LIBob

EagleDad wrote: My opinion is the BSA is loosing scouts from its own weight. Any volunteer with a few years experience in managing a Cub program will tell you its nearly a full time job. The number of Cub families that drop in the first year is pretty high. My first reaction is "good riddance." I am concerened about the overall numbers of cub scouts as anyone but ya gotta figure 1. The number of kids/parents dropping afer the first year of anything is going to be pretty high. A LOT of parents are going to want to try things out. Aftera a while leaving work early and going through the rigors of two deep leadership so their kid can "carve ivory soap" and "do arts and crafts." is going to take a toll.

I keep thinking about the "1st year 1st class" thing and here are my recent thoughts: Waaay back when I was a scout I moved twice and thus was in three different troops. Each of the troops put a pretty heavy emphasis on teaching first aid and knot tying to new scouts. That being the case, if the scout was a decent swimmer to begin with, the only thing that made "first class in first year" more difficult than falling off a log was the camp cooking requirements. That being the case I am not sure 1st class in a year is such a bad thing. The only disadvantages I recall are - it meant we had a lot of lousy camp meals and - because nobody ever cooked more than a few times none of us really developed good solid camp cooking skills. Of course all three were small troops maybe something (related to 1st class in first year) that prevented the troops from growing. Still if the kid is a swimmer and teh troop is doing its job, cooking is the only part of 1st class that requires effort.(This message has been edited by LIBob)(This message has been edited by LIBob)

When I look at the numbers from this (polictally motivated) webpage http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_membership.html it seems that the decline is primarily in cub scouts. Of course today's cubs are tomorrows Boy scouts, but the point is the # of boy scouts has bounced back and forth from 900,000 to 1,000,000 severl times simce 1986 or so. Cub enrollment OTOH also cycled from 2.1 million to 1.9 million back to 2.1 million and then dropped like a rock to 1.6 million.

delete double post(This message has been edited by LIBob)

Actually Boy Scout membership peaked in 2002, not 1998. The number of cub scouts peaked in 1990 then dipped, peaked again in 1998 and then dipped again. Personally I don't expect the Cub scout enrollment to peak again anytime soon. It's a lot harder to run Cubs scouts now that Scouting now has a two-deep leadership requirement.

I have not been involved long enough to notice anything locally. I do know that US birthrates have been declining steadily for years. However, that does not seem to explain it totally. Scouts joining today were born in 1999 and births actually saw a small uptick from 1995-1999. Hmm, I don't know why enrollment is declining. Anyway, here, according to USAToday are the number of live births in the US by year for selected years: 1990.......... 4,158,212 1991.......... 4,110,907 1992.......... 4,065,014 1993.......... 4,000,240 1994.......... 3,952,767 1995.......... 3,899,589 1996.......... 3,891,494 1997.......... 3,880,894 1998.......... 3,941,553 1999.......... 3,959,417 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-07-16-baby-boomlet_N.htm (This message has been edited by LIBob)

Docdt, I hear ya, and I think you are doing everything right and for the right reasons. I'm just saying that starting a troop is . . . well if starting a troop doesn't work, out then plan "B" should be to create a GREAT patrol. B-P envisoined scouting as being patrol based. The earliet records of scouting (well at least the few of them that I have read,) reveal that B-P, William Boyce etc. constantly struggled to make things more "patrol based." I'm guessing this is code for saying they wanted to take things out of the SM's hands and put them into the boys' hands. Of course it's only a guess, a very unlearned opinion. But I KNOW that the brief time I spent as a patrol leader (as happenstance had it I was quickly bumped up to SPL), were among the happiest, most "Tom Sawyerish" days of my life. - we had bike hikes, - we had fishing trips, - we failed miserably, even "super-miserably" at building a raft. Go with plan "A," and Godspeed you on your course, but don't burn any bridges. Plan "B" just, might be the greatest time of your son's life.

