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Sagerscout Webster's defines religion as "belief in and worship of a God." therefore I am confused by your statements. I don't discount any religion and I beleive that you should have a freedom to believe what you want to beleive. All religions beleive in God, some beleive in more than one. All who profess this are allowed in BSA. Scoutnut, I did not say you had to beleive in the Christian God. I said that I am a Christian. I also said that we welcome ALL faiths. We have to be careful though what some call God. Some may worship the dollar, but that is not God. There is a difference between God and god. The BSA oath uses the word God. Webster's defines the capitalized "God" as "the creator and ruler of the universe in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religions." If you are an athiest, you do not beleive that a supreme being is the creator and the ruler of the universe. BSA does not allow for that. If the GSA does then it has lowered it's standards to satisfy all people. That's called being politically correct. Being politically correct rarely involves raising standards.

Congratulations to growing Long Family I have not seen your picture Mike, but after seeing the beautiful picture of Mother and Daughter, I'm glad Laurel Rose takes after her Mother. I celebrate the 1st birthday of my Grandson Lance today. He's taking his first steps this week. Hopefully toward Eagle! By the way, you don't have to be old to be a Granddad. We thank God for the gift of love you have received. He gave you 40 boys to care for to train you for this change of life.

Ditto Bob White Sounds like the committee is trying to become a legislative body which it is not. The PLC should be the only voting body in the troop and the TC should be a support group and help the scout and scouters understand policies of BSA and the sponsoring organization. Has the committee had training? Doug

Scoutnut I didn't refer to people who believe in God as tainting the organization. As was referring to those who do not beleive. According to BSA oath a scout promises to do his best to do his duty to God, and to join you have to understand and agree to live by that oath. Now, it seems to me that the BSA backs me up in not allowing anyone who does not beleive in God. The GSA as you stated does allow for a substitution for God, whatever that means. I never said we don't accept all faiths, in fact we welcome them. I happen to be a Christian, but we have scouts of different faiths in our troop. Sagerscout You seem to ask a question about a lot of different religions and denominations of one religion. Then you group atheists in with all the rest. Religion is a belief in God. Atheism is not. I prefer not to mix apples and oranges. Atheists cannot according to the Scout Oath become Boy Scouts. Sorry. Lowering that standard in my opinion is not something the BSA wants to do. Nor do they want to lower the standard of not allowing leaders and scouts who don't try to live their life being morally straight. The gay lifestyle does not fit in the category of being morally straight. And their lifestyle is illegal in most states. I prefer not to succomb to political correctness. And yes, my two daughters were Girl Scouts before the change of standards in the GSA and my wife was a leader.

Yarrow and Sagerscout Sounds to me like the GSA lowered it's ideals. Political correctness is what governed the GSA's decision. BSA has no intention of lowering its ideals because some people believe differently. We also acknowledge those who do but prefer to keep them from tainting our organization. I have a hard time understanding your statement about a broader and more personal expression of God. If that allows like Sagerscout said, we can use any word we want, then the GSA has really cowered back. You said that substituting the words "myself" or "satan" might bring on an acceptance problem. According to the new promise, they can sub the word of their choice and you have to accept it. In supporting the right of the parent, Jesus called God, Abba, translated loosely Father, translated more accurately, Daddy. What do you think Daddy would say about this? Doug

Our roundtable belongs to us as Scouters. The DE is there because, 1. He needs to be there. 2. He is our liason as a district to the council. 3. He gets paid to push membership and fundraising. Our Roundtable Chair runs the meeting along with his committee. All the different areas of scouting are addressed by the chair of that committee. To make the district run smooth, everyone has to do the job he volunteered for. Yes, that August roundtable is a big meeting for the DE. Its the only time he can push those things like Popcorn and Roundups. Doug

Ozemu Thamks for all the info. You seem to have a wealth of it. Outdoor Education must be a great job, like scouting all the time. I agree that scouting done well is the best training for useful interaction. I will look up the book "Outdoor Leadership" by Graham. I went to your website and read about "Aussie" and his US tour. How did you determine where he goes? Where in North Carolina will he be? Just curious. Doug

I went to the scoutstuff.com site and the yellow shirt is still available and is not in the discontinued item list. This the first I've heard of a discontinuation.

