Lisabob

What's your take on former cub leaders returning to pack leadership after their boys have moved on to boy scouts? Good idea? Or not? What pitfalls and/or advantages are there to consider before agreeing or declining to return as a pack leader? Are there conditions that should be attached to such an invitation, or to its acceptance? Yes, I have a specific situation in mind but I'd appreciate your hypothetical comments for now. Thanks. Lisa'bob

By the way when you get adults who complain that "this is a pack tradition" you should ask them whose tradition it is, exactly? You mention that the song has been around at least 7 years in this pack...no boy is a cub scout for that long so it must be the adults who are perpetuating this tradition for their own reasons. But cubs is for and about boys, not adults. Chances are good that the boys really won't mind giving this up as long as some other fun (and appropriate) song is substituted. In fact they'll probably hardly notice unless the adults make a big deal over it. Lisa'bob

Although we sang the short version at camp when I was a kid and it was pretty harmless, I'm not too excited about some of the lyrics in this longer version. I think it crosses the line between harmless fun and rudeness and goodness knows kids have enough exposure to rudeness and put downs as it is without needing to learn it at cub scouts too. If you want some songs to "get the wiggles out" there are lots and lots of these out there that don't wander into the realm of questionable taste or poor manners. Boom Chicka Boom is a good example of one that cubs inevitably love to sing. Among other places to find good songs: Check out MacScouter.com and click on the "Songs" link, and sign up for your council's next University of Scouting/Pow Wow . Lisa'bob

Ugh. I hope this guy doesn't do anything to cause a scene at your pinewood tomorrow. If he is NOT the CC then who is (in name, if not in fact - who is on the recharter paperwork)? This is one of the few positions that you actually must have filled to have a viable pack. If he is NOT the CC, then he has absolutely no authority to start trying to oust existing leaders (not that he would have a lot of authority to do this as CC, but at least he'd have some). How's he doing as a DL? Personally I can't imagine too many situations in which someone who yells at the boys for not being quiet could be successful with a bunch of Tigers. So this brings me to this question: Why are you all keeping this guy on as a leader?? I'm with Scoutnut, he sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Rather than allowing this one person to cause an uproar and potentially result in a rift with your COR, why not impress upon him that either he follow the program, get training, and learn to play well with others, or else he will have to step down as any kind of pack leader. And if he refuses, he can be removed and replaced with the help of your official Committee Chair. I don't envy you - this doesn't sound like a fun situation - but the sooner you guys address this person and put an end to the chaos he alone is causing in your pack (based on your description), the better off you'll all be. Incidentally, given everything you have posted about this person, I'd be sceptical about taking his claim that the COR is willing to pull the rug out from under you unless you fire the current CM and ACM. Although this may be true, it sounds to me like this guy is a little off the deep end and his perception of what the COR is willing to do may be all wrong. Or he could be making the entire thing up. Point is, some other leaders in your pack need to contact the COR for a rational discussion rather than take this guy's word - or rather than letting him represent you to the COR, if in fact he really has talked with them. Lisa'bob

Where do the CM and the ACM fit into this picture? Have they been trained? Are they actually doing their jobs? The Committee Chair does in fact have a lot of power, but not unlimted power. This CC appears to think otherwise and needs to be reined in (and perhaps replaced but perhaps not). Do you have a unit commissioner? (if your answer is no, or "what is a UC?" then you should contact your district leaders and ask them about it - every unit is supposed to have a UC assigned to them). If so, this is a good place for him or her to provide a little insight to the committee as a whole. Perhaps, in doing so, a messy confrontation involving the COR could be avoided. In some cases CORs are highly visible and active with their units but it seems like it is more often hte case that the COR really doesn't want much to do with the units they charter, and would certainly prefer not to wade into a messy leadership battle if it is possible to avoid it. Among other things - your UC may be in a position, as an outside "friend" to the unit but not a member of it, to tell the CC that in most cases it isn't appropriate to wear his military uniform to a scout event. BSA studiously avoids looking or acting like a military or paramilitary organization. Your CC is rightfully proud of his military background, but there are better ways for him to honor that background than wearing his military uniform to scout events. Lisa'bob