Twocubdad wrote: "We're in the process of examining the whole First Year/First Class theory in our troop. The push to First Class breeds a lot of problems, not the least of which is lack of time to adequately master T-2-1 skills. In the past we've always had a mad scramble for everyone to serve as patrol cook for the First Class cooking requirement. The way it worked meant that when you met the requirement was likely the only time you served as patrol cook. Our challenge to the boys now is for it to be the BEST time you served as patrol cook. So we're going at a little more slowly. Maybe we emphasize First Class/First 18-to-24 months. The other negative effect of First Year/First Class is setting the expectation to blow through Boy Scout ranks like Webelos activity pins. Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class in one year, but you want me to do Star, Life and Eagle over SIX YEARS?? There's a disconnect. . . . A 12- or 13-year-old Eagle has not had the time for that sort of growth. That's a very interesting post please keep us informed as to how it works out. The reason I say that is, as a boy my family moved a lot. EVEERY one of the three troops I belonged to raced the kids (myself included) to 1st class in year one and then slowed down, focused on giving the 1st class scouts leadership experience, and let them procceed at their own pace. As you correctly point out there are good and bad aspects to that ideology, nonetheless I have never experienced a troop that did things any other way, so it would be interesting to read your your thoughts as your troop transforms from one philosphy to another.

So anyway it seems some conditions have been placed on this thread Condition 1: If a scout was taught safe swim and safe boating procedures and chose to ignore them, the drowning "doesn't count" unless it happened at a scouting event. Condition 2: If a media article does not mention the specific violation of SSD/SA that occurred, then no such violation occurred. I'm not sure what the purpose of such conditions are, but what the hey. I will cheerfully endeavor to meet the conditions placed upon me. Here's a Safety Afloat condition I routinely violate: Regardless of how large or small a vessel is all passengers must wear a PFD at all times. Honestly if we are on a Ferry boat, large fishing boat (aka party boat) or large sightseeing boat I just go with the flow. Apparently (notice the qualifier) a Staten Island SM did things the Bob way, and the result was 14-year-old scout Nicholas Johs died off Cape May NJ as his father and friends watched on in horror. The fact that passengers threw Johs a life preserver tells me he probably (notice the qualifier) was not wearing a PFD. . . . .Vessels from the Coast Guard, State Police and beach patrols in Cape May Point and Cape May looked for the man overboard. Others scoured the beaches. Fire companies from Cape May Point and Cape May were joined by Cape May Point Public Works, Cape May Point State Park personnel and a New Jersey State park ranger in the search. A dive team from Town Bank Volunteer Fire Company was ready to go into the water. Cape May and Lower Township police also went to the beach and to Schellengers Landing. More than four years ago, April 30, 2005, a Boy Scout from New York fell off the Whale Watcher II during an excursion. Nicholas Johs, 14, a member of Boy Scout Troop 26 of Staten Island, was not able to grab a life preserver thrown to him and quickly sank from view as his horrified father and childhood friends looked on. An autopsy found he survived a propeller strike and died from drowning. http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/article_13602b52-56ab-11de-8240-001cc4c03286.html

Hey twocub, I wouldn't know anything about the old SSD video because I have not seen it. I DO know that a quarter century ago. when I worked on a BSA waterfront we told every camper "Scouts drown every year. It's usually only one or two but that is one or two too many. And yet never, in the 75-tear history of scouting has a scout ever died at waterfront that follows BSA safety procedures." We'd pause for a moment and then add "Think about it. One or two every single year versus zero in 75 years. This stuff really works. It really does save lives and it saves lives every year." Anyway, you are right about the limited value of media stories. As I have noted, and others have noted, and now you have noted, the fact that a media article does not mention buddies is not proof that no buddy system was in place. Still, Eagle Scout David Hanson knew BSA safe boating procedures and neglected to follow them. The result was his death. Despite the limits of media articles, that much is clear. Eagle Scout Hayden O'Brien must have been trained in the importance of having a swim buddy. Nonetheless he chose to swim without one. As a result he was underwater for 3 full minutes before anyone noticed him missing. Point being media stories (despite their much discussed limits) sometimes do yield interesting and worthwhile facts. Sometimes they even reveal the exact SSD/SA violations that led to death. (As they did in the cases of David Hanson, and Hayden O'Brien. (This message has been edited by LIBob)

