Kudu

Eamonn, did you find the regulation that specifically prohibits a BSA Scout from wearing BSA patches on whatever he wears? I think there is one, but I skimmed our Troop's 1980s vintage Insignia Guide last night and couldn't find it. (Me!!) might not like the idea of it being called a Scout Uniform The last time I checked, the BSA's technical definition of "Activity Uniform" specified the one they used to sell, so if not "Activity Uniform," then "Troop Uniform" works for me. Of course if the BSA allows official patches to be sewn on patch vests or patch blankets, then we might consider calling it a "patch vest" or "patch blanket" to conform to the rules. I'm flexible. Do you think the BSA would consider renaming their Oscar de la Renta "Official Uniform" the "Hothouse Uniform"? If so, we could call a Troop Uniform the "Outdoor Uniform" :-/ Kudu

Leave the uniform as adopted by the Boy Scouts of America alone!!! Um, that is the whole point, hops_scout, to leave the BSA's dress-designer's uniform completely alone :-/ Kudu

Venividi writes: There is a Catholic military academy for high school boys about 2 miles from my house. The distinction that I would make is that this Catholic military academy does not have a government-established monopoly on "school." If they were to adopt BSA Uniform pants as a part of their school uniform, I bet a significant number of students would beg their parents to enroll them elsewhere. So the school would either respond to market forces and offer a uniform in which their students can take pride, or position their school as valuing obedience over self-discipline :-) The only reason that the BSA Uniform remains so ugly is that Congress granted special rights to a religious organization, insolating them from the corrective forces of a free market economy. So we are stuck with a Uniform reminiscent of the old Wendy's "Soviet Fashion Show" commercials from the same era :-/ Kudu

FScouter writes: There is no support at all in any BSA publication for making up your own uniform. Well, duh! The whole point is that the BSA never thought of forbidding it! But don't try to tell the rest of us that what you wear or what your personal web site says, has anything at all to do with the Boy Scout uniform! I'm talking about the Uniform Method, not the BSA product. People who see the BSA uniform as a symbol of mean-spirited neo-conservative values usually don't understand the distinction :-/ Kudu

scoutldr writes: certain BSA symbols and logos are registered trademarks and/or copyrighted. I feel certain that you would not be able to use those in making up your own patches. The idea is to use already available patches as much as possible. A Troop Uniform would probably have the same status as a patch blanket. My books are packed right now, so someone else will have to look at the rules and report back. For instance, is there a rule that forbids putting BSA rank patches on the back of a Merit Badge sash or a patch blanket? If so, does this rule govern the use of the metal rank pins? If not, the easiest solution might be to use BSA rank pins rather than BSA rank patches. The point is to have fun, follow the rules, and think outside the fundamentalist box. Kudu

Case in point :-)

No one is required to own one to be a BSA member but if the uniform is worn, there are rules that define the proper way to wear one. Why haven't you mentioned this before, Ed? :-/ I'm sure that most readers envision this as a choice between a sharply dressed uniformed unit on the one hand, and Scouts in blue jeans and flannel shirts on the other. If you love the Uniform Method but hate the finger-in-the-eye ugliness of the BSA Uniform, Ed's loophole is big enough to drive a Troop through! As far as I know, there are no BSA rules against rejecting the BSA Uniform and adopting your own Troop Uniform. Dickies and other uniform manufacturers offer tan shirts similar to the BSA shirt (better quality but cheaper), and less expensive (but higher quality) olive-drab BDU cargo pants are consistently available from manufacturers down to about size 6. If you believe that Scout uniforms should be designed to be worn outdoors, you might want to consider olive-drab nylon "zip-off" pants instead, but availability is not as consistent as the BDUs, see: http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm The whole reason for doing this, of course, would be to make a point about following the rules, so you would have read up on the BSA regulations that govern patches. It has been many years since I read that stuff, but I seem to remember some distinction between official rank and position patches, and other kinds of patches (like Patrol & Council patches, Troop numerals, rank pins, etc.). At any rate, generic Scouting patches can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/generic.htm Kudu

