Kudu

Yeah, I'd fight to the death over diluting Scoutcraft with "life skills," and removing "the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." But we did that already, of course.

Yes, if you offer backpacking, climbing, scuba, canoe trips, shotgun, on a regular basis, word will get around, and high adventure parents, district/community/friends of friends will volunteer for those trips. These are adults who want NO part of typical BSA monthly campouts. As for regular recruiting: Consider a Facebook, YouTube, and Web presence: We get a slow but steady stream of Scouts who transfer to us from standard Troops. I plan to add Google+ soon. Also, we make sure that Scouts earning the 1st Class "tell a friend or lapsed Scout about Scouting" requirement, to bring their friend to a cool campout (they do NOT have to register). Figure another 10% per year there. And, of course, anyone with access to a public or private school can bring in an extra twelve (12) to twenty registered Scouts per year using my 6th Grade Recruiting Presentation: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net Me neither here in Florida.

Parents are overrated. What do you need them for, other than driving? Most parents are happy to do that a couple times a year. Baden-Powell's version of Scouting requires neither parents nor an SPL. The Patrol Leaders run the Troop. But these are serious leaders.

Yes, if you offer backpacking, climbing, scuba, canoe trips, shotgun, on a regular basis, word will get around, and high adventure parents, district/community/friends of friends will volunteer for those trips. These are adults who want NO part of typical BSA monthly campouts. As for regular recruiting: Consider a Facebook, YouTube, and Web presence: We get a slow but steady stream of Scouts who transfer to us from standard Troops. I plan to add Google+ soon. Also, we make sure that Scouts earning the 1st Class "tell a friend or lapsed Scout about Scouting" requirement, to bring their friend to a cool campout (they do NOT have to register). Figure another 10% per year there. And, of course, anyone with access to a public or private school can bring in an extra twelve (12) to twenty registered Scouts per year using my 6th Grade Recruiting Presentation: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

"The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies: 1) The ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, 2) To train them in Scoutcraft, and 3) To teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." 　

[h=1]Boy Scouts threaten to sue Oakland-based nonprofit for using 'scouts' in name[/h] By Paul T. Rosynsky Oakland Tribune Posted: 08/23/2013 05:55:41 AM PDT | Updated: about 11 hours ago OAKLAND -- Youth groups beware: Don't use "scouts" in your name unless you want a fight from one of the largest youth organizations in the country. Oakland-based nonprofit Hacker Scouts, a group that fosters science, engineering and technology learning, is learning that lesson. Less than a year after the youth organization was formed, the Boy Scouts of America sent a letter demanding the removal of "scouts" from their name and threatening a lawsuit if Hacker Scouts refused to honor the request. The Boy Scouts of America says it's simply trying to "protect its intellectual property and brand." Hacker Scouts representatives say they're being bullied. "Scouting has been around a lot longer than the boy scouts," said Samantha Cook, founder and executive director of Hacker Scouts. "It seems ridiculous that they can own that word." http://tinyurl.com/kejr9d2

Welcome back! "Kudu is as bad as Merlyn Leroy, only worse!" Beavah

　 A NOTE TO YOUNG READERS: So you Googled "Baden-Powell" and "Scouting Heritage Merit Badge" and found this thread? Here is a checklist you can use to compare Baden-Powell's "Patrol System," to your Troop's "Patrol Method." 　 When camping as a Troop, how far apart do you camp your Patrols? a) 300 feet (Patrol System) b) 5-20 feet (Patrol Method) 　 From whom did you learn your Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class skills? a) My Patrol Leader, of course (Patrol System) b) Troop Guide, Troop Instructors, and strangers at summer camp (Patrol Method) 　 　 Who officially confirmed you as a Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class Scout? a) My Patrol Leader on a Patrol Hike (Patrol System) b) Mommies and daddies at a Board of Review (Patrol Method) What is a Troop committee? a) Patrol Leaders, of course. There is no adult committee (Patrol System) b) Parents (Patrol Method) 　 　 Who controls the Troop's money? a) The Patrol Leaders, of course (Patrol System) b) Some adult (Patrol Method) 　 　 How long have you had the same Patrol Leader? a) As long as I have been in Scouts, but he's our best woodsman (Patrol System) b) We vote for a new one every six (6) months (Patrol Method) 　 　 What is the purpose of your Patrol? a) To explore the woods by ourselves (Patrol System) b) To learn "leadership skills" next to other Patrols (Patrol Method) 　 Which do you think is actually boy-run, the Patrol System or the Patrol Method? a) Baden-Powell's Patrol System, of course b) My Scouting Heritage Merit Badge Counselor says there is no difference! (Patrol Method)

