LauraT7

lots of good input - and i was trying to not be too long winded (I know I AM - but I try not to!) with the long version - posted earlier this summer. Bubba - you're right - we SHOULDN'T be divided into two camps - we WERE a bigger troop, and the encouragement to split was made by ADULTS that wanted to revisit a childhood memory(and admitedly AWESOME camp). and boys who would not be swayed to leave the old camp we'd gone to for years. Then, due to an upset that couldn't be resolved, a large group of those adults and their boys left the troop - AFTER the reservations were made. Monday night THE BOYS voted on where to go for camp next year - and the new camp won, by a small, but decided margin. ONLY boys had a say. one of the problems was that is was NOT a boy-lead troop - we are trying to get back to it - and yes ADULTS as well as boy conflicts, are in the way. We have alot of adult interest - maybee too much - and each with their own agenda. As far as the hazing is concerned - whenever the adults were aware of it, it was stopped. The policies are certainly understood - but the boys in question don't care. And the boy(s)are smart enough to hide it from the adults. there was stuff we knew about ans supected, but could not prove. next - the PLC is a BIG part of the problem. We have a couple of fast advancing (all 1st class, but just 13) but immature boys in the PLC (3 patrols). The SPL and ASPL are our two more mature-level heads - but still only 14 and 15 - and are the more quieter, serious, and in the case of the SPL, sensitive boys. The camp we went to DID have a COPE program - but they boys who really need it are all under 14 - the minimum age for COPE at that camp. the sad thing also, is that ALL of those in question, the SPL., ASPL and patrol leaders and others, have all been to JLT camp this summer. I'm afraid some have missed the point - as they seem to think that training and rank advancement give them "priveledges" above those less advanced. Again - the 13 yr old 1st classers. the ringleader - unfortunatly, just got his "Star" on Monday night. He is a ambitious kid, in the gifted program at school, just turned 13,and has worked tirelessly and competitively on his rank advancements and badges. But he just doesn't "get it". If I had been on his board (I wasn't - and I AM a committee member) I would have questioned his scout spirit, in light of his behavior this summer. But the board in question did not. His parents are strongly involved, wealthy and very competitive and ambitious. He gets it from them. he and his parents are pushing for him to be the youngest Eagle in recent history. i would not worry at all over losing this boy - instead, i am worried that his behavior, and others he pulls with him, will chase off the GOOD ones! If he weren't instigating, I think the others could be convinced to work together. It's too late for full week or summer programs - but are there things - team building activities and resorces that we could draw on for short-term campouts, events and meetings? I am on good and friendly terms with the SPL - If i could come up with some resources and ideas for him, they could choose what they like to implement. he has asked for my help in planning a future campout the 3rd weekend in August - our last before school starts. OZEMU - I think you are right - the boys can't be "told" they have to identify the problem and come up with soulutions themselves - BUT they often do not have the resources to find the answers or work out the soulution. I would like to give them some leads, materials, info - and let them take it from there. If they choose to do nothing, then - at least we tried. Where could I find some team building excercises we could incorporate into meetings, and events? How do we get these boys to come out of "me" and work on "we"? I know the Troop and Adults do not have the training to do a COPE type thing - but where can i find that sort of thing in small doses? I don't think this can wait a whole year 'til next summer camp. Thanks again - I always know I can find some great help here! laura

Another $.02 worth.... I have a bad back - therefore i don't go on backpacking trips..... But... some of the campsites at camp are pretty far back on some pretty rough paths, and you can't always get our troop's bus - or even a van or truck, back there. So I always bring my "big wheel" two wheel dolly. Once my stuff is back at camp, the boys are welcome to use it to haul water jugs, equipment, etc. After our first week at summer camp this summer - with our new (and heavy!) 7 gallon water jugs - I left the dolly on the bus for the next week of camp after ours. The boys really appreciated it. It came back just fine - I think - it's still on the bus, actually. But if it were broken, someone would have told me - and if it is, well, I choose to let them use it without my supervision, didn't I? i have quite a bit of camping equipment that i will take and "share" on campouts. And I am pretty particular about caring for my equipment so that it lasts. But if it's really valuble, or I'm afraid it might be mis-used, then I don't take it or let the boys use it without my supervision. If i leave it with them, unsupervised, like i did with my dolly - well then, if it's lost, stolen or damaged - it was MY choice to risk it. And I've broken my share of my stuff, and even troop stuff. Accidents happen, things get old, or aren't really suited to the use - which sounds like the situation with this wagon. Also, boys are BOYS, not adults, and even an eagle scout may not have had experience that would tell him that this plastic wagon would not hold up to the weight and roughhousing the boys were giving it. heck, it sounds like you might have been better off with a metal Radio Flyer! LOL! I'd say that if they sent it, they have to accept that it might get broken. Give 'em a receipt and tell them it's a tax-deductable "donation" to the troop! My feeling is also that somebody should have reconsidered the planning of the trip - if the boys could not carry the necessary equipment to the site.

