LauraT7

Our troop, among others, is having a hard time 'letting go' and letting the boys do what they are being trained to do - run their own troop. there were a couple of good articles in scouter magazine in Oct about exactly that - realizing that these boys are growing up and CAN actually do more than we (as parents and leaders) let them. Anybody else see these? It is my thoery, that despite the temporary pain of mistakes learned the "hard way" - that these Mistakes turn out to be the best lessons learned and the most memorable stories that our boys will be telling future boys around a campfire someday. What do you think? What are your stories, your boys' or your troops stories of "lessons learned"? what hardships, mistakes and forgotten supplies have you overcome and live to tell the tale? I'll start with one of mine: Great Blue Heron GS council, Waukesha, WI. - late 70's We were on a council wide trip to colorado,for some sight-seeing and colorado river rafting. a group of about 30-40 scouts & leaders from different troops, together for about 2 weeks. We had a rented bus, equipment borrowed from the council, and a packed itinerary. The first night or two we spent in a local church or school and didn't actually camp out until we got 2 - 3 days west. When we finally DID unpack the tents from under the bus - we discovered they had sent us the heavy, old canvas round-up wall tents - with NO POLES & no stakes. And there we were - in a private campground in an area with NO TREES. Only tiny 6' saplings that would be crushed by the weight of these heavy canvas tents. And the forecast called for light rain - and 40 people to get under cover! So what did we do? well, - we scrambled for any pole, heavy rock, or stick we could find. we borrowed broomsticks and shovels from the campground management to use as tent poles. We attached parts of the tents to the bus, itself, and somehow created one huge tent for all of us to sleep in. The site had a few picnic tables, and we slid a tent around each one, like a pillowcase - and some of the girls slept in these - we also used picnic tables to anchor one end of our "big tent" The thing looked like "Omar the tentmaker meets a hurricane" - but it kept us dry! and made a story that not one of those girls will ever forget! a call by one of the adults to the council, and the missing poles were shipped to our next stop - where we were able to set up our tents "normally" for the rest of the trip. But there was nothing that could have pulled that disparate group of girls from different troops together into one team,like facing that obstacle - together. So what are YOUR stories?

With volunteers you need to use their skills - not force them into something they don't feel they can handle. Some "chores" lend thmemselves to being assigned on a task basis for example, in our troop, I am "Activities Chair" - which means it is my responsibility to make sure we have permits, reservations, a driver for the bus and any trailers we plan to use, maps on how to get there, etc. on every trip - even if I or my son are not going. Sometimes another adult will volunteer to "run" an event - and that adult will handle the entire event. For example, we have an ASM (& badge counselor)who is a geologist, who is aranging for a day trip for our boys to work on an archelogical dig for a day. He knows the site, people, etc - so it makes more sense for him to make all the arrangements instead of for me to do so. Sometimes, you need to have different people "lead" to avoid burning out your volunteers, though. 6-8 people "running" an activity is too many bosses - confusing for the volunteers & the boys. Besides - as Yaworski pointed out - the BOYS should be "running" things except where adults are asked to step in (such as sharing a skill, judging a contest so all the boys can participate, etc) Our troop's scoutmaster was out for a while (foot surgery) and we needed an acting SM while he was gone. Later, this SM stepped down and the Acting SM has been on the job since about March. he can't make all the trips and meetings, and we don't necessarily have a committee member for all jobs. What we did, which actually worked pretty well, was that the SM assigned an adult that was planning on going on each trip as the Coordinator for that trip. All jobs, boy and adult, reported to that acting SM, to assure that paperwork was taken care of, equipment procured, maintained,activities & meals planned, etc. If the SM was not going, that person would also be named "acting SM" for the trip - for decision making purposes. We have a boy quartermaster in the troop that does a top-notch job - so equipment wasn't a problem at all. We recently started using the patrol method again - and while it took a little shaking down, (and some forgotten food items!) to get them thinking - the boys are doing great at getting their act together. and if you forget something? Well, it's all a learning experience, isn't it? That's what great campfire stories are made of!

