leader1118

Nike - Thank you for your idea of giving it to the DE. She lives nowhere near me, but I could drop it off at her office in the council office. Can't bring it to the CO b/c they don't have their own building. The President of the CO would want nothing to do with it and I'm not sure where he lives. We live in a very big suburb of Chicago, IL. ScoutNut - I never mentioned that I'd be "smarmy" as the new CM. I was simply stating that after asking, for months, for people to come and pick up some things, with no results, I'm tempted to just leave it out for them. It should be evident by now that I'm not stooping to their levels, but it is tempting to do so b/c they make it look so simple. I'm VERY aware it all belongs to the pack and not me. If it was mine, it'd be gone already! The reason why this is all in our garage in the first place is b/c other people want to park their cars in their garages and won't give up space to store a box or two. None of our cars have ever seen the inside of our garage and we've been here over 5 years. I appreciate everyone's input, but please don't make me out to be the bad person. I'm just tired of them taking advantage of our whole family and am looking for input to help me figure out the best way to get out of all of this. I know there's a lot of years in scouting on this site and more people have probably been through something similar than who'd like to admit. I realize things like this happen in other groups in the "outside" world. I'm a former teacher and politics run rampant in school buildings. I've worked in offices and we all know it's there too. It just saddens me to think that something as important as scouting has been brought to this. I honestly thought I might be one of those "lifer" moms, but if it's not to meant to be, than that is the way it'll be. I will non-leader volunteer and try to be happy there. Scouting is too important for me to drop it completely (it's almost an addiction, you know?)

I like the idea of dropping off where they meet. However, I don't know when their first meeting will be. They have them at our school. I know they're on Tues. nights, but not sure when. The man I tried to remove told the whole pack that when he was removed, he wanted everything out of his garage that was "scout related by July 15 or he would put it on the curb for other people to take or for the garbage day". We have a LOT more in our garage than he did. A lot of the stuff we have, membership needs, but the membership person walked out on them, so there's no person like that to hand it to. One person (man who used to be CM)is still talking to us and us to him, but he doesn't want the stuff b/c now he's "only a Tiger DL". He doesn't want any more involvement. I don't want to give them an ultimatum, but our garage has been their storage area for about 4-5 years now. It's time they come and get this stuff. We've been asking people to take it since the beginning of last year, knowing we'd be done this spring. No one ever offers to take it. Not all of it is big even: signs for roundup, apps, info, paper goods, craft supplies, etc. Some are big, but the little things could be taken and stored easily. I just want to be done with it and not have to deal with any of this anymore. As far as the earlier comment about misunderstanding what the man said and poor communication, verbal abuse is verbal abuse. NO ONE should EVER be talked to in the fashion he did to me. It's not professional or polite for that matter. I didn't call to fight, but he wanted to fight with me and as he kept yelling and yelling, I became scared. This man is physically huge (6'7") and has scared some of the moms in our pack. I know most of you are probably men who are reading this, but ladies, if you've ever been physically, mentally, or emotionally overtaken by a man, you can understand how I felt on the phone with this person. I couldn't leave my house for 2 days. (He is ex-Air Force MP and still has guns, etc. in his house) I was that scared of him. That's how violent he was on the phone. Had he called the next day and explained he was having a bad day, didn't mean to raise his voice, etc., maybe I would've gone easier on him. However, my point is that I didn't want that side of him to "pop" out at a child or parent, especially another mom. His temper has come out before to some of the men, but never to this extent. (didn't find that out until later...) So yes, there are 2 sides to every issue. But no one in the pack (w/exception of my son's leader) asked me what happened. Everyone read his letter, took his word for it, and went from there. When he wrote his letter of "apology and explanation of yelling", he admitted to overreacting, yelling so loud neighbors 2 doors down could hear him, and saying things he shouldn't have said. Funny thing, he didn't send the letter to me. My husband got it with the other leaders. Not the whole pack, so they never saw his admission. He copied our DE though, although she didn't see the first letter he wrote. The guy is just smarmy and shouldn't be in a leadership position. Case closed.