I posted this on another part of the board, so if you caught it there, please pass on this one - but we need some help! Our troop just came back from camp - this year we actually went to 2 camps - 5 boys went to a new camp and 15 went to the traditional camp we've gone to for years. (2 of those went to both camps) One thing became painfully clear at both camps - our troop no longer works as a team. there are a few strong individualists in the troop, who seem to have an individual agenda - and they either walk over the boys that want to work as a group, or try to sway the younger boys to teasing cliques and meaness. For example - the smaller group at camp had an opportunity to earn the Baden Powell Camping award - but 2 of the 5 made the others think it was "dumb" - mostly becasue they were already first class and part of getting the award involved getting their "CAPS" ( a program at that camp that involves doing something at each activity unit - and co-incidentally- covers alot of Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st class requirements they already had)and because for the award we would have had to do a troop service project at camp. Because THEY didn't participate - the TROOP could not get the award. One of these boys went to the other camp, also. there he teamed up with another, older boy, who had previously lost the election for SPL. The two of them deliberatly undermined the direction of the elected SPL, played tricks on him and others and by friday had our SPL in tears and ready to quit the troop. ( WE really, REALLY don't want to loose this SPL - he's one of the most awsome kids i have ever worked with - but he's also a sensitive kid - one of the things that makes him so good a leader for the younger boys, but vulnerable to these kind of things) My question is - what can we do to make these boys see that they HAVE to be a team? this is NOT an individual competition? Our troop has other problems that we are dealing with - but this could break the camels back. Any ideas?

Our troop just came back from camp - this year we actually went to 2 camps - 5 boys went to a new camp and 15 went to the traditional camp we've gone to for years. (2 of those went to both camps) One thing became painfully clear at both camps - our troop no longer works as a team. there are a few strong individualists in the troop, who seem to have an individual agenda - and they either walk over the boys that want to work as a group, or try to sway the younger boys to teasing cliques and meaness. For example - the smaller group at camp had an opportunity to earn the Baden Powell Camping award - but 2 of the 5 made the others think it was "dumb" - mostly becasue they were already first class and part of getting the award involved getting their "CAPS" ( a program at that camp that involves doing something at each activity unit - and co-incidentally- covers alot of Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st class requirements they already had)and because for the award we would have had to do a troop service project at camp. Because THEY didn't participate - the TROOP could not get the award. One of these boys went to the other camp, also. there he teamed up with another, older boy, who had previously lost the election for SPL. The two of them deliberatly undermined the direction of the elected SPL, played tricks on him and others and by friday had our SPL in tears and ready to quit the troop. ( WE really, REALLY don't want to loose this SPL - he's one of the most awsome kids i have ever worked with - but he's also a sensitive kid - one of the things that makes him so good a leader for the younger boys, but vulnerable to these kind of things) My question is - what can we do to make these boys see that they HAVE to be a team? this is NOT an individual competition? Our troop has other problems that we are dealing with - but this could break the camels back. Any ideas?

As the parent of an ADD/gifted 12 yr old scout - these are all some very good suggestions! One thing to keep in mind, though - ADD/ ADHD is different for every child - for example, my son IS hyperactive - he wiggles, taps, hums and whistles his way through a day - making him be still is sheer torture for him. But he HATES sports. his lack of physical coordination makes him think of any of the suggestions for running, sit-ups, ets as a punishment, rather than a release. So we give him other outlets for his excess energy - Two of our ASM's have a "chemistry" with my son - i think because they see themselves as boys in him - and they are great in that they consistently ask for Jon's "help" - in schlepping equipment, being a demo person in first aid and other teaching examples. This gives him that "physical" outlet and keeps his attention focused. One of them found out that Jon is somewhat of an expert for his age in astronomy - and enlisted Jon's "help" in leading a star hike on a recent campout. This allowed Jon (who can sometimes annoy the heck out of his peers) to shine and gain the interest and respect of his peers. Not all ADD/ADHD kids ARE physical and Agressive - in fact many aren't. They ARE impulsive, and often immature for their age. Structure & consistency is VERY important. Inability to sleep, or "wind down" is very common. I have alot of trouble getting my son to go to sleep at home - but not on campouts! One thing that I think helps with this is that we have small tents in our troop - 2 boys to a tent. In a pinch or with an odd number, we can do 3 in a tent. But with only two - when your tentmate passes out - it's kinda hard for the other boy to keep awake! Also - you might look at your evening "down time" - are the boys all awake and active before they go to bed? Have they just finished roasting marshmallows or telling gristly campfire stories that make them listen to every rustle of leaves once they're in their tents?? For ALL the boys -- it might be helpful if you plan to finish all treats at least an hour or two before bed. Wind down with some quiet star watching, campfire (non scary) stories, music or singing. As for involving the parents, There are ways to involve them WITHOUT having them hang over the boy. You might point out to the parents, that if they were willing to serve - as committee members, fund raisers, merit badge counselors, etc, that would free up you and the ASM's to work with their child. I figure that if I am there, that frees another adult to work with my son. Yes, I keep my "Jon radar" on, and am prepared to intervene if necessary - but in 2 years with our troop,it really hasn't been necessary. Mostly, my "intervention" has been in the form of being open with the troop adults about my son's abilities and problems, and giving them suggestions on what works with him and what doesn't. Also, because I AM involved with the troop, I KNOW the boys personally, and can talk to my son outside of troop activities about getting along with all of them. Scouting has helped his socialization skills immenseley. The only thing that probably WONT work is getting additional meds - ADD meds are ALL stimulants. He might "behave" better - but he would definately stay awake longer. And the next day he would be a wreck. Unless they give him some kind of medication to help him sleep - and as an ADD parent who's DR suggested this,(and we tried it - not good!) I know that I and most other parents of ADDer's will fight this idea. Would you want to give your child stimulants by day and sleeping pills at night? It's bad enough that we have to medicate them at all!