We have antiquated patrol boxes and are looking to build new ones. Most troops around us either use big plastic tubs, or the typical 2 shelf / 1 door/work area long box on legs. I have pulled some interesting 2 door and taller patrol box designs. We're thinking of building one for the "adult" patrol to give the boys ideas - they may choose a different one, but we gotta get them motivated- anybody have any good designs to share? What do your troops use? do you keep just cooking stuff in them? or hatchets and stuff, too? do your troops boxes have plates and silverware, or do the boys use their mess kits always? When you built your patrol boxes, what was the approx cost of each? (w/out dishes & equipment - we have that)

We have antiquated patrol boxes and are looking to build new ones. Most troops around us either use big plastic tubs, or the typical 2 shelf / 1 door -work area long box on legs. I have pulled some interesting 2 door and taller patrol box designs. We're thinking of building one for the "adult" patrol to give the boys ideas - they may choose a different one, but we gotta get them motivated- anybody have any good designs to share? What do your troops use? do you keep just cooking stuff in them? or hatchets and stuff, too? do your troops have plates ans silverware, or do the boys use their mess kits always? When you built your patrol boxes, what was the approx cost of each? (w/out dishes & equipment - we have that)

Why can't we all get along? Because diversity is the spice of life? I dunno - but I like a good, intense, but friendly argument, anytime. ( with an emphasis on "friendly" - I can disagree with your opinion, hopefully without atacking YOU personally) Like Yaworski, I like to poke and prod at rules that exist for silly reasons "because we've ALWAYS done it that way" - them's fightn' words to me! I always wanna know WHY - and if WHY no longer exists, or doesn't apply, then I may re-think the rules. But Bob's rules are NOT "Bob's" rules - they are the BSA's rules and BSA rules are often hard to find, interpret and understand - or there wouldn't be a forum full of people asking all these questions - right? He just happens to be very knowledgeable about them. If I had the opportunity - I'd take every training I could under Bob - even those I've already had - just for the wealth of knowledge and practical use of that knowledge that Bob has. I have found help and insight from both of these guys - from the very arguing of an issue - they always seem to take opposite sides on - their dissagreement makes me think. Although I have to say that Yaworski seems to have a real thing about Bob White personally. So lighten up everyone - if you REALLY want to convince someone of your position, or change BSA rules, you'll get there faster by persuasion than you will by attacking someone personally!

At one of my training sessions, another scouter gave me a great idea which we incorporated into our troop. we call it the "troop essentials" book It is a 3 ring binder with medical forms for every scout and scouter in the troop in clear page protectors. Originals with 2-3 copies to give out to camps, etc. It also has our local and annual tour permits, A current troop roster, with home, work & cell phone #'s of families. Also copies of our vehicle registrations & licence info(we own a varitey of trailers & a bus) ins & liscense info on all our adults who drive or tow a trailer, etc. ( the original trailer registrations are kept in the church office - except for the bus's - which is posted on the bus itself) and copies of all the medical forms are kept in the church as well. The front of the binder holds current trip info - permission / contact slips for that outing, permits, reservation forms, etc. We recently started using permission slips for each trip - getting info on where parentw can be reached THAT weekend - But I'm going to suggest adding Lippoeowl's suggestions to it, and the permanent info to the boy's file, as well as a picture. What if a boy gets lost? A picture could be very valuble! The cover is clear pockets, also - the front says "TROOP ### Essentials" but the back can hold an itinerary of the trip, directions or a map of camp, or whatever. It makes the "paperwork" of a trip much easier!

