LauraT7

I assume that "the church" you mention is your charter organization - and I wonder why they are limiting your boys camping??? it just doesn't make sense - Be that as it may - you probably can't do anything about that NOW - but if it were me, I'd work on changing it. It always annoyed me that BSA limited cub camping to family camping, when as a Girl Scout, I had been camping since 2nd or 3rd grade! Boys are certainly as capable of the skills as girls are! I think part of the problem troops have with boys on troop outings is that they weren't brought up doing it all along! On the issue of "counting" a hike as an activity or an event - I would think that a meeting that encompasses planning or learning specific skills, or otherwise preparing for events is a meeting. If they actively DO something - like hike, or cook, or something else necessary to complete a purpose or advancement, then it is an activity. If they meet for 15 minutes to plan something else, and then hike for 5 miles with a compass - it is both a meeting AND an activity. 11 yr old boys are notoriously bored by "meetings" they really don't need to spend alot of time doing boring "meeting stuff" - so if they meet in patrols & their patrol chooses to use their time for activities, then more power to them! I think the ones who are argueing the point are being too nitpicky and need to find something more constructive to occupy theitr time!

i agree that it is confusing to have requirements change without some kind of warning or schedule - but I also thing that the badges and rank requirements need some updating and evening out. I don't know where they get the committes that update the badges, but why do they always have to make them longer and more complicated? for examples, look at what they've done to the cooking badge - its now about 4 pages worth of requirements! I have nothing against the badges having different levels of difficulty - but so many of them are so heavy on writing and explaining - it's like sending the boys back to school! And if the point of badges is to give them exposure to a field of interest or hobby why are they so long and complicated? My personal opinion is that there needs to be some easy badges and medium ones and hard ones. And that some of the more complicated subjects should be handled in tiers - like the differences between swimming and lifesaving. And whats wrong with having 3 separate badges for Downhill, Cross Country and snowboarding instead of one for snowsports?

Ask the boys that Are in your troop to invite a friend anytime - or have a special nite to invite a friend for a special activity - We have 5 troops in our town and 3 packs - our troop is not affiliated with a particular pack. we have a variety of local boys, from all the packs, a few homeschoolers and some from out-of-town. Since our troop has not actively worked on recruitment in a few years - our membership is down. So we initiated a long-term program this year that will hopefully give us a steady flow of GOOD and varied recruits of all ages for all future years. We don't want a big influx - we want a steady flow. we are planning one Webelos/scout/ invite event every quarter - and get invites out to the packs each time. This way there is no "rush" to get in that webelos AOL requirement of attending a BSA activity - they have a choice, and know there is always another opportunity. We also are targeting the 4th grade webelos - not just the 5th graders, with the idea that they can make multiple events with our troop and actually get to know our boys and make friends. We found that most of our current boys are joined our troop because they already knew, or had met and looked up to an older scout in our troop. This summer, we had an outdoor "cooking meeting" were we tried all kinds of new camping recepies and different kinds of cooking (Dutch oven, cardboard box oven, cooking on sticks, cooking in foil, etc. Since our summer meetings are at the local park anyway - this was really easy to do - we just invited the webelos along. In October the troop went to one of those big corn mazes - this was specifically intended as a webelos invitational - but served our boys as well - the maze was in sections - and totalled over 9 miles if you did the whole thing - so we took compasses and had the boys find their way with them - if they did at least two sections, they had their 5 mile compass hike for 2nd class! and the webelos got to pair up with them and learn to use a compass, too. Then we had a campfire there, and hot coco. In December, we have a "pool party" at the local high school. The webelos will be working on their auquanaut pin, and our patrols will be running the stations of their different requirements. Afterwards we just have fun playing water volleyball. Think of things to attract the boys, get the word out and watch it grow!