As a camper in the 70's, we once had a tornado / windstorm that picked up a platform tent and moved it about 20 feet, blew out all 4 beds and gave the girls in it a wild ride - but all ended up safe and got into shelter - and it now makes for a wild campfire story - the stuff memories are made of. however, i wouldn't advocate PLANNING on camping in a tornado - hard to keep track of your stuff... But other than severe weather - which NOBODY plans on - any weather is good camping if you are prepared. I particularly like winter camping - no mosquitoes!

Some people look on obesity as a medical problem, but the majority still think of weight and other "invisible" disabilities as a character flaw and lack of discipline and excercise; despite the "PC" lip service otherwise. They may SAY one thing - they BELIEVE otherwise. I'm 5' 10" and a good 80 to 100 lbs overweight. Depite my weight (or in spite of it) and it's attendant problems, (bad back, knees, less energy, etc) I still camp, fish, swim, walk, bike, canoe etc. with my son. I just do it more carefully and slowly - may not get as far on a hike or bike ride - but i am working and trying much harder than anyone else there - just to keep up with or at the end of the group. And I cetainly wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it. I just spent a week at camp with my son and his troop - in 95 degree heat and unbearable humidity, and at least part of the time, (until the midweek rainstorm) I was miserable. So was everybody else. Fat people sweat without trying, though - I think even my fingernails were sweating! Our site was a mile from the waterfront, and a mile in the other direction from the scoutcraft and nature area where our troop spent much of their time. Up the hills, down the hills, with deep sand paths - walking for me was much harder than it was for my co- leader - I carried that extra poundage with me every minute! My knees were killing me, and I wore blisters on both feet. I might've moved slowly, but i got there! My co-leader at camp was a 5'1, 100 lb mom in great shape. She bounced all over camp with terrific energy - and more than once made the comment to me "It's not far, only a mile!" (or 2 or 3!) I'm not telling you this for sympathy - I'm saying it so you will understand how much harder EVERYTHING is when you have a disability - especially one that isn't obvious and recognised as such. people understand and adjust for loss of sight or hearing, or having MS or diabetes, or asthma - but if you're overweight - you're just not trying hard enough. I think that each boy should be judged on HIS merits - keep in mind that a tiny advancement or improvement may be monumental in perspective to where they started. My son is ADD - and his abilities range from 2 years younger than his "cronological" age in social skills and physical ability, to high school and above in his ability to read, do math and science. Is it "fair" to hold him back in rank advancement because he can't do a lot of pushups? To my way of thinking, pushups aren't very important of themselves - but the initiative to try and to improve, IS. Is it important that he know how to swim? not really - UNLESS he likes to boating, (which he does) and then he must logically be able to swim to shore without panicking, in case the boat leaks or flips. I think the point of the advancements are to see that the boy sets a goal and works towards it - not all are going to be Eagles. Advancements and merit badges are a means to teach - not an end in themselves. But if a boy needs a reasonable substitution for a requirement that he cannot do or is unreasonably difficult for him - then we should make a substitution. Laura

Thanks for your reply - It is a flat water pond/ lake - no motor boats allowed - in a county conservation site - But we are not a council or district. Still.... gives me some ideas, if not for this time, maybe a good district event for a day of water sports - with webelos and scouts - I'll have to mention it to our district people....

