Lisabob

Moose: because it goes on and on and on and on and on. because it prevents the dissemination of what might actually be useful information because it interrupts the person speaking because it wastes everybody else's time (on the flip side - it is typically trotted out when some well-known windbag seems like they're getting ready to launch into another lengthy stream of consciousness announcement-fest, ugh)

what Venividi said.

don't wait for stragglers. start on time without them. they won't straggle often, once they figure that out. on the flip side, waste my time too often or keep me standing around in the cold outside before breakfast too many times, and I'll start being the straggler ('cause I know you won't start til I show up, so why should I wait for everybody else?) Well ok - **I** wouldn't do that - but the point: reward the behavior you want, not the behavior you don't want.

nah he's already been assigned an MBC and I guess it will all work out fine, but you guys are missing my point. Where are the men counseling this badge? Around here, every counselor I know of is a woman, and usually an older woman. I think this is one of those places where boys would benefit a lot from talking with other MEN about these kinds of things. Yet that isn't a real option, if no guys are counselors for this badge. Is it different where you all are located?

MIB, ask yourself this: if it hadn't been your friend and your parent, if they had been complete strangers or (at best) bare acquaintances, would you have done this the same way? Give your mom the respect that is due to other adult volunteers who are doing their best and donating their time and talents to a common cause. I get the sense that your family (like mine) enjoys a bit of contention. But many other people are not like that, and would have found this extremely awkward. Consider for a moment that your friend probably knew he had to get your mom's signature at the end of the day. Should he side with you, as a friend? Should he side with your mom, whose approval he needs? Should he stay out of it and let you essentially lawyer through the requirements for him? Although your intentions were not malicious, you undermined the MBC, hassled your mother, and put this scout and your friend in a pretty awkward position. Apologies are probably in order for the unintentional problems that could have resulted.

"they are PARENTS not BUTLERS (I think that was my dad's comment, but I may have heard it elsewhere)." Oh, I am so stealing this!

Just because something is allowed doesn't necessarily make it a great idea. Nor is it really fair to post on a forum where it is typical for people to provide lots of different views, and then tell them to take their negative ideas elsewhere when you don't agree. Really. If I were running this program in Florida in June or July, I would want to run it in an air conditioned facility, too. Thing is, I wouldn't be running it, and I wouldn't be encouraging my scouts to participate in it. That's me. Others (clearly) may see it in a different light. As for the badges themselves - I'm not totally thrilled with some of the requirements for these seat-work badges, but I do think some of them are reasonable and sadly, maybe necessary, considering that schools around here pay little attention to these subjects, and even when they do - it tends to be homogenized and cursory. And as someone who teaches political science at the college level, let me assure you that very few college students learned much about world events in high school, and practically none of them learn about local government in high school. I am not exaggerating. These subjects are not covered by standardized tests and so are not taught. Suppose that we accept for a moment the basic necessity of ALL of these badges - I still don't like the "group work" environment of a merit badge weekend to do them. Lots of boys do communications, cit in community, and family life at summer camps and special MB weekends around here. They're a joke. You cannot engage in a meaningful way with the material, in a crowd of boys over a 3 hour period (I am not saying that this particular program that Scouter. references has 3-hour periods - just an example, folks.) Watching a video of a town council meeting that happened 10 years ago (a common practice at one camp for the cit in community and communications badges) is no substitute for attending a real meeting about issues that are actually current and possibly relevant. Talking about the nature of fatherhood (family life) in a group of 30 pre-teen adn teen boys is really just begging for sniggers and off-color comments. So I really despise the group settings for these, because they are prone to misuse and rob the badges of whatever meaning they could have. At a minimum, if a boy has to do these badges on an individual basis, there's a chance that real thought and real conversation of meaning and depth will occur. No guarantees, but still more likely than in a herd of other teen age boys.

Why is it that almost every MBC for this badge in our area is a woman? Not to say that women can't or shouldn't be counselors for this badge (or any other). But a badge that requires a boy to talk with his counselor about sex and what it means to be a father...might be a different conversation between a boy and a guy. I know my own son is really not looking forward to having those conversations with the kindly old grandmotherly lady who is his counselor.

but only if they don't have to ask to borrow $100 from you & dad to do it!

With due respect to your son and his fiance - they were being obnoxious! Haggling with merit badge counselors in front of the scouts like an ambulance-chasing lawyer is no way to win friends & influence people. They're really lucky that you're "mom" because what other adult would have put up with that behavior? If I had been the MBC in question, at some point (pretty early on) I'd have stopped, asked them whether they planned to let the scout do the work to complete the badge to your satisfaction or not, and then asked them to either sit silently away from the table, or leave the room. Any concerns they have with your style of MB counseling might (and I only allow for "might," not "should" or "must") be calmly discussed in a philosophical sense later on over a cup of coffee - but not while you're in the midst of trying to work with a scout who is clearly old enough and far enough along in the process to handle his own affairs.

qwazse: If a CO has an AHG unit and a cub pack, that's one thing. I am familiar with some COs who take the view that pretty much all major youth programs are worthy of sponsorship so as to provide a marketplace full of opportunities for local youth. It is even conceivable that such a CO might sponsor BOTH an AHG unit AND a GSUSA unit at the same time. On the other hand: If a CO expects its sponsored AHG unit and cub pack to interact a lot, hold joint activities, etc., that's another thing. The closer the expected coordination, the less inclined I'd be to volunteer for that particular cub pack.