Thanks everyone. I know that not all volunteers are bad. I love volunteers! I'm in other groups and am amazed by how dedicated some can be. It's just upseting when there are volunteers who can ruin the experience for others involved. (Kind of like PTA Scouting volunteers are dedicated and lovely people for the most part. I'm amazed by how some people still stay in even after their own scout is long gone, in college, etc. I've seen people in for 50 years! It's wonderful. I know people are very giving and great. However, people like the ones I've been dealing with just leave a bad taste in your mouth, you know? I sincerely do hope that the next pack will be organized well and like to have fun. I always loved doing service projects and the special outings. I hope they will like that too. We only have a few months left and then we're off to BS. Not sure what that will hold for us, but I think that will be more of a dad/son thing, mom will steer clear of things unless food is needed or something. I'm not even sure what BS requires yet! I love to help, so I just need to find a happy medium. In the meantime, I plan on letting this pack we're leaving do their thing, sink or swim, on its own. We still have a ton of their things in our garage that someone needs to come and get. We've told them that, but they haven't contacted us about it. Any suggestions on what to do with it all? Considering what we've been through, the "bad" side of me wants to put it out on the curb the day before trash day and see what happens. But, the "good" side says to be a scout and be fair. It would be nice to have our garage back though! Suggestions? Thanks to all!

Thank you all for your encouraging words. Glad to know not everyone thinks I'm crazy. I've heard so many awful things lately, I started to doubt my ability to be a good leader or a good person for that matter. I know there are parents in the pack who are upset about the whole thing and think I was right for removing him. Of course, I don't know if they realize he's been "promoted" yet. Some of them have already asked where we're going. One of the W2 boys are completing leaving due to how we've been treated and she doesn't want her son exposed to that. She said that scouting should be fair, honest, and fun. People who have put their hearts and souls into it should be treated well, not stepped on, harassed, and slandered all over the internet to dozens of families. It is sad for the kids. All of those parents are going to have to come up with something to tell them when they don't see us or the other families who are leaving at the same. I never wrote a note to the whole pack about any of this. I didn't want to lower to their level. My husband wrote the note about our resignations. I just don't have the heart to tell everyone about what happened and start pointing fingers. I feel it's unprofessional and immature. (Leaders should be professional and mature, right???) If any of them ask me, I've explained my side. Otherwise, I'm keeping to myself. Just the thought of any of this or even seeing a scouting symbol or looking at my scouting stuff I worked so hard on for the fall makes me ill. Guess I need to find something new to keep me busy. Scouting has been my life for 5 years. It's been very hard to fill the void this has caused. I just need to concentrate on getting my son through to Boy Scouts, if he still wants to go. (He's wanted to quit since this has all happened) He's my focus now. Thanks again for your support and encouragement. It means a lot, although we're all strangers, b/c you're all scouters too. Take care all!

