LauraT7

You can come to our troop events anytime! We also just started trying to re-introduce "entertainment" at our campfires and evenings - the boys are REALLY enjoying doing skits and jokes, (they grumbled a bit at first, but we insisted - now they're into it!) and some are singing some (rather rowdy) songs, too. This last campout the boys planned the activities and truly worked in patrols for the first time - and for the evenings entertainment? They decided that each patrol had to do a skit or teach a song - and they insisted the "Adult patrol" come up with one, too! I brought out my guitar, (which I haven't had out in years) and we got to singing - found another adult who could play better than me, and yet another adult who could harmonize and a few boys who like to sing , and we stayed up late, seranading the rest. But it is hard to get some to sing - they are shy, or embarrassed, or afraid of looking silly. And if they don't know the songs - it's doubly hard to get them to join in. Problem with learning songs at JLT and Adult leadership training is that only a few learn them, most people don't naturally remember them and then when they try to teach them, it without much enthusiam behind it, because they don't feel secure. Try picking up a few favorites that everybody already knows - old Beatles songs, and folk music. Then introduce 1 or two new songs and teach them - but bring written lyric sheets to pass out. Keep these as a troop songbook and build on it. Hopefully the other adults will join you, and may even have suggestions of songs they remember from their scout days and can add to the "book". the boys will probably join in easily - and can probably teach YOU some new songs (usually a little goofy or naughty - but it'ws all in fun.) It shouldn't take long before you get 'em ALL singing, and the "books" will just be for the benifit of visitors and new scouts. Happy Campfires!

Are you saying that if the hike took them up 250 feet, then down 200 and up another 250 feet, would he count this as 500 feet gained? or 300? I'm confused. The Camping requirement says "Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 2000 vertical feet" I would interpret that as total feet from lowest point to highest. I would think the point was to learn to deal with higher elevations and the resulting physical changes & challenges - If you simply go up and down 4 or 5 times within a lower elevation, that isn't getting high enough to deal with physical elevation challenges.

ScoutMom - at least your ex tried some - mine never did. I know all Mom's are biased - but my Jon is a terrific kid. He's funny and entertaining, ADHD and gifted, which makes for "unique" challenges, but makes for a personality that attracts kids and adults to him. he's a nice person, & simply fun to be around. My ex & I divorced before Jon turned 2. Dad has not been to a school conference since 1st grade, or an event since about 4th grade. That year, Jon got to regionals with his derby car and Dad showed up and embarrassed Jon by picking a loud fight with the judges over the fairness of their decision in a race. Jon left in tears. I cannot fathom why he shows so little care & interest in his own child, and yet, is so possesive of him. he hasn't got a clue as to what makes Jon tick, or what his interests, life and fears are. He has been notified, invited, pestered, & begged to come and participate in things - and never does. He is the most self-centered person I have ever known. I grew up with parents who supported me in everything I tried My mom lead scouts and was the nature lady at Camp every summer - my dad & I learned how to cross-country ski together, and he taught me to canoe, taught me camp skills, and was the co-leader of my girl scout troop. "Grandpa" has been more of a Dad to Jon than his real dad ever has -helping with homework, attending every concert, program, science fair and Cub and Scout award program. It was always Grandpa who supported Jon and picked up the pieces after Jon's Dad disappointed him, time after time. Sadly, we lost my Dad unexpectedly, to a heart attack on Father's Day, 2001. I have always had to be both Mom and Dad to my son. Being that I grew up in scouting, I wanted Jon to have the same opportunities that I did. and I wasn't going to let the lack of a husband or a "traditional" 2 parent family stop that. It has often been really hard to be a single mom in Boy Scouts. In Tigers & cubs,Everything I did was looked on with suspicion. This "exclusive male club" was very leary of a single woman entering THEIR territory. The guys didn't know what to make of me, and the women thought I was either strange or out to seduce their husbands, or both! But I was VERY determined that JON would not miss out just because his dad wasn't there for him. Persistance & a positive attitude helped. That I have a great deal of outdoor experience helped ALOT. I took training I didn't need, to show I was serious and to get the credentials the pack / troop needed. I took the jobs no one else wanted. a unisex uniform, no makeup and no games, and TIME - eventually made the families realize that i was there for my son and theirs - that i could be friends with them AND their husbands without flirting at them on campouts. I guess part of that is why I get so upset at the "no women on campouts" thread. It just perpetuates the struggle I had to go thru. Scoutings values & ideals are terrific - but the operations of BSA are based on post WWII values and the traditional 2-parent family. The facts are that HALF of all children will live in a single-parent household at some time in their lives (from age 0 - 18). That number is growing, and real life is misleading - alot of the families in our troop are re- marriages and step-families, live-ins and grandparents raising kids! These are kids who REALLY NEED scouting - and parental involvement and archaic attitudes are telling them that they don't belong.

