LIBob

It looks to me like you have been given a lot of good (albeit sometimes contradictory)advice on this thread. To sum it up - you should definitely not take this lying down. - whizzing in the woods is one thing, whizzing i side of camp but wiht whizing in ful view of others and but grabbing songs, this guy MAY have crossed the line into a YP issue. - if he won't change, then either have him removed or leave. But one thing seems to be missing from all the above discussion. Namely, you should talk to the CM. Tell him what's on your mind. If it helps print out your original post and hand it to him. Even if you leave the pack don't keep it a secret why you are leaving. If the guy is some kind of criminal go directly to the authorities, other than that no good has EVER been accomplished by hiding someone's faults from him. You MUST talk to him. As I said, even if you leave the pack let him know WHY, otherwise he will do the same thing again and again, victimizing dozens of kids and causing the troop to slowly die in the process.

Allen posted "How do you recertify for BSA Lifeguard. In our council, they told us we either had to take the 12 week course again, or spend your week at summer camp doing it. We are not offered a chance to recert. with just an afternoon of skills review and testing. Is there an official list of stuff to demonstrate? Can I find it online?" here's a link http://www.usscouts.org/advance/docs/BSA-Lifeguard.pdf

Sounds like a winner. btw I notice you're from CT. Anywhere near the Appalachian trail? The reason I ask is that at our troop mini-gof outting I overheard some one scout excitedly telling another about his new discovery (the Appalachian trail quote: "And they've got this whole trail that goes all the way from one end of if to the other." Our boys also plan the troops events (each eyar in Fall). If the exceitment has not worn off by this fall's planning session they may decide to backpack part of the trail in which case it may be wise to find a local scout to serve as guide (serving as a trail guide for out-of-state scouts could even cont as a service project.)

As someone stated above, most camps have a "provisional" troop so scouts in your situation (and others like it) can camp without their troop. When I lived in VA my family spent a summer in PA. Rather than haul me all the way back home to go camping I camped with the Provisional troop" at Seven Moutains Scout Reservation near State College PA. It works.

SSScout, It sounds like you ahd a great time. Still when swiming in an ungurded swimming hole THAT big you prolly should followed procedure and set usp swim zones, brought aa whistle for buddy check etc. Wednesday, July 30, 2008 EAST TAWAS - A camping trip up north turned to tragedy Friday for a group of Boy Scouts and their young urban guests when a 12-year-old boy from Lansing drowned in Lake Huron. The incident occurred on the southeast side of Tawas Point State Park in the parks designated swimming area. http://www.iosconews.com/articles/2008/07/30/news/news02.txt 11-Year-Old Drowns During Boy Scout Boating Trip POSTED: 10:13 pm PDT June 7, 2008 http://www.kptv.com/news/16541264/detail.html Kingston Eagle Scout drowns in Plymouth boating accident E-mail|Link May 12, 2010 01:49 PM http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/two_men_rescued.html Jul 2, 2008 Eagle Scout Drowns In Walker County Funeral services are set for Thursday for a 17 year old Eagle Scout who died two days after a being pulled from the bottom of a pool. On Friday Montgromery teen Hayden O'Brien was seen motionless at the bottom of a pool at Elkins Lake's in Walker County. Lifeguards pulled him out. He wasn't breathing and didn't have a pulse. He was revived twice before being flown by a PHI medical helicopter to a Conroe hospital. He died on Sunday. http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/22814094.html WARREN TWP., Ohio -- A family is grieving tonight after a six-year-old boy drowned in a backyard swimming pool in Warren Township. It happened shortly after 7 p.m. Saturday, at a cub scout pool party at a home on North Leavitt Road. The house belongs to pack leader Erik Hoover. http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-pool-party-tragedy-6-yo-drowns-txt,0,7023124.story Boy Scouts examine safety after drowning Until reviews are complete, swimming will be prohibited in the lake at Sand Hill Scout Reservation. DUANE BOURNE Published July 29, 2003 http://www.sptimes.com/2003/07/29/news_pf/Tampabay/Boy_Scouts_examine_sa.shtml

Wow Herme. I love the "Mr. H talk" and should the day come that I am SM I am SOOOO gonna steal that and use it. As for the SM's role in the MB process I guess it depends on factors like the size of the troop. I belonged to three troops as a boy. Two had about 10 scouts one had 15-20 active scouts. In such small troops the SM is very hands-on in the MB process, nearly half the time he IS the counselor. Still I can easily imagine that in a larger troop (such as the one my son just joined) things work very differently.

