have worked on a couple of district projects. I probably won't quit, but this thread has made me think more about the big picture. What's changed? 1. District jobs seem to be more about district politics and bean counting than about serving the youth, or for that matter, serving the unit leaders. 2. District leaders haven't been forthcoming about expectations. Twice now I've agreed to specific tasks, believing I understood exactly what the job entailed, only to discover part way through that I was also expected to do a bunch of other things that hadn't been mentioned in the initial job outline. If I had known at the outset, I would have said "no" because I am truly unable to meet some of these expectations (conflicting time commitments for the most part, and I can hardly quit my job). I get the feeling that's why they didn't tell me about certain expectations up front. I'm not one to quit part-way through, but it makes me reluctant to volunteer for future district projects. 3. For all their talk about welcoming new families, the troop does a poor job of this. Partly this is due to the fact that they have a very robust adult leader cadre already (last troop meeting, 18 adult leaders and 14 boys attended) and really do not have a lot of open positions to fill. I'm on the committee but I don't have any particular task other than being a warm body. They just really don't seem to need new leaders. So it isn't about contributing to the greater good or to the unit-level program. 4. Most of the troop leaders are long-time members with boys who are either aged out of the program, or who have been with the troop for at least 3 years. Their willingness to volunteer so much of their time is to be admired. But, these adult leaders know each other well and - I'm sure unintentionally - tend to get "clique-y." I'm not shy and I don't think I normally lack social skills either but after nearly a year of trying to be fairly actively involved, I still wouldn't consider a single one of these people as anything more than a familiar face. New parents with questions or concerns tend to get a very stand-offish response ("well this is just the way it's done" rather than "Let me explain what we're doing and why we do it this way"). I'm sure it is unintentional but it rubs new parents the wrong way and makes them feel unwelcome. So it surely isn't about camaraderie at this point. 5. Existing troop leaders don't seem too open to new ideas. Now for the most part I think they do a good job. But, there are some areas where I believe things could be improved and I could/would help do it - if they were interested, which they're not. Specifically I think they could benefit from reviewing their webelos-scout plan and new family orientation. There's an age gap of about 3 years between the first year scouts and most of the rest of the troop. And if this year is an indicator of how things typically go, I can see why they have a high attrition rate among first year scouts/families. The adult leadership have not done a very good job of communicating with new families regarding how the troop works or what the expectations are for the parents and the boys. But there's no interest in changing anything - in fact, there seems to be some denial here. I'm sorry to see a lot of these families and their sons leave scouting, but since this is an area the existing leadership doesn't wish to address there's not a whole lot I can do. So it isn't about serving youth either. For me right now it is not about supporting the program, serving youth, or personal benefits. So why am I still there? Mainly because if I quit, I think my son would too (I've seen this happen, when parents lose interest, their boys usually fade out too). I still believe in the program and what it has to offer our young men in general, my guy in particular. That's a good enough reason.