I'm just posting what I learned from Tim Jeal's biography of Baden-Powell. I had hoped to Google up some of my own posts from 15 years ago, in which I also give examples of Baden-Powell "borrowing" the badge system and other program elements (including some Birch Bark games) from Seton's program. As for my "B-P-Blindness," only my legendary modesty prevents me from pointing out that I was the first person in the world to provide Seton's (and Beard's) entire pre-Scouting handbook on the Internet. In the years before Google Books and the rise of the Gutenberg Project, my Boy Scout Website was the only such digital reference anywhere, including the links on Wikipedia and the Seton Institute itself. http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/index.htm http://inquiry.net/traditional/beard/pioneers/index.htm B-P's military patrols, however, (and his military scout games like Capture the Flag, Spider & Fly, etc.) predate Seton. Real Patrols are the reason that Scouting became overwhelmingly popular with boys. Their absence now is why most American boys hate Scouting as much as they would hate sports if we removed the physical distance elements of any game and replaced them with "leadership skills." http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/b-p/aids2scouting/a2s_167.htm

Is this it?

To be fair, I wrote that nothing changes the culture of a Troop FASTER than physical distance between the Patrols! Within minutes of pitching tents in remote hideouts, the need for strong Patrol Leaders becomes obvious to Scouts and adults alike. This remarkable instant change in Troop culture is also true for Patrol backpacking as little as a quarter-mile from the Troop trailer. I agree with TwoCubDad that cooking a meal is the essence of a patrol, and the time it takes to become the established Troop culture is worth it. The downside of placing it before physical distance, is that when guys set their minds on a cooking priority, then heavy-duty Patrol Boxes, propane tank trees, and a car port dining area close to the Troop trailer is not far behind. When physical distance comes first, the beauty of Lightweight Patrol Cooking is obvious: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm

Add Bearclaw's suggestion #3 to my collection of physical distance suggestions for this thread! It is easier for adults in transition to picture Boy Scout Patrols designing Patrol Flags, selecting menus for a campout, assigning a duty roster, and participating in inter-patrol competitions. These can all be done under "controlled failure" supervision. Patrols camped far apart and backpacking without two-deep helicopters can be more difficult to imagine. LHScoutmaster, is Baden-Powell's 300 foot minimum standard for the Patrol System of any practical value to you, or is it just words? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

(The lack thereof)

Adult voices.

Scouter99 commented Scott is quoting the rabidly anti-Baden-Powell leftist Michael Rosenthal. I had marked the facing page because it was the first time I had ever seen David Scott agree with Tim Jeal. Ever :-/ However, Jeal does not agree with Rosenthal: "Seton's most serious accusations should not be taken seriously, nor should Michael Rosenthal's recent argument that Baden-Powell found in the structure of the Woodcraft Indians 'an organizational model that provided solutions for almost every problem he faced'." There were indeed similarities between Seton's Indian 'bands' and Baden-Powell's Boy Scout 'patrols'. Both were placed under a boy leader who was himself under the more distant authority of an adult, but there were many other precedents which Baden-Powell could just as well have chosen to follow. When the True Blue War Library was running its Boy Scout stories, the newspaper inaugurated a boys' society called 'The True and Trusty Band'. Members swore to obey various laws, and joined groups of from six to eight under a boy captain. There were secret signs, and badges to be won. "In the 5th Dragoon Guards and in the S. A.C., Baden-Powell had trained men in groups of six under an N. C.O. rather than an officer, and had long been an admirer of the public school system of supervision by senior boys. Seton's bands were considered viable at anything between 15 and 50 boys; Baden-Powell therefore followed his own precedents in determining the number for each Scout patrol. The name itself came from his own book Cavalry Instruction (1887), in which he had called all small scouting groups 'patrols'. Nor is Rosenthal correct in thinking that Baden-Powell derived his idea for First- and Second-Class Scouts from Seton's division of his Indians into Braves and Warriors. Scouts in the 5th Dragoon Guards had been divided by ability and knowledge into 'First and Second Class' [Jeal, The Boy-Man, page 380]. I will try to respond to more of your quoted passages, as best as this poor sufferer of "BP Blindness" is able. :-/