our boys have gone caving every year for 3-4 yrs now. I have a feeling it wasn't done "by the book" - esp since they were told this year that the cave system they had always gone to was "off limits" because parts of it went underground on someone else's property - and the person who allowed them to use the caves had NOT gotten permision to let others use those parts of the caves. (he ran a private cave exploration /campground at the cave entrances, which WERE on his property.) the acting SM is trying to find out if we can get permission to use parts of those caves, or a different place - but it makes me wonder - If something happened to one of the boys, would we be covered? i doubt it. Many of the boys who went in the past are NOW 13 - and I don't think the guy who let them camp and explore his caves went with them. I think OUR old SM and ASM's took them in. That they are well known & used is beside the point - they were down on their bellies crawling through some 5" wet places, and water they were told was "probably polluted, so wash your hands good before lunch!" I'm not being wishy washy about muck - my theory is that the dirtier a boy gets the higher his happiness gauge! If he isn't dirty on a campout - he's probably not having fun! But I don't want to have a boy injured or killed and have to explain it to his parents, either. Especially if the trip was NOT BSA sanctioned. I don't think there is any BSA certification in caving (like safety afloat or Climb safely) But shouldn't there be some kind of certified guide? are there caving certifications? official spelunking guides? What defines "novice activities" from others? (although i think crawling on your belly through water with a helmet and headlamp would probably NOT be "novice" level.) Also, does this classify as "high adventure" and should they have appropriate health forms on file before being allowed to participate?

Ok - so i looked in the book and it didn't say much! It says "scouts who have entered 7th grade or who hold the rank of 1st class or higher" may join and 'experienced scout' patrol - on the page regarding the national honor patrol award it mentions "have 8 members or increase the patrol membership..." but it doesn't say how. In a perfect world, the patrols would be set up properly in the first place - you would have nice little groups of 6 - 8 friends who could become a patrol and happily work together for the duration. Sounds like most of us are dealing with messes we have to fix, though. So how would you handle re-arranging poorly set up existing patrols? (our patrols were assigned as they stand now - 20 boys - 2 17 yr olds who are "Voyager patrol" and into other things - don't participate much anymore) we have one GOOD patrol - Wolf - gets along well, different ranks and abilities, roughly same age - has at least 8 members - including our old SPL, usually 5 or 6 on a campout. We have 2 struggling patrols -Eagle and Indian. Eagle is all first class, 4 scouts, but the PL is a little perfectionist dictator. He has skills, but his way is the ONLY way. He alternately befriends and totally alienates his patrol mates. His best friend in the whole world is the PL of the Wolf patrol (if the opportunity arose, Wolf PL might leave his patrol & join with his buddy). Our newly elected SPL and ASPL came out of this patrol - they provided the only "balance" it had before Indian patrol has lack of skills, lack of leadership, and 1 loud & abrasive personality. The PL is often not at campouts, this patrol has more of the "scouts" and tenderfeet in it. Often these two poor patrols get lumped together on campouts, as each will only have 2 -3 members show up. This creates even more personality conflicts - too many generals. we also have some boys who REALLY want to do High adventure - Mostly in Eagle - mixed in with ones who don't. I'd like to see a shift - let the boys chose to move and make the patrols a venture(Eagle), Experienced (Wolf) and - Experienced (Indian - and work on their advancements & skills) I think only a few would chose to shift - esp as we would have to put a size limit on the Wolf patrol - say 8? (can't have the bulk of the troop go in one patrol!) but how to handle it? have the boys submit their names to a patrol and have the patrol vote on who gets the openings they have to fill? have the boy(s) who want to move apply to the SM and have him decide? Leave the patrols as is and they gotta make do?

Eagle; THANK YOU! Somebody cut thru the fog and made it clear! I think some of the forum comes down hard on Bob because he DOES know the book, but "the book" is often vague and seemingly conflicting with itself. then when people "interpret" the "book" each reads slightly different things into it. I think we have to remember the BSA is a volunteer organization, and that the "rules" are neccesarily lax in some areas because some leeway is needed to make things work. And if your troop / pack does things a little differently - and it works for you, and espcially, THE BOYS. Then those little deviations are fine. some troops are short on volunteers, and some volunteers don't feel comfortable with the responsibility of decisions. you work with what you got - if you got lemons, hopefully you have some sugar to turn them into lemonaide! On the other hand - if your troop is like mine - some sour lemons are hurting the boys - well, then maybe we need some rules to work things out. I think sometimes we need to "hear" a little less judgementally. Bob shares alot of knowledge and experience that i respect - and if he sounds a little curt saying it - just consider that BSA takes reams of paper to say what he's trying to shorten into a little post here. I try to soak in as much as i can from as many sources as I can, sort through it ans use what makes sense ans what i can back up. And in any case, as I always tell my boys - anything you find on the web has to be checked against real BSA documentation. The web is handy, but much of it is subject to error.