you're not the only one who had problems with taking clothes and stuff in a public pool - we can get away with it at out local high school, mostly because they aren't there when we use the pool. They let us in, and trust us to meet their requirements (they require a Red cross lifegard - but they never actually check) We get the life guard AND follow the BSA Safe swim requirements. But our city pool, and all the other public and most private (health club) pools won't even allow you to take appropriate PFD's into the water! (they say this tempts people to trust the PFD's and not monitor their kids adequately - which is generally true!)Clothes as a life saving device? I haven't heard of this being recommened anywhere but in scouting. Yeah - I had to do it as a kid in Girl Scouts, too - but if you were REALLY in danger - my personal opinion is that you would put yourself in more danger by tiring yourself out faster taking off and blowing up your clothes, flailing around in the water, losing body heat, hyperventilating and attracting sharks than you would gain by the short term flotation your clothes might provide. You'd be better off conserving your energy or looking for a piece of floating wreakage or other survivors who were bright enough to keep their PFDS on!

i admit that at home - I can get pretty verbal and loud - but i still hate "yelling" at kids. sometimes you have to shout to be heard - outside, across a gym, etc. But did you ever LOOK at someone yelling? they look really dumb and out-of-control! How can the boys respect that? I used to substitute teach - my favorite grades were 4thgrade thru Jr high - REALLY noisy! One thing that would allways capture their attention was to flick the lights. the classroom lights go out and they would all look up and stop talking. At least long enough to redirect them! I do carry a whistle on campouts. a quick whistle will carry across a field or water MUCH better than even my loud voice - and even loud voices can be ignored. a whistle usually isn't.

to kwc57 15 boys is too many - divide and conquer! They can still do major activities together if you want - but for meetings they should be a smaller group. Besides, this is where they should start getting the idea of working together in small groups - the "patrol method" used in boys scouts. many areas keep a den togther as a "new scout patrol" when they move into boys scouts. the ideal patrol is 8 boys.(give or take) It naturally divides them for games, camping, chores, competitions - and it gives each cub more individual attention. I wouldn't resort to yelling, though - it wears you out and doesn't gain you much respect. Teach them the hand signal NOW and stick to it - it DOES work! Consistency is the key!

Plan for some activity time to burn steam - and work out a regular schedule or plan for the meetings. Teach them "sign up, mouth shut" and NOTHING happens until they recognize that signal. No games, no projects, no fun. AND STICK TO IT. Set strict guidelines and Stick to them! My biggest problem was with my own son, who is ADHD. To complicate things, we met in my basement - to Jon - it was like having a roomful of wild buddies over! Jon had the "3 step plan" - every warning I had to give him got him 3 steps closer to going upstairs (12 stairs)and staying with Grandma! this applied to ALL the boys. if they went up with Grandma - they had to sit at the kitchen table and read their handboook - particularly the promise, motto, or whatever we were working on. kind of a "time out" Meeting in my basement had advantages, though - I could BE PREPARED - have the activities, crafts, games etc laid out, visible and ready to go - if they come in and get right into an activity - they don't even START goofing off - they are too involved in what YOU'VE planned! Make sure each boy is directed to an appropriate activity or otherwise occupied as they are coming in - that way you don't lose control from the begining. Cub scouts is a family activity - Get your parents trained RIGHT NOW to participate. Those of us who volunteer to lead scouts are a strange breed to those who DON't volunteer. They are all afraid of getting roped in to the unknown. Ask for small, specific helps, and build up. Believe me - this will really pay off as your den grows. Start by calling them or meeting with them one on one and finding out what usefull skills they have that you can use. Be imaginative and open. Tell them that you don't expect them to lead (unless they really WANT TO!) but you DO expect their help in whatever form they can give. Make it clear the boys get more out of scouting if their parents participate and support them. Ask 1 or 2 specific parents to stay and help at each meeting - rotate so that it isn't too much a burden on any family. Maybe a mom or two can help you with specific craft projects. Maybe a dad has a workshop or tools he can show the boys how to use. Perhaps someones job might make a good tour or activity, or they have an interesting hobby to share. (I had one set of parents that worked evening shift at the hospital, and could never make meetings - but they took us on tours of the hospital, blood lab and x-ray areas, drove on trips, and did other things) Get to know your boys - my guess is that there are a few who are interested in settling down,at least sometimes! but that there are a few wild ones egging the others on. identify those boys and occupy them with other tasks. Give those "leaders" specific jobs that make them feel important - and let them know that acting up will lose them that job! if they have specific habits or problems, ask their parents for specific help - what works for Mom and Dad? Sometimes I wish my son were Cub age again - we had LOTS of fun!

