LauraT7

our troop does not have an 'equipment' trailer - tho we own (our CO owns) a number of trailers and vehicles FOR the troop. We do have a troop bus - so when the troop goes somewhere, the boys MUST ride on the bus and the trailer driver is alone or poss has one adult in the tow vehicle for company. since joining the troop, I have most often been the 'tow' driver. We have a 20 ft two axel flatbed with 30 bicycle frames, an 8 canoe trailer, and an open 8 X 10 (converted horse trailer). We once rented an 8 X 10 enclosed U-haul. I enjoy towing the trailers - I have to admit part of the enjoyment is watching the dropped jaws of the dads when I pull in in my "mom van" and back that huge bike trailer in to place on the first try. ( lol ;-) ) The other advantage is in having my own vehicle on campouts - I've been known to tuck in a few 'extras' - tarps, extra raingear, a couple of old sweatshirts that have come in handy - and a prevented a few disasters. (if we had a traditional covered troop trailer, those 'extras' i stash would be part of the troops regular equipment - but no one likes to carry for extingencies, when they have to be packed by hand) Recently we've not always used the bus - I have only towed the Canoe trailer with boys in the van with me. I've towed the flatbed any number of times, and the u-haul - but not often with boys in the vehicle to distract me. I can do it, but would prefer not to - just makes sense, safety wise - if there are enough other vehicles. The flatbed is by far the longest and widest - and the easiest to handle - it tracks the best, and is the oldest and heaviest trailer. I agree with those above - I think its the double axels that make the difference. I would like our troop to get an enclosed trailer. Our committee wants us to use the open trailer - but it needs major repairs and to me - defeats the purpose - it would have to be loaded and unloaded from the quartermaster room for each and every trip - just like our bus or parent vehicles. It also would not keep the weather and critter out of our supplies like and enclosed trailer would. But I don't get to make the decision - that's just my opinion. Loading for each and every trip individually does cut down on the 'stuff' we bring - but it also cuts into our friday departure time and Sunday return times - a reason why our troop USED to only do Sat night campouts. Enclosed trailers are great - Especially for summer camp - because as nice as the bus is to have - you can't park it at your site, most of the time we can't get anything NEAR our site and have to haul it all in on foot. What we usually do is take the seats out of my van, load the heavy troop equipment in it - patrol boxes, tents and stuff - i drive my van to the site and and we unload. but i also can't KEEP my van in site. I tell you - when you are LIVING on site for a week - a trailer is handy. I think it encourages the boys to put things away, and gives you a place to lock stuff up away from the coons & weather. For summer camp and camporees, where you want the full set up - lashed sign, troop shelter and all, they can't be beat. It's like having your quartermaster room on wheels. Trailer camping is not appropriate to ALL camping situations, however. and some troops get locked into having all that stuff with them. _________________ whatever trailer you do decide to get - here's a tip i saw and liked that another troop did - They built shelves along the sides of their trailer inside, leaving an Aisle down the center. They had one 'deep' side and one 'shallow' side - they built plywood shelves, 18" or 12" in height - allowing them to use pre- made white wire shelving as drop down 'doors' to secure the equipment on the shelves and keep it from dumping in the aisle during transport. they also 'sectioned off' the shelves lengthwise to keep things from shifting front to back. the wire shelving is strong, cheap, can be cut to any size, easy to clean and lets you see equipment behind it. It also ventilates and lets more light in when the main equipment is unloaded. the floor space was taller - for larger, heavier items, & had a 2 X4 mounted to keep things from sliding into the aisle at floor level, with eyebolts mounted in it and the wall as tie downs. i could see alot of ingenuity in this idea - they could even prop out some of the 'shelving doors' for a work surface if needed using "L" brackets. Spaces could be fastened & subdivided securely, - rearranged as equipment needs changed - even padlocked if necessary. i thought it was really cool.

I would add only one thing to what Dan said - lead by YOUR OWN example. Since you are not the SPL, what you can do is to influence your patrol to return to the scouting methods of leadership. wether YOU are PL or not - if you have a few like-minded boys, you can start doing things using the scout methods within your patrol. When the other boys/ patrols see things working in your patrol and see you guys having fun and great outings - then THEY will want that, too. the next time elections come around - the current slacking SPL will either have gotten the message or someone else will be elected. This works on the leadership from BOTH directions, above and below. One of the hardest things we are having to teach our boys is to not elect leadership by popularity. Most people have to learn the HARD way - and often have to get slapped with the dificulties of dealing with poor leadership before they take it seriously. the other thing is - as easy as it is for us, as adults, to lecture the boys on what they SHOULD do - the best and ONLY REAL way for them to truly LEARN - is to live with the mistakes they made in making the choices they did. if adult(s) are stepping in and covering for this SPL they are doing the whole troop a disservice. Don't make the mistake of pointing out his errors and complaining alot - people will just take you as a complainer. Instead, DO something to make it better for the boys in your patrol. Actions always speak louder than words. Good luck!