Thank you Eagle. It's true that some of the stories I have posted are scout drownings that occured at non-scouting events. I feel these are still germaine because part of scoutings mission is to teach scouts to be prepared and be safe even outside of scouting events. A scout who learns gun safety at camp should sill exercise gun safety on his own time no? Anyway here's a story of a scout who drowned on a scouting boat trip. From what I can tell the only aspect of SA they group violated was that their float plan failed to realize the river was to high and too fast. That's a tough call to make. How does a person know what constituties "too fast?" I personally don't even know what guidelines to use. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1213239355128611.xml&coll=7 . . . Cornell said La Vielle had taken both the Scout-sponsored "Safety Afloat" training and "Safe Swim Defense" training. And in the 14 years he's been a Scout leader for Troop 107, La Vielle had taken his young charges canoeing on the Clackamas several times. His own son -- now 26 -- had made the trip, and recently remembered it as one of his best times as a Boy Scout. But Saturday was the group's first time this season, a year in which the river is cold and about four times its normal volume. Conditions on the river are so extreme, said Deputy Mitch Beyer of the Clackamas County sheriff's dive team, that he sent his people to Blue Lake earlier this week rather than conduct training on the river itself. Still, the Scouts chose to go ahead with their day trip. La Vielle was part of a group of six adults and three Scouts, including Finn, a sixth-grader. The group put in at Barton Park and planned to take out at Clackamette Park. Just above the Interstate 205 bridge, in the rapids at the water intake and pump station, the canoe containing La Vielle and Finn went over around 5:15 p.m., dumping them into the frigid water. Both clung to the canoe and rode it downstream. "We were fine," La Vielle said. "I was one side and Finn was on the other -- we were both holding on." La Vielle remembers that they were just about to make it to safety when the current swept them downstream. While his memory of the events is still foggy, La Vielle said he remembers grabbing a rope from a throw bag that someone in another boat apparently tossed to him "but there was no one at the other end. They couldn't hold us." After they floated under the bridge, another canoe from their group came alongside. Both he and Finn grabbed onto the other canoe, again, he on one side, Finn on the other. A woman in the other canoe was able to briefly grab Finn's life jacket around the collar and hold on to him. Then, La Vielle said, Finn cried out, "Ow! Ow! My legs," as if they were striking underwater obstructions. "He got snatched off the canoe and went under the water," La Vielle said. While rescuers came quickly, they couldn't save Finn. They eventually found his body 6 feet under the surface in about 10 feet of water. A rope from a throw bag -- it may have been one he had with him in his canoe, or one that was thrown to him by would-be rescuers -- was wrapped around his wrist. It held him underwater and he drowned. The Clackamas is far from the only river running very high right now. Because of the high snowpack, rivers throughout the Northwest are running higher and faster than usual, some at historic levels. In fact, they haven't been this high -- and, in some spots, this dangerous -- since 1999, said Tom Herrett, a hydrologist with the U.S. Geological Survey.

Calico your post makes a lot of sense. (Note however that I teach my son to use the buddy sysem and follow other scout procedure even when swimming or boating at non-scouting events.) Kenny Frazier did drown at a scouting event and the articles I've read make no menion one way or another of things like "buddy-check" and "lifeguards." It could of course be slopy reporting but those words are conspicuously absent from sentences like The Iosco County Sheriffs Department received a report at about 3:56 p.m. of a missing child in the water who had disappeared below the surface, according to Deputy Sgt. Charles Linneman. Emergency crews and beach- goers at the day use area of the state park searched for the boy in and along the designated swimming area. more in a moment(This message has been edited by LIBob)

This website indicates and extreme canoeist using state of the art canoes averages 4.5 mph. http://wayfarer.fit2paddle.com/speed-test.htm These two indicate paddlers on the Delaware average 1.5 to 2.5 mph http://www.nps.gov/upde/planyourvisit/planningrivertrip.htm http://www.moon.com/destinations/philadelphia/excursions-philadelphia/bucks-county/recreation/water-sports-the-delaware-river

HiNeal Perhaps I should have made myself more clear. SSD DOES apply to swimming holes, but it was designed with larger areas in mind. Roping off three sections in a 20-foot wide swimming hole can seem rather silly. but thems the rules and they should be followed. SSD should be followed at all scout related recreational swimming events. The solution I suggested regarding was not to allow recreational swimming there at all but rather to use it for some legitmate puropose that does not require roped-off swimming areas. e.g. You can use an unroped area to teach kids "capsized canoe" response, but you cannot use an unroped are for Marco Polo or water volleyball. Your local scout camp probably teaches capsized canoe response in an unroped area. Doing so is completely in keeping with BSA policy. It would be nice if SSD policy were amended so that an exceedingly small area (like a 20-foot swimming hole) did not need to be roped off to comply with scout policies. Nonetheless we should comply with it as written.