Our troop uses TM - but I don't have it - our advancment coordinator does a great job of tracking the boys advancements, but attendance? well... mmmm... I guess that's become my job since I attend most of the events with the bulk of the boys. the SM gave me a chart (from BSA) to use - but I had an excel spread sheet from cubs that i just adapted to our scout troop (for activities attendance only) that I keep on my palm pilot and can track who attended. i did just download, and am trying, a tracking software for palm that was free under "Scouting with a PDA" from the USSSP site. So far, i like it. http://usscouts.org/usscouts/scoutingwithapda.asp I only have my son and a few others on it - soon i hope to get the whole troop. I had to download a shareware software ( Tealinfo Database) on a trail basis - that if I like it, i'll probably have to pay $15 or $20 for. In this traking system you start with a screen for the boy with his rank and birthdate. then a list of ranks and completion dates and a tally of how much completed on the current rank ( Jon's says 2nd class 13/24) from there you link to a list of requirements he still needs on a rank, or the whole list for that rank.It gives each requirement in full - not just the number.It allows for you to enter dates of completion for each item on advancement - it also gives space to list which badges the boys have earned and you can list a badge without a completion date to show he's working on it. another link from each boy's screen give a "notes" area, and another you can list activities he participated in. I haven't explored everything in this database, but for a freebie - it's pretty darn good! And if I figure out the main software - it's not bad for $20! the same author of this tracking system also created a file for ALL the merit badge requirements. It's not perfect, I have found a few errors - but it's great to have handy in the field instead of relying on my memory for a badge requirement.

As a former seamstress (don't have time for it anymore!) the manufacture of alot of slothing is shoddier than it used to be. Especially the skimpiness of seams and the lack of finishing. I have had pants of my sons where either the seams came undone, or the fabric just frayed right down to the seam itself - and then there's no fabric LEFT to sew back together! And he usually outgrows his clothes in height, long before he wears them out or strains seams! the type of fabrics used in scout clothes IS pretty tough. I have to admire the wear those uniforms get at summer camp and how they aren't in tatters by the end of the week - especially the shirts! the pant faric is pretty tough - but if a seam is exposed or pulled - they do ravel pretty easily. I, too, get a kick out of the old photos of scouts in action - esp those in the campaign hats and uniforms prior to WWII. But you have to remember when you see these, that permapress fabrics were not available then, and those photos were often taken of groups in action, on outings and USING their uniforms hard! (and if you think THEY look bad - take a look sometime of some of the old GIRL SCOUT uniforms of the time ! LOL!)

I do sew - so the length doesn't bother me - plus, my son seems to grow up, and up, and up! ALL his other pants are "high water pants" LONG before he outgrows them around the middle! Our troop doesn't require official BSA pants - but he does have one pair for dress. Many of our boys wear jeans, or more popular with them - are the zip-off leg pants in an olive green scout color. I'd love to see BSA adopt these for uniform use - they are SO PRACTICAL for scouts! (no need for long AND short pants in packing!) Our troop has a uniform bank - we all toss outgrown uniform pieces in, and if a boy needs something, for permanent or for changes for camp, he can take anything he needs. The only problem is, Larger sizes usually aren't available for obvious reasons. When hemming, don't be afraid to cut! Those thick hems are not only bulky and look weird - if they get wet they are darn uncomfortable! and if he has to do laundry at camp, they take FOREVER to dry! hints on hemming - take a pair of pants he likes and are the right length for him NOW. Measure the inseam (from crotch of pant to inside hem along the inside leg seam) lets say this measurement is 30". Add 2-3" for hem. (you can add more - but the deeper the hem the harder it is to get a straight hem, and most boys won't grow more than that before they're also bigger around the middle) If the legs of the pants flare or narrow, you need less hem - but scout pants are pretty straight. Transfer this measurement (say - 32") to the scout pants inseam - and mark it with a pin. Now come the tricky part - measure from the BOTTOM of the current hem to the pin - and continue marking around the leg hem this measurement. mark with a pen(or soap, chalk) - this will be your cut line and will never show anyway. once you've marked it, CUT the extra off - you may want to zig-zag the edge on the sewing machine to keep it from fraying. Turn up your hem the extra you added for future growth (2" in our example) IRON IT to make a crease at the hemline and sew. The hem should then be your 30" inseam.