My son sold garbage bags as a fund raiser for the last jambo. It was pretty easy, the cost per box was low enough that strangers would buy them, and we actually use them. I appreciate that fact! So many fundraisers are for kitschy stuff that I just really don't want or need. Please don't try to sell me one more over-priced smelly candle!

Well ok. I'm not a fan of "school-work" Eagle badges in general and I'm seriously not a fan of them being done in herds. The way these badges are typically done at summer camps is ludicrous and I don't think anybody gets anything out of them. I wouldn't have much faith that they'd be better handled at an Eagle encampment (or retreat, or what have you). To have any meaning I think these need doing on an individual basis. Also, I think a whole weekend working on these badges would be extremely boring for most boys. And it would not be possible to fully complete any of these badges at an Eagle encampment (unless one is doing some serious pencil whipping - almost all have extended timeline requirements, or community participation requirements of some sort). For these reasons, I would actively discourage boys in my unit from signing up. But. If I were planning some "school work" event for mid June in Florida, I can see the allure of air conditioning. And momof2cubs - yes there ARE many elements of other Eagle-required badges that need to be done outdoors, but apparently, this merit badge weekend focuses on badges like: Citizenship in the Community Citizenship in the Nation Citizenship in the World Communications Family Life Personal Management

I don't want this to end up as an issues & politics thread so I'm going to sidestep the question of the BSA's member policies. Scoutfish: By "twinning" I'm referring to what SeattlePioneer describes previously in the thread. "It might well be that Cub Scout Packs will decide to charter AHG groups as well in order to offer twin program for both boys and girls. At present, the hostility of Girl Scouts towards men pretty much precludes that kind of twinning, but an AHG-Cub Scout program might well benefit from such a twinned program. " Leaving aside the issue of whether the pack, itself, could charter an AHG group (maybe more accurate to say the pack's CO) - since I don't hold with the AHG's approach to things, I wouldn't want to be part of a pack leadership that was tightly intertwined with an AHG group. It is one thing to be part of an organization that sponsors multiple groups independent of each other; another to be expected to be intertwined. A CO that expects that will probably also expect the Cub pack to be strongly religious (in a born-again Christian sense) in its emphasis, and that's simply not part of what I would look for in a cub pack. They have a right to do it and the AHG have a right to run their program as they see fit - I just wouldn't want to be involved in it, is all.

I would not join or volunteer for a pack that twinned with an AHG unit. Nothing against the program that AHG has, and I realize my view may not be in the majority on this board. But as I don't hold similar religious beliefs or similar views about proselytizing other people's children in a youth program, I would not want to be any part of that approach. I would go find a different, plain-vanilla, cub pack instead. Others' mileage may vary.

I haven't read every last post but here's my general take. 1. The way this went down presents evidence of a lot of adult dysfunction and you need to ask yourself how much you really want to get into that drama. (As a relatively young adult, you will also be endlessly questioned, tested, and discounted by other adults who like playing these power games and see you as wet behind the ears. No doubt it will tick you off because it is a fundamentally stupid way for adults to behave.) 2. If you feel you have common cause with the chosen SM, you may be able to tag team this mess and make some needed improvements together. But only if you have a common vision and common understanding of the path between the troop's current location and where your shared vision sees the troop being in a year or so. This requires a very strong working relationship and personal commitment to never throw each other under the bus, come what may. (Do try to be somewhat incremental - change is harder than it looks) 3. If you stay on as ASM and you don't have common cause with the actual SM - then you are setting yourself up, or being set up, or both. You'll take the fall for everything that goes wrong and every complaint. Meanwhile the SM can fail to rock the boat and be just fine. But the troop won't be better off for it, and you'll be smack in the middle of the drama. All that's good for is to raise your blood pressure. 4. Even if you are SM at this point, it sounds like there's a title without power waiting for you. You can't lead if nobody will follow. The CC will whip other committee folks into line - her line - and you'll end up at loggerheads with her on a regular basis. When it comes down to it, you can't make the changes it sounds like you want to make, if there isn't a solid majority of other adults supporting you, even if you're 100% right about what needs to happen. Good luck! Hope you'll find a scouting home where your talents are appreciated.

Let's be honest. Has an adult-presented powerpoint **ever** gotten any boy excited about doing much of anything? Snooze. Again, other youth are your best recruiters here. Get away from the powerpoint. Have some boys from other units who attended the last jambo (or philmont, or whatever) come and bring their patch collection, or their photos, or just ask them to join you for a campfire, sit with your guys, and share stories about their adventures. THAT will get other boys excited about going much faster than some windbag adult the boys have never met before, with a powerpoint. And about NYLT: You may have some older boys in your troop who are tired of traditional scout camp, but who would enjoy NYLT a lot. It is worth letting them know about it. By the way, I like the dvds a lot better than the powerpoints. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

bless you, basement.