Thanks Scoutmom - you're right, i WAS talking about my ex - (and while your ex and mine are probably not the same, they are probably soul-brothers!) And wasn't there someone above who commented on mis-interpreting someones position by using only part of someone's quote? I don't qualify ALL males who want to go off on their own as neaderthals, etc. Nor do I want to change OUR troop (which DOES encourage Mom participation) or someone else's troop that does not - Except in the case where there is no choice for the boy or his Mom. In the begining of this post, webelosmom said that ALL of the troops in her area did not allow Moms on campouts. that doesn't give anyone a choice. I would think that part of the reason troops are visited and chosen by a boy is so that he can choose one according to HIS needs. If he does not want his mom on campouts, he should tell her. My son would! I know boys in our troop who DO NOT want THEIR moms on campouts - but they seem to enjoy the company of the 3 moms who regularly camp with our troop - often seeking them out for a problem or for fun, over the men available. If a boy or his family WANTS an exclusive male-activity troop, they can choose one that operates that way - though, for the life of me, I can't understand why they would! I think too many are making LOTS of generalizations - that ALL the boys would prefer not to have any moms on camputs - some do, some don't That ALL women would "fluff up" or ruin a campout - by being easily offended, freaked out by dirt, germs and bugs, wanting to 'baby' their kids, etc. again, some do, some don't. Why ARE the males so defensive about being without females around? Why do you fel you have to escape the females? if it's : "Well, sometimes the men and boys might be around the campfire, and they might be talking about things that the moms shouldn't hear."!! (From a reason given by a troop in WebelosMom's original post) then I think someone needs to read up on their BSA youth protection program - I can't think of ANYTHING that could or should be discussed between men and boys IN A SCOUTING ACTIVITY that couldn't be discussed in front of mom, also! If it's because you feel they "cramp your style" or because you don't feel comfortable around women - then that's a personal issue - not a scout issue. The world is full of all different types of people. half are female. i can't see anything the boys have to gain by excluding half the human race? I can see LOTS of good things they can learn by being exposed to a variety of trustworthy adults of both sexes, other than their parents. Men (in general) don't have an exclusive ability to understand boys better than Women do. SOME adults, have a connection with SOME kids. It isn't a one-size (or sex!)-fits-all kind of thing. Our troop is a younger-age troop - most of the boys are 12-14. I would expect that as they get older, THEY will be planning trips and activities that will eliminate my participation (I'm not the high-adventure type). As my son gets older, there are things he prefers to do with his friends, and things he (& his friends) like to include me on. But he still asks me to go on scout campouts with them - and as long as HE wants me to - I will!

First I want to say clearly that the following is simply MY perspective and MY point of view. I do understand that other moms and dads may feel differently - especially those in traditional 2 parent families. I am a single mom - I often work 50 -60 hours a week and only have my son every other weekend. His dad does not participate in any of Jon's scout, school, or church activities. If Jon participates in anything, it must be on my time with him. If scouts were "male only" I would only see him one weekend a month! and Jon would have NO parent involvement in scouts! Part of the reason I got Jon into scouting was because of the opportunity for him to know good, strong male role models. (not neanderthals who talk only in sports lingo, act "macho" & are threatend by women on their turf - he gets enough of that crap from Dad) But part of it was for the same reason many Dads introduce their sons to scouting - because they want their child to experience the fun and adventure of scouting, and to share it with them. I grew up in scouting too - and have alot of experience that benifits ALL the boys in our troop - not just my son. if our troop had a "no moms" policy, my son would not have wanted to be in it. We enjoy each other's company, and he wants me there. That does not mean that I hoover over him and tuck him in every night. Because he is ADHD, he has needed reminders at times, mostly about his medicine. But this past year, that has hardly been the case - I hardly see him on trips, or at least not more than some of the other boys he hangs with. He has become very capable of managing for himself or doing without! Many have made comments about "male bonding", using a handy tree and crude humor, etc. there is plenty of opportunity for "male bonding" within the patrols own campfires and activities. Adults shouldn't be in the middle of patrol stuff anyway - except for maybe an occasional cruise through to guide when needed -like at mealtimes. Trees and boulders get regular "waterings" on campouts I go on, too - the males just go a few feet further into the bush, and the females just make ALOT of noise to warn anyone if we stray from the paths. Bodily functions and noises are handled in either a humorous or matter-of-fact manner, depending on the situation. REAL moms of boys are not phased by farting, belching or crotch scratching. It's part of the territory if you have a boy. Jon knows what is aceptible or funny while camping, is NOT appropriate at church. I would hope that those "male role models" would encourage the boys to watch their language and behavior anywhere and with anyone. My Dad was the co-leader of my Girl Scout troop in Jr high and High school. his presence was welcomed by the girls in my troop - they loved having him along - and we got plenty of "girl time" even with a man along. if a parent is disruptive to a troop outing then they shouldn't be there. But if they are folowing the scouting guidelines, then they should be encouraged to participate. Studies have shown that a child who has an interested parent(s) participating in ther life and activities has a much higher chance of finishing school, avoiding drugs and alchohol, and becoming a usefull member of society. and their sex shouldn't matter.