I checked out the OA site - very interesting & informative, but many things were locked away from non-OA members by password. OK - so letrs say I'm interested in OA as an Adult - my troop and I have met the other requirements and my committee elects me next spring as an adult candidate. So what's next? what does an OA "ordeal" involve? All I know is what I've seen the boys do at camp - they spend the night alone and work for 24 hours in silence. The work is usually strenuous and the meals sparse. Is this the same for adults? or different? I'm sure at 60 lbs over weight with a bad back, I'm not up to building any rock walls, or heavy lifting - but there is alot I can do.

You mentioned details about how a youth becomes eligable and can join OA, but what about adults? I have seen adult members who were "tapped out" at camp - is their process and ordeal the same as for the boys? I'm thinking that as my son gets older and does more outings that won't include Mom (backpacking trips and stuff I can't /won't do, and him getting older and more independant)OA might be a way for me to still be involved. Either that or volunteer on the District level. But I'm more camping oriented than paperwork/organization oriented, if you get my meaning - staffing camporees and klondikes would be right up my alley! So how does an adult get involved in OA? and what is involved for the adults once they are there?

in our area, we have quite a few packs and the boys will choose different troops to go into. Some packs / troops have the same charter organizations - but there really is alot of movement between them - I don't think I've seen any group of webelos from a pack ALL go into the same troop. most packs do what KC's do - present Arrow of Light, then do graduation, then crossover. Of course, if you have ALOT of boys, this could take a long time. When a Webelo chooses a troop, that troop is notified of the date and time of the packs' crossover and the troop sends adult and/or boy representatives to welcome him into the troop. The Webelos are most impressed by having a Scout or two in full uniform & sash there FOR THEM, to welcome them. The webelos are almost always presented with their new troop numbers and insignia - some troops give them a troop t-shirt, book, neckerchief or slide - something representative of or individual to their new troop.

"And what if some of the committee members insisted that there was no safety issue and would not budge." to refresh your memory - I posted earlier that our troop had planned a caving trip, a small group of older boys wanted to backpack that weekend instead and the troop committee tossed out the PLC's plans and "decided" to make the backpacking trip for the whole troop. The odd thing is, I AM on the committee - the activities coordinator, in fact - and I dont EVER remember any discussion or voting to change the Caving trip to a backpacking trip - some very strongminded Committee people and the CC decided without consulting the ones they knew would oppose it. (like me and the Acting SM - we obviously have ALOT of ADULT problems in our troop) then those same adults took over the trip - the men all got in a back room with a topographical map and excitedly discussed where and how to get there, routes and distances and how far they could go in a day - they were like kids with a new toy. they didn't even bring in the 2 Sr boys who originally came up with the idea. ok, so what happened? the boys "voted" with their feet. not ONE signed up for the trip! YEAH for our boys!!!!! i guess some grownups have to learn the hard way. In your scenario of the committe approving a yellowstone trip in winter where the boys aren't prepared and the trip has dangers for younger boys, etc - I would think that the outcome would be similar to what happened with our backpacking trip. Our troop had done a backpacking trip (for 1st class and above) last year where it unexpectedly rained and snowed, and the younger boys who went were not conditioned, packed wrong and came home very cold, sore, wet and miserable. the boys themselves realized that they were not prepared or conditioned for such a trip and therefore it would not be any "fun". While none of them would say so in so many words, it was obvious when none of them would sign up or even say verbally to anyone that they WANTED to go. The trip was cancelled. In your Yellowstone scenario, and ours, if the boys don't realize what they are getting into - I'm sure at least SOME parents would object. the saddest thing is, with the dissention between the adults in our troop - there was not time to go back to the caving trip or plan another trip. NOBODY got ANYTHING they wanted. it was a lose / lose situation caused by Adults. some swift thinking boys in my son's patrol asked if they could do a patrol outing and did a lock-in in the church. They worked on advancements for a few hours, ordered Pizza, stayed up until 2 AM and had a great time. Yaworski gave me a quote I find appropriate for all these adult "control" issues in scouting. I remind myself of it everytime I or anyone else wants to take over for the boys... "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." -Daniel Webster