Thank you Gunny, and if I went over the top at you I apologize. (Hmm, I just got an idea for a thread but will avoid mentioning it here.)

I am not suggesting any sort of subterfuge. In fact I repeatedly warned against it. FOUR TIMES (caps for emphasis, not for yelling.) Seriously at YOUR summer camp do they teach canoeing? Do they teach canoeists what to do when a canoe capsizes? Do teach those skills in the SWIMMING AREA? I am saying, have said, and will repeat there are legitmate scouting activites that can be performed in unroped waters. Playing Marco Polo is ot one of them. Free swim time is not one of them. Water volley ball is not one of them. If you are on a scouting event and you want your kids on those waters you must either - plan ahead and set up a safe swim area, or - do one of the allowed activities and not one of the disallowed activites. I happen to think what SMT did was safe and therfore I phrased my post nicely. Nonetheless I quite clearly posted 1. "I cannot condon taking scouts for a recreational swimming trip to such a swimming hole." 2. "Dear all: Please do not use any of the following as an excuse to take your scouts on a recreational swimming trip in any manner that violates BSA SSD." 3. "Just in case I was not clear. I am not trying to say folks should feel free to play fast and loose with BSA rules, or interpret them loosely etc." 4. "if it is an official scout event and you want tot take the scouts into an unroped swimming area then do so for a BSA-approved purpose not for random play. " I am not sure how anyone can interpret that as "go ahead, just use suberfuge." Am I not making myself clear?

After several decades out of scouting, I signed up again last week (my son just turned 11.) I am in the process of re-certifying as a lifeguard etc. (I am to be the troop's offical "Aquaman.") That said, I see no reason to extend the license period from 3 out to 5 years. You can re-cert in a single afternoon. If you've been out of scouting for 3 or more years why not recertify? I guess I'm not opposed to extending the cert to 5 years. I just don't see the point.

The point about BSA and liability is that BSA is financially liable for bad stuff (from broken toes to drowning) that happen on officialy sanctioned BSA outings but not liable for stuff that happens to a group of scouts and families on their own time. If you want to have a "summer outing" with some scout friends go right ahead and swim under any conditions you deem safe. But if it is an official scout event and you want tot take the scouts into an unroped swimming area then do so for a BSA-approved purpose not for random play.

Hi Beav. Just in case I was not clear. I am not trying to say folks should feel free to play fast and loose with BSA rules, or interpret them loosely etc. I'm saying the BSA rules are strict but not unreasonable. If your goal is to let the kids cool off in a local (unapproved) swimming hole there are ways you can do it. But you must plan ahead (be prepared) and can't let them go there to play Marco Polo. Scout camps teach canoeing (including how to respond to capsize, how to climb in an out of a canoe, how to formo a shore rescue line etc.) all the time. They do this outside of approved swimming areas. Indeed troops ARE allowed to take non-swimmers on canoe trips raft trips etc. But according to safety afloat training, all such trip participants must have 3 hours of canoe/raft practice ahead of time. I don't know of any troop that has ever done this in a roped off swim area and Safety Afloat training illustrates this being done outside an approved swim area.

Knot Head wrote: "I do wonder if a skilled adult who used to be a lifeguard could give this test for the purpose of a canoe trip. I started a thread with that question before I saw this thread." The answer is "NO" According to BSA SSD http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/safety/SSD_slides.pdf "All swimming activity must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who . . . . is trained/committed to BSA Safe Swim Defense." The course takes about 20 mintues plus 10 minutes for the quiz. It can be found here: https://myscouting.scouting.org/Pages/Home.aspx'>https://myscouting.scouting.org/Pages/Home.aspx If that link does not work start at the training page here: http://scouting.org/Training/Adult.aspx'>http://scouting.org/Training/Adult.aspx and click on Safe Swim defense NOTE to lead an official BSA canoe trip you wil also need a leader who has taken "safety afloat" here https://myscouting.scouting.org/Pages/Home.aspx It also requires 30 minutes. Again if that link does not work try the training page http://scouting.org/Training/Adult.aspx

