Lem

Are you and your husband opposed to knives or guns? I ask this because I think much of what you described of the behavior of this child is not necessarily disturbed or wrong-headed. Penguins are pretty ripe for boys to gag about shooting. And a craft project in which boys are told to make penguins from soda bottles would have lead me to violent thoughts as a second, third or fourth grader. He has a knife collection? Cool. Collecting is a sign of intelligence. And knives are a really interesting thing to collect. What is wrong with that? Sounds like an opportunity to go over Blade safety and Tot'n Chip check offs. Killing animals? Last time I checked it is a pretty common activity. We harvest dear and game and slaughter animals on industrial scale daily. So how is this kid not normal? Humans are killers. I was impressed that the boys actually expressed out loud his wishes to break the church windows. I would have said, "When we find the windows broken, we'll know whose parents to call to pay for new ones." And then spoken about how breaking church windows is un-scout-like behavior and why. Everything this kid does seem to me to bring out occasions for teaching. Is he a disturbance? Is he creating a dangerous and anxious environment for the boys (or just for you and your husband)? Is he liked by the other boys- or does he seem pathologically not to care what others think of him? Is he medicated? Does he suffer from Aspergers syndrome? From what I have read- this seems like the kind of kid that is perfect for scouting group that gets out doors a lot and is physical. Not doing craft projects in Church basements. Good Luck! Jeff

The Church has a very long history of Priests starting Schools for wayward boys, from Don Bosco and Father Flannigan to the French Scouter/Priest Jacques Sevin. All these men were never considered, as far as I know, as creepy. Ancient Romans thought boys should be raised by their fathers and were tutored by Greek Slaves. Boys and young men have always posed a special problem for societies. Scouting is one of many movements and sets of solutions to aide in the transition from boys into men. I personally think that apprenticeships were pretty ingenious. I think we have gotten pretty soft with kids. I hear parents all the time saying how they need to cut this activity or that one because their kids are way too busy. They may be busy- but they are definitely not being over-worked. Standards are falling at the same time that schedules are being filled. Busy work substitutes for quality and quantifiable experiences. I meet plenty of creepy parents and creepy kids. Single or childless men do not have a monopoly on this trait. I think scouting is too easy and some times celebrates mediocrity to a creepy degree. Jeff

Bugles Across America http://xeml.buglesacrossamerica.org/index.xeml They have donated bugles to Boy Scout Troops in the past. Tom Day is the fella you want to speak to. Good bugles- both BSA old issue and Army Issue. Jeff

It seems that in any organization there is the established SOP and then there are the unofficial pecking orders. In sports the coaches and adult assistants are given a fair amount of respect by the players- (more than say the usual youth - adult relationship). In the Young Marines and Junior ROTC I have heard they establish a model similar to the armed forces in terms of chain of command and learning the parlance of the respective services. I was in Air Force ROTC back in the 1980s and that was certainly the model. And I am sure that all these various organizations have another informal established set of relationships that are based on friendships, cliques, mutual respect and the flip side. This is why the idea of teamwork is so stressed when these various units are training- so when the situation is professional, the baser instincts of the young people are put on hold and the training takes over. I think the Patrol model may not work in the organizations I mentioned. Perhaps the patrol method only works in scouting. But as I have stated in earlier posts, I am not really sure that BSA has a rubric for recognizing and grading leadership, applied training, and the like. The default reaction seems to always fall back to well as long as the 12 laws are being learned scouting is doing its job. The Military and Athletic organizations are all based on the model of professionalism and training for an end-game- whether that be victory in the field or in the battlefield. I am not sure what winning is in Scouts. That may be the problem- winning is a nebulous or amorphous concept when reading the posts from the various scouters. Maybe all this soul searching and navel gazing is due to the fact that we really are not dealing with the same reality and National does not mandate a very firm and structures SOP. Scoutmasters are told that they are scoutmasters but not scouts, and master of what? They are not to be the master of the scouts- that is the patrol leader. But how does this work? How would this work in any other situation where results were demanded? Where would the accountability lie? I think, folks, that the model is broken. Jeff