I quoted Scott: Scouter99 commented: Um, yes that is an "issue" for me. The central issue. You see Seton presiding over the Silver Bay campfire, and Baden-Powell doing the same thing at Brownsea. I see Seton forming Patrols of six boys led by ADULT Patrol Leaders, and Baden-Powell's Patrols spread around Brownsea island without adult supervision. THE BSA UNDER CHIEF SCOUT SETON:

Just a quick note: I don't remember Scott asserting that B-P stole the Patrol System from Seton. I'd be happy to look at any such specific passages you may have in mind. What Seton and Beard introduced to Scouting was the use of word games to pretend that the Patrol System (and Scouting in general) is anything you say it is, as long as you use words such as "Patrol" or "Scoutcraft" (the BSA now uses both terms to mean EDGE theory, for instance). Such word games appeal to our modern use of the term "Patrol Method" to mean little "controlled failure" leadership skills laboratories cramped into small established campsites under the close supervision of two-deep helicopters. The comparison of Seton's division of Woodcraft Tribes into Bands is an analogy to Troops and Patrols, not a true comparison. For instance, take Scott's description of Seton's Silver Bay encampment: "At Silver Bay, groups of six boys, each led by an adult, raised shelters, cooked meals, and met each evening around campfires hosted by Seton" (page 111). That description of an adult-led Band is not far from what would soon become the YMCA's Patrol leadership theory in the BSA: "The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master "Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan" See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm And for Seton's Tribe and Band structure: http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/organization/organization.htm

Seton and Beard are often cast as outdoorsmen heroes in a historic battle against the indoor agenda of James West. If you read between the lines of Scott's "The Scouting Party," however, you can see Seton and Beard as perhaps united only in their bitter jealousy of the historical success of Patrol-based Scouting. Scott's excerpt from the censored chapter of "Hardly a Man is Now Alive," in which Beard lies outright to claim his invention of the term "Boy Scout" years before Baden-Powell, is by itself worth the price of Scott's book: "Beard's account gave to understand that Scouting arose directly from his efforts...He liberally reconstructed his conversations with 'Recreation' publisher William Annis about starting a boys organization. 'Annis, I think I have a great idea,' Beard recalled telling him. 'We will form a Society of Boy Scouts and identify it with the greatest of Scouts by calling the boys ''The Sons of Daniel Boone'.' Annis was immediately enthusiastic. He cried, 'Mr. Beard, we'll sweep the country with it.' He little knew that we were going to sweep the world" (page 221). Like all pro-BSA historians, Scott casts the villain of his story as "The American Boy Scouts" (America's sole objector to the YMCA's goal of an absolute monopoly on Scouting in the United States), but fails to acknowledge that the YMCA's classroom-based replacement of B-P's outdoor badge system, and the YMCA's horrifically anti-Patrol System program was as wide of the mark as the American Boy Scouts' militarism. It was Seton and Beard's spotlight on stand-alone Scoutcraft skills (which were then, and now once again tested indoors by adult "Boards of Review" rather than in a Patrol on patrol), that delayed America's widespread adoption of the Patrol Method until the late 1920s. Word on the street is that because of Tim Jeal, the BSA allows only proven pro-BSA historians to examine its archives. The Scouting Heritage story I would like to hear is how James West (himself a YMCA man) transcended Seton and Beard's anti-Baden-Powell agenda, stood up to YMCA leadership theory, then single-handedly introduced the Patrol Method and hired William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt to implement it. If only we had such a Chief Scout Executive today. The other bookend to this forever-to-be-untold story is how Wood Badge's demolition of Scoutcraft and the Patrol Method began in 1965, months before Hillcourt was even out the door into retirement. Did Hillcourt recognize and object to the fatal Position of Responsibility requirements, as we know he did to Wood Badge's replacement of Scoutcraft with "leadership skills"? Given that the unveiling by John Larson (the father of Modern Wood Badge) of Leadership Development's use of ad hominem attacks (as the ultimate defense of "leadership skills") was directed against William Hillcourt himself, what was the tenor of the internal memos in which Larson detailed the systematic destruction of Hillcourt's life work, and the BSA's subsequent fall from unprecedented popularity with boys, to the marginal cult of adult helicopter skills that is Scouting's Heritage today? Mere sniping matches, Kahuna? Strong campfire horror story to follow.