Can a BS troop that is planning a overnight campout and some canoe training on a small lake, invite a webelos den(s) to join them for one night or for the day? We have our own canoes and equipment, and some newer boys in our troop who are strong swimmers, but have really not had much experience in a canoe. This is a tiny lake (pond, really) shallow and calm, and we want to teach the boys paddling skills, how to manuver, steer through obstacles, how to right and empty a capsized canoe, etc. we were thinking of making it a water sports day, canoe tug of war, and obstacle course, a relay race, things like that. We have a Den guide that wants to invite his webelos den along. I think it would be a great recruiting opportunity - What are the BSA guideline for webelos canoeing? We have a number of "safe swim" and "Safety afloat" certified adults, a red cross lifeguard, and a number of boys who have their lifegaurding badge. I think what ever saftey certifications we might need would be covered. But CAN webelos go canoeing? what is the required adult /child ratio for webelos in such an event?

Our troop T's are pretty sad - heather grey, 95% cotton, hot and heavy (I suppose somebody once thought they would be absorbent or something) and our troop logo is silk screened ( patch size) where the left brest pocket would be (if they had one) The heather grey isn't bad - They hide light dirt and stains well, and wash up nice. The light color reflects light, and isn't supposed to attract the bees and bugs - light color means good visibility of the boys at night and dusk. But they are so .... blah! The logo is so small, and on the adults and boys who like their shirts big and loose - half the time it is under your armpit! We recently did a fundraiser, but few were aware we were Boy Scouts - because our shirts were so nondescript - no one could read the logo! So we're thinking of a change - Since we have SO MANY of these grey shirts, some printed, some not - it has been suggested that we Silkscreen a new, bigger logo on the back? maybe in a color? Does anyone have any suggestions for doing it ourselves? alot of the boys already own 3 - 5 of these shirts apiece - because they are required by our troop at summer camp. It would be a big cash outlay if everyone had to buy all new T's. If we could have the boys bring all their exisiting shirts and have a silk sreen day and "renew" our old shirts - it could be lots of fun AND economical. does anyong have any idea where we could find out how to do that? Going onward, we would like to get something with more impact though - We could phase these new shirts in as they outgrow their old ones... What colors, & design ideas do your troops use that really look sharp and eye-catching? that hold up well to camp wear, and can take washing out of lots of ground in dirt from camp? That are COOL in the summer? Where do you find them, or have them done, inexpensively? Some of the adults would like to see a polo type shirt for the adults, and a T for the boys - what do you think? I saw a troop at camp last year that had a different color troop T for each day - Monday they were all red, Tues was Yellow - one day they all had tie dye shirts! At least THAT troop knew their boys changed their shirts everyday! LOL!

We require our boys to wear uniforms while traveling. If a boy "forgets" his uniform, well then, we have a few outgrown, hand-me down uniforms with troop insignia and no rank patches in the store-room at the church - ALL troop members, including ADULT members (not parents, but all registered troop members)MUST wear a class A uniform. I'll tell you, that storeroom is an effective tool - only twice has somone "forgotten" his shirt, and had to wear one from the storeroom - the shirts in the storeroom aren't bad - but nobody wants to wear them! At camp, non-BSA approved fundraisers, summer (outdoor) meetings, and various other events, our troop T-shirt is acceptable wear. At Camp Lowden, where our boys have gone to summer camp for a number of years - the camp program requires class A's for morning flag and breakfast, and again for dinner. The troop requires the troop t-shirts for the rest of the day / week. One idea is to wear your class A OVER your troop T - and peal off the class A when you get messy or need a quick change. But when it gets to be 90+ degrees and humid - that's not a good idea. cold weather uniforming is a problem - no one sees the uniform under coats and they are NOT warm. I have seen some nice ski hats with BSA patches w/ troop numbers that work well, though.