Has anyone had the opportunity to see the current training DVD for scoutmasters (if it is current- it seems dated)?? In it there is a Boy Scout Troop and two adults, one a scoutmaster(he is an African American) and a Caucasian man training to be a scoutmaster. It is a very strange video. The acting is pretty stiff. But the way the scouts are behaving seems so unnatural to the boys I have ever experienced (both good and not). I had gone along with a friend who was getting "trained" to offer him comapny and support. He wanted me to get a feel for the scouting thing and thought that I might think about volunteering as a BSA leader. I was pretty put off by the power point presentations the trainers had to offer, and the arguments for the marvels of boy-leadership. I knew from that experience that I was not of the stuff of scoutmasters. But I am pretty sure that if that video were ever shown to most boys, they would run as fast as they could from scouting. Now you would think that if BSA were making a training video showing Scouts in action, they would have scouted around" and located an "ideal Troop". This outfit in the video were nice enough boys, but they seemed kind of medicated. Al their activities were taking place in what seemed like a Community center (and not the woods where you might expect scouts). The Caucasian newbie scoutmaster seemed pretty effeminate. I think BSA would be best served showing Fred MacMurray in action than the clowns in those videos. It made me keep thinking- what is BSA selling- and what is the exemplar of scouting? Jeff

It seems that there are a lot more organizations and activities for youth today than when I was a kid. But keeping the kids busy isn't always benign is it? I see families become themed around their children's activities, whether it is music, soccer, scouting, Church, horses, etc. The goals of our faith and of scouting and of just plain good parenting are united around common themes. If one family sets its course for Olympic Gymnastics, they can work into that some great lessons that round out the youth and family culture. The same can be said for the other activities I listed above. Scouting is a one hundred year old movement, based on some 100 year old ideas- and some new ones along the way. But the timeless values of stewardship, service, leadership, self-reliance, are embedded into the DNA of our culture and our faith-traditions. It is the old poor skinned cat argument. You can indeed raise children well within the structure and traditions of the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts, 4-H, Judaism, etc.. Pappy chose to go with Young Marines. Maybe Lisabob will find some organization or group that will meet her familys goals and mission. The problem arises I think, when we try to imagine a scouting that should be all things for all kids ( and Scouters). There seems to be, at times, a sense that scouting is "The Way" in an orthodox sense. This is of course silly. Scouting is a way, one of many ways. With good parents, and a tradition and authority structure that gives form to a child's world, they can become good productive citizens. And in many respects, we have seen people come from the seemingly worst case scenarios of childhood and rise in corporate America, in the Church, in politics. Christians would argue that it is through God's grace that we achieve faith and wisdom and charity- not the other way around. I think Lisabob will find her way because she loves her son and seems a pretty tenacious character. The tenacity of parents is our best hope as a people and a nation. Jeff (This message has been edited by Lem)

One example that comes to mind is football as it is played in the Middle School and high school years. There is a team captain, or captains, and on the teams I played for the coaches usually gave some discretion to the captains to run options and the like. Also- a good deal of the camaraderie and morale stemmed from the captains and other leaders amongst the lineman and special teams. But you couldn't expect the players to put themselves through the rigors of two a day preseason practices. This grueling training regime was met out by adult coaches. But by the start of the season, all the training was pretty much conducted by the captains. Sorry to bring up a model that relies on competition. But team and individual sports work because humans enjoy competing- even in purely playful fashion. And where in the scout laws is competition over-ruled- Is it unfriendly- unhelpful, unkind, unclean, discourteous, cowardly, untrustworthy, disloyal, unhelpful, disobedient, uncheerful, wasteful, irreverent to be competitive? It seems that it is a universal human trait, whether in Native America culture, or European and the rest, that humans love to compete. To suggest that scouting fulfills the need for boys to seek sanctuary from competition is bizarre and not in keeping with the ideals of Baden Powell. For goodness sake, I have seen early scout manuals that demonstrate the methods for scouts to fight with quarter staffs. You can't get more competitive than martial arts. And what fun!! How on earth to you expect boys to learn archery or shooting and not want to compete against each other- I mean come on!! Hunting, trapping, fishing, exploring, all involve results. What scout is the most observant of his surroundings? What scout is the best tracker, the best shot, the best fire starter in a wet and cold wood, the most safety minded, the most daring, the best knots man, the strongest rower, etc? Look to martial arts for a suggestion of how to matriculate youth. They earn degrees, and they more they matriculate up the ladder through the assessment of skills, the more instruction and leadership they participate in. It is highly ritualized, and the scout laws of obedience and the like are very much present. I maintain that if BSA offered special training to scouts who exhibit superior skills and talents, it would be enticing to boys. Boys want to be a part of an elite group- or at least know that they there are such groups out there. TO deny this in our human nature is folly. Jeff