jd says: A sink or swim attitude toward winter camping is dangerous and worth getting angry! Yeah, well "momma bear" has emerged once or twice (or more) in reference to this issue, believe me. jd, I don't have any intention of letting a troop off the hook for failing to prepare their new scouts for winter camping. Among other things, I think THE TROOP should've been pushing to come to one of my webelos den meetings to do this. After all, the troop leaders surely knew that winter camping requires special preparations and they should've considered that their soon-to-be new scouts would need some training. So they could've been more pro-active here too and as the more knowledgable party (I don't know any cub packs who do winter camping - with good reason), perhaps the bulk of the responsibility does belong to the troop. However, I really see this as BOTH a troop AND a W2 issue, given that (where I live at least, and unless global warming speeds way up) it is inevitable that the first couple of camp outs after the boys cross over will be cold weather camp outs. After all, one of the major purposes of the webelos program is to help prepare the boys for boy scouting, right? As a WDL, I tried to do whatever I could to live up to that goal and in hindsight, this is one fairly simple thing that I neglected due to my own lack of experience with winter camping. Another way to approach this is to think about the webelos-scout transition program. Getting W2 boys ready for their first troop campout seems like a natural opportunity to make the transition smoother and build the relationship between the troop and pack. So I don't see this so much as a pothole, as an opportunity that could be beneficial to the troop, the pack, the leaders, the parents, the boys - everybody. Lisa'bob

Agreed, tickets vary widely and what might be accepted by one CD and troop guide might not be by another. I think it depends a little on the unit's circumstances too though, to a certain extent. One of my tickets was to develop a leader's resource book with information on places and programs within a 30 mile radius of our town, related to 20 beltloops and 10 webelos pins. It just seemed to me that because turnover among leaders is fairly high in cubs, that people were spending way too much time re-inventing the wheel on this kind of thing. The resource book is now being provided to all new leaders in at least three local packs so I'd like to think it is useful. I don't quite understand the secrecy that shrouds WB either. Before I took it, there were people who acted like it was some kind of secret club - which it is not - and would only tell me that I'd "understand more when I'd been through it." This was not a good sales strategy in my view. Even less effective if the goal is to get a whole lot of leaders to attend WB, as seems to be the case these days. When prospective WB'ers ask me, I'm happy to share a fair amount of detail with them, if that's what they're looking for. I figure if they know what they're signing up for, they might be more likely to do it. I don't think that this diminishes the experience in any way. Lisa'bob

Scoutldr, I couldn't agree more that the way things actually worked out was not desirable at all. The idea of pushing cross over back to late spring is something the other WDL and I seriously considered, but for a variety of reasons (worthy of their own thread) we decided not to go that route. Fact is, nearly all packs/troops in my area do their cross-overs in Feb or early March, and the weather can be counted on to be lousy through mid-late April. We've even had snow in mid-late May some years. Rather than telling the boys they can't go on the first two or three campouts with their new troop, I'd prefer to teach them how to prepare so that they can have a successful and fun experience. On the other hand, I've heard from some adults that "after the first time, the boys will figure out pretty quickly what they need for winter camping." This is not a view I support at all because, while it may be true for some boys, others will simply "figure out" that they don't like winter camping, and they just won't go next time or even worse, they'll quit scouts after their first really lousy camping experience. Although I don't think my son's troop did a particularly good job of training the new scouts to prep. for winter camping after cross-over last year (something we've been working to improve this year), even if they had a better training effort, as a parent it still would've been helpful to me to have gotten some of the info a little earlier on. For example: my son lacked the preferred type of long underwear and had only cotton waffle weave stuff - fine for playing in the snow for a couple hours, but poor for camping. After cross-over we had about 3 days prior to his first campout in which to try and find suitable long underwear and in late Feb., the stores weren't carrying much of that stuff any more. If I'd known in mid January that he needed those, I could've found them in the stores or ordered on line, or arranged to borrow a pair from someone, etc.. Same with appropriate sleeping bags and other gear. Given the realities on the ground then, and depending on your location, weather, troop camping plans, etc., my point is that many of us need to think a little further ahead and do some training with our W II scouts BEFORE they cross over. I really wish I had done so when I was still a WDL at this time last year. Maybe this would be a good topic for a den chief to cover with the boys, for those who have one. At the same time, I'd have invited an ASM to come and talk separately with the parents so s/he could have answered questions about cost, etc. that a boy might be less equipped to answer. Lisa'bob