My point exactly. Defenders of the Uniform see it as a symbol of the BSA's neo-conservative "values" (with "obedience" being high on the list), pragmatists see the ideal Uniform as reflecting Scouting's promise of outdoor adventure (where form follows function). Kudu

Certainly, as far as I am concerned you are dead wrong. Obviously Hawaii is the exception that proves the rule :-/ Kudu

I think the thread is well named. I suspect that there is a high correlation between people's opinions about the Official BSA Uniform (such as it is) and their religious beliefs. This explains why it is always such a perennial and hotly debated topic in this and other Scouting forums. I bet that if you tracked what people post about the Uniform and what the same people post on topics like "Duty to God" and other "3-G" issues, you would find that that those who support a zero-tolerance BSA Scout Pants policy also support BSA policies which are based on fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible. Such people tend to think of the Uniform as primarily reflecting a Scout's "values." They value obedience, and if the Uniform is so poorly designed that Scouts hate to wear it, then so much the better :-/ My guess is that those who think of the ideal Uniform as practical outdoors clothing that reinforces the other Methods of Scouting (Patrol Patch, Advancement Badge, Leadership Position Patch, etc), tend to think of values as cultural, rather than absolute. Rather than "A Scout is obedient," their favorite Scout Law would be Baden-Powell's "unwritten 11th law:" A Scout is not a fool! Conservatives see the Uniform as reflecting neo-conservative values, pragmatists see the ideal Uniform as reflecting Scouting's promise of outdoor adventure. Just a guess. Kudu

John, Good luck with your research! I believe that you will find that Hillcourt is the author :-) Most people forget that the correct quote makes a distinction between the Scouts' game and the Scouters' game: "A realization that to the boys Scouting is a gameto you, a game with a purpose: Character building and Citizenship training."

If you're aware of another source of info, post the link. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's classic "Ten Essentials of Scoutmastership." (This is where the "Game with a Purpose" quote comes from): http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/hillcourt/scoutmastership.htm Kudu

Some resources for designing your own Troop winter camping training course can be found at "Okpik Online!" See: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter A list of useful "Hints" or "talking points" can be found in each of the following session categories by clicking that tab at the top of the above page: [Winter Camp] [Activities & Recreation] [Food & Water] [Gear & Clothing] [Health & Safety] [sleep & Shelter] [snow & Ice] [Travel & Navigation] Kudu

I'd like to know what kind of Courts of Honor ceremonies y'all have had. We keep the advancement "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" work sheets, so that the Scout doesn't have to read from a card or memorize anything as he explains a point of Scout Law while lighting that candle. In this candlelight ceremony the SM Minute (actually only 30 seconds) is done at the beginning, in the darkness, just before the SPL lights the first candle. See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/ceremonies/candlelight.htm Kudu

For those who are looking for plans for various kinds of sleds, a good collection (from classic wooden sleds by Ben Hunt and Dan Beard, to converted plastic equipment sleds) can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/winter/gear/sleds Lots of other plans, including snow shoes and "skaters' wings" can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/gear Igloos can take a number of hours to construct, and snow cave construction can be frustrating if the terrain and snow "density" are less than ideal. The snow "density" problem can be solved with modern igloo makers which compress the snow. The best one I think is the "Ice Box." This is far better than the old Polar Domes (which were once featured at the week-long BSA National Okpik training certification course at Ely Minnesota). The Ice Box takes a lot less snow than most methods, and because you you don't have to hollow out the interior, you won't so wet. A series of photographs of us building one can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/shelter/igloo_kit.htm A long list of possible Troop snow activities can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities Kudu