Most scout camps have a fallback for "picky eaters" - maybe you should, too - At every resident camp I have ever been to - as a kid or adult the mess hall always had bread, butter, peanut butter (protein), sometimes jelly, out. A kid never starved. In addition, most meals had at least one item, SOMETHING most kids would eat - carrot sticks, fruit, etc. Breakfast's fallback was plain cold cereal (Rice krispies or something unsweetened) or oatmeal. As I LOVED oatmeal - it was sometimes hard to choose! I would make it clear that special food is not allowed (unless she can come up with a Doctors notice on the kid's health form that says Jr is allergic to any food not wrapped in styrofoam!) If the child DOES need a special diet (we have some that are lactose intolerant, and one with peanut allergies) of course you will work with the parent in making sure an alternative is provided, and that with touchy things (like the peanut allergies) the parent could be included in menu & ingredient choices. (an ideal opportunity to teach the boys about reading labels and choosing how they prepare meals!) Last year at camp, I did bring popsicles and cans of soda to the camp when I joined them midweek - 1 each for all the boys - because it was my son's birthday. I figured in the heat of camp (we had 100 degree days that week) - those would be a more refreshing treat than a cake - and it was really special to the boys. BUT, I also got an OK from the troop before I brought the stuff. Our troop does bring additional food to camp - bought and shared by the troop. The boys can put in requests prior to camp - but snacks are healthy ones - fruit, raw veggies, granola bars, peanut butter, cheese/sausage/ crackers, trail mix, etc. We also keep juice available, and sometimes, milk, tea, cocoa, etc. The boys know where the food is, and can get some whenever they want - usually late afternoon and before bed. My son is also a picky eater. He is also Attention Deficit and on medication that reduces his appetite, and has irritable bowel syndrome as well. It has been a struggle to keep him from loosing weight, while he gains in height even at home! Also, he has ALWAYS been a slow eater. Though there was plenty of good food at camp, which even Jon liked - and enough for seconds - but you only got seconds if you were fast. Those boys were HUNGRY! Jon NEVER finished in time to get seconds, and was often hungry later. If it weren't for our troop supplies, he would have truly been hungry - and no boy should actually go hungry at camp. while the boys don't neccessarily know of Jon's medication and stomach problems, the adults do - and it's on his medical forms. your issue, however, sounds like a clingy mom and a spoiled kid. THIS week - if you can't stop her(or don't want to make an issue in the middle of camp)- I would at least tell her & the boy that if he doesn't eat with the other boys, then he shouldn't be snarfing only the "good" parts of their meal. (a scout is courteous, kind & friendly) And he cooks & cleans up whether he eats or not. (a scout is helpful, obedient, cheerful, clean and loyal to the troop) It's all part of the program! After camp, i would sit down with her and discuss the problem. Does the kid have a medical problem? even a marginal one? can you work it out within the program? But make it absolutely clear that the fast food has to stop. It is absolutley not fair to the other boys and will not be tolerated. Good luck!

I still remember the "unfairness" of never being allowed in the canoes at girl scout camp - because I could not finish the red cross swimmers class. (required by our GS council camps to canoe and sail) I could swim well - and my family were avid canoers. I probably knew more than most of my counselors about handling a canoe - but every time I signed up for a red cross course - I got an ear infection and had to drop out - so I never got past intermediate level, and I never got to canoe at camp. It wasn't until I became a counselor, and they let us take a 1 time swimmers test, that I was allowed in a girl scout canoe. Was that fair? there has to be a line drawn somewhere - and their line was the red cross swimmers card. It's the same kind of thing with the Tote 'n chip. it really has very little to do with the card itself, but the documentation that the child understands the safty responsibilities that go along with the priveledge. In the case of your boys, it may be a retest for them, but that's the line that is drawn. A Cub scout card allows a boy to carry his knife at CUB scout activities (where appropriate - i would NOT let a boy carry a knife in public, or, for example, at a derby) Remember, at CUB activities, there is a much higher ratio of adults to boys. At BOY scout camp - the boys are often on their own - and the temptation to use those knives for the younger scouts is great. Getting their Tote 'n Chip is a strong reminder and review of the saftey requirements - and gives them added skills. And having a BRAND NEW card, that might be taken away if abused, is an added incentive to use knives responsibly. Still - there's not a whole lot of difference between an 11 yr old webelo and an 11 yr old scout - about 3 hours after they get their Chip, you'll find the whole group around camp whittling on sticks - and what kind of odds will I get on betting that someone will walk into a safety circle, or cut towards themselves, or be working with a dull knife, or forget some other rule that they JUST LEARNED? How many of your boys have forgotten some rule? If you have boys that are ALWAYs perfect on remembering their rules - WITHOUT some adult standing over them - I'll eat my neckerchief! ;-) Throughout their lives, boys will have to "prove" and test their skills over and over. This is one of those times.

Lots of good advice - We do have the COR involved - She is the Mom of our new/acting/temp Scoutmaster. Like I said, they are a scouting family from way back. I have no idea how many hats she has worn in the district, but they are many, and she is a terrific resource. We have only 2 arrowmen in our troop - one boy working on his Eagle, and our new scoutmaster to be. Unfortunately, OA in not very active in our area - wish it was. We did just have an OA election, (first in years) and some of our boys will be "tapped out" at camp this summer. We also just sent five boys to JLT camp for a week, again, for the first time in years. Actually a group of 5 or 6 of us have taken advantage of all the training offered this spring, (Basic leader, SM and ASM, Committee training, and other training) and while we are a little green - we do have a solidly trained group - except for this one person, who, of course, did not take advantage of the training offered. It is these "new trainees" that are encouraging involvement in OA and JLT, using the district resources, etc. We're having a committee meeting on Mon - I'll talk to our to-be SM and the COR and see what they think about getting a Unit com there. sounds like that might keep it from getting nasty and get some good things going instead. and Bob - thanks - I HAD been thinking of recruitment - but you are definately right - "Focusing on recruitment before your program is working is not the answer." so I'm going to back off on that. I don't need to be pushing MY agendas either ! ;-) I'll try to work on improving our program and seeing what the boys like, with an eye to simply noting what works that we might invite webelos to AFTER we get the team working again. As always, Lots of good minds here - Thanks! lauraT