I can't find the requirements online to check the merit badge - But I know we used my digital camera for alot of the badge when i worked with my son and two others who worked on it this summer.... I seem to think that for some of the requirements, the KIND of camera was not specified - so for things like illustrating lighting and perspective, the boys used my digital camera and had a ball with it. they also used regular 35 mm SLRs, and the local community college offered a short B&W course (adult summer ed) that they signed up for to get the darkroom / development info and time. When they were done, even with the 35mm photos - they scanned them in to the computer and each made a power point presentation to "show" & explain their photos. The digital cameras ARE great, and I use mine alot - but their cost is still prohibitive to a boy using one - unless its a cheaper point and shoot type. Only the more expensive ones have controls for aperature and speed. For alot of people, you can't really understand those unless you get the chance to play with them. For the badge, adding some digital requirements would be good, but I think it still serves to learn about the "old fashioned" way! or maybe3 a separate badge for "digital" photography?

I prefer fundraisers where you don't have to "sell" any product, or where the product sells itself to the general public. Every time I turn around theres some kid at the door that i don't know, trying to sell me candles, wrapping paper, cheese, candy, nuts, magazines, etc for school, scouts, church, daycare ad nauseum.... and the ones who sell all this stuff and get the big fundraising bucks either go door to door (which the handouts say they are not supposed to do - not safe in this day and age) or, more likely, they come from a big extended family or mom and dad work for big companies with offices they can get to buy stuff for their kids. OK - so explain to me how MOM and DAD taking the popcorn order form to THEIR OFFICE is teaching Jr. to "earn his own way" ???? I am a single Mom who works full time. The majority of my neighbors are not home, either and over half are non-english-speaking. So who is my son supposed to sell to? Grandma, Mom and Uncle Joe? guess HE's not going to camp under his own steam!! Nope. I'd rather do something that doesn't involve hitting up my co - workers again, or Grandma buying expensive popcorn for the food pantry ( she can't eat it!) One thing I have found is recycling Cartridges. I work for a Title company - we go thru TONS of printed material. I collect the lazer toner cartridges and ship them off for recycling, UPS picks up at my office twice a day anyway, and our troop gets $2 to $15 each for them. I ship a box of 10 - 15 xcartridges at a time - about once a month. minimum - that's $30 a month to our troop. If we can get a few more companies of parents to do this, we could have a regular cash flow! With hardly any effort! there are a number of places on the web that offer this. look up "cash for kids" and "cartridge recycling"

"Open in case of broken meeting." i like that! ok - here's some - A book of skits - they don't have to use these, but it's amazing how they will twist them - you can find hundreds here on "Scouter" site - a box of any weird props for skits or run-ons Skill competitions - write 'em out and put them in the box - or you won't be able to think of them when you need them - Putting up a tent race - between patrols - handicap the older boys by adding blindfolded members that have to work under direction of seeing members. not only will it "even the field" but its hilarious and will motivate the younger ones to get to that level! various relay races - tying knots, putting up a tent on piece at a time, teamwork ones, teach a song - 1 silly and one serious here's one to motivate them to plan - make them inventory your equipment! (just kidding) work on advancements, who needs hatchet? who needs lighting stoves? (providing your equipment is handy) Any first aid is good - keep basic bandages/splints on hand Unifornm inspection! go for a star hike (winter nights are cold but clear!) get out the compasses! map out a hike to take later in your town. (our boys are creating a map for the 5 mile/compass 2nd class requirements with "test answers" at each point - that way, later, any scout needing that requirement can pick up the directives, follow the map coordinates thru town and get the requirement, without having to wait for a troop activity that suits the requirements.) Do an improptu service project - pick up trash, etc. For plan ahead meetings - Do a cooking "round robin" have each patrol cook something new - a new food, a new way, etc. then everybody gets to go around and taste. do team building excercises & games - we had one at a camporee were they had to stack milk crates as high as they could in one tower - outside on a breezy day! it's not as easy as it sounds! another where they had the whole patrol on a board about 10'long and logs under it and sticks to push (like paddling) with. they had to keep passing the back log forward to put under the front in order to move without 'sinking" _____ yes the BOYS are supposed to plan the program. But if they can't or get stuck - the adults have to guide them by being prepared to "prime the pump" with motivation and ideas. make these ideas available to the boys - they will embellish and add to them. We are re-building our troop - our boy were never boy -lead before, and they WANT to do it, but haven't been taught how - even the older ones. It's so easy to fall back on the adults to bail them out. Don't let them. hand them the book / box of ideas and back off a little - tell them "you're bored? ok - heres some ideas to get you started - what are you gonne do?" Good luck!