There's a great thread in the camping section (under equipment reviews) about keeping warm while camping in winter. I decided to spin off into the cub forum because cross-over time is coming up for a lot of webelos II boys, many of whom probably have no experience with winter camping. What's one of the first things they'll do with their new troop?...Go winter camping! Last year when my son crossed over (late February) he went camping a week later. Temps were in the single digits. He had no idea how to stay warm and neither he nor I knew enough about proper gear. He froze, was miserable, never wanted to do it again. NOT a good first boy scout experience! In fact a couple of boys who crossed over with him quit immediately after that campout - what a shame. So, in hindsight, I wish I had set up a webelos den meeting (or two) where some scouts and leaders from the troop had come and taught the webelos & parents a little bit about winter camping, BEFORE cross-over time. Especially, I'd have asked them to bring examples of gear - what to look for, what to avoid, etc.. Webelos Den Leaders, although you may not be camping with your cub scouts, I really encourage you to share the info in the related thread with your den's parents and boys (maybe in a condensed version), and to talk about this with the troops that your boys will be joining. Lisa'bob

You guys are a gold mine of information. I shared several of these posts with my 11 yo, who is getting ready for a late January camp. Hopefully he'll actually remember to do a few more of these things and share the info with his patrol mates too. All the tips here would've been so helpful to us last year - when he crossed over from webelos and went camping less than a week later, in single digit temps, with practically no training and inadequate gear (what we know now...). Of course he had a lousy time, froze the whole weekend, and swore he'd never camp in snow again. Happily, he's giving it another try this year. I think I'm going to spin a thread into the cub scout section to suggest a little more webelos II training/coordination with troops prior to cross-over. Lisa'bob

I second the enforcement comments made by others here. Our troop has by-laws/procedures/things to know or whatever you want to call them. New scouts and their parents are required to sign off, indicating that they've read, undertand, and will follow them. Of course, the boys at least don't ever seem to have read them so I don't see a lot of utility there. Some address practical concerns (ex: how to get a refund if you transfer to another troop) and I find those helpful. Some others address behavioral types of issues and I find these less useful because they are enforced sporadically. For example: scouts who have not attended x% of troop meetings and campouts in the last x months may not be allowed to participate in just-for-fun troop activities. (Now before anybody gets up in arms about attendance requirements, let me state that I don't care for this particular policy - but it is troop policy all the same.) The problem with the above, depending on one's perspective, is either that it leaves no room for flexibility, or else that it leaves entirely too much room for flexibility. Further, it is not always enforced, but it is occasionally trotted out. When it is, scouts who will be stung by the policy typically view this as a foul play. (How could they have known the policy would apply to this activity that they really want to participate in, when it didn't apply to a previous activity? No consistency.) Some see it as a personal attack (SM or SPL or whoever just doesn't like me - that's why they're enforcing the policy this time, because they know it will impact me.). This is not a winning situation, no matter how you slice it. If we're going to write policies that we have no intention of enforcing in the same, predictable way each and every time, then I'd like to ask why we're writing the policy down to start with. Lisa'bob

Have to laugh...my son's patrol had exactly this exchange the other night while trying to plan a menu for their upcoming campout. Last time, due in large part to poor planning and execution on their part, they ended up with a lot of extra food, much of which was perishable. Additionally, they took ice cream with them and ended up storing it in their patrol box all weekend rather than eating it. Surprise surprise, it melted all over everything, made a mess, and ruined some of their dry goods too. The boy who ended up taking the patrol box home and having to clean up the mess was quite verbal about why this wasn't a desirable experience to repeat. So...this time they put a good deal more effort into proper advance planning. I'm all for efficiency and cutting down on waste but nothing I could say to them would have driven this lesson home any better than their own (admittedly wasteful) experience. Lisa'bob