Just my 2 cents worth- I don't like the idea of using clean up or latrine duty for punishiment - because it's hard enough to get the boys to willingly do these jobs anyway, without the stigma of them being "punishment" jobs. I agree that a scout should do latrines when it is his turn, because it has to be done and as part of the community, everyone does their part. Today your part might be latrines - tomorrow, it might be cooking, or fire duty. I do like the idea of getting the SPL and the PL in on quieting the boys - there's nothing better than peer pressure! (And why should I have to be out getting my feet damp and being bug eaten?) however, we have, if the boys absolutely will not settle down, separated them and put them in different tents. in fact, we have a rule at summer camp that you have to trade tentmates midweek. this has a double benefit of making sure the boys keep their stuff together, and getting them to know other members of the troop, instead of staying only with their best buddy.

We have a very old troop-strong and with some old traditions and lots of community support - chartered for over 80 years. That's good? right? But our troop is in a state of transition, due to some adults who want to act like kids. First, in 2000, we had a group of boys and fathers come into the troop from a pack that allowed these fathers to run things - well, not in the Scout way. Scout rules say that cubs are to be family campouts - 1 parent 1 scout - their pack would allow boys to camp without a parent. they allowed the boys to use knives without earning the tote'em chip - they 'bent' the rules to suit themselves, stuff like that. this did not go over well with our troop, and came to a head at summer camp 2001 - my first major outing with the troop. These fathers started out the camp week - I came midweek - and the unit was divided, those "for" them and those "against" them. They had pushed the boys too hard, and allowed some mean teasing to go on, even teasing and name calling some of the boys themselves. By the time school started these men had left the troop for another troop - no loss, but unfortunately, they pulled away about 8 boys and families from their original pack. then they proceded to "bad mouth" our troop with the result that at 2001 crossover time - we got ONE new boy. Now, that wasn't all their fault - we have been very slack on recruiting - resting on our well-known laurels, so to speak. and we didn't do ANY active recruiting, nor did we know how (or try)to combat their negative talk. We now have about 15 boys, not all active, and a handful of parents carrying the ball. this January, our Scoutmaster annouced that due to health and work reasons, he wished to step down and that we should look for a new scoutmaster. some adults in the troop were asked, and declined the job. one volunteered, but said he would be limited in what he can do because of his work. (He is a great guy who grew up in scouting in the area, in his 30's - not married, no kids - his family is a "scouting" family, he knows the program inside out. He's a great asset - BUT he is not as strong a leader, as our previous Scoutmaster) this man has been our "acting scoutmaster" while the scoutmaster was in the hosp and recuperating, now the scoutmaster is back, but not fully, and we're in no man's land. Now the problem - the scoutmaster isn't quite ready to let go - the new guy isn't in yet, and one of the adults who was asked to lead and turned it down, has taken it upon herself to "run the show" - at least parts of it that interest her. For example: the troop had a trip planned and reservations at a state park made months ahead, she decided another park would be better, and made reservations there, instead. She recently cancelled a day outing the troop had planned, because she thought that not enough boys (4) wanted to go. she called the SPL and had him call all the boys and cancel the night before the trip. We had a fundraiser planned this weekend, and agreed to meet and load stuff at a certain time and cover certain areas - and she again called all the boys and changed the plans, leaving me and another mom, and our two boys out of the loop, and left us to load and do the fundraiser by ourselves. She committed the troop to another fundraiser, without the committee's vote or permission, (raising and selling pumpkins)and then proceeded to call the boys out on a meeting night to weed the patch! In addition, we have some adults who have their own agenda's - but do at least, try to work within the framework of the committee. We have one who really wants to push "no impact camping", we have a couple who are really into badges and advancement- and push their kids like crazy, we have some of the men with no kids - used to having older boys in the troop, who want to do 50 mile bike trips and backpacking and high adventure - when most of our boys are 11 and 12, and haven't ever paddled a canoe! (our bike trip this spring was 25 miles, and for most of the boys, the first time they'd been on their bikes since fall - most were not conditioned for it!) the boys are sick of fundraisers ( which we don't need - that's another story) we had NO activities in June except fundraisers and reg meetings, and the adults are ready to BBQ her over the next campfire! Despite her big independant streak, this woman is a likable and knowledgable asset to the troop - I don't think we really want to push her out (and in the process add to the reputation started by the two dads mentioned previously)we just want to get her to be part of the team. Our troop is getting smaller, and we are getting divided among too many different agendas, and commitments. the boys and the parents that are left are getting burned out and frustrated. It's summer, and vacations and sports are cutting into our time, and I'm afraid that without something strong and drastic - this troop with the great history is going to be just that - history. Personally, i think we ought to drop everything but fun and active Webelos recruiting (like i said - we don't need money) we need boys to broaden our base of interests and adults with skills and commitment to the BOYS. I did quite a bit of training this spring - and the one thing i had pounded in my head, was BOY - lead programming. they talk it in our troop - but they don't DO it. And we have some AWESOME boys, too. it makes me sick to see it falling apart. Sorry this is so long - but any suggestions? thanks!