They said we couldn't bring joints to the roundtable. :-) We have always had separate meetings with an occasional joint meeting ie. August planning meeting where all information on the upcoming year is presented. I agree that the two programs have enough differences that the two should be separate. Doug

Ozemu Thanks for the info. I went to the American Camping Assoc. website to look at the books offered. This one sounded interesting. "Boundaries with Kids" by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. Have you read it? It just seems to me in our school system, that the kids aren't allowed to build their social skills and this leads to frustration of not knowing how to express themselves in a civil manner. I'm not in any way endorsing fighting, but I think that kids would know better how to react in certain situations by the interactions they have had to that point. Combine this lack of social training with the violence that they see on TV, Video Games, News and you can get a Colombine type of event. You are educated in this field, but am I on the right track or totally derailed? Doug

Dan I believe I commented about going into this as a young scout. Our patrol was all guys and I know it doesn't make any difference, but we all were like little kids again and had one of the best experiences that I've had in a long while. Everytime I see one of my patrol members, it's like we are back at Gilwell. Dancing Fox, Did you say five items on the ticket? We had nine! Did the ticket change that much? Doug a good old Bear (Kodiak)

Welcome aboard We (Scoutmaster and myself) took over a troop five years ago, but it was like starting a new troop. All the scouts were young hence no older scouts to be the example. We as leaders had to be a patrol of our on and set the example for the young scouts. Its a long process but worth it. By th eway we still do our own patrol. There's nothing like leading by example. Eventually you begin to see some results and have scout leaders. Make sure all incoming scouters get the training like you and your father have, and if its been a while since you had update training, do it with them. It will help build comraderie. It is also a great time to do Troop Junior Leader Training. Be patient! YIS Doug

Acco40 Bob's right about the prerequisite training for Woodbadge. Whether you attend as a Webelo Leader or an ASM, You will custom design your ticket for your future growth. If you will predominately be involved in Troop functions, it will be harder for you to complete ticket items in a Pack setting. A good ticket item might be to be a liason between Pack and Troop since you are in that transition stage. You stated that you expect to be an ASM for a few more years. I hope that means that after that, you will assume another position such as SM. Since your group is crossing over soon, try to help out with the transition for the parents. You know them pretty well by now and some have trouble with the transition. It is also a good way to recruit adult leaders. Doug maybe you can be a good old Bear too.

Definitely no on the electronics. When we go on our trips we involve the boys in the navigation. The boys have to read the maps and let the driver, (usually an ASM) know where to go. Most of them now can get you anywhere in Western North Carolina. Also, you never know when they will see something educational along the way. Something I would hate for them to miss because the were buried into some electronic game. As far as the CD player goes, much of the music kids listen to probably hasn't been edited by their parent and I don't need the new scouts learning new improper words and spreading it back home. It's real imbarassing when a parent comes to you asking how their son learned a four letter word on the campout. The boys seem to have some pretty interesting discussions they would never have had if they all were using electronics to ignore the others. We made the mistake once to allow CD players to summer camp with the restrictions that they could only use them in their tents. It seems some CDs were stolen. We don't allow them at all now. There are too many other options.

We have had a lot of discussion about the behavior of certain scouts. I mentioned in another thread about the advice of Baden-Powell when he used a quote from an article by a Mr. Casson in Teacher's World Magazine in his book "Aids to Scoutmastership, a guidebook for Scoutmasters on the theory of Scout Training. I wonder if we have created a lot of these problem boys by trying to put them all in the same mold. When my son was in Elementary school, I visited for lunch quite often. The kids had to be quiet in class, on the way to the lunchroom, in the lunchroom, and even in the playground after lunch. I wondered when these boys get to learn social skills when they are being suppressed all the time. According to Mr. Casson, we may be keeping natural leaders from developing. You read the quote and think about it for a while. Let me know what you think. Mr. Casson, writing in the magazine Teachers' World, thus describes that complicated work of Nature the boy:- "Judging from my own experience, I would say that boys have a world of their own-a world that they make for them- selves; and neither the teacher nor the lessons are admitted to this world. A boy's world has its own events and standards and code and gossip and public opinion. "In spite of teachers and parents, boys remain loyal to their own world. They obey their own code, although it is quite a different code to the one that is taught to them at home and in the schoolroom. They gladly suffer martyrdom at the hands of uncomprehending adults, rather than be false to their own code. "The code of the teacher, for instance, is in favour of silence and safety and decorum. The code of the boys is diamet- rically opposite. It is in favour of noise and risk and excite- ment. "Fun, fighting, and feeding! These are the three indis- pensable elements of the boy's world. These are basic. They are what boys are in earnest about; and they are not associated with teachers nor schoolbooks. "According to public opinion in Boydom, to sit for four hours a day at a desk indoors is a wretched waste of time and daylight. Did anyone ever know a boy-a normal healthy boy, who begged his father to buy him a desk? Or did anyone ever know a boy, who was running about outdoors, go and plead with his mother to be allowed to sit down in the drawing room? "Certainly not. A boy is not a desk animal. He is not a sitting-down animal. Neither is he a pacifist nor a believer in safety first,' nor a book-worm, nor a philosopher. "He is a boy-God bless him-full to the brim of fun and fight and hunger and daring mischief and noise and observation and excitement. If he is not, he is abnormal. "Let the battle go on between the code of the teachers and the code of the boys. The boys will win in the future as they have in the past. A few will surrender and win the scholar- ships, but the vast majority will persist in rebellion and grow up to be the ablest and noblest men in the nation. "Is it not true, as a matter of history, that Edison, the inventor of a thousand patents, was sent home by his school teacher with a note saying he was 'too stupid to be taught'? "Is it not true that both Newton and Darwin, founders of the scientific method, were both regarded as blockheads by their school teachers? "Are there not hundreds of such instances, in which the duffer of the classroom became useful and eminent in later life? And doesn't this prove that our present methods fail in develop- ing the aptitudes of boys? "Is it not possible to treat boys as boys? Can we not requirements of the boy's world? Can we not interpret our adult wisdom into the language of boyhood? "Is not the boy right, after all, in maintaining his own code of justice and achievement and adventure? "Is he not putting action before learning, as he ought to do? Is he not really an amazing little worker, doing things on his own, for lack of intelligent leadership? "Would it not be vastly more to the point if the teachers were, for a time, to become the students and to study the marvel- ous boy-life which they are at present trying vainly to curb and repress? "Why push against the stream, when the stream, after all, is running in the right direction? "Is it not time for us to adapt our futile methods and to bring them into harmony with the facts? Why should we persist in saying dolefully, 'boys will be boys,' instead of rejoicing in the marvelous energy and courage and initiative of boyhood? And what task can be nobler and more congenial to a true teacher than to guide the wild forces of boy nature cheerily along into paths of social service?" Doug