Ok - on a number of posts I have seen people knocking the use of air mattresses and battery pumps, too. Why is this such a big deal to everyone? Many people bring collapsable chairs - No one looks askance at that - why? Cell phones, GPS devices, and walkie-talkies (used appropriately) are common - heck, there's TONS of stuff most troops bring to camp that really aren't necessary, but add to the "home away from home" ambiance of camp. I have a very bad back - which gives me no trouble at all if I lift things properly, know my limits, and sleep with my back and neck properly supported. I always bring my airmattress and a small 6" by 6" by 10" dog bone shaped neck pillow. I use a small rechargable battery pump to inflate it- takes about 1 minute and it's less bulky than the foot pump I used to use. (dizzyness and hyperventilating aren't much fun - Plus, then I always have an extra set of rechargable batteries for my flashlight!) I have been on many campouts with cubs and scouts, and 2 years of summer camp. Most of our boys use those thin foam pads to sleep on - some have those 2" or 3" self-inflating foam /air mattresses - most adults have these - some use both together. I have tried all of these and wake up stiff and sore. Some people also admit they are uncomfortable, but stick to the pads, anyway. Why? I can understand using the pads for backpacking, where their light weight is important. But our troop has only done 1 true backpacking trip in 2 years - our boys are just working up to such a trip (mostly younger boys) But on a whole week at camp - it just doesn't make sense to me to have the boys or adults be tired and uncomfortable. with the jam-packed,long, full days at camp - they NEED a good nights's sleep. My single air mattress is much easier to pack and handle than one or two of those big roll up pads - slides right into the stuff bag with my sleeping bag and I sleep better on it than in my bed at home. My point is NOT that everyone should use air mattresses - but that 1) they should be comfortable 2) their equipment should be suited to their needs and the kind of camping they are doing. 3) they shouldn't be put down for personal preferences or needs to me it is no different than realizing that Dutch ovens are too heavy for a backpacking trip, but that they are essential to a full week at camp for those wonderful dinners and late-evening cobblers! comments anyone?

Oh, boy! We have one of these, only it's a husband /wife team and their son is now Star and thinks he can run the troop singlehandedly. Admittedly - he's a good "tester" good at school, too - but doesn't retain what he knows. - he can 'study up' and tell you what he needs to know, but practically? on a campout? Well, last campout he pitched his tent in a gully, hidden by weeds, and got wet and bug eaten and nearly broke his ankle on a root going to the tent at night! Now this boy's Dad wants to be our SM! As for the requirements, well, it's actually "Since joining, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities ( other than troop /patrol meetings), three of which include camping overnight." (straight from the handbook) that means at least 3 separate campouts - not 1 week at camp! however, for the rest, if your camp has a good "first class express" program, he could very well complete a large part of his requirements at camp. A big problem in bridging from cubs to scouts is that den mom, ASM or any other position, in CUBS - any adult is "akela" and can sign off on a rank requirement and home/family activities count- in BOY SCOUTS it must be a SM or ASM. Which leaves out most family activities unless the boy can show or explain them to a ASM or SM pretty thouroughly. Our troop has two unofficial policies - as we have adults and committee members active with the troop who are NOT ASM's or SM. There are two instances in the scout handbook with requirements for each rank. ANY adult may sign off on the front that they have witnessed a requirement being met(and most parents don't, anyway) and a ASM or SM will look at that, may ask a few questions, and will then sign off in the BACK of the book. The BACK of the book is the boys official rank record. In rank advancement, a parent of whatever position in the troop will try to avoid signing off on their own child's advancement or badge work. the exception is when that adult is the ONLY badge counselor, or rank expert readily available to the troop. I have to wonder though, at this push to be first class in one year - I understand the retention hype - but don't know if I believe it. Ok, so a kid get first class in one year - now he's finished 6th grade and used to fast-tracking through ranks - 4 mos for Star, 6 mos for life, another 6 to eagle and his project - he could be DONE by the end of 7th grade or ealy 8th grade - WHY?!? What is the big push??? All the boys I've seen who hit 14 and 15 feel there's not much for them to do and go off to pursue other things.

we have a small troop - 18 - 20 boys. Mostly 12 - 13, some 14. 2- 11's, 2- 16's. they have a wide range of ability and interests, some like long, strenuous activities, some like hiking and biking, but want shorter trips. some want to "go & see" museums, history stuff, spend a night on a sub, that kind of stuff. others think that's boring and want high adventure hiking, biking, climbng trips. How do you accomodate a variety of interests without watering it down too much for the high adventure group, or making it too much of a marathon for the low-key ones? We really don't have the adults to do totally different, multiple outings in a month. any suggestions?