I didn't bring up the Do your best stuff. I wouldn't have. I don't like it. I know that the oath says DUTY. But if you want to have a litmus or screening test to join in on this forum go ahead scouter. I'm game. Jeff

I suppose I am an interested bystander to the scouting movement. My daughter is in a GS group. I have no interest in putting my boys in scouting for the reasons I have mentioned already. Do you have to be a registered Scouter to be on this forum? I would hope that the ideas I offer on this site can stand on their own, and that the other members of the forum can think for themselves and weigh ideas from wherever the source. But sure, if you want to say to me, "unless you have walked in a scouter's shoes, then don't comment on scouting"- go ahead. But in my humble opinion, that line of reasoning isn't well reasoned. Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)

TwoXForr, You make a great argument for how we should keep kids with physical,medical, and mental conditions involved in scouting e.g. By making other scouts stay at their level. But at whose expense? SHould the same argument apply in schools? Varisty for all? Maybe you have articulated the reason why so many scout troops look and feel like the Special Olympics. I am not an all or nothing guy. I suggested that my ideas be an option, a choice, for those boys who want to go farther than the bare minumum requirements. Why does the scouting movement have to be a Homogenious organization? Isn't it enough that it has a total Monopoly on the Scouting Movement in our Nation? I think the same problems intrinsic in public schooling have been infecting scouting. Egality at the sake of excellence. And it is you who are articulating an all or nothing argument, not I. You are so compeptitive you want NO competition. THis, to my thinking, is the crux of the problem with the institutional prejudices behind many of the scouters on this forum. "Scouting isn't broke- so quit offereing us suggestions on how to fix it." How is that a useful working premise for any situation? All it prepares the organization for is blindness and drift and catastrophe. Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)

Eagle 77, I have a closet of nightmare stories from my childhood of competition and father's living vicariously through their sons run amuck as well. We all probably do to some extent. (Not to minimize your valiant efforts to be a great father to your son). But why not allow scouts to have a sense of quantification in terms of how what they are doing relates to other scouts, whether it is physical, mental, or moral accomplishments? Scouting seems to bandy about the idea of QUALITY for its scouters- and the measure is both numbers and following the game plan of training. Why not allow scouters and scouts to have the opportunities to know nationally what other scouts are proficient at? Is this so bad? Is there room for a Scout of the Year, or a troop or pack of the year? Could a measure of interesting criteria be generated that National could give out awards for the best archers, knot tiers, etcetera?? I think that "Doing your best" can turn into a bromide for mediocrity. "I did my best coach." "Ok, well today your best is a 24 minute mile. Great kid! Now lets work towards shaving off a minute by next meeting." Isn't that reasonable? Yes!- It is actually in the BSA Handbook that scouts should improve their fitness scores. So why not improve their scores in other area? For instance, skills like tent pitching and fire making can always be improved upon, so can navigation. Why can't scores be given for proficiencies in these areas beyond basic (very basic) knowledge.? In terms of scouts, if a kid cant site a bb gun, -- first things first. But allowing him to know how good a good shot is is just plain fair and right. Otherwise- what do they know what to shoot for other than personal their best? If personal best is the meter by which all scouting is based, (which I think is both untrue and stupid), then it will certainly be an unattractive organization. Your personal best in terms of ethics is also an interesting idea. Aren't we given examples of what is considered exemplary ethical behavior? Don't we give ourselves as Christians the model of Jesus Christ as how we should live our life? Isn't that setting an impossible ethical and moral goal? (To a Christian they would say 'Yes" But Christ told us that nothing is impossible for God the Father.") So I say that there will be boys who want the bar set high. What scout wouldn't want to know who has the highest score of pushups, mile run, or the most hiking miles logged? Why can't we admit that athleticism to some degree in scouting would be beneficial. One complaint I have heard about scouting is that they have great values in their law and oath, but the follow through is pretty namby pamby. Strength in Body, Awakeness in Mind, and Straightness in Morality require work and effort and knowledge of how you stand amongst the pack and the troop and the body as a whole. Elite Patrols is a concept I think scouts might find interesting. Quit protecting kids from exploring the depth and beauty of excellence. Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)