Our troop has it's entire annual calendar posted on its website. http://troop229bsa.com/jan_dec_2010%20rev17.pdf It's the main tool use to plan the next year's events. Turn's out the planning session is in late August (so right now there are few fall events scheduled. The one from the year before is also on the website http://troop229bsa.com/jan_dec_2009%20rev29.pdf.

Thanks for the replies. Again I don't know what the scouts are going to put into next year's plan but it wouldn't surprise me if 2011 inlcuded a couple of night on the AT. There is a Council in NJ that has a 2-night pre-planned AT backpacking experience From Kittatinny Mountain Scout Reservation to Yards Creek Scout Reservation Friday: 3.7 miles Saturday 13.8 miles Sunday: Short Hike to Yards Creek SR http://www.cnjc-bsa.org/camps/hikes/kmsrycsr/hike2.htm We could do that, but I've been told the appalachians are different and more beautiful in New England. btw do you have to reserve campsites on the AT or is it first come first served?

I'm not trying to point fingers but rather to look for wasy to raise awareness and find ways to prevent these sorts of things. Scouts drown every year often at scouting events and typically (but not always) it turns out that at least one point of SSD/SA was not being followed. 17 year old Texas Eagle Scout Hayden O'Brien was swimming in a guarded public pool without a buddy. Hayden O'Brien, son of Wanda and Tim, was in a swimming pool "accident". It appeared he was trying to hold his breath as long as possible and passed out at the bottom. He had been seeing how long he could stay under water throughout the day so it didn't catch the lifeguards' attention right away. http://breadoflifeprayerlist.blogspot.com/2008/06/hayden-obrien.html They managed to revive him but he died two days later. http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/22814094.html http://itemonline.com/local/x212547991/Teen-pulled-from-swimming-pool-dies?keyword=topstory These stories are sad, but if we learn from them, maybe we can prevent similar things from happening to our own scouts. Certainly if we read enough of these stories we lessen the likelihood that someone wil play fast and lose with SSD/SA rules.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

My point is that I am reading stuff at quality news websites, noting that fact taht those stories do not necessarily include every detail, you are using a differnt source and acting as though I am make wreckless use of sources. The fact is scouts drown every year, frquently at scouting events and almost inevitably when one or more points of SSD/SA were not being followed. I used google to find a news story noted that the story does not menition the buddy system and posted qualifiers like "apparently." You've decided to ignore the qualifiers,and ignore the fact that I am aware of the limits of news stories. You have also decided to completely ignore the topic at hand and instead treat me like a silly child. I don't understand why you find being discourteous and irreverant so amusing but if you would like to discuss SSD/SA, the drownings and what could have been done to prevent them i'm willing to tolerate your attitude. If you want to discuss "Bob is a silly child who uses the Boston globe as a source," please do so on a spinoff thread.

Wow you keep posting an reposting that I used google to find these incidence as if it means anything google links is automatically wrong. The fact is a couple scouts drown every year, sometimes on scout outtings. Almost inevitably it turns out that at least one point of SSD or SA was not being followed. These incidences happened. The fact that google links the major news stories about them does not make them untrue. heck there are even MB requirements that instruct scouts to find stories in newspapers and use news stories as sources. btw I have searched the sheriff's web page but can't find the link. http://iosco.m33access.com/sheriff.htm Can you please post the link?

True when David Hanson drowned he was not on a scouting event nonetheless he was a scout and he did drown. Press articles often leave out details but the boston globe articles make it pretty clear there was a breakdown in discipline (SA point #9), and that they did not have the necessary skill porficeincy (SA point #6) to be boating at night Hanson and the boat's owner, 20-year-old Wayne Carlson, both were wearing life jackets, but lacked experience boating on the ocean at night, according to Hanson's father, Keith Hanson. They shouldnt have been out there in the boat, the father said in a telephone interview today. It was lack of judgment, and two inexperienced guys who shouldnt have been out there. Its like playing Russian roulette. Note also that SA point #1 requires an adult 21 or older, and point #5 requires a "buddy boat" as well. I cna easily imaigine those two points being violated when it comes to motor boats. In fact I'm not sure I would enforce them on a non-scouting event. Nonetheless, Hanson and his friend took a boat trip that appears to ahve violated 4 points of SA and Hanson died as a result.