Ok - lots of Dads - no Moms? I'm still thrown sometimes by the male exclusivity of boy scouts. I don't think "scouting" in any form should be exclusive. I grew up in Girl Scouting, and while my mom was our troop leader, camp nature lady, on the district committees, etc. my Dad was always involved too. 'long about Jr high, he officially became a girl scout leader. he didn't do meetings - they were after school and he was at work. But he participated in everything else, including every campout. my folks were "cool parents" and my friends envied me. Even if they did hold me to a higher standard (I thought)than the other girls. Now, I am a single Mom. My ex has no interest in our son's school or scouts, or church activities. His loss. I got Jon into scouts because i knew he's love the camping and activities I loved as a kid. Good male role models are important, but secondary. I got into leading scouts, for ME. I love kids. I like Jon's friends, I've worked in the computer lab at his school, taught sunday school, and lead his cub den and now a leader in his troop. Jon has always known that I do it for him - it's one way for us to do things together that we otherwise couldn't do - but i mostly do it for ME. He will seek me out to share his adventures or his accomplishments -or when he is sick, lonely or hurt . He knows he always comes first with me. But he also knows that he gets no special favors over the other boys. He can ALWAYS get a hug - But I'll never excuse him from latrine duty! LOL!

Thank you all for your input - Our CO IS starting a venture crew - in it's infancy now - I don't think they've actually had any meetings, but they do have kids lined up. that's where our old SM is - he is the new Venture crew leader. the general attitude seems to be that the venture crew will detract from the troop - where I think it can only ADD to the troop - especially for those boys that crave this high adventure. There's nothing that says they can't belong to and participate in BOTH Scouts and Venture. They may conflict at times and the boys may have to make choices - but that's life! problem is, these boys are mostly 13 - not old enough for venture. As for a venture patrol - the troop isn't big enough - and we've scrambled the patrols alot in the last year. the genral concensus is to leave them be as is for now. Dan - I agree that I shouldn't leave until I know there is a problem - but the troop HAS been a problem for over a year. This man is volunteering for the SM job primarily to give his son the program his son wants. he has no interest in the other boys, other than how those boys affect his kid. If the artsy / unathletic boys, or those with Asthma, ADD, ODD, Tourettes, and whatever else we have in our group drop out - he won't care because he doesn't know they exist in the first place! The bike trip was one weekend, and the hike was another - we do one campout a month and these were the only campout events offered in those months. (We only have 18 - 20 boys) that's why I think that there should have been an option to bike the half - trip or the whole. two separate outings would be too hard - but ONE outing with different ability levals is very do-able. As someone mentioned, "The secret is that you have to ride to be in shape to ride." - I know of at least 3 boys on the trip who ride their bikes to school (a few blocks) and not much else. Personally, I haven't been on a bike since our last trip with the troop - in May! (that's why I volunteered to drive the bike trailer, instead of ride) The family who wants to lead is more like the ones who bike everyday and take 20-50 mile bike trips on their own - so to them the distance seems reasonable. only a handful of the boys do that kind of riding - tho I was amazed at how well the others did. Actually the boys DID plan this one - the problem there is that we have just started implementing boy-lead program and real patrol work, and they don't know HOW to do alot of things. like planning. the patrol leaders are all first class scouts & above, and all very athletic - so the PLC "planned" this. Instead of getting input from their patrols, THEY individually decided what they personally wanted to do. Their previous idea of boy lead program was that the boys would say - we want to hike, or we want to bike, and the adults would make it happen. and the adults have a hard time letting go, also. up until the day of the trip, I could not get any answer as to a specific location of the bike trail, the length, etc. many of the adults had been on this trail before, including the old SM. My research showed it to be approx a 14 mile trail- assuming I was finding the right section of trail by the vague info I was given. When we got there, the old SM was leading this particular trip, and he decided we would do round trip - 32 miles. Some of the boys, with some of the leaders continued further up the trail and back, making it 40+, some did the 32, one parent dropped out with his son at the 10 mile, and went back. I was supposed to meet the troop at the halfway point (16 m) for lunch - they didn't even know the name of the park - though supposedly the troop had done this same trip at least twice before! My "job" in the troop is activities & transportation chair -I do the reservations, get a bus driver, drive the trailers, get driving maps, etc. so you can understand why this part of the planning is particularly important to me. Still, I can see great improvment in the boys and their attitudes - it's the adults that frustrate!

I would also agree that attendance is NOT a sign of scout spirit - My son has LOTS of "scout spirit", but often misses and event because I am divorced and it falls on his Dad's weekend - Dad doesn't "do" scouts or anything inmportant to Jon. Jon has no control over it and neither do I. Until he is 18. WE have another boy in our troop who bad allergies, asthma, and has a heart condition. Most of the time you wouldn't notice it at all - others, well, his parents keep him home sometimes because his immune system is low and it doesn't take much to push him over the edge. He's been with the troop almost 2 years and did his first ever campout this summer. But he'll probably not have the stamina to do a 50 mile bike trip, ever! We have another who loves scouts, but HATES bugs! he ONLY does winter camping! With confimation starting for many of our 7th & 8th graders, sometimes they have to make a choice. in our case, confirmation is wednesday - which had been my son's night with his Dad. Luckily Dad chose Tues to to replace it - but now Jon has scouts mon, Dad tues, Confirmation WEd, and a gifted class on thurs. That makes for an awfully full week! sometimes, with homework,and everything else, scouts has to take a turn!