Good question TwoX4, Maybe, since we are encouraging the boys to be a boy-lead or run organization, we make this a function of the will of the patrol. If a patrol were to be given the choice or the option to form a competitive team of say marksmanship, or archery, or some test of climbing or kayaking skills (I did suggest keep them activities that relate to scouting), then let the boys choose for themselves. If there were real rewards for excellence in a skill, and not just a MB that says I passed a proficiency test (if even that), then I think you might tap into a vein of youthful enthusiasm. Why not have a national competition that posts the scores of all scouts participating. Who can demonstrate all the knots the quickest? What scout has the fasted Morse code speed as a ham radio operator? Who is the best shot in archery and rifle? These can be positive things for scouts to be aware of. They can learn just how proficient they can become in an area. But hey. It was only a suggestion (like being physically strong (and or fit)). I thought you guys said that there is nothing wrong with the way scouting is being conducted- so why change it? In terms of time? Let them do it on the own patrol time- get a parent sponsor- If they want it enough they will make time. Jeff

Comparing Boy Scouts to other youth programs is not invalid. Especially when you fellas keep talking about making scouting "fun". If you are looking for what boys find fun, then look, and don't convince yourself that everything other than scouting is nothing to learn from. Obviously Baden Powell and Daniel Beard and Ernst Seton got their ideas from places other than scouting. The military comes to mind. And they certainly were pretty creative and for a time at least pretty divergent on some of there views about how best to make the movent go forward. If you think the program isn't broken, then I guess that is the camp you're in. But if scouting isn't broken now- then maybe it was never right to begin with. And I don't think that is true. I think that allowing scouts to compete in core events and to form inter district/council and national leagues of scout-like sports would be a way of insprirng adults and kids to get involved. Geo-caching is pretty popular, so are exterme sports, triatholons, archery, and shooting. If you offered cash prizes and scholarship prizes for scouts who achieve in these contests you might get interest. COMPETITION not as mandate but as an option. Let the boys choose if they want to compete. They might surprise you. And you might build numbers and vitality in your program.

I have a problem I guess with the idea of "win win" activities. My kids are involved pretty heavily in music. In music, whether it be for "enjoyment" and or "performance" or whatever- it is music, and it is either done well or it isn't. WInning in this context is doing well. Music competitons help hone the kids' performance and musical skills and it gives them an idea of who the other kids are out their and how they stack up to them. THis has pros and cons- but mostly pros. Becasue it is a form of honesty. Competition is not an evil- it is can be cruel- but only usually when kids are given false expectations. And competition exists whenther it is just competiting against a former score- or other people's scores. Kids really do want to know the statisitcs on things like RBI's and World records and such, and being known as the fastest knot tier, or the best archer or marksman or whatever would be interesting to kids. WHy doesn't scouting generate its own stars while they are still in scouting? Scouting seems weak and anemic to adults for this and other reasons- and not just becasue they want immediate gratification. If it were true that everyone wants immediate gratification then sports and music would also be on a decline- and they certainly are not. Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)