That's interesting Beav Could you post a link to the sheriff's report? Oh as for lifeguards: SSD 1. Qualified Supervision All swimming activity must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in his or her care, who is experienced in the water and confident of his or her ability to respond in the event of an emergency, and who is trained in and committed to compliance with the eight points of BSA Safe Swim Defense. (It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently certified as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conduct of all swimming activity.) and 4. Lifeguards on Duty Swim only where there are lifeguards on duty. For unit swims in areas where lifeguards are not provided by others, the supervisor should designate two capable swimmers as lifeguards. Station them ashore, equipped with a lifeline (a 100-foot length of 3/8-inch nylon cord). In an emergency, one carries out the line; the other feeds it out from shore, then pulls in his partner and the person being helped. In addition, if a boat is available, have two people, preferably capable swimmers, take it out - one rowing and the other equipped with a 10-foot pole or extra oar. Provide one guard for every 10 people in the water, and adjust the number and positioning of guards as needed to protect the particular area and activity. 5. Lookout Station a lookout on the shore where it is possible to see and hear everything in all areas. The lookout may be the adult in charge of the swim and may give the buddy signals. http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/safety/SSD_SA_handout.pdf

I have read several stories and accounts of the drowning of 12-year old scout Kenny "cookie" Frazier and have not found any reference made to lifeguards, the buddy system or areas roped off by swimming ability. http://www.iosconews.com/articles/2008/07/30/news/news02.txt Youth drowns in Lake Huron by John Morris EAST TAWAS - A camping trip up north turned to tragedy Friday for a group of Boy Scouts and their young urban guests when a 12-year-old boy from Lansing drowned in Lake Huron. The incident occurred on the southeast side of Tawas Point State Park in the parks designated swimming area. The Iosco County Sheriffs Department received a report at about 3:56 p.m. of a missing child in the water who had disappeared below the surface, according to Deputy Sgt. Charles Linneman. Emergency crews and beach- goers at the day use area of the state park searched for the boy in and along the designated swimming area. The victim, identified by police as Kenneth Frasier, 12, of Lansing, was recovered near a designated swimming buoy at about 5:30 p.m., an hour and a half after the initial call for help, after his body was spotted by crews aboard a U.S. Coast Guard helicopter from Detroit. Crews aboard the Oscoda Township Water Rescue Team vessel immediately began performing cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) while the watercraft traveled to a beach landing area near the state parks pavilion, where other emergency crews were waiting. see also http://www.connectmidmichigan.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=165243 http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2213437 http://www.tncp.net/Articles/tabid/1800/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1796/Default.aspx and http://blog.mlive.com/bctimes/2008/08/police_identify_tawas_point_dr.html