Oh boy does THAT sound like fun! I know our boys would LOVE to sleep in an igloo! But getting back to these sleeping bags.... my son and I have used our new "Black pine" bags a couple of times last winter, but haven't gotten them out yet this season. However, this summer we broke the zipper on one of our old summer bags (it was probably 20 yrs old) and it was cheaper to buy a new regular bag than to replace the zipper! So I was out bag shopping again! For us "healthy sized" people - be aware that the standard bag is 33" to 35" wide (laid flat). That's alot for a boy - not much for me! I'm sure some of the men have a similar problem - you feel "bound up" in those bags. You can't roll over inside them - you have to roll over WITH the bag around you - and then you feel even more constricted. For about $20 I found a 40" wide, extra long bag at Sportmart. The Extra width is well worth it. The outside is cheap nylon, and the inside is cheap, rough flannel. but for summertime campouts (not back packing) it's fine, because I ALWAYS use liners, anyway. Take a double-bed sized flat sheet, fold it in half lengthwise, and sew across the bottom and halfway up the side. This gives you a "bag-in-a-bag" with almost no weight or space. - If you get debris in your bag, you can pull out the liner and shake it out easier than shaking the whole bag. -if you get sweaty at night, you can pull out that layer the next day and dry layers faster than drying the whole bag. -If it's hot, you can use the sheet alone. -on a hot night, a cool sheet feels so much better than flannel or nylon! - the long length of the top of the sheet can be tucked under your pillow or mat to pin them down so they don't "scoot" from under you. -if you sleep under the stars you can put the extra length of sheet over your head to keep mosquitoes off -the sheet is light enough to breathe -and doesn't retain as much moisture as putting your head IN the bag itself on slightly cool nights Mostly - it keeps your bag Cleaner, so you have to wash it less, and makes it last longer and stay warmer! I DO have and use the fleece blanket liners as well - but the pre-made ones are also only 30" to 33" wide ( flat). Thats AWFULLY narrow, even for a skinny adult! and to make them - well, the long zippers are really expensive - more than to just buy the bags! You could zip two together - but you'd have alot of extra fabric inside your bag. Since I sew, I took one of ours and split it on the fold, and inserted a V of the same fabric - so my liner is now kind of "mummy bag" shaped - narrow at the feet and wide at the shoulder - I also added a 12" strip around the top to "fold over" the top of the bag or to line the hood of my winter bag.

WOW! so many boys! Aren't you lucky! ok - how about this - don't plan a "troop" meeting. plan the night for "patrol" meetings instead. wasn't it BP's idea that "the patrols gather to form a troop, the troop doesn't divide into patrols?" I may have misquoted, but the idea is the same. Break them down into manageable parts, forget trying to do anything but summer camp and camporees and big stuff as a whole troop. operate your patrols as a "troop within a troop", give each boy ownership of his patrol and he'll be interested enough to stay active. You're never going to find anything that will satisfy 30 -50 boys ranging in age from 11 to 18 all at once. It just isn't possible. how many patrols do you have, and how many from each patrol turn up regularly? Do you have an ASM assigned to each patrol to "guide" them? this ASM can help them pull out ideas, and plan and find the interests of paticular boys - until they learn to do it themselves - like you did. you could: have 1 -3 patrols plan stations for each night that the other patrols visit to learn skills, etc. the patrols should be planning their own outings / campouts - either as 1 patrol, or as a couple of patrols with similar interests. The only badgework you should work on is an ongoing, troopwide badge - like biking - a bike inspection and repair night? Badge workshops (per se) should not be done at meetings (there's another thread on that) but may be one patrol wants to work on it and can have that as their contribution to the meeting. somewhere down the line there is a good thread on getting kids to brainstorm for new ideas (to get rid of that "i dunno") Compitition is a great motivator - have them enter and compete on those knot boards!