If scouting is supposed to be about fun and learning then I wold probably suspend the scouting ideals portion- which requires of scouts sacrifice and a prejudice toward God and Country. Yeh, and eating disorders, in my book, are up there with the deadly sin of gluttony and other forms of abuse. Be Prepared! Be prepared for what---Diabetes and a stroke? Being an example of the scouting ideals is as superfiscial as it is substantial. WHy NOT comapre Scouting to other youth activites- especially if they are growing in size and popularity. Maybe scouters can learn from others and not just from other scouters. Excellence is a contagious quality. Going on a diet, walking a few miles a day, laying of the camp cooking, can annd should be a part of the ethic of scouters. They should make scouting look good and healthy and vital. Jeff

Do you think that Boy and Cub Scouting are perceived any more by anyone to be a program embracing any idea of elitism? We have seen the defense of the morbidly obese as mentors, and we have seen the anger that arises when the program is criticized. We see that the kids don't seem so proud to wear their scout uniforms, when in fact we see kids every day proud to wear around their soccer pajamas, sports jerseys, and camouflage hunting or militaryesque cloths from Wal-Mart. It seems that kids are not so much into non-conforming and being un-uniform as they are pretty universally put off by something about what scouting has become. And I have to agree that rotund men and women have issues that they have not addressed. And they should get a handle on it if not for themselves, then for the idea of being a role model. Unless you think we want to send the message to our young men that scouting really doesnt take too seriously its program and its talk about physical fitness. Youth Wrestlers are proud, and little leaguers are proud, and kids that serve in the student senate are proud, and Varsity athletes are totally psyched about what they do and who they represent. There is obviously a lot of elitism in the schools. And our culture universally applauds this and rewards this and sees it as a sign of national and community and individual and family health. We all recognize the excellence of the Olympic competitors. Does scouts court the idea of a scout sponsored Olympic training program for such sports that drift into its mission and outdoor adventure- like bi-athletes, for instance?? So why the shame about scouting??? Maybe the kids understand something we adults are overlooking: That they want to be given a challenge and take to risk of losing to an opponent. They want to know their score- and that the score means something. Why isn't there a best troop? Why aren't there all state and all nation troops and Districts? Or are there? It seems like the world is just passing scouting by, and the scouters are either oblivious, indifferent, or angry and frustrated. Jeff (This message has been edited by Lem)

Mornin Fellas, In our area, I know of one troop that puts most of their efforts into COPE and climbing stuff. Another plays frisbee alot. One spends a great deal of time in a church gym at night with their noses in the manual. There are no or at least very few district wide events for the scouts except for derbies and klondikes. So the idea that there is some homogenous scouting experience out their is kind of foolish. And uniforms are all way on the down low as well. Most scout units are starting to look like all boy venture units. And a lot of the scouters that I have spoken with in the past seem to try and sell scouting to boys by speaking to them of all the stuff that may only happen at council camps, like canoing, bb and rifles, archery, etc. I have met boys who joined in September, waited all year for the promise to stand in line to shoot bb guns for a total of five or ten minutes. Most of the adults I know don't like camping and outdoor wilderness activities- and that prejudice usually will be givien to the boys over time. So Scouting is a tough sell. But so is bible school. And the fella who made the admition that scouting is well suited for geeks ought to at least be commended for his honesty. But my sons really don't want to think of themselves as geeks. They play classical music, are into RC airplanes and scuba and starwars and alot of boy stuff are are not intrested in sports too much. But they admire grit and toughness too. And their friends tell me that when they were in scouting, it was so much "girlish stuff" that they got pretty bored. Also- the parents that my wife and I know have almost universally been dissappointed with the scouting expereince, telling us that they found it weird and committeeish. Jeff