Having "your own" cub pack on board is a HUGE plus, and it sounds to me like you want to start a troop for all the right reasons. However, having started a new troop myself at age 13 I can assure you new troops means you need to find a large number adult leaders from a remarkably small pool of avialable adults. (3 people on the troop comittee, SM and preferably ASM all on day one.) It also means started a "scout-led" troop with a group of kids most of whom have little camping experience and zero experience leading camping trips, troop meetings etc. That said, if it doesn't work out here is your plan "B." 1. Have the kids join one of the existing troops. 2. You personally join the troop comittee, DO NOT ROCK THE BOAT!! 3. After 8-12 months use your 8-12 months of quiet non-complaining service as a "right" to be granted one small favor. 4. That favor is: have your son, or one of the boys moving up with him designated patrol leader of a patrol that includes several (most) of the boys who would benefit most from (and contribute most to) a scout-led rather than a committee led scouting experience. 5. Maintaing 2-deep leadership and other BSA rules, host regular scout-led patrol meetings at your house. In short, if your plans don't work out do an end around. Keep the kids active in one of the current troops and use your energy to help them create a great scout-led patrol . . . one which meets almost as often as the troop does. (This message has been edited by LIBob)(This message has been edited by LIBob)

Trevorum wrote: btw, welcome to the forums thanks Trev. Scoutfish wrote: I get what you're saying LIBob! No, I do not want to hear the gay guy at the office talk about all his weekend conquests at the gay bar. BUT I do not want to here about the office studmuffin brag about how many women he conquested this weekend either. I'd tell both of them to shut up! Yeah that's 99% it. Except that as Trev pointed out, in polite society a guy is allowed to say "She's cute. I'd like to date her," Whereas guys are NOT allowed to say the same thing about other guys. I see scouting as a being analogous to polite society. I also seepart of scouting's characters goals as teaching kids how to behave in polite society. In that sense - I see nothing wrong if a 16-year old eagle scout tells an 11-year-old tenderfoot "She's cute. I'd like to date her." - But I don't think the 16-year old should say the same thing about guys -Nor do I think telling the 11-year-old "you have to listen to boys talking about their desire to date boys," should be part of teh 11-year-olds scouting experience.

MY last post got kinda twisted up. Lemme put it this way. If I'm in a fancy restaurant wiht my son and he wants tosing the diarrhea song, or read me an email list of 101 uses for a dead cat, I would ask him to change the subject and inform him that such talk is inappropriate in some settings. (Even though there is nothing immoral about diarrhea and the dead cat email is actually funny.) I suspect you would do the same. Certain discussions belong in certain circles and "disbelong" in others. Thems the rules. It is not hateful to understand that, nor bigotted to instill such "don't talk about certain things in cerain places" values in one's child. Scouting is supposed to be about scoutcraft, campcraft etc. It is not a therapy group where kids should talk about private matters nor is it an indoctrination camp whre kids should be taught "the rules agsinst discussing certain things in certain places are oppressive."

Well I don't know what community you live in, but here on LI if a guy came into work and couldn't shut up about how badly he wanted to date some other guy he would not be taken out and beaten but he would be considered in a negative light. (Much teh same way as some guy who can't stop atlking about all the women he has been wiht.) Whereas discreet gay men and women and discreet Casa Nova types seldom find their lifestyle leads to ill feelings at work. My point is that doing one's best . . . to be morally straight does not mean embracing the latest social norms. Moreover it precludes mean tallking about certain subjecgts, including one's private desires, etc. in certain circles. I don't make the rules, tha say you can't talk about foot fungus in a quiet restaurant, but I know that being morally straight means not talking about such things in such settings. There is a long list of consensual acts that may harm no one and are perfectly acceptable in certain social circles (walking around naked, smoking pot, stealing from your boss, consensual BDSM . . .) and yet doing one's best to be morally straight precludes discussing them in polite society and in certain circles (including scouting.)(This message has been edited by LIBob)