Living in northern IL - much of the year we are doing outings in weather that requires warmer clothing than a troop t-shirt or Scout uniform. The jac shirt is kind of expensive - especially for growing boys - but has anyone used a 'troop' windbreaker or hooded sweatshirt or something similar for group recognition? One thing I did see at a Klondike that I liked, was a scout olive green ski hat, with the troops red troop number sewn on it. (the same number patch used on uniform sleeeves) Very simple and very effective for picking your boys out of a crowd! I'm thinking of suggesting to the troop that we offer the option of offering a sweatshirt or jacket with the troop logo on it - If possible, it might be nice if the boys could wear their activity patches on it, too. since it is not an 'official' uniform piece - are their any regulations for or against a troop choosing to have a troop jacket? Red is, of course, great for visibility - but whould we stay away from red because of the scout windbreaker and jac shirt? do the same patch rules apply to the red scout windbreaker as the jac shirt?

Bob White: 'Awards' - are those Merit Badges, or just Rank Advancements? Personally, I would agree that it is not right to make a boy wait for his recognition.- even tho I know that alot of badges would get 'lost' if they weren't given out at COH and turned over to mom for safekeeping until sewn on. What i would really like to see, since the patches ans badges have to be ordered, anyway - is to have them given out, when the order comes in, say, once a month. if the troop got into a habit of ordering regularly, parents would be used to seeing the boys bring home badges periodically. I try to encourage each boy to button their patches and stuff in their shirt pocket when they get them. that way they are always with the shirt. Once, i DID wash Jon's shirt with all the badges and cards in the pocket. they did get a little mushed, & fused together, but they are still (mostly) readable. the badges themselves were fine. One thing I AM surprized at, is the lack of sewing skills in the average family. I can understand boys not knowing how to sew on patches - many young boys don't have good fine motor skills, anyway. But i would think the moms could do basic sewing, and they can't! i see patches stiched on with heavy quilting thread - wrong colors, THROUGH the plastic backing instead of using the borders(OUCH on your fingers!) - then there's various glues and iron-on tapes. YUCH! Patches are too heavy for the heat of an iron to make iron on tape work very well, and glues often mess up the fabric - messy if you ever have to move or replace a patch. And how many boys have their patches sewn THROUGH the shirt pockets? A really EASY way to 'baste' any patch in place is to use a regular desktop stapler. The staples hold well and can be pulled easily if you need to re-arrange the badge or patch. once they are arranged satifactorily and stapled in place - you can then handle the fabric, manuver and turn it to get the stitches neatly around the edge. Once they are sewn on - you can pull the staples. Much easier than pins than often bend in those heavy backings! and no gluey, gooey mess!

KWC - Ok, I confess, report me to the "Pant Police"! I did this to my scout uniform pants, also. And I know you are NOT talking about me, specifically, because I didn't use an alterations shop, I did them myself. It was very easy. We are all familiar with the 'fit' problem of the uniform pants. It is just not possible to find ONE pant style that is going to comfortably fit ALL body types, Male and Female from 6 to 60. I have always 'made do' with Scout colored, non uniform pants and shorts. For summer camp, I will STILL utilize non-uniform, color matched shorts in order to have changes to wear. But I needed LONG pants, and could not find a pair, in green, at any price that fit me. So if I was going to buy a pair and alter them - I figured I might as well get the "official" ones. I have been so jealous of my son's many pairs of zip offs- they are so practical for camping - and they just DON'T make them in my size - Scout uniform or ANY kind! So, since I was altering them, anyway, and they were SO expensive, ( I think they were around $45?) I made them do double duty and made zip offs out of them. At least I'll get to wear them twice as much! When the legs are zipped off - you cannot tell they are zip offs - you can't see the zipper hidden in the hem - they look EXACTLY like uniform shorts. When the legs are zipped on, you can see a seam and a fold. I choose not to put in the "inner flap" for bulk reasons. That scout fabric is a little stiff - and the legs are loose enough that the zippers don't bother me. I choose PLASTIC zippers, rather than metal, for flexibility, weight and wear comfort. As for the color matching problem, I have seen this 'fading' happen in my son's zip offs - usually in the summer when he tends to wear them all day as shorts alone - never using the legs and not sending the zipped-off legs thru the wash with the shorts. It isn't so much the WEAR that fades them, as the cuffs not getting washed as often. I also got tired of trying to match up similar pants with slightly different shades ( intentionally - he had about 3 tan pr that vary only slightly) so now Zip off must go thru the wash with the legs zipped on - or i won't wash them. that keeps both the colors and the parts together - it also protects the zippers from damage in the wash.