I have posted before about some of the adult ego problems in our troop. We have been looking for or without a scoutmaster since last Feb. our "acting" scoutmaster is trying, but he is a young man, former Eagle scout, single, no kids and too involved on other scout things (OA, district) and his work to really put in the necessary time. He usually can't make campouts, and we have a group of adults who want to direct, but no take the ultimate responsibility. He is not a strong enough personality to overcome them. One dad showed interest in being SM, he was politely directed to join the comittee and get his feet wet first - as he had no experience in scouting - not a bad idea, but our committee's egomanics and infighting would scare away the toughest drill seargent. (by the way - this man has been on a few of our outings, and he has is awsome with the boys - his son is also one of our top scouts - who recently won an area "scout spirit" award) Now another Dad has stepped forward - unfortunately the husband of one of our biggest committee (treasurer) egos. their son is an extrememly bright (gifted) kid who has been pushed through the program since tigers by his parents. Got his Arrow of light in 4th grade and joined the troop the summer prior to 5th. he is just 13 and a Star. They have blind spot when it comes to their kid and think he can do anything. alone. He CAN do alot - but he bullies the younger kids He choses what and when he wants to participate in and even managed to manipulate our SPL into following HIS program. He is a VERY smart, manipulative kid - learned at his parents knee. This kid wants to do high adventure - went to two sessions of camp this summer. He certainly has the energy for it. He knows alot of stuff, but he does not have the maturity. He alternately supports and belittles the other kids, depending on his need for them, I caught him playing with matches at camp, he lit the lantern twice with no adult in camp, He wanted to teach the new boys knife and axe at camp so without dissussing it with any adult, he took the troop axe out of the campsite without permission. when an ASM saw him and told him to put it back, that the boys were doing just fine learning in the Tot'n'chip program - he talked another boy into taking the axe AGAIN, for him and removing it from the troop site and was found "teaching" with a group of new scouts crowded around him - no safety circle. His parents know of this and turn a blind eye to it. Now this boy's Dad want to be SM. His dad spent half a week at camp with me. during the whole 3 days he never once left his son's side, except to sleep. He had absolutely no interest in any other boy, unless they were also with his son. He has gone on other campouts with the troop, and the same thing. Now, I put my son first, too - any parent does - but I also spent time at camp reviewing rank advancement and badges with each boy in my group, and made sure to check on all of them during the week to cheer them on, see their acheivements, and generally be available to them. the troop used to be a high adventure troop many years ago. that family wants it to be so again. I don't have a problem with that, EXCEPT that our boys are all 12 - 14 right now and are just starting to re-instate using patrol method, reg BSA guidleines, etc. SOME want high adventure, but are not yet conditioned or trained for it. And they can't START with 50 mile hikes! Some have no interest in it at all, or have medical reasons why they are not interested in 75 mile hikes and bike trips. they'd rather study bugs or geology, or pioneering. there is nothing wrong with either kind of scouting experiences. I feel the troop should offer a variety of experiences for ALL the boys in the troop. but if this family takes over the troop - their attitude is abundantly clear - they think scout outings should be about strenuous athletic/physical activity - always pushing your limits and if you can't keep up, you shouldn't go. They advocate pushing the boys who only want to do half the bike trail or hike to finish. We've already had a number of boys noticably absent from our last outings - a 40+ mile bike trip and a 50 mile hike. I am also concerned about having a Husband/wife team as SM/stong comittee member. The CC and his wife are their best friends - the families socialize & vacation together, their sons are joined at the hip since kindergarten. Some decisions seem to be pre-decided at committee meeetings as it is, because they are discussed between these 2 families in private and a decision is reached, and then they are the majority at committee meetings. It is very clear that if this man becomes SM, the troop will be run to accomodate this one family and boy, and the the CC will follow them. I've put so much into this troop, and have thought of being SM myself - but they are adamant about wanting a MALE SM. and to be honest, I am a single mom who works 50-60 hour workweeks and really do not have the time & energy necessary to be SM. I have told the Acting SM that if this man is made SM that my son and I will be leaving the troop. So has another ASM. Very few know he has asked to be considered. Am I wrong in wanting the troop to accomodate ALL the boys interests? or at least a range that would appeal to more than one area? I'd much rather have the brand-new, know-nothing-about-scouting-dad that asked, than one who is so one-sided. We have come so far with the boys, you should have seen them camping and working IN PATROLS for the first time last weekend. I was SO PROUD of them! But we can't seem to make much headway with the adults!

We were on a bike trip up in Wisconsin, near New Glarus, a pretty picturesque tourist area. the boys had gotton ice cream at a local shop across the parking lot and were milling around, talking to some local boys, one of whom talked to everyone in the ice cream parlor and was trying to impress our boys with his double thumb. A couple of our boys came bounding into the bus, quickly pulled on their sweatshirts over their uniforms, made a few adjustments to their clothing, grabbed a couple of baseball caps and put them on backwards and left in a hurry. I watched silently and when they left asked "What was that all about?" one of the other boys replied, " oh, they think they're going to impress those local kids with how cool and "big city" they are!" I looked at our SPL who was barely containing his laughter, and said, " I suppose they missed noticing that this town is about twice the size of ours?" and our SPL replied "and besides, just how "cool" can you look, when you dress like that but pop out of a rickety, rusty, 1950's school bus with "BSA TROOP 159" painted across it? yeah, they're really COOL!"