Well that's not what I meant. If you want to go that deeply into it then I suppose I should add that scouting is many things but it is not a vehicle for social change. You will notice for example that neither the citizenship in the nation MB nor any related merit badge ever adopted a diversity requirement or a "same drinking fountains" requirement, and it sat out the entire civil rights era. If a scout is gay he should keep it to himself. If a scout is straight but sleeping around with a different woman every weekend he should keep it to himself. I don't make up the socially imposed definitions of "morally straight" but thems what they are. Walk into any, HS, Dilbert office or auto repair shop in America and the rules are 1. It's okay for a guy to say "That girl is hot. I'd like to date her." 2. It's not okay for a guy to say the same thing about a man. 3. it's not okay for a guy to talk about the things he did between the sheets with his GF last weekend. Thems' the rules of polite society. "to keep myself . . morally straight" means just that it does not mean "keep myself on the avant garde of tolerance." It does not mean "to keep myself up to date on the latest fashion trend of sophomore moral trends." Philosophically we could make the case that touching oneself in public, smoking marijuana or eating diner in one's bathing suit is not immoral, but keeping oneself "morally straight" prohibits such avant garde behavior.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

Heres my 2-cents. Imagine a heterosexual scout is sexually active and proud of it. Imagine he comports himself in such a way that every scout he encounter soon learns Eagle Scout X likes sleeping around and if you think hes cool you should too. I am sure somewhere in the rules there is a way the SM can tell him to put a sock in it, and can separate him from the troop if he steadfastly refused to do so. If a scout is gay on his own time, or scout is a (hetero) Casanova on his own time then that is up to him. However his private habits should remain private, scouting is not an opportunity for him to make implicit boasts about his outside endeavors. Nor should it be a platform for him to foist his own personal view of morality on other scouts. Gay or straight if he cannot shut up about his personal preferences he should be banned from access to the troop. There. I have given the correct answer. Thread over (jk)

My suggestion is that for a designated (6-12 month) period you keep the younger kids together and assign them a senior scout (or two) as PL and perhaps an APL. This will give the young 'uns time to work on things that do not interest the older ones and give 1-2 older ones an opportunity to develop leadership skills. As iime passes however you will want to mix the two patrols in order to - promote troop unity (prent cliques, and to - give their PL a chance to stop working with tenderfoots (tenderfeet?) and work on his own advancement.

Dear all: Please do not use any of the following as an excuse to take your scouts on a recreational swimming trip in any manner that violates BSA SSD. Not all BSA activities that involve kids in the water are recreational swimming. Every year, summer camp puts hundreds of kids into water that does not meet SSD standards (no roped areas no checked bottom etc.) Doing so is perfectly within BSA regs if you done so for instructional/preparedness purposes but not within BSA regs if done so for the purpose of recreational swimming e.g. 1. While teaching canoeing, rowing sailing skills etc. there are several times when you canoers etc. to get into the water. Canoeing MB requirement 6 requires every student to get out of the canoe and climb back in. It also requires they jump out, capsize the canoe , right it and crawl inside their now water-filled canoe and paddle to shore.. This is done at every camp in the country and is NEVER done inside a roped off swimming area. 2. Even if scouts are not attempting such an MB, BSA Safety afloat includes 9 points. http://www.inaraft.com/pdf/safety_afloat.pdf Under point #3 a limited number of non-swimmers ARE allowed on canoe trips etc.. However under Point #6 ALL participants (both swimmers and non-swimmers), must be trained and ****experienced**** in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures. IOW before you ever take your scouts on a canoe trip have them especially the non-swimmers jump get out of the canoe, into the water and make it to shore or make it back in the canoe (with or without the help of his fellow scouts.). You would be crazy (and in violation of BSAs safety Afloat rules) to take a non-swimmer on a canoe TRIP without practicing such emergency procedures first. In short there are lots of traiing safety/purposes by which you can get those kids (swimmers and non-swimmers alike) in that swimming hole, but recreational swimming is just not one of them. If the kids need to cool off and that's the only place to do it stage a legitimate training/safety exercise. You will not only have BSA's blessing but wihtout something like that you will never have BSA's blessing to take non-swimmers on a canoe trip. Non-swimmers too must be prapared in case their canoe tips over.(This message has been edited by LIBob)(This message has been edited by LIBob)