On a trip through Kentucky this spring - i picked up a number of brochures that suggest there are places to canoe rivers THROUGH caves - Is there anyone on this board who knows Kentucky well enough to give us some ideas /places/ directions to explore? We are located NW of Chicago, IL and troops here generally don't think of going south - it's always north. Our troop has decided to do a High Adventure trip next year for the older boys, instead of going to two summer camps. They are leaning toward Boundary waters - I think mostly because it is fairly known. The troop has a history of doing the Boundary waters in the past, although NONE of the boys or leaders currently in the troop have ever been to Boundary Waters. Since our boys also love caving - combining the two sounded like a good option - and if i can find some more information for them - they might try something really new and different. if we don't do it next summer, they may choose it as an option in 2005 - perhaps spring break? I'm thinking that if they go south -they could extend the camping season somewhat - but am not sure of spring/ fall weather in KY. Seems to me when i went to college in Carbondale, it was pretty warm march - oct. Anyone know any scout camps or outfitters that might lead/ run such a trip?

Our troop used to be known as a high adventure troop in the past. Since our troop has been around for 85 yrs, by 'past' I mean the 70's, 80's and early 90's. Characterised by an annual trip to the boundary waters every year and enough canoeing in between to warrant owning our own canoes and trailers. but in the past ten years or so, they maybe take the canoes out once a year, if at all. We have done some high adventure trips - all weekends, at the most - 4 days, 3 nights- I would clasify "high adventure" as something that needs specialized training by the boys & specialty trained leaders - things like climbing, canoeing, caving, Backpacking - where you are off the 'civilized' car camping areas and emergency help is not just around the corner. when we do these kind of trips, our attendance is always down. But I would be worried if it WEREN'T less - because these are NOT trips for tenderfeet! Our troop has been less than 20 boys for a few years - and they tend to want to do things as a whole troop, and they did not use patrol system until recently. We are still trying to get them to do patrol campouts. the closest we have come is to go on the same campout - but the Venture patrol went whitewater rafting while the younger patrols went hiking. One of the big problems is leadership - Looking at our 5 most active/camping SM/ ASM's - the three that are most willing and capable of taking leadership responsibility, and have the most training - have the least PHYSICAL capability of leading this kind of trip. We have two who are more physically capable; but are not willing to commit and take responsibility or extensive training for leading such a trip. (I'm including myself in the first group - I'll take the training & responsibility - but I cannot physically heft a pack!) Looking at the physical profiles of the adults seen at roundtable, camporees, etc - I would suspect that many troops are in our (overweighty) boat. Still, I would like to see our boys have the opportunity, should they wish too - which is why when they wanted to do a boundary waters trip next year - i backed them 150%. I may even help train to go along, tho i probably won't go - I wouldn't want to hold them back. however - I think one aspect of high adventure is very UNDER used in our area - That of established camps HA programs. Mostly because our camps do not offer high adventure programs, and there is a push to use our camps. i think these programs are ideal - as they often provide the trained staff, even equipment and boy training. i would feel much more secure with my son under THEIR direction, than i would having him go with adults whose expertise I am not certain of. the final problem is a harder one - the boys themselves. In the first year my son was with the troop there was a big gap in ages - we had two boys close to 18 and Eagle - capable of HA trips - and the rest were pretty much 11 - 13; 2nd class and below, not much camping experience. More than that - most were NOT very physically fit, and even if they were, were not inclined to CHOOSE to exert themselves on a long backpacking trip or biking trip. We live in a community where everyone drives to the corner store - and walking the equivalent of a few blocks is considered a hardship by the kids. (esp at summer camp - I never heard so much complaining!) Very few of the boys in our troop WANT to work that hard! Still, we've managed to get them canoeing again - so there IS hope!

WHAT?????? And hurt the feelings of those who gave him all that junk???? nope - but tell you what - you can donate YOUR junk to HIS council and vice-versa! LOL!

But that's my point, KoreaScout - suddenly he HAD the badge done, by them dropping a couple of requirement, only one of which he needed under the old badge requirements - so we only had to find someone to sign off on it - or wait 6-7 months for summer camp to come around to finish it. But no one would answer him and do so. It would be nice if the District Advancement Chair WOULD get a list out - but everytime we've asked ar roundtables, (For me, since april of 2001) we get "it's being worked on" - Really - the office is computerized - I'm sure they have some kind of software that lists volunteers and their positions - can it be that hard? Our district want to be able to give a list to everyone on CDROM - that's great - but I'm sure we would be happy to settle for paper or anything!