If that was true, then why do the "leadership skills" types go nuclear when we suggest that the Boy Scouts of America (in exchange for our lucrative monopoly on Scouting) be "trustworthy" enough to "obey" the statute that we include all those requirements from June 15, 1916? For the same reason that we pay the morbidly obese a million dollars a year to mock that law, to promote Wood Badge, and to explain why it is wrong for the Boy Scouts of America to expect a twelve (12) year-old Boy Scout to sleep in a tent away from his mommy and daddy: Not a ten (10) or eleven (11) year-old Boy Scout, mind you, but a twelve (12) year-old Boy Scout! http://inquiry.net/leadership/sittin...ith_adults.htm

MattR, Your Scouts might like some of Seton's Woodcraft Indian vigils: The Initiation Trials, especially "8. Lone Camp. Go forth alone into the woods at sunset, out of sight and sound of camp, or human habitation. Take blankets, axe and matches, etc., and make yourself comfortable overnight, not returning till sunrise." http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/organization/initiations.htm And the Naming Ceremony: "To the singing of the GHOST DANCE SONG (Song No. 42), the Medicine Man leads the way toward the Vigil Rock, where a fire has been laid beforehand." http://inquiry.net/outdoor/native/ceremony/naming.htm

In another thread: In 1898 Robert Baden-Powell was more deeply influenced by his father's best-seller "The Order of Nature" following a spiritual awakening in Kashmir where B-P came to view camping and walking in wild places as an experience which transcended practical considerations: http://www.scouter.com/forum/girl-scouting/387069-boy-scouts-girl-scouts-campfire-the-whole?p=387414#post387414

blw2 commented " .... and that doesn't explain Baden-Powell." Robert Powell was 12 years old when his mother hyphenated the family's last name to include his father's first name, "Baden." As a consequence, Robert's older brother, Baden, became "Baden Baden-Powell"! According to Tim Jeal, she did it for the value that her husband's name recognition had in high-society, even a decade after his death. Baden Powell's book "Essays and Reviews" had become "one of the most famous books of the nineteenth century." In 1898 Robert was more deeply influenced by his father's best-seller "The Order of Nature" following a spiritual awakening in Kashmir where B-P came to view camping and walking in wild places as an experience which transcended practical considerations: "Going over these immense hills - especially when alone - and looking almost sheer down into the deep valleys between - one feels like a parasite on the shoulders of the world. There is such a bigness about it all, that opens and freshens up the mind. It's as good as a cold tub for the soul." See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm This exposure to The Order of Nature "especially when alone" became the spiritual backbone of Scouting in the form of individual backwoods "Journeys," which are the final test for each rank (replaced in the United States with indoor, adult-led Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review). Likewise, the Tenderfoot through First Class ranks themselves are earned from a competent Patrol Leader on unsupervised Patrol expeditions, replaced in the US with "controlled failure" (adult association and Wood Badge "leadership skills").