Loki- Do you know of any websites that list songbooks, lyrics and E-A-S-Y guitar chords (my fingers never were strong enough to do bar chords and I'm WAY out of practice) But a few adults and some boys in my troop are starting to really get into campfire singing - and we have made lots of new friends in other troops with our music, too! Problem is, I have limited skill and repertoire on my guitar - i need commonly known folk songs, 60's and 70's tunes (can you tell the age of our scouters? ;-) ) and as i am female and don't know the old "boy scout" songs - any sites with music clips for melodies would be great, too. ( I can't read music, but can sort-of follow along) Anybody have any good sources?

I took the "troop committe challenge" in March 2001 - but my book is a little skimpy - more of an outline. It is not the "committee handbook" I think I gotta get one of those. But that's what I thought - the the committee is supposed to support the troop's decisions - not decide FOR them. Granted, our boys have not had older boys or adults to teach them how to plan and their "program" is simply repitition of prior years' - but that's where the scoutmaster is supposed to gently prod them into trying new things, guide them at the PLC? But our scoutmasters don't go to PLC - we have committee meeting on the 1st Mon of the month, WHILE the PLC meets. Then the boys come in and join us, to present their ideas, etc. Their decisions should be given to the committe by the SM or the SPL, shouldn't they?

I'm a night owl in a troop full of early birds. Midnight is my absolute limit though - unless we're all staying up for a meteor shower or something - I know the boys will be up, and cooking - around 6 - at least by 7! I don't even get up for WORK that early! we have one boy who likes to stay up all night and can sleep until noon - if the other boys let him! - if he stays in bed too long, they will go drag him out of the tent in his sleeping bag - which usually does the trick! he often ends up doing the dishes and packing up, because others have already done the cooking, and he gets the leftovers - he doesn't seem to mind this price for his late nights. I think a contributing factor is our policy of keeping the boys so busy they have no time for homesickness, and they're too tired to NOT sleep! Plus we have small 2-man tents - less buddies to talk to! We did have a problem this summer at camp, though - the very first night, my watch (and it's alarm) died. we had a small group -5 boys & 2 adults, and the only other person with a watch with an alarm, was one of the boys. he took it upon himself to get up the appointed "hopper" each morning and get them off to the mess hall. Most of the time, since he was up anyway - he went along and helped. I was so proud of him! But on every campout since then, I make sure I have my watch, my son has his watch, and i have a small alarm clock tucked away, "just in case"

Poket knife apple pie utensils Dutch oven pocket knife charcoal ingredients 2 pre-made pie shells in aluminum foil tins 4-7 apples sugar cinnamon butter peel apples and slice into 1 pie shell - sprinkling in layers apples, pats of butter, cinnamon sugar, apples, pats of butter, cinnamon sugar, etc. Turn 2nd pie shell over first to make top of pie crust. Cut 3-5 holes in crust for escaping steam and pinch edges to bottom crust to seal. Take empty pie tin and place upside down in center of dutch oven. (if you're afraid of drips, you can line oven with foil first -depends on how juicy your apples are)place pie on top of empty tin - put lid and dutch oven - bake until the smell draws all the drooling scouts & scouters. cut pie with trusty scout knife - serve on napkins, cups or just let everyone dig in! MMMMM!

our boys tried this and loved it! muffins in an orange take a med orange and cut off top 1/3rd. hollow out shell without breaking the rind "bowl" and "lid" - eat the orange pieces, or put them in a baggie and squish 'em for orange juice. put muffin mix in baggie, add wet ingredients mix up and pour/ sqeeze into hollowed out orange (about 1/2 the orange full) place cap on top and place in fire coals to bake. (can wrap in foil if you want, but not necessary. about 15 min - depends on heat - pull out and peel your muffin. The muffin takes on the orange flavor - and the only dishes to wash are silverware! We also tried eggs in the orange - and lined the orange with bacon (pre-cooked)so it wouldn't stick to the orange rind so much. Tasted great! but the egg is a little to runny (muffin mix is thicker) - lots of them tip over before they congeal enough to stay put. it helps if you look for a flat spot on the orange to be the "bottom" before you cut the "top" off.