Eamonn - in our area we have had to RECRUIT Badge counselors to work with boys in our troop because the district/ council list is so outdated - IF you can find a copy of it at all! For example - my son had ONE requirement to finish on Swimming after summer camp first year - he called all 6 of the counselors he was given - 3 phone numbers were disconnected, one counselor had died. One never answered the phone, the last had a weird answering machine - we weren't sure we had the right party. He went back and tried a number of times over a number of months to contact these two last counselors, because the message on the machine was a different family name and a female voice (the counselor was male) I left a message for him to call me a number of times - my son was a little confused by the garbled message. after about 4 months, Jon and i gave up. We figured he'd have to wait for next summer to get that one requirement signed off. In January, they revised the Swimming badge and DROPPED the one requirement he had to complete! So we renewed the effort to find a counselor - since they had not updated the list in years - we were back to calling the two numbers we had left. I also used the 'grapevine' of roundtable meetings to find a counselor for him. Eventually, at one roundtable I was introduced to "Bob" - the very guy we had been leaving messages for! he said - oh - that's my daughter's phone, they don't pass message on to me and anyway, i never respond to badge calls made by parents - only if the BOY calls me! Well, how is the boy supposed to call you if he doesn't have your right number and your own kids aren't made to pass on such messages? we eventually got him to come to a troop meeting, as we had a number of boys who had been trying to reach him - and he met with them and signed off. This is not an isolated incident - we have found it ALWAYS difficult, if not impossible, to get a response from badge counselors off the district "list" mostly because they do not make any effort to keep it current. I've been in Boy scouts for 3 years, and it was outdated by 5 yrs when I started and they were promising to update it then - they still haven't done it. Even if the district DOES update - it still comes down to individual counselors - and i have found many to be very unaccomodating - IF they haven't died, IF their phone is still connected and they are still counseling, and IF they bother to return calls at all! I'm sure there are many - myself being one - that if called would at least return a call. But, how can they? My name is not on the 'list'! No one but my troop and a few others know I am a badge counselor!?! Experience has taught the boys to not even bother trying outside their personal circle (which, luckily, includes a couple of other troops in our area) If a boy wants to do a badge - generally the adults call the other troops to find out - or we recruit someone specifically to do that badge. Most get done at camp or at badge colleges. So who is to blame? the boys? I don't think so.

My son is in 8th grade, and has been at first class rank for almost a year - and now it looks like he'll be there for another 6 months, because he can't get elected to a POR. He's had all the requirements for Star done for ages - and just that one requirement of a 4 month POR is holding him up. Last election, he tried for PL - and lost, because of the 5 in his patrol, his 2 friends were not there - so the vote went 1 - 2 - and Jon became APL. the other boy was a good PL - so Jon didn't have much to do. I suggested being an instructor and he talked to the SM about it - but whenever an opportunity came up for him to DO something with the NSP - they never used him - they would use one of the boys from the venture patrol. I tried not to interfere too much - For one thing, I wanted him to pursue a leadership role himself. But the SPL, PLC and adults can't seem to see beyond his ADD surface behavior, and he got tired of asking and being ignored. Jon is ADD and gifted. He gets bored easily and is very 'antsy', often humming or whistling when he is bored. (which happens often at meetings) Of course, he often does not react right away or appear to be paying attention - But he loves scouting and the outdoors - and when needed, he shows that he really DOES have all his scouting skills down cold; he inobtrusively helps everyone around him. Jon is kind of clown-ish - esp at meetings where the endless chatter bores him. the boys in his age group used to tease him - it took awhile for them to realise that he DOES, sometimes, know what he's doing - but most of them have passed him up in rank - and are in the Venture patrol - because they had leadership positions. With his ADD, he is mostly 'organizationally challenged' - so having him take on a made up job 'organizing something' for his POR is not going to work, unless we can find something that really piques his interest. He really DOES want to be PL - because he ideas and wants to DO things - not just sit around - but he just can't consistantly maintain the kind of behavior in meetings that makes anyone take him seriously. having him as a den chief might be MORE work for a Den leader than help- he just CAN'T sit still - so I don't think that would work, either. but just because he can't be still, does NOT mean that he isn't capable. He's very smart, and good with his hands. he can build or fix all kinds of things. This is a boy who at 9 figured out how to re-build the cable lift system in our camper, and this summer, he pulled up the old bathroom floor and laid new ceramic tile for me and installed a new toilet. this time around, The troop held elections for SPL one night, and then waited a week & announced who was in what new patrols and had elections for the patrols the same night. Our SM and committee decided to split the NSP because of the hazing incident this summer - and put 4 of them in my son's patrol and 3 in the other - so all 3 patrols now have 7 boys - 2 reg patrols and a 'venture' patrol of star and above. though we all learned something from the hazing incident - i still don't think the youngest ones (who started it) really 'get' it. they are the most clickish, rowdiest group of boys i have known and splitting them up didn't make a difference. At patrol Elections - Jon was up for PL and 4 boys were running. they decided to have a vote to narrow the field - highest two would run. the vote was Jon 3, Carl 2, X & Y each got one (their own votes)Carl is a tenderfoot, joined the troop last April. Carl is a fun kid - with irrisistable dimples - he is liked by everyone, (including me!)always smiling and happy. he is more popular than his older brother, who is in the troop and in Jon's class (2 yrs older). The brother jon's age is a nice kid and well liked - just shy. Carl just has ALOT of charisma. So then it was between Carl and Jon - so they gave 'speeches' about why they wanted to be PL - Carl had actually walked in late - and said for his speech 'I dunno - just because!" Jon's speech was a little longer - but he did say he wanted to do some patrol outings and not have to wait for whole troop outings. He wanted to do more campouts like the winter survival campout and lashing projects. he also said he wanted to build a better patrol box. he had actually thought about it before the meeting. We have tried - but no amount of discussion gets through to the boys that they need to chose baised on ability and not popularity. Despite Carl's obvious lack of ability - the 3 other 6th graders voted for their buddy, and Jon was out. He is SO dissapointed, and as his buddies are passing him up and he was really prepared and the best qualified to be PL - he is getting frustrated with scouting. it didn't help any that two of his buddies were moved up to the venture patrol, without him, either. The other positions in the troop are being assigned by the SM - there is a chance that he will be assigned as Librarian or something - but I really feel for him. I understand WHY he is being passed over - but am leary of interfeering too much. I also realize that he has TRIED to control the behavior that annoys people - and that he CANNOT control it consistantantly - like someone with a tic- it's not really bad - but he can be annoying. Evenings are tough for him - his meds have worn off, and the meetings ARE very disorganized and lots of endless talk. Social skills are always a problem for kids with ADD. and additional meds keep him from sleeping at night - so that's not an option. I hate to see him get passed up over and over - and our troop has never made use of the SM option to 'create' a POR. I hesitate to ask for an exception for Jon - it might make him stand out even more. and i doubt he would be able to do a good job in a 'made up' position anyway. i don't know what to do, and i don't know what to tell him to help him keep trying.