This is a great thread, very informative. Thanks everyone for you contributions! I have a related question - do you recommend any different tactics for small, skinny younger boys? We've got a bunch of 10-11 yos who are just all bones, hardly any body fat to speak of. Seems no matter what they try they're cold - and it is common for temps to get into single digits or low teens around here for 3-4 campouts each year. My son's one of these guys so any advice would certainly be welcome. Also what's the view on those chemical hand/foot warmer packets? Lisa'bob

My son's troop is doing a campout in a couple of weeks and due to lower than usual attendance from several "regular" patrols, they will be splitting into two small "campout" patrols of 5-6 boys each. However, they do tent in pairs and there was some talk of doing some cooking in pairs. This is because several of the younger scouts want to work on the cooking reqs for 2nd and 1st class and they thought it would be easier to do in pairs (ex: backpack stoves - not everyone has them so they're pairing up with boys who already have one). Lisa'bob

There are circumstances under which I agree that this young man probably shouldn't earn his eagle and Beavah has a good point that it would be difficult (impossible?) to demonstrate a true change of character in as short a time as 2 months. Depending on what happens legally (ie, is he actually found guilty? or just accused? big difference), this boy may well not achieve the eagle rank. My point was simply that, until the legal issues are settled, and whether the boy makes Eagle or not, the committee would be doing this boy a serious dis-service by asking him to comment on the legal matter. The committee has a responsibility to the boy in question not to put him in that sort of jeopardy, especially because he may not realize or understand that that is what is happening. This responsibility doesn't change depending on whether or not he is conferred eagle status. Lisa'bob

We bought a box of 12 cedar arrows for about $36 from Cajun Archery last year. Here's the link if you're interested. http://www.cajunarchery.com/Products?product=1309-1 Aside from the fact that they had blue & yellow fletching, they were just plain. I lightly sanded them to take off the finish and then painted them with stripes according to the various ranks and awards each boy had earned, and mounted them on oak Arrow of Light (the sunburst design like on the patch) plaques that the other WDL made. They looked really cool. Lisa'bob

Sniffles, I have not seen the actual budget for our day camp. However, as a general overview: 1. staff are entirely volunteers, including the day camp director and asst. director. 2. our camp has been held on a council property so there's no fee for use. 3. we've had a day camp for a looooong time so most of the equipment is already there (bows & arrows, bb guns, targets, etc.) and we only need to pay for upgrades and replacements on a limited basis. 4. much of the material for crafts is donated, thank goodness, because we have approx 500-700 boys at our day camp each year. 5. those items that are purchased are bought in bulk to keep price down. 6. we generally run a 3 day camp, though last year due to scheduling problems, it was 2 days. We've been lucky in the past because our day camp is well established and has always been highly successful in the past. That makes it easier (and cheaper) to run going forward. However, in the last couple of years our district has been increasingly itchy about having us at this particular council property, where they also run cubs resident camp. They keep wanting to expand resident camp (makes more money) and kick us out to find a new home. Personally I think that's short sighted since, anecdotally, many parents have told me they love day camp for its limited duration (in terms of parents taking time off from work to be there, especially) and low price. These same parents usually do not send their boys to cub resident camp, so anything that jeopardizes the cub day camp program is doing a dis-service to the 500-700 boys who attend day camp every year (in my view anyway). If the push continues and day camp has to re-locate to a state facility they'd probably have to charge more money. I suspect attendance would also drop accordingly if the price went way up. But we'll see. Lisa'bob

Semper - yup, and that's usually a good thing....(grin)

jd did I read that correctly, your cub day camp costs $100 and the BBQ dinner is extra? Wow...ours is typically in the $30 range, including T shirt and a family "festival" (no meal though) on the last of three days. On the other hand we have done ours at a council camp in the past which means we don't have to pay to use the facilities. Lisa'bob