Do they understand the offerings? My son was in a troop where OA was a non-entity. It wasn't surprising that the (very few) adults who wanted to see OA gain a following had a hard time getting the boys (or other adults) interested. None of the boys had any idea what OA was, or what it could be. Similarly, my boy was the only one in that troop who even knew about NYLT or Jambo. Not because the council failed to advertize, but because the troop did not promote those activities and other adults didn't support them. No other boys seriously considered either of these. And honestly, boys - not adults - are your best recruiters, even if those boys are from other troops. Get them to come in and talk with your troop's youth about the things they did at those events (candidly, without a bunch of hovering adults or lots of slick powerpoint slides) and you might see an up-tick in youth interest. Cost is a separate issue. Some troops I know of subsidize the cost of NYLT on the theory that it directly benefits the troop to have more trained youth leaders. That helps. I'm not aware of troops that subsidize the cost of high adventure or jambo (other than through individual scout accounts, but the individual boys have to work to earn that money).

Just a side note. It doesn't really matter a whit whether this is tax deductible. For people who are facing hard times (high unemployment in MI these days, not to mention significant underemployment), plunking down the money up front is the issue. And whether one is feeling financially secure or trying to figure out where the mortgage payment is going to come from, the notion of being expected to pay an extra $155 for the privilege of getting a signature that allows you to participate (when you're also paying for the event itself), is crazy and insulting. In the other thread, Eamonn said something about the expected value to be gained by harassing and upsetting lots of volunteers for what really amount to small-fry donations. He had an excellent point. This is a very short-sighted strategy. By the way, trainerlady, I'm in MI too and hadn't heard about these new fees. I've got friends who were jambo contingent leaders in the past and will be again this year (incl. for the crews). I'll ask them what they've heard about this.

I definitely don't want to defend shoddy financial practices or quasi-abusive fundraising habits. But I do want to make a comment about DEs doing their own "dirty work." I've worked with a few DEs on a pretty close basis over the years and I've had family who were career BSA professionals. What I saw was that the front-line folks (the DEs) get saddled with highly unrealistic expectations and targets to meet. They work 60 hour weeks routinely, including summers, weekends, nights, etc. Their unit and district level volunteers often see more of them than their families do. As for "dirty work," in my smallish district of under 40 units, it would be impossible for our DE to personally deliver the FOS pitch to all units (given timing of these presentations, which is largely at the whim of the unit leadership). So yes, they need a team, although in my experience, few of the volunteers who agree to do this are any good at it and it may even be counterproductive. Meanwhile, the DE is typically responsible for the success/failure of the "community campaign" by which we mean soliciting the bigger money from local corporations, etc. Volunteers seldom do or even see that part of FOS. And while the pay for the top-tier folks is high (I don't believe that a SE should make 300k but it isn't unusual), the pay for entry-level DEs is typically in the mid 20k range these days. You can't live on that. Keep in mind that when you average out salaries over the 55 (or however many) employees the council has, those few on the high end are skewing the average. The typical employee is not making 54k. So yeah, FOS is a problem on a lot of levels. But the way we see it play out at the unit level is often a reflection of symptoms, not causes.

I cast my vote for sort of normal. I've seen a lot of boys who blew through advancement and MBs and stuff until about 13 or 14, and then all of a sudden they just didn't care about that stuff for a couple of years. About summer camp, maybe the place really isn't very good. Does the troop offer other summer options that are fresh for the older kids? Would he like going to a different camp as a provisional scout (without his home troop) more? Perhaps a very low-key and friendly word to the SM that you wonder what's the deal may give the SM an opportunity to sound him out on this(if the SM has the people-skills to do that without seeming to attempt to browbeat him into going). If you truly want to support him then I'd say, encourage him to stay with scouts but don't sweat the rank stuff too much or else it becomes a battle of wills - and teenagers do really love to exercise their "power" by proving that they can "win" those battles, even to their own long-term detriment sometimes. The changes you see in boys around age 16 are incredible. He may be very glad you helped him stay with it, when he gets there, if you can give him some more space in the meantime. (Then again, I don't know your boy, so your mileage may vary.)

Time to set it aside. You are probably right but lots of people (and not just kids) need to learn by doing. Let the new crew do it their way. Since they haven't yet taken you up on your unsolicited advice, stop giving it. Do offer advice if they ask you, but otherwise, keep out of it. They'll make their own mistakes and learn from them, along the way. The kindest thing you can really do is to be quietly supportive from the wings, even when things don't quite go right and especially when you are around others who know what a stellar job *you* did back when *you* were CSDC program director (you don't want to undermine the new folks). Kinda like being the ex-SPL or the ex-SM.

This sounds like emulation of the worst aspects of school to me. NCLB reaches scouting, with a high stakes test at every grade/rank? Ugh.

Biden does actually know a thing or two about foreign policy and can find Russia (and its neighbors) on a map. Better than some others who are playing the game this year.