Bringing this up to the top for further discussion - We are a smaller troop where our 18 boys are mostly 8th - 10th graders (various ages) It would seem that most troops are organizing their patrols by rank advancement, which roughly parallels age/grade. Our bulk of boys are in 8th grade - and range from scout to star. Some are highly motivated by advancement, others aren't into it as much. Most participate in activities ALOT - but have a wide variety of interests. The "more advanced" ones are highly competitive, high energy, love testing their abilities in activities like 30m+ bike rides and 50 mile backpacking trips, mimimalist "leave no trace camping", etc. however, we also have some who are up in rank - 2nd class or first, same grade/age but have no interest in "physical" testing, are not athletic, & are more interested in studying bugs or astronomy than in plowing through it full throttle! or they have special needs - an asthmatic with a heart condition, an ADD "dreamer", and some who are just quieter and more introspective. The problem we are having is that these less physical boys are not going on trips because they are too physically tough or not interesting to them - and the "fast pacers" say the slower ones should be pushed to do more or stay home. They don't want to make accomodations for them. We are just starting to re-instate the patrol system in our troop - and one of the problems (as I see it) is that the patrols were assigned by a former SM. Part of this was done to separate 2 boys who were ALWAYS together and practically make their own patrol, and part of it was to divide an abrasive personality kid from the few he continually rubbed the wrong way. To some extent, this works - in others - well, the two "buddies" do make a great team - but I guarantee if they were together, they would be elected PL and APL and would run the patrol THEIR way. they are popular,but are overwhelming -not willing share the limelight or decisions! Personalities and egos are a touchy thing in our troop. We have an election coming up in 2 weeks to correct some of these problems. Does anyone have patrols divided by interests? I was thinking of a High adventure patrol for those of Star /15 and above & Maybe a new scout patrol if and when we get any "new scouts". For the "middle" boys - an "adventure" patrol(High physical activity) and an "explorer" (low physical activity - higher learning experience) choice. the Adventure patrol might do a 50 miler backpacking trip - while the Explorer group might choose a shorter historic trail with a visit to a civil war re-enactment - or a hand's on activity. What do you think of this idea? How do boys go about changing from one to the other? do they "apply" for membership to the other patrol? or do they just ask the SM to transfer if their interests change? Can a patrol plan, say a 50 mile backpack trip and "invite" the others in the troop to participate individually? (there's always going to be some crossover interest - I think) If we break into different patrols by boy choice - how do we keep it from being a popularity / "in crowd" competition?

heres a plastic one - expensive, but I found it at SAm's club for $29. 91 !!!! http://shop.store.yahoo.com/welcomedepot/camporkitor.html theres a number to build - search under camp kitchens, patrol box (es), cooking, etc. heres a nice big one http://www.angen.net/~pack21/T21_Kitchen_Box.html fancy ones... http://www.blueskykitchen.com/ versatile one: http://www.u-bild.com/woodworking-plans/446.htm have fun!

I usually take my own tent - I'm 5' 11 and HATE trying to put my pants on laying down or bent double! i have a cheapie dome tent from Sam's Club - but I take good care of it, so it has lasted. Plus our troop has always had a rule about no packs in tents - I prefer to keep my stuff IN my tent!(with frame packs and small tents, I DO understand this - but I think that it contributes to the problem of getting the boys to bathe and change clothes regularly. 11 - 13 yr olds have a problem with "a Scout is Clean!" when clothes and privacy aren't handy!) Our troop also uses the Eureka Timberlines - they seem to be a classic scout staple across the country - though, I have mixed feelings about the Timberlines. They seem to be durable material, however, we seem to get at least one broken pole on every trip - and often zippers are broken or off track. They are large, heavy duty zippers, too. We seem to lose "bones", & stakes, too. the aluminum poles ARE heavy, compared to the lightweight, fiberglass poles used in most of the dome and backpacking tents. If I got Timberlines, or any tent for heavier /longer use, I would get some REAL tent stakes - those little wire thingy's are useless in any kind of wind. I was given the job of reasearching new tents for our troop, and found that the new tents are lighter and not as tough as the Timberlines. I was sure that if the boys were damaging the Timberlines, the new ones we looked at would be in tatters even faster! So our comittee's conclusion was that the boy's haven't been taught how to properly CARE FOR THEM & that until the boys took better care of the tents, we would not be purchasing new ones - as the new ones all seem lighter and more fragile than the Timberlines. We might get a few small, low-profile backpacking tents - for limited, backpacking-only use. Not for a week at summer camp. has anyone else had a problem with broken poles and zippers on the Timberlines? how do the lightweight poles on the newer dome style tents hold up in comparison? I like the airy-ness of the newer tents - esp for summer camp. some of those small tents can get pretty hot and smelly from a week of being closed up and intermittant bathing of the occupants! LOL! Some of the new ones are almost all net - Just think - you could leave off the cover and watch the stars - and NO BUGS!