Morning guys, I suppose this could be another random spin-off thought, but your last comment brought it to mind. My wife, who has work in Human Resources for twenty years in some very large industries, has found that being an Eagle Scout does not have really any meaning any more from her perspective. She has told me that conversations that she has had with presidents and senior executives in her current company, a few of which were Life and Eagle scouts, that they recognize that BSA is not what it once was, and that being an Eagle scout is not likely to indicate performance one way or another. Their theory, she tells me, is that the culture of helicopter parents who closely monitor their children development and successes in school and sports have had their effect on scouting, and that boys are now rushed through their scouting experience to get their eagle on the way to land that coveted spot at a prestigious State university or private college. Bottom line, Scouting and Eagle are losing their perceived value in the work force (at least the circles my wife has experienced). Are their statistics or poles conducted to monitor the rates of success of former scouts and eagles in business and the adult world? Such as rates of divorce, military service, higher political office, etc. This would probably be helpful for recruiting to parents of the relative merits of the program. I have seen the lists of former famous boy scouts, but over a hundred years of existence, these lists seem thin and lack a little meaning. Jeff

Hi Stosh, Its funny John in KC should mention Pappy and his disregard for leave no trace. (Though if I read my Pappy correctly he had managed to get his little group of scouts onto some private land to play lumberjack). My daughter retuned last weekend from a Girl Scout overnight pretty darned upset (My wife , who chaperoned wasnt too happy either). Apparently the new unit leader, a woman with a long history in Boy Scout leadership, was yelling at the girls all Saturday for various things and haranguing the moms for not having taught the girls about leave no trace, a concept apparently very near and dear to this womans heart. My daughter at one point, with a few other girls, were playfully chasing after a deer they had spooted a few dozen or so yards away, and the unit leader screamed that she and her friends were negatively impacting the environment. On another occasion, my daughter had found a small pretty rock along a trail that she wanted to keep and bring to show her brothers, (who collect rocks and other natural objects they find on their hikes) and she was scolded by this same "leader"" and told to put the rock back where she found it. This is unbelievable political correctness run amuck. I can tell you that my wife and a few of the other moms were pretty darned unimpressed with this woman. And she is without question the most highly trained" scout leader this school girl scout and brownie unit has ever had. And Bob White, I knew you might jump in to this one. Sometimes I think so called "scouters" love the program more than they love the boy and the potential man that they can become. There is a new book out there, that Dangerous Book for Boys. My boys absolutely love it. They are making paper airplanes, and designing a tree fort, and today they asked me to help them fold a piece of paper into a water bomb. You know, it seems to me that working with boys involves plain common sense. And I think a lot of scouters have forgotten what it means to be a boy. I'm not suggesting that you have Bob, but reading all your posts I get the feeling that your pretty hard-headed about the wrong thing. I really do suspect that if Powell were alive today he might not agree with your uncompromising stance on the perfection of the program, and he might suspect that you open your eyes a little. If I have learned anything from a lot of you fellas, it is that when scouting is done right it is a game- It is played. I get that. I think boys would get that. My sons and my daughter like games and like to do things adults like to do too. It just seems that Cub Scouting has turned into kind of a weird mediocre program in our parts. And Boy Scouting is practically nonexistent. Scouts don't wear the uniforms. One church has a group of scouts that just get together and play Frisbee and they combine this with their church male youth group. Another unit just gathers in a Church gym and practices knots and checks off stuff in their scout manuals. Holy Cow. I can tell you that scouting in our community is mostly a dirty word. And that seems criminal. And I am sick of believing that it is because the fullness and perfection of the scouting promise is not being delivered because lazy or ill-intentioned adults are not getting the proper training. I have met some of these professional scouter fellas at Rotary meetings and other community events in my town, and I can tell you that they are some pretty creepy fellows. Friends of mine in the business and professional communities do not understand what has happened to the scouting movement. They are pretty convinced that it is dying. And they will have nothing to do with it. For What Its Worth And Gold Winger - my boys would love to go on a 10 mile hike. Troops around here only hike once or twice a year at best. And cub scouts hardly ever go outside. So we just hike. Jeff