On another thread we were discussing Safe Swim Defense(SSD), Safety Afloat (SA) and how they apply to a 20 ft wide swimming hole. Obviously SSD etc. were written with entirely different areas in mind. It occured to me that maybe SSD and SA need to be fine tuned a bit. Perhaps SSD should be amended to inlcude a different set of prcedures when swimming in a 20-foot wide swimming hole. One way SSD/SA could should be made stricter would be to require, as a part of the SSD/SA training process, that trainees look at real life cases where scouts have drowned and identify which parts of SSD/SA were not being followed. Let's begin with the eagle scout who drowned last month off of Plymouth Harbor. (The article makes the SA violations kind of obvious.) Kingston Eagle Scout drowns in Plymouth boating accident E-mail|Link May 12, 2010 http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/05/13/kingston_man_19_drowns_off_plymouth/ and http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/two_men_rescued.html A teenager from Kingston, an Eagle Scout who dreamed of becoming a firefighter, drowned in the waters off Plymouth Harbor early this morning after the 15-foot recreational boat he was in took on water and sank. David Hanson, 19, was unconscious when the crew on a Coast Guard Jayhawk helicopter spotted him floating in the harbor around 2:30 a.m. today. Hanson was pulled from the water and rushed to Jordan Hospital in Plymouth, where he was pronounced dead. Hanson and the boat's owner, 20-year-old Wayne Carlson, both were wearing life jackets, but lacked experience boating on the ocean at night, according to Hanson's father, Keith Hanson. They shouldnt have been out there in the boat, the father said in a telephone interview today. It was lack of judgment, and two inexperienced guys who shouldnt have been out there. Its like playing Russian roulette. He said he spoke with Carlson at the hospital early this morning and Carlson told him the two had not been drinking or doing anything otherwise illegal, but that they exercised poor judgment in taking the boat out at dark. Keith Hanson said his family is grieving for an adventurous teenager who was told countless times that he should not have been out on the boat at that time, but who couldnt turn down an adventure with a close friend. They were good friends that did a lot together, the father said. Its hard not to tell [a teenager] not to do certain things. and A 19-year-old emergency medical technician who had dreams of becoming a firefighter drowned in the waters off Plymouth Harbor early yesterday morning after the 15-foot recreational boat he was in took on water and sank. Coast Guard crews raced to the scene and rescued the boats owner, who was clinging to a buoy, but could not locate 19-year-old David Hanson of Kingston. A Jayhawk helicopter spotted him just before 3 a.m., roughly 3 1/2 hours after the boat started taking on water, and directed a 47-foot Coast Guard boat to his location. He was unconscious and was transported to Jordan Hospital in Plymouth, where he was pronounced dead. Hansons father, Keith, said yesterday that the family was grieving for an adventurous teenager who was told countless times that he should not have been out on the boat after dark, but who could not turn down a journey with a close friend. They were good friends that did a lot together, Keith Hanson said yesterday. Its hard not to tell [a teenager] not to do certain things. Hanson said he spoke with the boat owner, 20-year-old Wayne Carlson, at the hospital early yesterday morning. Carlson told him that the two had not been drinking or doing anything otherwise illegal, but that they exercised poor judgment in taking the boat out at dark. They shouldnt have been out there in the boat, Keith Hanson said. It was lack of judgment and two inexperienced guys who shouldnt have been out there. Its like playing Russian roulette. State Police assigned to the office of Plymouth District Attorney Timothy J. Cruz have concluded that foul play was not involved. The two men had apparently left Kingston Harbor and were heading to Plymouth Harbor when the boat started taking on water about 2 miles east of their destination, authorities said. Carlson put out a distress call at 11:22 p.m. Tuesday, alerting authorities that the boat was taking on water, according to the Coat Guard and the Plymouth harbormaster. Around 1 a.m. yesterday, a worried friend of the men waiting for them at Plymouth Harbor told authorities about their route, helping rescue crews narrow their search. At 2 a.m., a Coast Guard boat found Carlson clinging to the buoy. The Jayhawk spotted Hanson about a half hour later. Both wore lifejackets but apparently suffered from the cold of the night. Air temperature was 46 degrees with winds of about 5 miles per hour, and water temperature was 57 degrees. Keith Hanson said Carlson told him that he was able to grab a buoy and that Hanson was alongside him, but at one point he seemed to be swallowing water and showed symptoms of hypothermia. He just kind of slipped away, Hansons father said. Were at a loss for words. Hanson was about to graduate from Massasoit Community College and was on the civil service list to become a Kingston firefighter, his father said. He drove an ambulance for Exodus Mountain Inc. of Brockton and was preparing to take a paramedic exam. He also worked as a security guard at the Hanover Mall.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

Actually in each an every one of those scout drowning SSD was not followed. and the point of posting them was to show that even a simple google search reveals each year 1-2 scouts die because they or their leaders do not follow SSD or safety afloat. The only one that even came close was the Lake Huron drowning Lake Huron Drowning The were swimming in a designated swim area and thus did not need to set up roped areas. But it's a pretty safe bet they did not do buddy checks. The article implies there were no lifeguards. As for the rest, CLEARLY the drowning occurred because a scout or scout leader was not following SSD. I think they deserve a spin off thread. Which I'll do in about an hour. A 20-foot diameter swimming hole is one thing. Lake Huron, the Atlantic ocean etc. are different. If that makes me a hard-butt then so be it. I'm a hard-butt but fact is scouts die every eyar because they or their leaders do not follow SSD. We are supposed to be teaching these kids not killing them.

Anyway SSscout, maybe I am missing something, but I really don't "get" what you did. SMT set up a basically safe swimming area and, because the entire swimming hole was quite small, he ran a safe swim (albeit one that was technically non-compliant with BSA standards.) I don't want to rush to judgement but it seems to me like yo are saying "BSA rules are stupid and we should make up our own as we go along. .. basically you can set up a couple lifeguards and swim however you want." I can certainly imagine SM's holding such view, but I wonder - is that REALLY the view that you hold? (I may have misunderstood), - if you really hold such a view, why would you post it on a scouting website?