don't ask for "volunteers" or help - that's too general, and nobody will answer because no one wants to get in over their heads. After all, they think - what do i know about It? call up the parents and invite them specifically to an event or meeting. See them in town, at the grocery, in church, and get to know them. Know your boys, and know their families. Then... "Gee, Mrs T., Johnny tells me you run the neighborhood garage sale and are Mrs organization - do you think you could help me with the troop checkbook and fundraising money?" Hey, Mr B! your son told me about that fly fishing trip you went on with your family last year - d'you think you could teach the boys those fly fishing knots next month? how about Sept 14th?, no? may be the week after? GREAt!" Be specific . Ask for specific help that plays on their skills and strengths. Like the boys, grownups like to be recognized and valued, too! hook them in on one thing and get them involved little by little!

We are working on re-building our troop after some major problems posted on this forum earlier - thought you would like to know the outcome of a plan put in action - The boys had planned a weekend canoeing at a local conservation district park - and the SPL asked me to help with the activities planning. The boys are in a rut - they want to lead, but don't know HOW. they have internal fighting and no resolution for making decisions. They only come up , over and over, with the same events, the same meals, the same thing, year after year. They think planning is BORING and that things just happen - and our troop has gone from the extreme of adult lead repetition of program - to dropping it on the boys with no training for them on HOW to do it. (yeah they went to JLT - but that doesn't do it all) The boy's goal was to sharpen canoe skills, get the unskilled boys some experience, and have fun. My goal for the troop was to see them develop some teamwork and re-instate the patrol method (which in our troop, patrols are used ONLY for lining up for opening and closing flag - yes, I'm serious!) We have some real attitude problems and alot of teasing and put downs, etc. So... we put together some "games" in the canoes - competition between patrols, and awards for the individual games and an overall weekend winner. one patrol in charge of each game - planning, working out the scoring and getting necessary equipment - but an adult leader would run each game, so that all the patrols/boys could participate. The games were planned in a way that you got more points if you used all your teammates, and that the unskilled were valuable to the team as well. Individual boys could also earn points, which went toward their Patrol's total. EVERYTHING they did all weekend counted. Each adult leader was given a number of poker chips - everytime they caught a scout "living the scout law" or doing a "good turn" the scout got a chip - worth 5 points toward their total score. So even if their patrol didn't have skilled canoeists, they still had a shot at winning the total event. We did some traditional scout things the boys usually pooh- poohed - like having a patrol flag, doing skits for campfire entertainment, and having one patrol plan a church service on sunday. They loved it! (Oh yeah, "Mrs T is making us do these dumb skits" - but they had us all rolling on the ground with their parody of The scoutmaster and his assisants!) I never saw so much "cooperation" in this group of boys - EVER. And I didn't hear the complaints I usually get from the younger boys. and I saw TONS more smiles. and nobody wanted to go home. Altogether it was a great weekend, something to build from. There is a light at the end of the tunnel!

I agree with Mike - "Not advancing doesn't mean automaticaly mean a diminished scouting experience." I don't understand this big push to get boys to first class within their first year of scouts - what the heck are they supposed to do the other 5 years? why do so many of the adults put this big pressure on them to advance, advance, advance? It's like we don't consider them "real scouts" unless they are first class? some boys are ready and interested themselves in acheivements and advancement - if so - Great! But when it's parents and leaders pushing them, the boys pick up the competitive atmosphere from them - and then they treat the the lower ranking boys like true "second class" citizens! Personally, that's not very scout-like in MHO. In our area, 6th grade, being 11 or 12, means starting Jr high as well as starting in a new scout troop. It's a VERY tough year for lots of our boys. Pushing rank advancement when they're not ready is counter-productive. We have a boy in our troop who is a natural leader. he's now 16 and our SPL - a great kid, organized, Excellent scouting skills, good with the younger boys, has been a den chief for years. He just got his first class last winter - because he couldn't overcome the fear of being underwater. he's been working on his Swimming badge since he started in scouts - the diving stuff bothers him - and still has not completed all the requirements. He continues to plug away at it, when he can. We just came back from a canoing weekend where his canoe tipped, he got dunked, lost his shoes and watch - but came out laughing - and did just fine. Another kid, My son, is a born fish. He took his BSA test each year at summer camp - no problem - one in a pool, this year in a lake - jumped right in, no hesitation. But when it came time to take his canoe tip test for his Canoeing badge, for some odd reason, he had a sudden fear of jumping in - he didn't like the seaweed in the lake, and it took some coaxing to get him to do it. But if he got accidentally dumped (and he has!) I have no worries about his ability to get out of the water safely. There are all kinds of reasons why they freeze or "can't" do it. Some days they can, some days they think about it too much and fear overtakes them. The important point is, when they do get in a situation where they must swim to get out - can they? That hundred yard swim is strenuous - and for alot of these under-developed 6th and 7th graders, it is just too much for them. The test shows that these kids are really not yet ready to go off on their own - they are not mentally or physically ready for it. So why are we pushing them? Would you REALLY want one of those boys out in a canoe or boat in deep water with little supervision? I wouldn't!