Oh, you will all LOVE this turn of events: I sent the man the letter certified mail. The next day, he wrote a very slanderous letter TO THE ENTIRE PACK about how he has been removed (at the end he says he resigns). He thinks it's b/c he gave fishing poles out to people. Didn't seem to cross his mind that he yelled at me and verbally abused me on more than one occassion, went against committee agreements, and was taking advantage of power he thought he had. Within 5 min, our Webelos leader wrote a short note TO THE WHOLE PACK about how he supports him and it's a travesty that he was removed. Needless to say, I was very upset, but figured I had the support of the DE, UC, Field Dir., and Charter behind me. (Of course, my name was the only one on the letter) I was very upset that people were actually believing this liar! My husband reassured me that certain people in the pack would at least ask for my side of the story before jumping to conclusions about the whole thing. Well, our treasurer, whom I've known for 5 years, recruited her son, have done baby showers, b-days, etc. with and considered her whole family close personal friends, wrote the worst note of all. She called me selfish, didn't know what I was doing, she thinks that I'm an awful scout, etc. She concluded by saying that she "better be careful what she says or the COR might remove her too". This letter hit me hard. Maybe there's no crying in scouts, but I was hysterical after this letter. She's always fair to everyone and wants to know both sides before making a decision about something. Apparently not this time. Again, it WAS SENT OUT TO THE ENTIRE PACK. Very embarassing since everyone knows we were close friends. I wrote her back (only her)and let her know how I felt. Apparently didn't affect her b/c haven't heard from her since. After a few days of the slander, my husband and I had enough and resigned our positions. We couldn't take it anymore and it was very clear that no matter what I thought or why I removed him (still, no one had asked why, incl. the man I removed). I talked to the the FD (only one who ever personally replies to me out of that group) and explained why I had to leave. He understood and said they were still going to hold the meeting to see who they could pull from the ranks. Well, they managed to get a CC, new Tiger Leader (former CM), a COR who is in the Charter and a former BS leader. They still didn't have a CM. But, before the meeting started, the man I removed (which they all told me to do) stood up and said that he had done nothing wrong and didn't understand why he was removed in the first place, he was sorry, blah, blah. (Never has told me he was sorry, but told my husband he was sorry and expected him to tell me and copied the DE on it...funny, didn't copy him on first awful letter!) Yup, you guessed it. He is now CUBMASTER! They all tell me to remove him, I do what they want, my life is horrible and I'm a mess for about 5 weeks, and then they promote him b/c they meet him and he says he's sorry. I'm sure he's still smiling from the satisfaction he rec'd when he figured he totally went against me. I just can't believe all of those people above me went along with it. He may have been the only person who volunteered, but he was JUST REMOVED FOR VERBAL ABUSE! Needless to say, we are leaving the pack and going to a more stable pack for the last few months my son has left. I'm never volunteering for anything again with the scouts. I would like to at least enjoy the time my son has left in scouting. It's a shame we have to leave the pack my family started, my son helped to name, and the members were mostly recruited by us. We each had at least 5 positions for things in the pack, so it'll be interesting to see what happens this year with them. I know I say I don't care, but there are still kids there I feel relied on us for things and now we won't be there to help them. I never thought scouting would let me down this much. The man who is now CM, who has no problem yelling and cursing at women who rank above him, is now their leader. It's a sad day.

Thanks again for your advice. As far as him thinking he's CM, the CM just quit a week and a half ago. This behavior has been going on since this spring. The two of them were co-leaders for the Bear den. When the uniform thing and scarf things happened, I asked the CM/leader if he knew about this and he just said, "No, he just showed up with this/just told us this." So the ACM wasn't even conferring with his co-leader/CM. We've decided to mail a registered letter to his house. I told my husband last night that I'm frankly afraid of this man. Not to sound biased against the military by any means, but this man has a stash of guns, rifles, etc. in his home, still has his fatigues on display in the garage on a dummy, etc. That kind of creeps me out. My husband just told me to never answer his calls, open the door, etc. and to call the police for his harrassment. I did send a letter to the Pres. of the charter and have not heard back. Not sure what that means. I might still have to call him and check with him about all of this. I'm sure he'll support me though b/c he's very much "for kids" and would be extremely upset if this man did something like this to him, let alone me. He's a sweet guy and I know him well. I'm sure he'll give his "OK". The council's DE, UC, and the DE's boss are all "discussing" via email what to do with this mess. I'm copied on everything and it seems the only one answering any of them is the boss and me. The UC called the other night, but I was on the other end with the boss and didn't flip over. I need to try and call him when my son isn't around since this upsets him so much. I think we'll remove ACM, send letter to parents about the "state of the pack" with a date for a parents meeting. See what happens at the meeting and go from there. We need this over ASAP. I'm on disability for some health issues I have and all of this is worsening everything. Like someone else on here said, "Cub Scouting is fine until you add the adults." How true that is! Thanks again!