our troop uses two metal oil-drip pans for "no ground fires" camping - you get them at an auto supply store - they are about 18-22' across and about 4-5" deep. - and they nest/ stack together for storage. you can put a dutch oven comfortably in one - even build a small log fire for warmth in them and cook over them - a camfire grill fits very nicely over them, too. last weekend, we turned one upside down on the end of a picnic table and set the other on top and started our coals in it - right on the table! We had the most delicious apple pie! and the table was unmarked!

I don't get it - if you're doing the bleach last - hot or cold - why do you need the middle bucket at all? I always thought it should be the bleach in the middle....soak awhile and rinse the bleach off last. unless the middle rinse is just to get the soap and the remaining food particles off and keep your bleachwater clean longer...

you also have to be aware of laws differing from state to state - most camps will tell you of their requirements. We had our first time at a new summer camp in Wisconsin this year, and State law requires all medication to be stored and distributed by a nurse at camp. I had forgotten this, but this was true even when I was a girl scout 30 yrs ago in Wis. We were used to Illinois camps - where the rules were set by our council - at our camps, they require that medications be registered with the camp office, but kept and distributed by 1 adult in each unit. Boys were not allowed to keep and carry their own meds, except in rare, particular cases (insulin dependent diabetics and asthma inhalers come to mind) We usually look at the bag of meds - and the parent on the campout with the kid who has the most meds, usually gets the job! To Mike Long - If you truly knew any young, severly ADHD boys - "personal responsibility" has nothing to do with it. They seldon can remember, and even multiple reminders often don't help - as they will totaly lose track of why they're going back to their tent - even the 5th or 6th time you "remind" them to take their meds. They usually have to be "off" their meds to sleep, and it is no longer in their system to help them focus on the task of remembering. Some can be taught a habit of taking their meds - most just can't remember - there's too many different and distracting things to make them focus on a silly pill - and then you and your troop will pay the price of having an overstimulated, over wound kid to deal with! If you don't want to handle their meds, I understand - but I hope someone in you troop would be understanding enough of the boy to bug him until they see the boy take his meds! the other issue with "personal responsibility" and having the boys keep their own meds - and esp with ADHD, ODD and other medications for similar things - these ARE simulants and anti-depressants - drugs that have value and could be stolen, or used by another kid for a thrill. Don't kid yourself that just because they are scouts and good kids - that they aren't tempted and may do use them improperly. I don't know about you - but I'd rather dole out the pills as marked on the bottle - than have to explain to Billy's parents that he tried a handful of Timmy's Ritalin 'cause they were just laying around the tent, and that's why we're in the hospital with a comatose kid! Most of our boys ARE responsible about their meds - They know which adult has them, and will seek out that adult when they need to take them. Except for SOME of the ADHD boys, I seldom have to remind them anyway.

Ok, I can't run over to the council office - it's 50 miles away and we have a comittee meeting tomorrow night - so HELP! Our troop committe is going way overboard ( I think ) on making decisions for our troop. We are trying to get back to boy-leadership after a SM that "did it MY way" and a group of younger boys who do not have older boys to teach them the proper "patrol method" etc. They are doing great with getting back into the program - but the adults all have different ideas and aren't willing to "let go" our PLC came up with a plan of events for the upcoming year. Granted - many were uninspired repeats of prior activities, but they ARE learning and trying. Some are hand's down annual favorites - like caving. So what did the Committee do in Aug? approved only Sept and the district camporee this weekend, and left everything else hanging. At a non- regular committee meeting 2 weeks ago, they finally approved the rest of the year, Chose all the dates for activities, but took out some activities (like caving), and put in their own, totally unsolicited by the boys. Now I could see suggesting another cave - instead of repeating the same trip (4th yr now) but do they have the power to totally toss the boys wants? The boys just found out about it this weekend and they are all REALLY upset! Caving in the fall is something they all look forward to. ARe there any online resources, or a "committee handbook" or something someone could refer me to, to give me some backup at the meeting tomorrow night? I've been through my committee training packet - but to be honest - there's not much there - mostly a description of jobs - advancement, comm chair, activities (that's me)etc. Nothing on the job of the committee as a whole. Or is that it? the committee IS those jobs and no more? Please, any usefull links, online training, or email if you have documentation you can e-mail me, would be helpful! pls e-mail to tlaurat7@hotmail.com Thanks!