our troop has enough Timberlines for boys AND adults, although a few are out for repair right now and if everyone in the troop went on a trip AND the adults wanted to use troop tents, we might be tight.... Our boys always use troop tents, but the adults mostly prefer to bring their own tents - and mostly so they can stand up, too. Plus, to preserve our tents, our troop has a rule - no packs in the tents. With frame packs this makes sense - but it is rather inconvenient. So I bring my own tent - one I can stand up in and put my stuff in. One thing about using private tents - this past summer, the mosquitoes around here were absolutely unbearable. No amount of sprays, etc kept them at bay. the troop owns and uses a BIG canvas dining fly, but one parent sent a screen tent along to summer camp. The boy and his best friend started to set it up, and made some kind of comment about "this is the "first class" hangout" (we only had 5 boys at this campout - they were the only two 1st class) I heard that and put them straight - that the tent would be shared by ALL the troop, not just them, or it would go back on the bus. Well, they DID agree, but it was obvious that something was going on, because the other boys didn't use it and only the two boys were ever in it. So I moved the comfy chairs in there, the advancement box & the drink coolers, and I started sitting in there myself, and kept calling the boys over to go over records, or check progress, etc. Eventually, they would sit together and play cards & share snacks. This same boy comes from a well-to-do family and has lots of good equipment - but we've had to make a troop rule of no private equipment unless cleared by the SM - because he has pulled this stunt many times. Like not letting his younger patrol members cook or light the stove - because it's HIS MSR stove and they might hurt it? They're the ones that NEED to cook! But the point is, SOME kids will play the "this is mine, therefore I determine who plays" when they bring thier own stuff, even if they KNOW and agree to share in front of the adults.

I can't quote book and page - Where's Bob White when I need him? LOL! but i do know that it's a National level BSA rule/guideline that Webelos cannot PARTICIPATE in a Boy Scout camporee or Klondike.... I think the reason given was that the skill levels, hardship of a winter event / camping etc and less parental involvement are beyond the limits for Cubs. Your council may get around the rule legally if they set up a simultanious Klondike FOR the cubs at the same time and location. Then the cubs are not competing with or against Scouts, and not doing scout level skills. But if that's what they do - then they are still attending a CUB function - the idea (under the Arrow of Light requirements) is for them to participate in a SCOUT event With a troop - the intention is for them to get an impression of being a Boy Scout vs Cubs. So if they go to Klondike and compete with other cubs, and then sit around and watch the Boy Scouts, but don't interact with them much - what do the Webelos get out of it & how does that meet the Arrow of Light requirement?

I think that's only part of the problem - that there's just such a BIG jump between Cubs and Boy Scouting - in that area - Girl scouts does a better job by having groups that go up by age/grade ranges, and the changes are more gradual. BSA could either make Webelos more like Boy Scouts, or make a separate group for the 6th & 7th graders (under 1st class) there is also a HUGE difference between badge and advancement requirements - Cub advancements, even at webelos level are SO easy, and BSA keeps revising the Merit Badges and making them longer and much more complicated. It's great to have so much variety in subject, but there needs to be more middle ground between Basketry and the 3-4 pages of requirements for Swimming! But the biggest thing is the lack of involvement betweent the programs. In our area, the only involvement is the ONE meeting and ONE activity required for Arrow of Light. And making that ONE activity happen is difficult, because the rules for Webelos are more restrictive than the Rules for Scouts - you can't just invite them along on ANY troop activity, you have to create a special one to invite them to. If the boys worked with the webelos on a regular basis, then they would have friends or older scouts they knew & liked already in the troop, and would want to move up. The timing also stinks. 6th grade is a time that is rough on most boys - going into Jr high, dealing with multiple teachers, a new school, new kids and different and harder homework requirements - Sometimes the culture shock of the tougher Scouting Program is like going to school all over again - and with so many demands on them at that time - scouting looses out. I don't know - what if they moved Webelos up at the beginning of 5th grade? then they'd still have their familiar schools/ classmates, and scouting would be new - by the time they got to 6th grade Scouting would be familiar and a "safe haven" while dealing with the newness of Jr high? But the program would still need to address the vast difference in requirements between the two - The responsibility level and everything is just a big adjustment for everyone. the other problem is boys who don't even attempt Scouting after cubs. I had a few in my den that just DID NOT want to go further - even some who did the visits required to get their Arrow of Light, but that said flat out that they were NOT going to be in any troop. To those boys, usually the parental involvment is not there anyway, scouting appears too "uncool", or they don't really like the out-of-doors - BSA is really heavy into camping and physical activity - and not organized sports - which also draws these boys away. I think all youth organizations have a problem with losing kids at that age - but i do think BSA could have better retention than it does!