Wow! Thank you all so much for your words of advice. It's amazing how I think I'm reading too much into this mess, only to have most of you agree with what I'm saying. I appreciate your help! My UC called last night and left a message (we had tornadoes going through, so I didn't answer the phone). I'm supposed to call him back and talk to him also. I just hope he doesn't tell me something beyond what the council person told me last night. When I wanted to remove this leader/ACM last year in the spring, he told me to hold off until summer, write bylaws (no, we don't have any b/c I didn't know we were supposed to until that moment-I'm trying to figure all of that out now), and then hold him to them this year. Honestly, I just want the guy removed from ACM. I really don't want him as a Bear leader, but the kids in his den think he's "awesome" and I doubt any parent in that den would step up to help if he had to step down. With my luck, he'd leave with his son and go to another pack and they'd all follow. I hate confrontation, so none of this is what I want to happen! My husband is upset about the whole thing and I thought he'd be more upset when I told him what the jerk said to me. My husband just started a new job and has to drive 100 miles w/o AC every day, so he's pretty exhausted when he gets home. He just told me not to do one more thing for this pack and that we "are done". He's had enough of all of it and I think he's disconnected himself from all of it a few months ago when this same ACM went directly against something the committee agreed upon w/o anyone's permission at a meeting my husband wasn't at (son was sick). It's almost as if the ACM is daring us to either leave or remove him. I believe he thinks we don't have the guts to do it because we're known as the "nice family" and we are usually able to take care of things w/o big issues. This man almost wants the drama. Since so many kids do like him, I feel like they'll all hate us (and maybe my son) when this is all over with. He's definitely the type of guy to make snide comments and jokes at our expense around other parents when we aren't there to defend ourselves. What a scout, eh? Either way, I guess I know he has to be removed. I hate that I have to do it though. Like I said, his yelling occurred over the phone, but it's put me in the position now that I'm scared to see him in person due to aggressive nature. I'm about 5'10" and he's 6'7". I could just hear the fury in his voice the other night and it was just over fishing poles! What happens when I have to tell him he's being removed? The council guy who talked to me last night said that maybe I should let him be a bear leader and just remove him from ACM. However, that means I still have to see him once meetings start up and at outings in the summer. I agree that a parent meeting is needed. We just have to figure out when. I was told to give the parents until xxx and if we don't have the needed positions filled by then, then I will give them info about other packs they can move to. I would like to think they care enough about the pack to help save it, but most of them are so caught up in their lives and work that Cubs is just a place to leave their kid once a week so they get a free hour. They all don't mind helping with "little, once-in-awhile things", but nothing permanent like CC or CM. This whole thing has me so upset. My son didn't want to attend the fishing derby b/c we had out of town guests, but also b/c he just wants to go to Boy Scouts and forget about this pack. He told me he just wants his parents back. What do you say to that? I couldn't think of anything.