Well my guy had his first BoR the other day and made his tenderfoot rank. As some of you may know from my previous posts it hasn't been a very smooth first year. There have been some pretty big debates in the troop regarding how the first year program works (or whether there is one) and what kind of experience the younger scouts are having. We've given serious consideration to switching troops but decided to stick things out a bit longer. It has been a difficult path for my son but at the moment I think he is glad he made that choice, and I'm proud of him (well yeah, I'm his mom...). Word is, he gave the board quite an earful when they asked him what he would like to see changed. I had to laugh because I have studiously avoided discussing the debates among adult leaders with my son or within ear shot. However, he apparently nailed exactly those concerns on his own, with specific examples of what he would change, how, and why. Guess this falls into the "be careful what you ask for" category. Happily, he also apparently told them he no longer wants to quit and is excited about working on his next rank. Hurrah! Lisa'bob

Well put, John. I can't believe anybody would get into presonal attacks over LNT??? Yes, I am certain that there are people out there who take LNT to such an extreme as to be ridiculous; then again, that seems to be true of nearly every part of the scout program. There are core groups of fanatics out there for everything. However, my experience with learning and teaching LNT to cubs and their parents is that most of the kids I interacted with had no acquaintance AT ALL with the basic principles of LNT. None. Now, how is teaching boys (and parents, who tended to be worse) to be more respectful of nature a bad thing? Really? Note that many of these same families actually do a lot of camping (Michigan's upper peninsula isn't that far away from here), so even small changes in behavior could reap big bonuses in terms of environmental protection. By the way - BrentAllen made a comment that he is a conservationist, not an environmentalist. Honestly the biggest political mistake "environmentalists" ever made was to draw any kind of distinction between the two. One need not be a loony to want to protect the environment. Rooster, for a minute there I though you might have taken dan's comment about the mildness of this forum as a personal challenge to liven things up?? Lisa'bob

I really like the idea of sending the webelos off on their own daycamp program. My son went to daycamp for 4 years and had a good time, yes, but it did get a little repetitious by the final year. As a volunteer all 4 years (You can call me "Range Leader Lisa'bob") I noticed that the boys who had just finished 4th grade and were moving on to wII seemed to have crossed some kind of serious developmental line in comparison to the younger scouts too. Not that there weren't differences between the other ages too, but this is where I saw it most prominently displayed. So a separate webelos program would've been welcome. However, doing so would've required a lot more staff, which might have been difficult to pull off. Lisa'bob

nldscout, I have no idea what is or is not actually happening in the councils referenced by the previous poster. However I do know that if you were to use my council's web site as an indicator of what's actually going on in the council, you'd form a rather incorrect picture of reality... Lisa'bob

Scoutldr is right. Don't let your CM dictate this. Talk with the committee chair about including a discussion of the pack's camping program on the agenda. Then when your committee meets to discuss the pack's camping plans and the CM says "but everyone loves this place" you can offer factual evidence that this is incorrect (Hmmm let's see a show of hands for people who'd like to try a new place). Easily done. Aside from that, even if "everyone" really does "love" this site, change can be nice. Does the CM have a boy in the pack? If so, remind him that his boy too might enjoy exposure to a variety of your local natural treasures rather than the same one every time. If this particular site could be made secure (and just hasn't, to date) then maybe suggest including it in a rotation of camp sites that the pack uses, rather than as the only camp site. Good luck... Lisa'bob

Getting back to rkfrance's original post... Seems to me it is easiest to start a new pack, harder to start a new troop. With the cub program, pretty much any group of well-meaning and dedicated adults can learn to run a good program pretty quickly and with relatively little in the way of equipment or other physical needs, besides a good meeting place. To run a good troop you need much more specific knowledge about camping and the outdoors. While various BSA trainings offer some of that knowledge, if you had a group of parents with limited personal experience, there's just no way (in my view) that a weekend of OLS is going to be enough for them to run a quality program. Not to mention that troops tend to have much more expensive and expansive needs in terms of equipment. (I don't have any experience with crews but I guess it would depend on the purpose and focus of the crew to a large extent). So I guess one thing I'd give serious thought to before starting a new troop is: where are the adult leaders going to come from? It is one thing to say well, the parents of the boys who are going to join will become leaders. It is another thing, especially at first, to make this actually happen and it depends as well on what kind of experience those parents have. Lisa'bob