In the B-P book "Aids to Scoutmastership" he quotes a Mr. Casson from Teacher's World magazine. The quote talks about the boy being a complicated work of nature. It was written in the early 1900's but it went a long way in helping me understand why the boys today have some problems. We have been trying fit every boy into the same mold when the nature of boy's behavior is the way in which leadership is born. I think that the quote is too long to paste into this post but I would be willing to open another post for that purpose. Look for it under the subject "Aids to Scoutmastership" B-P

From one Bear to another I believe that B-P was a christian, mainly because of this quote.No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion....Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour. - (Baden-Powell, Scouting For Boys, 1908) As you know these are the two commandments that Jesus gave when asked which ones were the greatest. I think that B-P quoted from a lot of different sources because he wanted the program to attract any boy as long as he beleived in a Creator. He was obviously a wise man. Of course we all know that B-P was a good ole bear too. That's what BP stands for, Bear Patrol from a good ole bear too

OGE Sorry for this late posting and I assume your training will start in the spring. I was fortunate enough to be in the last traditional Woodbadge course in our council. I hope the traditions carry on in the new one. Go into this training with an open mind. Things will be explained when you get there. BubbaBear was right. Maybe you want have to be an eagle much longer. Kodiak Bears are at the top of the food chain! If you go into this like you were a boy again, you will get more out of it and will have a great time. Bears Rule! Does anyone know if Bob White is a Bob White or is that his name?

I went through all the training when in Cubs. Since moving to Boy Scouts, completed all the basic courses and did Woodbadge 2001. Just finished working my ticket. (Bears are the top of the food chain). Worked last year on staff of the new outdoor leader skills training. I agree, the best way to stay current is to teach it.

I may be wrong since its been a few years since I was in the cubs, but I believe the Pack Committee Chairman's signiture is needed and not the Cubmaster. Take a look at the little progress record booklet. I don't think it matters how long it has been since he qualified, as long as he is still a scout leader. The chairman is responsible for getting it to the district leadership training committee.

Definitely go with a mutifuel stove if your going to be in lower temps and higher altitude. Propane is not good in those conditions. The MSR stoves are good but prone to tipping. My choice is the Optimus Nova. It was rated best last year and has excellent stability with the turbine shaped base fins. It is also multi-fuel, so it doesn't matter where you go, you can find something to burn in it. It is a little more expensive than the MSR's but probably worth it considering the stability. This one will last him a lifetime unless we run out of fossil fuels. It is advisable to go to an outdoor store and compare them. I also don't see a reason for every boy to carry a stove. One stove per patrol and let someone else carry the extra fuel bottle(s). Be sure to read the lighting instructions because they are not as simple as a propane stove. The Scout catalog carries the Coleman Exponent 442 Dual Fuel and Multifuel. Both have the integrated fuel tank. I personally prefer the separate fuel bottle. Hope this Helps.

I can see me now walking into roundtable with that:)

Thanks Bob White I also picked up the "My Scout Advancement Trail, Tenderfoot to First Class" today. It lists every subject and the requirements under them. This I think will be a good source for planning with the troop guide. An idea came up last night at the committee meeting. We have a good group of older boys and are looking at about the same number of new scouts when it comes time for cross-over. One of the leaders had the idea of, even though the new scouts are in a patrol together, hook up an older scout with a new one. We beleive the older scouts will enjoy the challenge, create maybe some competition being careful not hurt any feelings, and will help insure attendance from the older and younger scout. Both would know the other would be counting on them to be there. I think it will also bridge the gap a little between them. All the older scouts will improve their teaching skills. Well, it's only for 3-6 months anyway. Has anyone tried this? Let me know how it worked out.

Supermom I know you meant bleachers, but I got a kick out of the belchers at the little league field. I think it would be a great service project for someone who knows more about computers than I do to let us know why you get double posted. I know you tried.