Our pack is 2 years old, going into our 3rd year. 8 of us left another pack and started this one in our kids' school so the school could have their own pack. We now have about 26 kids. We have 1 Tiger den, 1 Wolf, 1 Bear, and 2 Web. 2 dens. Here's the issue... The leadership in the pack has been falling apart lately. My husband (CC) and I (COR)are the only people left on the exec. comm. Our Cubmaster resigned about 2 weeks ago. Mostly due to having 4 kids being in the pack this year and not having much spousal support with his volunteer efforts. (He was also the Bear Asst. Leader) My husband, myself, and our treasurer all have W2s and will be crossing with them in the spring. My husband also helps as an ADL for the W2s and wants to continue that position, but would like to leave the CC role. I would like to stop the COR position b/c our own son is telling us that we run too many things and can't spend time with him at events. This is mostly due to the fact that my husband and I usually end up planning all of the events and then have to run them also. Other parents and leaders are very uninvolved, even after giving hints or directly asking for help. Anyway, our AC (and Bears DL) has been consistently doing things this past year to purposely go against pack policies. His den suddenly showed up one night with just t-shirts on and no uniforms. They all have the shirts, but they were told not to wear them that night. When I talked to him about it and asked why, he got in my face (he's 6'7") and told me flat out that I couldn't tell him what to do and he'd do whatever he wanted with his den whenever he wanted to do it. It became a big enough problem that my husband had a meeting with all leaders and they voted on whether or not he could continue doing it. They agreed he could. He's also done other things more recently that offended parents of the Wolf den. When he did this, he went directly against what our committee voted on and decided to do months earlier. By doing this, he again went completely against what we decided as a pack and leaders/comm. members. I am now trying to clean up the mess and make it up to the parents in question. This weekend was our fishing derby. We didn't have money to buy prizes (which he thought we shouldn't have-no competition he thought), so I contacted a wonderful group who offered us 10 fishing poles and small tackle boxes to be used. The group is under the understanding that 3 sets would be given as awards (biggest, smallest, and most fish)and the others would be put into our pack inventory for families w/o poles or if a family wanted to borrow them for a weekend or something. There are also times when dens need poles and this way the leader would have them. After explaining this to the AC and another leader, my husband and I couldn't stay at the derby due to out of town family. We brought out everything they needed from us ( a lot), stuck around for about an hour, and then headed home. I found out Tues. night that the AC gave away all but 2 of the poles! He was giving them to parents and siblings even. Some weren't scouts. He thought that b/c they came to the derby, they should get a pole and tackle! I couldn't believe it. So, I called to talk to him about it and find out his reasoning. He said that he didn't agree with what we told him originally and "they" decided to use all of the poles for prizes and everyone got one. (There were 8 families there, incl. his!) When I told him that I worked hard to get those donated with the understanding they were given in goodwill for kids to learn how to fish and appreciate nature and aquatic life, he said, "too late now". He was very smug about it and very rude. It basically came down to me letting him know how disappointed I was that those poles weren't there and now I had to find a way not to upset this generous group. I reminded him that the committee decided there would be 3 awards and the other poles were marked with numbers b/c they were for the pack, not awards. He suddenly "snapped" and started yelling at me in the phone. He was so loud and rude, I was speechless. He ended up swearing at me a little and told me that if I wanted to remove him as AC, "be my guest". After the call, I was very frightened b/c this man is 6'7" tall and ex-Air Force MP. He talked to me as if I was someone under him who disobeyed him or something. I now understand why some of the other women in the group have mentioned his talking "down" to them and addressing their husbands more than the wives. So, I've been told I can have him removed but need to write some kind of letter to inform him of this. Anyone have any samples? I know the council is freaking out b/c now we have no CM, no AC, my husband wants to leave his position of CC, and I would like to leave COR. I am agreeing to stick in until this can be settled. I'm so afraid the pack will fold. I feel like when we talk to parents about helping us, they'll give the usual no time, too busy, work too much, etc. excuses. According to my DEs boss, he said that I need to let them know that the pack will dissolve without parents beginning to help. I don't want the pack to fold b/c we've all worked so hard to get it where it is and the kids' happiness means a lot to us. We're just tired of doing it all and having no life. Our own son is upset and doesn't want to attend activities anymore b/c my husband and I are always organizing it, setting it up, cleaning it up, and running the whole thing that he doesn't get to spend quality time with us. He asked that we give him the last year of scouts and not be leaders. He's been doing this since he was in Kinder., so how can we tell him no? Please give me some advice if you've been in this position or if you know more about removing a leader. I keep getting advice from Council, but sometimes I feel like they don't know what the other is doing. I've tried unsucessfully to get a hold of our DC for a week now (even about other things). Haven't heard from him at all. My DE barely answers emails or returns phone calls. I feel like I'm alone in all of this. HELP! Thanks!