please excuse my 'still wet behind the ears training'; but in our committee members training this spring - i thought it was emphasised that the CC and any CM's would be welcomed on a board of review. Only a SM or ASM would not, and that is because they sign off on a different part of a boy's advancement - the individual requirements. it would not be fair to have them approve or deny a boy from both directions. the SM and ASM make sure the boy knows and meets the criteria of the rank - the knots, safety requirements, service hours and other technicalities required. The board of review's purpose is to find out the boys attitude toward scouts, the troop and his role in it. Does he know what his new rank means? and is he ready for the reward and the responsibility? As far as involvement with the Troop and the boys, in campouts, activities and even merit badge work, I would think that a CC or CM would be serving the boys well to be as involved as possible. So he can "see" the boys attitudes and relationships in person. A boy's "presentation" of himself at a BOR is not the only criteria for passing him to the next rank - some boys will never be comfortable in that situation & some boys are great "actors" and can present a good impression when they haven't met the criteria. But the BOR gives the board in question a chance to talk to the boy, and (with the boy out of the room) to discuss other things about the boy as well. His behavior at all scout funtions and at all times has a bearing on the outcome of his passing his board of review. If the CC and CM's are not involved in troop activities, how could they know if a boy has meet the "scout spirit" and other intangible requirements of advancement? I think the question originally was, Can a ASM also be a CC AND serve on a board of review? I think the answer would be that an ASM should not serve on a BOA if there is any other alternative. (some troops are tight on volunteers) Especially if he has signed off on some of the boy's rank advancements. he could serve as CC - possibly sit in on the review, to guide and provide input - if he abstained from voting.

excuse my ignorance - but.... I have seen these "square knots" on peoples (adults mostly, some kids) uniforms - many colors, etc - what they heck are they? what are their meanings?

Bumping this up - but also posting my many questions - For troops that have a website - How much did the boys do? How did you get it started? how do free sites ( like Scouter.com) compare to inexpensive pay sites? does a free site "do the job?" We want to post lots of pictures, hopefully a calendar of events, and maybe even some commonly used documents(or links to them on the BSA site and others.) Do you have real computer-savvy leaders in your troop? or did you do this all on your own? Can it be done by computer literate, but not web-designer people? Some of our boys and leaders want to do a troop website - but none of us have any web-creation experience. I'm probably the most computer-literate - but have never built a website. Any suggestions for us? Where do we start?

looks great! How much did the boys do? How did you get it started? Do you have real computer-savvy leaders in your troop? or did you do this all on your own? Some of our boys and leaders want to do a troop website - but none of us have any web-creation experience. I'm probably the most computer-literate - but have never built a website. Any suggestions for us?

we try to do it this way - At our meeting location (a church) we have a main meeting room, with a couple of other rooms off the main one. one room in particular is used for boards of review, merit badge meetings, scoutmaster conferences. It is real easy to grab another passing leader, committee member or parent at a meeting and have them "sit in" on whatever is going on. We stay within line of sight of the door, and keep the door open whenever one of the boys is in there. if a boy is to meet with a merit badge counselor elsewhere, a parent or adult troop member usually goes along. As a merit badge counselor for computers, I often communicate with the boys I counsel by e-mail. Takes the "test pressure" off them, and the written e-mails are then printed and kept as a log of their progress. (It also takes the pressure off me - as I can "meet" with them by answering their notes at midnight! LOL) I have used this communication method for other badges as well - though I only do merit badge counseling for our troop - so I do know all the boys personally.

this thread has my head whirling - alot of wrong ideas that I have been taught.... and just recently, too! And Julia, we have a council list - on CD no less! but members of our troop have had a terrible time getting many MB counselors on the list to answer their calls - much less actually meet with them. We have been trying to build up our troop counselor list, too - and been trying to duplicate counselors, because we thought that a couselor could not sign off on their own child. Can anyone tell me where, exactly, I can find the regs on MB counselors and who they can counsel? I would love to show it to my troop and get them to drop that "requirement". In recruiting counselors, we have gone on the theory that a person does not necessarily have to teach the badge - just have the knowledge to know wheather the boy has learned the requirements adequately. For example, I am a counselor for Photography - and know the requirements well enough to test a boy on his knowledge. But I do not have access to a photo lab, equipment and the like to "teach" the badge. I thought that the point of badgework was that the boy was supposed to learn on his own - not be shuffled through a "class"?