Our Unit commisioner is also our Chartered Org rep ( I KNOW she is the COR & I think she is the unit commisioner as well, she has also started sitting in on and voicing stong opinions at committee meetings) I know volunteers are hard to come by, but isn't that a conflict of interest? Esp as we are having trouble right now finding and keeping a good SM and leadership? anybody have an answer?

Ok Bob - question for you - the boys (PLC) decided they wanted to go caving in Nov. at the same cave we have gone to for 3 - 4 yrs running. (We are trying to convince them to try new things, but they REALLY LOVE this trip - it is attended by a majority of the troop from Scout to Life) our only 2 older boys, age 17, approached the committee about doing a 3-4 day climbing/hiking high adventure trip in Early Nov (teacher conferences - 4 day weekend) to the Shawnee National forest in southern IL. This trip would appeal to those two and possibly 4 other scouts in our troop of 1st class rank and above. The committe thought it was a great idea. (so do I) But... The committee decided to eliminate the caving trip altogether. Can the committe decide to completely disregard the PLC's wants? What about the majority of other boys who are not interested or capable of the high adventure trip? Aren't we bound to "deliver the promise" to them, too?

Ok, I can't run over to the council office - it's 50 mile away and we have a comittee meeting tomorrow night - so HELP! Our troop committe is going way overboard ( I think ) on making decisions for our troop. WE are trying to get back to boy-leadership after a SM that "did it MY way" and a group of younger boys who do not have older boys to teach them the proper "patrol method" etc. They are doing great with getting back into the program - but the adults all have different ideas and aren't willing to "let go" our PLC came up with a plan of events for the upcoming year. Granted - many were uninspired repeats of prior activities, but they ARE learning and trying. Some are hand's down annual favorites - like caving. So what did the Committee do in Aug? approved only Sept and the district camporee this weekend, and left everything else hanging. At an non- regular committee meeting 2 weeks ago, they finally approved the rest of the year, Chose all the dates for activities, but took out some activities (like caving), and put in their own, totally unsolicited by the boys. Now I could see suggesting another cave - instead of repeating the same trip (4th yr now) but do they have the power to totally toss the boys wants? The boys just found out about it this weekend and they are all REALLY upset! Caving in the fall is something they all look forward to. ARe there any online resources, or a "committee handbook" or something someone could refer me to, to give me some backup at the meeting tomorrow night? I've been through my committee training packet - but to be honest - there's not much there - mostly a description of jobs - advancement, comm chair, activities (that's me)etc. Nothing on the job of the committee as a whole. Or is that it? the committee IS those jobs and no more? Please, any usefull links, online training, or email id you have documentation you can e-mail me, would be helpful! pls e-mail to tlaurat7@hotmail.com Thanks!

I forgot one - this past summer we did a canoe skill weekend at a local park. A new scout dad went with us. he spent most of his time away from the troop, fishing, alone. at one point, the boys left their canoes and pulled them well up on the beach and came back to the main shelter to meet up with the group. There had been a lone fisherman hanging around all day - a young man, about 20, who thought that it would be funny to push all of our canoes adrift as soon as our boys were out of sight. the Dad saw this and confronted him. Got into an argument with him, picked up the guys fishing tackle and gear and threw it into the lake. The ruckus drew our boys, who showed up just in time to see the gear go flying & the guy fall into the lake, too. The Dad came to find me (I was acting SM on this trip) told me only that "some guy set our canoes adrift and we'd better go get them" Only when we were loading up the canoes on the trailer and all the boys & the park police showed up (seperately) did I get the full story. After observing the young man and hearing him talk to the officer - it was obvious that he was handicapped in some way - "not all there" as one of our boys said, later. Both the dad and this stranger got tickets for "disorderly conduct" with the dad insisting he was within his rights to take action against this stranger. there was a disagreement as to whether the stranger was pushed or fell into the lake. Luckily, the boy witnesses were our SPL and two of our older scouts - they agreed to not discuss this in front of the younger boys, especially this man's young son.