Hi Stosh, It seems that at least a couple of the regular defenders of the BSA status quos I keep reading on this site might argue that there ain't nothing wrong with the program, that instead the problems are with those folks who aren't getting the proper BSA training. That if they follow the program, they will see the results, and their units will grow and thrive. But I don't really see that this is necessarily true. It seems to me that there is a little bit of disconnect going on between BSA and boys - I don't mean in terms of BSA having to cow-tow to popular culture and its vulgarities that pull boys away from wholesome activities- but if you look at what good boys are getting involved with I think you'll get an idea. Why do sports and games seem to resonate so much with boys? Why are boys attracted to contact activities? Why do boys like to flirt with danger? Why do boys want to fantasize about being heroes and villains and role play these types of characters? Why are boys both attracted to being free from parental constraint and yet eager to join an organization that will give them identity and a purpose? Why do boys get into gangs? I think, from what my kids and their friends tell me, is that scouting can be fun, but mostly it is really dull and really "cheesy". They tell me that moms don't get boys, and that cub scouts was mostly like school. My older boy and his buddies just shudder at the idea of wearing scout uniforms and belonging to the group in our town. They tell me that the scouts are mostly "rejects", who have a lot of personality issues and don't seem to fit into anything else at school. This seems a dirty shame, because from what I can tell, scouting seems to at least suggest that it could be a real adventure. I am a little confused as to why it seems to so often manifest itself as motley crews of un-uniformed sloppy kids and often times extremely over-weight scout leaders. It seems that BSA has drifted far from those old posters of the vital scoutmaster and the perky scouts in the woods. Maybe scouting needs to reassess its relevance in the boy's life. You know- I really don't get a sense in BSA of a human- in touch, personalilty of leadership. For all the talk of leadership, you would think that BSA would attempt to get out the PSA's and lead. Get a national spokesman and grab the headlines. Something. I was a scout back in the early 80's, but I don't really get scouting anymore. Jeff

Hi Ya Fellas, It seems to me that Left or Right, soldiering and military matters are a bit transcendent to politics and whatever your particular economic theory. You get the goose-steppers in North Korea and Nazi rallies, and the silent drill team at Arlington. There is a beauty in martial discipline that appeals to most people. We look on and marvel at the bravery of Spartans whose culture in many ways we would judge abhorant to our 21st century sensibilities. Even the word 'exercise' comes from the Roman Latin word for Army. We live in a martial civilization (you can argue that these two terms are a coexisting organism and cannot exist without the other). The vocation or at least fascination in things military may be genetically hardwired in many of us. Soldiering and war craft dominate the shelves at book stores, many cable TV shows, and even in supposedly leftie Hollywood. Maybe Patton was right, and maybe he wasn't, but from where I can tell, as a kid I sure did like playing the soldier and the friends I hung with did too. And judging today from the new "sports" of laser tag and paintball and the violence and mayhem children are perpetuating in video games, and the continued popularity of cadet corps around the world, there are plenty of young people who share an interest in military organizations or at least in things to do with violent competition. I think the anti-military out-look, especially the anti-American military, came out among left-leaning folks in the 1960's. a manifestation of the 1960's. Perhaps it was the admixture of leftist folk singers, bohemian Marx-reading college students, and hardcore socialist soviet intellectuals that lead to the blanket loathing of American police and military and other authority figures. But the hypocrisy on the left can continue to be seen in the fascination and admiration of Che Guevarra and Fidel Castros and Black Panthers. These guys were pretty hard-core militant and continue to be the celebrities of a lot of supposedly "anti-military" and especially anti youth-military lefties. Soldiering and an interest in soldiering are neither unhealthy nor are they unnatural. A lot can be learned (especially a lot of the core skills in traditional scout craft) when playing so called "war games". But it is completely legitimate to be authentically uninterested in soldiering and things military, and it is a perfectly legitimate point of view to think that a scouting organizati0n should be allowed to promote an identity that is non-military. The trick with scouting is that it has a genesis, a vernacular, and a skill set, that is very much martial in many respects. So there will continue to be correspondence with scouting and other organizations like cadet corps and jrotc and the like. It is nice to see that our American youth have so many options. But lets not belittle the folks who want to opt for an organization that enjoys a little marching and shooting and military culture. After all, mankinds organization towards military defence and its cultivation of martial arts is as much a part of our heritage as is our language, political institutions, religious identity, and our artistic and scientific legacy. Lem