Our troop has come across a great fundraiser - low cost - high profit - very low (pester the neighbors and family) annoyance factor - WATER! yup - plain old bottles of drinking water - the 16 oz size. We buy them from Sam's club (tax exempt, too!) at about $.17 each and sell them for $1 each at fairs, parades, community events. Anything we don't sell is easy to store and non-perishable. (and even if the boys drink some of the profits, it doesn't matter! - we're still way ahead!) We usually freeze about half the bottles (yup - frozen solid) because it keeps the others cold, and we've found that on a hot, humid day, people love to carry around a big ice cube! it melts really fast, and people find it cools them down - we see people walking around with these pressed against heads, inside their arms, on the back of their necks. We now have people looking for our Troop at community events. Our most recent event was a parade in town - 12 - 2:30 - we bought 24 cases for about $140 and collected over $800. - and we were sold out in the first 1 1/2 hours! hey - that's about $300 bucks an hour - I think I'm changing careers.......

I agree with "A situation like this just screams for a Den Chief to work with these boys." and Bob's "continue to work with them in a Webelos two program until the appropriate time to advance. OR make sure they go to a troop that uses the NEW SCOUT PATROL method religiously with these boys. If you mainstream them into a regular patrol they will not last a year." From experience, we had a Webelos leader in our pack, who has a son ("joe")who is Gifted, extrememly high IQ, about 6mos older than his classmates, and has alot of experience, knowledge and support from his "high acheiver" parents. he is the same grade as my Jon, and they are in the gifted program at school together, but "joe" is 11 mos older. She pushed like crazy to get her whole den through to AOL in a little over one year, because she wanted joe in scouts. of her 8 Webelos, 7 got their AOL, All 7 joined either our troop or another local one in summer 2000 - "joe" had just finished 4th grade & turned 11 that summer. My son and his denmates joined the troop 10 mos later at the end of 5th grade - in March 2001 - and by that time, EVERY ONE Of Joe's webelos den had dropped out. Except Joe. Now i have to say that joe is an exceptionally mature kid for his age - and the additional year in scouts really shows, especially next to my son, who, though gifted, too, is also ADD. Joe's parents are still very involved in scouts - both of them - She's troop treasurer, and he's committee and drives the bus - Joe is now a patrol leader. He has earned his first class, and will probably be the youngest Eagle, ever. But -he has alot of trouble with the "social maturity" of his place in the troop. he has trouble fitting in with the boys - he bosses the ones from his own peer group, and they resent it, and he tries to be a part of the older ones, and they feel he doesn't fit with them, either. Whether this works out for him or not - the other sad thing is that it cost us 7 boys who had been together in scouts since 1st grade. ________________ BSA loses too many boys at the webelos to scout transition - we don't need to make it worse. And I'm not going to be popular for saying this; but I have a hard time believing that they REALLY know or understand all 20 pins, and AOL, etc in just one year. A few boys can do it, but a whole group together? Either someone handheld those boys all the way through, or cut some corners, or something. And that's going to make it even harder for them to transition to scouts - ADULTS don't plan and execute the program in scouts, the BOYS do. And 4th grade webelos who have been pushed through 20 months of work in 9 are not equipped to plan for themselves - they've been shuffled through the motions by the adults. I would think they could legitamately move up in Nov or Dec- and I'd aim for that - get a Den cheif to work with them and teach them to start thinking for themselves. teach them the 'patrol method', have THEM plan stuff, and let them fail - that's the stuff campfire stories are made from. see if you could work them into a troop that would make them a 'new scout patrol' when they crossed over - keep the boys together until they become acclimatized. Good luck! ps - sorry if i offended anybody - and if this is too long - it just really is important to me to not loose boys this way. laura

I can only answer this one from personal experience; as a parent and as an adult leader in my son's pack and troop. I don't use grounding at all - as someone above pointed out - that is as much a punishment for me as it is for my son - especially as a single parent! If he's grounded, effectively, I am too! I prefer to take away priviledges appropriate to the indescretion - losing TV, Computer, Playstation or play time, or assigning additional chores. Scouts, church, school events may be fun - but they are also a responsibility. You have a group depending on you, whether you are the motor or just a cog in the works. Whether you have a job or responsibility in the troop - or not - it's a team effort - and even the most insignificant player is important. However, there are some parents who don't value the scouting experience the way I do - and I have to accept that. to some, we're just a babysitter or playgroup with cute uniforms!