Honestly I don't think very many of them would subscribe, though I guess I could be wrong. I'm just thinking of my 11 yo scout and whether he'd use what you are describing (or whether I'd let him). If I could get him to keep a calendar of any kind - let alone a web based one - I'd be overjoyed. This isn't a priority for him. He's young, but still, most of his homework doesn't require access to a web site and he does most of it at home - where we have a computer with word processing capabilities already. And I wouldn't be excited about him doing his homework "from anywhere" online while surfing the web, blogging, chatting, etc... Too many distractions. This isn't something I'd pay to enable at any rate. I also wouldn't pay for my child to have special access to email, blogs, chat, etc. based on an appeal to his membership in scouts. I already have all that if I want it, and assuming I agree to let him (which at this point is a big assumption), he can access those same services and his own account through my existing ISP at no additional cost to me. Finally I don't know how I'd feel about him having his own fund raising page, either with or without explicit use of scout symbols on the page. He's 11. Who exactly is he going to be getting donations from? If it is people we already know (relatives, friends) we don't need the web. If it is anonymous donors from who-knows-where I might very well become the overprotective parent and want to know why they're donating money to my 11 yo and what else (given the blog, chat, photo features you mentioned) they have in mind. Other people may have a different take but my observation so far is that the majority of really active scouts are between the ages of about 11-15. So you're really talking about targeting preteens/early teens here and that means you would need to sell this idea to their parents, who would end up footing the bill. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't pay for it myself. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I bought a set from our council scout shop about two years ago. So yes, they're "out there." Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Huntr, Let the other pack have her. You seem to have done everything that might be reasonably expected to accomodate her. Hopefully she'll find a better match there (though I rather doubt it, based on your description) and your life will be that much less stressful. By the way - have you tried getting a den chief? Den chiefs are usually pretty good at helping run games. Can be wonderful if you have "adult" stuff to deal with for a short part of the meeting but don't want a bunch of boys running around like crazies either. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I'm not on the BSA legal staff but I'd sure be shocked if they said yes. Given that scout units are not allowed to use the uniform or other BSA symbols to imply support for fund raising without specific permission from their council to do so, I'm guessing BSA would be less than excited about a private company helping individual scouts (not units) raise money by using a part of the uniform (mb sash). Doubly so because the private company would also make money from the venture. Javaco, you may want to get hold of the unit money-earning application that troops/packs/crews/teams are required to submit for any fundraising. The guidelines for units are listed on the back of the form. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Looking at the requirements on the USScouts.org page, I notice that the Scout rank is listed as follows: "Boy Scout Joining Requirements (Scout Badge)" . All the other ranks are listed as "xyz Rank" www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsranks.html Also, unlike each of the other ranks, there are no "alternative" requirements for the scout badge listed. And, as has been pointed out, the requirements are quite simple. This leads me to believe the scout badge is intended to be given very quickly to new boys, though of course they should fulfill the requirements as listed first. With the exception of requirement #9 which must be done w/ a parent/guardian, I imagine most boys could earn it by the end of their second troop meeting, if given an opportunity to do so. Fishsqueezer, one of the things you'll probably find out pretty quickly is that district staff seldom spend much time looking over unit leaders' shoulders unless there's a major problem in the unit. Or at least, that's my experience. And I too have run into numerous district folks who are sure they - and only they - know the received truth, regardless of whatever is in the actual BSA material. In those cases, chances are good that just quietly following the book will be more effective than locking horns with the district guy, especially since you've already gotten the "buzz off" statement from him. Of course it pays to be open to the possibility that the district guy is right too, and double check the actual policy.

OK I gave my copy of the Cub Leader Handbook to a new leader so I can't go back and find this right now. Mark, does the book suggest that the PT do this new leader training in place of Cub Leader Specific Training? Do districts then count the new leaders as 100% trained for purposes of quality unit, etc.? I definitely did a lot of training for new leaders but I viewed it as supplemental to the NLE and CLST courses offered by our district. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Really? The PT was designed to do NLE and Leader Specific within the pack? That's definitely not how it was portrayed to me! My frst thought is, that would be much more convenient. We're situated at the far end of our district and council and training nearly always takes place at least an hour drive away from here (often further). I've often thought it is ironic because despite our location on the geographic fringe, we're also the fastest growing part of the district/council. Second thought though: if packs could do all their training in-house they would never get to know anybody outside the pack. Plus sometimes it can be helpful to have trainers who are outsiders "enlighten" errant leaders about what BSA policy is, rather than have someone who is close to the situation like a PT would be try to do that. So I guess I'd be less worried about PTs "not doing it right" and more worried about further isolating pack leaders from the local scouter network. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

scoutldr, your comment about long-time leaders promoting their agendas at training rather than actually presenting the material made me grimace. I've been on the receiving end of that more than once! For cub leaders, add to it that half the time (in my experience anyway), folks on the training staff haven't stayed current with the Cub program and end up spreading mis-information as a result. Very annoying. So maybe another reason people quit - eager new leaders who go to training expecting actual help/correct information and get garbage instead, become disillusioned and frustrated. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Good question Eamonn. Here's my top-five list: 1. Frustration with poorly run programs. 2. Insufficient training to run the program properly. 3. A poor fit between a volunteer's available time/expertise and the job they're asked to do. 4. Lack of real help from district/council staff who tend to either vanish when things really get rough or tell endless stories that aren't that helpful. 5. The "insider club." I've met veteran scouters who were quite welcoming to newcomers and open to different ways of thinking - wonderful people on all levels. I've also met a fair few who seem to see scouting as their personal club, don't make new people feel welcome, and apparently haven't considered an original thought in decades. Doubly problematic for women in some scout communities. Double again outside of the Cub program. I've thought about quitting for each of the above reasons at various times in the last 5 years. But then I'm too stubborn for that (well ok, "pig-headed" is another term I've heard on occasion). Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Service projects in the last 6 months or so: help direct participants in a charity walk/run help staff a party for disabled youth memorial day parade beachfront clean up at state park help conservation society plant cover for ground nesting birds served up the ice cream at a local elem. school's "welcome back to school" ice cream social