sincere Congrats SMT I'm sure you and your troop had a great time. As a former BSA summer camp lifeguard (and now in the process of re-certifying to become the aquatics MB counselor for my sons troop) I can safely and honestly say - The way you handled it sounds adequately safe to me. The question at hand s really more a question of liability to the BSA, and adherence to BSA rules. - As a scouter posting on a scouting forum Ill not post anything that would encourage you to violate BSA safe swim defense (which, as has already been pointed out was actually designed for setting up swim areas on Scout Reservations.) - If you had posted your thoughts on a swimming forum youd get one set of answers. - When you posted them on a scouting forum, well, youre gonna get another set. As a scouter posting on a scouting forum I cannot condon taking scouts for a recreational swimming trip to such a swimming hole. Feel free to take the kids as a group of friends, but for liability reasons you should leave BSA out of it. That said, there ARE BSA authorized circumstances under which your troop can and should utilize such an area. But recreational swimming just isn't one of them. I'll explain in a moment.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

When I was in cubs my Dad was a teacher and we spent all summer every summer at our summer home. I honestly have no idea if my cub pack took summers off I know my brothers and I certainly did. As a BS the rule (with my first troop) was you had to attend both of the two troop meetings prior to summer camp or you could not go. Anyway if you are looking for ideas about how to address the issue the best I can suggest is that you should look at scouting's roots, or at least it's earlier days for guidance. Here's (link to a) circa 1959 scoutcraft book discussing various pioneering projects. http://www.grumpyogre.com/dump/pionprojects.pdf The book is 97 pages long and the word "patrol" appears in it 87 times. It discusses a patrol using a canvas tarp to build several types of rafts. And discusses nearly every project as a patrol activity. Notice scouting at its core is not "Older scouts work on pioneering while younger scouts work on tote 'n chip." If ya want to fix the problem perhaps the way to do it is to find, (within the troop) a handful full of kids who are willing to continue scouting over the summer as a patrol. Besides, absent the traditional leaders the kids are likely to step up and build leadership skills on their own. I know for me being a patrol leader and holding patrol meetings outside of troop meetings was one of the greatest scouting experiences of my life. -One week we grabbed our fishing poles and hiked two miles to the nearby creek. -Another week we "hiked" to the local football field and worked on compass skills by setting up 300-yard, 3-4 turn orienteering courses for each other. - A third week we took a "bike hike" to a local park with a lake. Of course these days with "two deep adult leadership and all two adults would ahve to tag along, but if the adults are just tagging along on events the kids thought up and planned and led themselves I'm sure the experience would be at least as valuble. I short think of this as an opportunity. You've got some very good troops there. Now with a little nudge from you they can develop some grat patrols and great opportunities for the kids to practice leadership. Anyway, that's my idea.

Honestly I don't understand why a BSA camp reservation would provide electricity to its campsites, but if they are going to do that then troops bringing in big screens is soething I would predict as the next step. (electric fans are not far behind.) Keep in mind not every SM is a born and raided devoted scouter. some of them sorta got roped into the deal and perfomr their duties out of a sense of responsibility. While I certainly do not approve of big screen tv's at scout camp, I try not to judge such scoutmasters hashly. They are actually giving up MORE because they are "stuck" in a world (the world of scouting) they don't particularly like and don't particularly understand.

That's a great story, and one that will be tough to follow. Although some of the silly stuff I did on my first Webelos overnighter (circa 1978) is STILL being talked about: Prior to my first Webelos overnighter I had done extensive reading about camping, backpacking etc. I was a big fan of Daniel Boone etc. and had already proudly learned things like camp near a source of drinking water, pull your food up into a tree to keep it safe from bears etc. Wel, when you arrive at Ockinickon SC in Bucks County PA the FIRST thing you see is the Lake. We drove about a mile in parked the cars and walked the last 200 yds to the campsite. I noticed the latrine on the way in but was in formed "it's an outhouse." It was, (still is), but waht I didn't realize is that it had running water for cooking cleaning etc. We unpacked and settled in and the Webelos Den leader assinged us duties to set up camp. I was handed two buckets and told to get water . . . . I bet you can guess the rest, but just in case: It takes a VERY long time for an 10-year-old boy to walk and entire mile with two gallon buckets of water. I am not a quitter, never was, so i did not give up. More than an hour after I was gone they informed camp staff they had a missing camper and sent out search parties. Sometime later, it was now after sunset and they adults were getting truly worried I wobbled into camp with two of the sloppiest most algae-filled buckets of lake water you could imagine, extremely proud of my accomplishment.

Camp Rockanickon, sigh some great memories there.