ah - more info - troop 617 from cincinatti OH - 11 yrs of scouting - she's a 'Scoutmaster' - but is not wearing a SM patch that i can see - so she may or may not be THE SM of her troop... She also has her woodbadge beads wonder what her boys think of this? Esp since all the males in her team elected to stip to nothing for the challenge they lost - the other team thought it was stupid and disgusting, for the most part. She was NOT voted out tonite - not even ONE vote against her, even though she was discussed as being a weak link by a few of her teammates. I think this little scouting twist might 'hook' me into watching this dumb show....

I'm not a 'survivor' fan - but my mom got me to turn on the show tonite, and i was surpriosed to see a scout leader in full uniform on the show - as one of the contestants? Think her name is "Lilly" I believe her shirt says troop 615 - couldn't read the council patch but saw a couple of square knots and i think an OA flap - From the one show looks like she might get voted off - her team lost their challenge tonite... think this is good or bad advertising for BSA? Any comments?

We have also done some badge REQUIREMENTS as a troop - particularly the bike trips that we've tacked on a few extra miles to make it the 25 or 50 mile amount in the biking badge - or Covering First aid requirements in meetings, where it's easy to tack on something while you've got all the equipment out. But we've never done a badge in three troop meetings and automatically included all the boys. But we have found a lack of interest in the badge colleges because they don't offer what our boys want. But your comments have helped me refine what we want to do - First - we never intended to make it during a troop meeting or for the entire troop - we were going to have a sign up list- Something like "Badge counselors Mrs T and Mrs J Will be offering the "Family Life Merit Badge" on Mon 1/2 hour before meeting and 90 days later (date) on mon before meeting." please read and come prepared to cover the following requirements the first night. This particular badge is not very involved - mostly home work and pre- approval of a project - a couple of discussions with the counselor - but doing it before or after meeting times makes it convenient for those interested and provides the automatic dual YP guidelines. ___________________ Another badge i would REALLY like to offer is Photography - mostly because I and my son are the main photographers for the troop activities and i would like to see MORE photos of the troop in action from a different perspective than ours. I have often bought disposable cameras (esp the waterproof ones - they are GREAT!) and given them to boys on trips and gotten some good photos - but I would like to see less blurring, better cropping and less thumbs and fingers! LOL! Also, if i knew a boy had taken the badge and understood my cameras (digital and 35 mm)i would be willing to let them use them for the badge and on outings. This one would probably be done on a separate time and day than before or after meetings - especially as it is more activity based - with some actual 'teaching'. We also have two Badge counselors for this badge in our troop - so we could cover the 2 deep leadership and split the teaching part. _________________ another reason for this idea is that we are having committee problems - they are nixing and stalling on some of the boys good ideas for outings, and the boys are getting frustrated. We had NO activities for September - because the committee couldn't get their act together and approve things (see my committee headache post on the main board) BUT patrol outings ( which our boys aren't really used to planning yet - but we're encouraging them) and things like these Merit badge activities would be outside the Committee's jurisdiction. I'm a big believer in Scouting being mostly OUTING - if all you do is meetings - they lose interest quickly. I've recently heard through the grapevine that a boy or two is shopping other troops becasue they are not getting the opportunities to work on advancements and badges like they want. Our boys are new to being self-directed, and are still looking for a little more structure. they do have to be TAUGHT to be self-reliant. I think a few badge classes might be a good way to provide minimum structure and make them start to direct themselves. Any more ideas? ___________- I can see that different badges would have different requirements for DOING them - such as doing archery at an archery range with instructors vs. something like perwonal management or communications - which could easily be done with the facilities available to us at our generous CO church. - i guess I'm looking for ideas that could make it work better or