Electronics are not allowed on our campouts and events, though on long rides, we have allowed the boys to bring music tapes and cd' players - which are left in the bus at all times. I haven't seen any game boys - they have been flatly refused in the past, and I think they'd be frowned on if they did show up. Our Troop is lucky enough to own their own bus - and though it is old, it is a great tool. one set of seats on each side is set up facing each other with a table and checkerboard painted on it in between - the boys play chess, cards, checkers, and have other board games to play, and interact with each other. the adults are allowed cell phones, etc - but they use them sparingly. I will say, however, that I found my PDA very handy at camp this year - I intended to leave it in my car - until I broke my watch the first night there - after that - it was the only alarm the troop had, and the only "watch" I had. Plus, we did use it one night for the star charts I had downloaded from the internet - which helped us find a meteor shower to watch at 4 am!

ps - we originally thought some Webelo's might come for this weekend, but it turns out they have another event to go to - so this WILL be all Boy Scouts.

Our troop is planning a canoeing / fishing weekend at a local park. Our boys all know the basics of canoeing - but many have not had alot of experience. this will be on a flat-water pond /lake ( no beach, no swimming) but there is a boat launch and a dock. What we are aiming for is for them to learn skills in a fun way - not just aimless paddling around the lake - where they don't learn much that is useful on a river trip - like manuvering and control. I remember a "water olympics" that my girl scout council used to do each year - things like: *a canoe tug of war (strength and co-operation) *an obstacle course (speed and turns and control) *sink the counselor (put a leader in the canoe and kids with buckets sink it in the shallows -don't know if we can do this without a beach area) * canoe relay race (passing a special paddle from canoe to canoe) What I am looking for are some other ideas to add & offer the boys - they know the skill levels of the boys better than I do - then they can pick and plan the events and supplies they need. Any terrific, fun ideas out there?

An 11 yr old scout was killed this week and another seriously injured when a tree fell on his tent during a violent storm at camp. news article : http://www.dailyherald.com/community/archive_story.asp?intID=3747033&zone=aht All precautions were followed, and this was a freak accident - the tree was a live tree, not deadwood and no one could have predicted it falling - but i am sure the camp staff, troop leaders and members, and families are all having a tough time dealing with this. I do not know Ricky or his troop. But my heart goes out to them - it could just have easily been one of my troop's boys - or my own son. Our troop was at this camp this summer, and it is one of the best, well-run camps I have ever seen in my 30+ yrs of scout camping. they have plans for millions of dollars in improvements (not repairs- the camp is very well maintained) and have put alot of thought into their site and program. My heart just aches for the families, friends and scouts involved. Ricky's funeral is today. I'm sure some heartfelt prayers for his family, and Steven's and their troop would be welcomed.

We have a couple of homeschooled kids in our troop. they need the "drug program participation" requirement of 2nd class. all of our public school kids participate in the "DARE" program at school in 6th grade - but we have no resource for the homeschool kids - no YMCA or other type group that runs such a program in our area, either - Can I just give their parents my son's "DARE" book and have them work through it on their own? any other suggestions?

THANK YOU SAGER! some people tease me about my air mattress - but I don't think they'd want to see how grouchy I can get when I have a stiff back and little sleep! With it, i sleep like a baby - one of the reasons I love camping! I sleep better on my air matress after a day outside than I do in my own bed! As for the benadryl - my son and i both have allergies - and the over -the counter benadryl has been around for awhile - and used to calm kids (and my dog! who's afraid of stornms) for long time. We have non-drowsy prescription meds for both of us, and nasal spray if needed - And you're right - if you have allergies and are always stuffy and sniffling - you tend to not notice it anymore - including the fact that it is keeping you up. (or that your snoring is keeping up your tentmates?) But i wonder, too - at camp this summer, i had a couple of extra air matresses, a sleeping bag and assorted equipment in my car - for 'just in case'. One boy had trouble sleeping - said there was a "bottle cap" kinda thing under his tent floor - bothered him at night - he could feel it through his foam pad. I offered him one of my air matresses - but he wouldn't take it. My son has one of those self-inflating foam matresses - and we left a night early - Jon offered him tahat and he wouldn't take it. I have noticed before an insistence on the part of the boys to "rough it" with bare-bones backpacking equipment when they don't have to be uncomfortable. I'm guessing the other boys would tease them if they went the "luxury" route. But WHY? I know some of the adults have made comments to me about my matress and folding chair but I ignore them. If they had to live with my chiropratic bills they would bring a decent chair & bed, too! ( many do bring chairs) And Again - I am NOT talking about a backpack or canoe trip! So why do the boys feel they must sleep on those miserable foam pads that are nothing? No wonder they can't go to sleep!