Since you can't come visit OUR troop (we would welcome you with open arms at ANY time!) I would have a frank talk with the powers that be - be it your commissioner or the troop scoutmaster or committee chair, or all three! It sound like this troop, being the ONLY troop in your area, is EXPECTING all your boys to join them and not making any attempt to service the boys needs. Even if recruiting is easy - it still needs to service the boys first! Getting their Arrow of Light is important, and a boy shouldn't miss out because of missing ONE meeting or activity. However, we ran into a similar problem with Webelos when my son was in 5th grade - our district also allowed Webelos to attend Klondike for the day, and EVERYBODY depended on that to meet the Arrow of light requirement for participating in a BOY SCOUT activity. But you know what? NATIONAL BSA rules say that cubs can't attend Klondikes and our district, after years of doing it anyway, decided not to allow Webelos at Klondike, and there we were - stuck without a backup plan! Now, as a BSA troop - our meetings are ALWAYs open to visitors, tho we may warn parents and boys that some of them are not as interesting as others. We do have special meetings periodically specifically for Webelos and parents, too. We compete with other troops for new webelos, and we do NOT have a pack associated with our troop, so we have to work at getting boys to visit and join. We also realize that one activity a year is not enough, like you said, not everyone can make it on a particular day. But the rules for cub scouts at an activity are very different than the rules for a boy scout activity (exactly why Klondikes are off limits) so cubs can't just attend ANY boy Scout activity. We started a new program this year to do an activity each quarter, geared to the cub scouting rules and invite dens to participate, not just watch. Your district needs to know that the troop that services your town is NOT giving the cubs enough opportunity to meet requirements for Arrow of Light and advancement into Boy Scouts. If they want scouting to continue in your area, they WILL do something about it. Talk to them !

Cool! Where would you find this application? do you have a link or is it just part of the newest version of troopmaster? I'm not sure what software we use in our troop - but I know we recently got an upgrade... gotta check it out

I LOVE technology. I love electronic toys (both the kid kind and the grownup kind) and would not want to be without my cell phone, Palm pilot, home computer, internet, fax machine, answering machine - how far should I take this? can I include my new dishwasher? ;-) All the modern conviences and inventions are terrific. they are also a great way to reach the boys - as bombarded as they are with electronics - you CAN NOT escape the impact they have in their lives. Yes, there are problems - our kids expect instant rewards, instant gratification - and that can be a problem. But if you just say "no" to all electronics without an understanding of their importance to the boys, their use or value - then you are missing the point of these "tools". yes TOOLS. Would you object to taking a backpacking cookstove on a campout? another tool of modern technology. What about your ultralight, ultra warm sleeping bag? or a flashlight? are you going to have the boys find their way to the latrine at night with the help of a candle or a kerosine lantern? Maybe they did that in Baden Powell's day - and learning about those things has value, too - but I still like flashlights! We have a laptop that belongs to the troop, and of course, we use Scout software for advancement tracking. Our boys have created power point presentations to advertise our troop to prospective members and another for their parents, incorporating photos they and I have taken with my digital camera. How cool is that? Just as we teach the boys to use the appropriate tool in different situations, we also must teach them when it is appropriate to use the tools of technology. Palm pilots are great for taking notes, and for adults to keep track of all their appointments, to -do lists, phone /address lists, documents and photos, etc. though I don't use mine for note - taking at meetings, I do keep everything on it's calendar, and reminder notes. Though I'd love to know if there's an advancement tracking program for palm OS2 - it sure would beat that big 3 ring binder I carried around at camp! I have a free star charting program that we have used on one campout ( tells us where to find a constellation based on a specific date and time) and when my watch died the first night at summer camp last summer, though I had left my palm in the car - it came in handy as an alarm clock! Basically, our troops policy is that if it has a use that enhances the program we are doing - then use it. If it's strictly for entertainment, and especially if it shuts others out, then leave it at home. If you think of them as tools, then it becomes easier to define your troop's take on them.