I know doing merit badge work for the entire troop during meetings is not encouraged - there are other things to do. Our district has been doing "Merit Badge Opportunity Days" for the past 2-3 years - spring and fall - kind of a merit badge college - where for three alternating saturdays, they meet at the local LDS church and sign up for MB classes. the first one was insane - good - but crazy. they expected about 150 boys and got something like 700. they offered any MB they were able to hook a counselor to teach - from First Aid to fingerprinting - probably 20 or more badges. they put no restrictions on who took what classes, so we had first yr tenderfeet signing up for Chemistry. (really tough) of course, the Eagle badges were very popular - esp the Citizenship ones. They offered 5 sessions each Sat - so the boys could earn up to 5 badges, and didn't limit class size - so some classes were 30-50 boys. By the second Sat many had dropped out - it was too much like school, too crazy - but they still had 2-3 times the boys they had expected. the MBOD's since then have put restrictions on badges -you must be first class to sign up for Eagle badges, and they only offer 3 sessions instead of 5 - made it less crazy. They offer only about adozen different badges and the fall MBOD's don't offer the Eagle badges at all. cuts down the attendance at that one considerably. We have boys and parent counselors that have offered to 'teach' or lead a badge - esp the Eagle ones and ones not offered at camp. I am a counselor, for among other things, Family Life, and Personal Management. Another SM and i have been tossing around the idea of offering one of these as a group/ class. although both are very individual badges - their are some parts that could benefit from group discussions, and having a structure and a timetable to follow. We have also talked about doing other badges - like photography, or communications as a group. my questions are - if your troop has or would offer badges to the troop to work on as a group - how have you done it? other than MB colleges or camp settings? do you offer it and meet before or after a regular meeting? doe you poick another meeting time or place? evenings or weekends? what sugtgstions would you offer in teaching the material?

Your question confuses me, as I hadn't really thought about it - we usually have between 17 and 25 boys in our troop since my son and I joined. Most campouts we have only about 2-3 boys missing - so I am sure we are covered anyway, and we always get the national camping award each year. We also had a habit of doing only one night campouts - which we have recently changed. our two exceptions are when we do patrol or "special requirement" campouts - such as our recent WI river trip - where the boys who went had to have passed their swim test, have their swimming badge and we required them to be at least first class, so that we knew they had some canoeing experience (in our troop, anyway, first classers have been around long enough to have canoed at camp and with the troop some) on a recent campout this summer, a two nighter - about 5 friday to noon sunday - we had one boy who had to leave Sat afternoon for a family event that night, and another boy who had to work saturday morning, so he came up and joined us late saturday afternoon. they may or may not have overlapped being there - i don't think it matters... I think the effort outweighs the clocked time - for both these boys, we recorded only one night of camping toward their count toward OA and Camping badge - but they were THERE and contributed every bit as much as the other boys who stayed both nights to the planning and execution of the trip. One helped set up camp, and the other helped take it down. if the CAMPOUT is less than 48 hours - I'd still count it as two days - just because you are limited to leaving after the adults get off work on Friday and have to get back sunday for some family (and HOMEWORK!) time, doesn't mean you should shortchange the kids. Besides, we all know that any campout takes cumulative time than a sunday afternoon to make it happen. Let's not be so nitpicky?

Fscouter - an "annual permit" for our purposes is a local tour permit filed with the council for "any and all outings and campouts within our local area and council" We file it once a year, with all the registered leaders and drivers, vehicles, etc listed, and all known planned activities then on the calendar. It is signed by a committee person and the SM . we mail it in to the council each fall after the calendar is approved. we keep a copy - and sometimes - we fax over a copy with the specifics added when we change plans or add a driver, etc. if we do something that requires specific leadership or requirements - out of council, over 500 miles, high adventure, a water activitiy that requires trained people, etc - we file a separate appropriate tour permit - Local or National before the event.

maybe you need to change your recruiting tactics. I was always a 'helper' in our cub pack and den - because we had plenty of leaders - until fall of 5th grade. We got so many NEW 5th graders recruited from the fun stuff we invited them to, we had to start another den - and i took it. Three of the 5 new boys were school friends of my son - friends we had taken with us on scout and family outings over the summer. My son was the ONLY prior cub scout - and I have never had so much fun as I did with those boys! They were the most enthusiastic scouts i ever worked with! From that cub experience and with our Boy Scout troop - i have come to realize that recruitment has very little to do with recruiting 'drives'. In fact - i'd say they are almost detrimental - because people get the mind-set that they can put on a 1 time effort and accomplish something with it! They may GET recruits - but they don't KEEP them - they often let the ball (the individual boy) drop after they get that application form - because they don't make an ongoing effort. except in the case of 1st and 2nd grade cubs when they ALL are starting out - and the PARENTS make all of the decision to have the boys join - recruitment drives are a waste of time, IMHO. After that, and even at that grade - your recruitment should be more of a constant - we're doing something fun, - want to come along? For recruiting - you have to think of it less as "doing a membership drive to raise the numbers for an organization" - and more like what you do when your kid brings a friend home with him from school. When your kid brings a new friend home - what happens? how do they build their friendship? Their friendship isn't motivated by earning awards or wearing a costume - it's motivated by common interests and fun activities. At first, they want to spend every waking moment together (and you start to feel like you've adopted another kid!) They 'grow' their friendship by exploring together; each other's habits and preferences, they explore each other's toys and homes, they work out rules of favorite games, to compete against each other in a friendly way - or WITH each other against the "outsiders" - all of which cements the 'exclusiveness' of their friendship. They may pull others into their tight little circle, and have others that are 'marginal' friends, making that circle like ripples on water. there are critical periods where they have to either support the friendship, or let it die. sometimes it takes an adult to guide if the friendship is to survive. That's the way scouting recruitment should work. from age 6 to 18. i don't know a single kid who got into scouting because it was their goal to be a SCOUT - instead, either their parents sent them and they became part of the group - or they came with a friend and their personal interest grew from there. the only exception to that is where kids moved in from another area and either they or their prents recognised that scouting was a good bridge to making friends and feeling a part of something. But they return, and STAY - because they have friends, they feel secure and they are having fun. later, they start to recognise other values of being a scout - but by then, they are hooked, anyway. If your scouts talk to non-scouts, and invite them, and SHOW them friendship, safety (non-judgemental and secure), and FUN - they will come. And stay.