PARENTS! the ones who want their boy in scouts (and want him to advance)but refuse to let him go on campouts because he might get hurt or sick from all the plants / dirt/ germs. The boy who used up all his trading post money ($50!!!) in the first three days buying pizza, candy and pop and then wouldn't eat at the dining hall - and when his Dad arrived Wed to finish out the week with us - he gave the kid another $50!! (or more) to spend on more candy, etc. the ASM mom who wants you to pass her kid on a Merit badge requirement that he started elswhere, you haven't seen and he can't explain adequately. "oh, just sign it, he did it already!" parents who want you to sign off on work you KNOW they did for the kid. The ones who send their boys loaded with goodies, pop and money to camp. The ones who try to smoke on campouts - in their cars or in the latrines The ones who know we don't allow pop as part of meals on campouts, but bring their own - and drink it in front of the boys.

Boy, I LOVE a good argument! - but I think this is getting way off the track, and I may have missed some points, too. Youngblood - I think what you are saying is that whether the moms are there to "look over" you guys or not - you'd rather they not come 'cause you're trying to figure out who and where you are NOW and the moms kind of put a damper on things? Am I anywhere near close to your meaning? I wonder if you and your friends ALWAYS felt this way - of if it was something that grew - from you and your friends growing older and testing your independance (and I'm not talking survival camping skills)I mean wanting to be on your own, emotionally, as an adult, in all things. Sometimes kids feel they have to PUSH the adults away to gain some perspective on themselves and find out who they are. Maybe for you and your friends, that means pushing the moms away. THAT I can understand. i don't have to like it, but I can understand it. A blanket rule eliminating all moms on all trips for all boys - THAT I don't get. Maybe when you were the age of my son (12)you didn't feel that strongly against moms, maybe then you didn't mind the moms so much. or even liked having them around. Maybe all you had the opportunity to know was the kind of mom who felt "roughing it" was a hotel without room service. Maybe you would feel differently if you camped with the moms in our troop. and maybe you would have a good time, but still want to be on your own sometimes. Kids grow at different rates - and i think that's where scouters have to tread carefully and get a feeling for when to lead and when to back off. Every boy is different - not all 12 yr olds want mom along, and not all 17 yr olds want to exclude her. it's a tough call for parents - and leaders. I don't like blanket rules. one size DOES NOT fit all. And discrimination of any sort rubs me the wrong way. I guess I have to accept the fact that for whatever reason, some boys don't want me on campouts. But I would much rather they make the choice based on whether they wanted my company, and not on my gender.

ok - here' one for the bicycling badge - the 50 miler requirement. it says "After fulfilling requirement 8, lay out on a road map a 50-mile trip. Stay away from main highways. Using your map, make this ride in 8 hours." With "rails to trails" routes in Illinois, this is pretty easy to do - and lots of options, too. but does the 50 miles all have to be done in one day? It only says "8 hours" not "one day" to me that means at least a certain speed /pace needs to be kept. our troop did a 27 mile trip last may and a 32 + mile trip in august - and even the most fit boys were pretty tired. Even those very athletic and conditioned boys who could have gone further, were "but sore" from their bikes, even with gel seats, etc. can it be broken into 2 days? say, on an overnight? or does it have to be a continuous 8 hrs? what is your opionion? On this last trip in August, we met/ crossed paths with at least 3 other troops on the trail - some repeatedly, as they were getting their "50 miles" in by going up and down a 13 mile section over and over. Somehow, to me, this kind of defeats the purpose - especially since the rail trails go continuously across the whole state - why repeat? of course, they may have had some scouts that did 25 and some 50 - and repeating would allow for different abilities....