In my research, i haven't found much more than what is stated here - except one interesting thing in an old 1996 (?) newletter online - something about JASM qualifying as a POR for LIFE scouts - this would make sense, especially if the boy was working on his Eagle and had already had a number of PORS in the troop - and especially if he had been SPL one or more times. Gives him a leadership role, and opens the SPL and other top positions to boys who have not had those chances yet - Another thing from those old lessons i inferred - that using or appointing a JASM is kind of going out of use - because of the YP guidelines. As someone pointed out - he's still a "Tweener" - He can take on as many of the ASM responsibilities as he is capable, except THE MAJOR one - because he is not over 18, he can't be counted as an 'Adult' for YP guidelines, in fact, still has to BE "protected" under YP. This means he can't meet with another adult ASM or committee member without multiple adults present or another youth present. It also means that another adult ( or two) have to be present when he is working with the youth. In some ways - it kind of defeats the purpose of the position - or at least, takes something out of it.

The troop is in the 'habit' of having the committee approve the yearly agenda and trips. Generally, a permit is not necessary for EVERY trip - as we have an annual permit filed. When I was Activities coordinator, & on the committee, i would sign any permit and just take it to the SM to sign - no problem. When I left the committee - but still handled Activities until they found someone else - same thing - except I would just take the permit to the CC to sign and the SM - and then fax it over. for the immediate trips, our annual permit is enough - but it just leaves a bad feeling all around if we go off and do a trip without following the established habit of having the adults agree before hand. I keep trying to give the message to the SM and the other adults who agree with me - that if the boys come up with a complete enough program, we back it and they present it with an attitude of 'this is it' - that eventually the committee holdouts will back down. My feeling is that they need to TAKE possession of THEIR program, with adult backing - that the committee will never GIVE it to them. But the adults and the older boys aren't 2willing, yet, to push that hard, i guess. As for talking to the COR - i have tried. I really believe her illness and other things are affecting her - She's just not someone who can be swayed, once she's decided to be stubborn. She can be a great ally - and a worse enemy.

C'mon - are your telling me that no one here has anything to offer on this subject? help!

"It's a great idea, the boys had it, and I think there is a whole heck of a lot of reason to do it to support the Aims. If they decided they want to do it, it's valuable, and it's done within some framework so that it remains civil, it's going to happen. Parents can decide to keep their kids home that night if they want them to miss a great educational event. We don't much care." THAT'S what I like to hear - I don't care if it's a politcal debate or a campout - IT'S WHAT THE BOYS WANT. It's THEIR program - plain and simple. Give 'em some structure and direction and watch them FLY! now why can't more Scouters understand that? Laura

It's a touchy situation for a number of reasons - In 2001 & 2, our troop weathered a BIG storm of adult infighting - where this woman and i, among others, were strong voices of the 'winning side' - to return to boy-lead and BSA programming, instead of the 'ole boy's club' the troop had become over the last decade. At the time, i was surprised to find her supporting us, as she came across as very old fashioned in her ideas, but she did. It is turning out that while she agrees in principal - her idea of boy-lead is very different than that of some of the rest of us. Tho the troop survived and is stronger - the fighting left many in the troop wary of adult disagreement, and some boys and families left the troop - active adult leadership was lost, and recruitment suffered. At the time, this person was also our district commisioner AND COR. She has been COR for over 10 yrs, and only became truly active on the committee when the upset happened and we had to find a new SM. I don't know when she left being District Commisioner - perhaps recently - as she is seriously ill and may be cutting back on her district responsibilities. She is a very dedicated scouter. She's probably been in scouting in this area for 30 - 40 years - her sons are grown. One son was our interim ASM, and is now the advancement chair on our committee. but they both tend want to do things 'the way they always have done them' and to be somewhat closedminded and controlling. She has taken alot of training, including Woodbadge, and if she DID take committee challenge - She'd probably interpret the BSA's carefully non-specific language to mean the committee SHOULD be telling the boys where to go on trips and when. She is a badge counselor for the citizenship badges and other difficult badges, Very active in the district and council on countless levels and has received many scouting awards. In other words - she should KNOW better. Her experience, dedication, strong mindedness and lastly - her age and illness make it difficult for anyone to fight her. All the newer parents in the troop, most truly active less than 6 months,are so in awe of her that they hesitate to disagree with her - heck,they don't even think to question it, they are so new. most joined after the hazing incident at camp this summer. Also, they are USED to telling the boys what to do - as in cubs and at home - it's VERY hard to let go of 'control' for alot of adults. This 'boy lead' idea is tough to do at first - and we've had some major stumbling blocks. I have suggested, multiple times over the years, that we do committee challenge within the troop. It is always 'it's a good idea but we don't have time' They spend HOURS in committee meeting once a month, and don't want to come in another night, nor do they feel they can take time from the meeting - meetings that go NOWHERE. I don't suppose it occurred to them that if the committee was TRAINED & KNEW what it was doing - the meetings wouldn't be so endlessly LONG! (and useless!) the SM is also new, and has not had alot of training - but he is trying hard and attending all roundtables and absorbing as much as he can. He is reading and learning and keeping an open mind and supporting the boys. he is more patient than i am!LOL! Although he's also very frustrated with the committee, he's feeling his way in a new role, too. I just get so frustrated when I realize that the adults bog down the process. my heart just hurts to watch our SPL, who is an enthusiastic kid and a solid scout - but sensitive - get torn down when he has to face that committee alone and get all the PLC's plans torn down. While he does a great job - he just doesn't think on his feet fast enough to bandy words with a whole room full of adults. as i look back on the past year - the troop did few campouts (and summer camp) that the commitee approved in time. everything else either fell apart or was cancelled. We did push through some replacement trips at the last minute - when I took back the job of activities and worked directly with the SPL and PLC. I admit, I can be a pushy person. when its a case of no trip for the boys unless the adults are pushed - I push. it doesn't always make me popular, and I'm not always right. however, if the committe had done it's job - they wouldn't be questioning, canceling and rescheduling outings the week before they're supposed to happen!

One of my favorite scouts just had his 16th birthday and wants to be a Jr. Asst SM rather than take on a 3rd (non-consecutive) term as SPL. But we are all a little unsure of what this position actually IS. the scout in question has had a number of leadership positions and training, been a den chief, had den chief and JLT training. he is done with his Eagle all except the final touches on his Eagle project and it's BOR. A great kid who wants to be a camp counselor next summer. Would we find a description in any of the accessable (meaning someone already has it or it's free) BSA literature? is there anything online or does anyone have a more complete job description? Or, if you have Jr ASM's in your troop - what are their duties? all we have so far is : Serves as an Assistant SM & carry out duties as assigned by the SM.

we have been trying to get back to being a 'boy lead' troop. i got tired of the endless talk and little action on the committee and left it last spring to be an ASM when I thought we were well on the road to change. But it seems that while the Boys have started taking back leadership - the committee doesn't want to LET them. Under our new SM, the boys researched and prepared and came up with a plan for the coming year - it wasn't the best plan - some old stuff, some new - but for a first REAL attempt at planning their own stuff, the SM and AMS thought they did pretty well. the committee - esp a particular person, tore it apart. that person happens to be our Charter Org rep AND used to be our district Commissioner as well. She stepped down this year because of health problems, but has become more involved in our troop, instead. She has been in scouting a lONG time - SAYS she wants 'boy lead' - yet wants to dictate where the boys go to summer camp and where they go camping (yet she is older and not in good health, so she never goes camping with them. the end result was that the committee meeting took 2 - 3 hrs, and they did not 'approve' the boy's plan. Same thing happened last year, and we've struggled with committee meetings and fumbling with last minute approval of most of our campouts because of this nonsense all year. Now, because they did not approve it - two planned campouts are up in the air, pending the next committee meeting in Oct. I have pushed for committee training, for all kinds of training - but the committee members are mostly new parents who are still feeling their way. the few older ones feel they've been at it long enough that they don't 'need' training - they think they know what they are doing. ( NOT!) They ALL tend to trust ans follow this woman because of her long scouting experience. But doing things the 'old' way doesn't necessarily mean they are the 'correct' way. I've gone to all the training I can find (everything except Woodbadge) and done alot of reserch, asked alot of questions - I can't find anything, anywhere that says the committee should be able to veto or decide WHAT the boys do and WHERE they go - only that they should advise and guide - and in fact - the SM is responsible for most of that. It is my understanding that the committee should be looking at the plans only with an eye to conflicts, safety, transportation, reservations, making sure the troop has trained adults and the financial means to make something happen - that kind of thing. I think this would normally be refered to our District commissioner - but being as she is a past commissioner herself - i don't know how it would be taken. Any suggestions?