The Scouting program has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each. The "Three Aims" and "Eight Methods" of Scouting are unique to the BSA, and have changed dramitically over time. In 1920 the BSA had two different sets of "Aims:" one for adults (Character, Citizenship) and one for Scouts (Pleasure, Interest). The model was parallel "train tracks," with one rail being the adult Aims and the other rail being the "Boy Aims" with the caption "ADULT AIMS CAN BE REALIZED ONLY THRU BOY INTERESTS." "Adult Aims and Boy Aims in Scouting. "A Scoutmaster should frankly recognize that the adult aims of citizenship and character are vitally different from the boy aims of pleasure and interest. "Only can the adult hope to effect his aims as he does so through the boy's interests. The "train" of the adult program must "run" on the "tracks" of the boy's interests pulled by the boy's enthusiasm. Character and citizenship then may be expected as by-products of what the boy does and thinks under leadership and association. To get an ideal or an idea "into" a boy, one must have his attention. The boy must think it and do it, not merely hear it. "The program of Scouting is essentially sound in this regard, as it develops the boy through companionship and leadership in activities which interest and appeal to him. "Any Scoutmaster departing from this Scout principle of the boy's interests as a starting point, may properly expect difficulty." At this time the Nine Methods were not "of equal importance" but were "Arranged in Order of their Appeal to Boys"): 1) Play; 2) Competition; 3) Dramatization; 4) Experiment; 5) Observation; 6) Demonstration; 7) Recitation; 8) Lecture; 9) Book Study See: http://www.kudu.net/adult/methods/2nd/ The idea that the Methods are of equal importance was introduced in 1972 when the "Uniform Method" was removed :-) For an overview of the history of different models of Methods of Scouting used in the United States (Including Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts and Ernest Seton's Woodcraft Indians) see: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods Kudu

Well, Dan, perhaps for you complete anarchy would still be too restrictive? It is simply a violation of "The Guide to Safe Eating" to cook burgers over a wood fire or a lightweight stove. Remember Dan, a hamburger is "obedient" and "loyal"! What a burger actually tastes like is not important because: "A hamburger is a meal with a purpose!" Kudu

Dan writes: I am not sure what fast food restaurants has to do with Monopoly? I would be happy to explain that for you, Dan. The analogy to Scouting would be that everyone sort of knows what a "burger" or "hamburger" is, but most of us can agree that mushrooms on a burger is just plain wrong. So McDonald's convinces Congress to grant them a Congressional Charter to protect the good name of "burgers" from associations like Chili's. McDonald's patiently tries to get all of the other hamburger chains to merge with them. Chili's refuses to go along, so McDonald's sues them out of existence. By McDonald's definition, hamburgers are fried and of course they do not have mushrooms on them. The "Guide to Safe Eating" dictates fried food because corporate lawyers fear that McDonald's might get sued if someone gets cancer from eating burgers cooked over an open flame. Oh, and in the 1970s the modern new hamburger program mandated that burgers and buns be held in trays on steam tables. I know that some people complain about the soggy bread, but you can't stand in the way of progress. And let's not forget that a burger is obedient! Pickles are prohibited too, but nobody remembers why. In discussion groups, neo-conservatives try to preserve these cherished traditional values. They point out that it doesn't matter that burger eaters in other countries enjoy the freedom that comes from competition in the marketplace. This is America, and McDonald's is a private religious organization with a government-established monopoly on burgers. Oh, and forget those old cookbooks that you see on Ebay. "Modern" burgers are always fried, held on steam tables and do not include toppings. Period. Every other way of cooking burgers is "old-fashioned," against the rules, and, according to the highly-paid corporate experts in Texas, simply unworkable in a modern society. As Ronald McDonald said, "Burgers have a purpose." So if boys want to eat burgers they have to respect our traditional values and dress like clowns. If they are embarrassed to be seen in the Ronald McDonald's 1970s-era Official Clown Uniform, then obviously it is because they have no respect for traditional values! Recently McDonald's became a faith-based religious organization. Out of respect to the deeply-held values of their two biggest sponsoring organizations, it uses its status as a private organization to preserve the traditional interpretation of "In God We Trust" to mean that you can't buy cola or other caffeinated drinks and, of course, no meat on Fridays. You all agreed to that when you signed the "Declaration of Religious Hamburgers," although for some reason it is not included in the excerpt that appears on your application form. Hey, if you don't like it, you are free to eat elsewhere--just don't call it burgers! Oh, no girls either. Girls have a veggie-burger program. In 1924 McDonald's tried to force them to call it a "veggie-pattie" so that boys would not get teased about burgers being girl food, but the lawsuit disappeared under mysterious circumstances. If girls really prefer meat they can join McDonald's co-ed Hot Dog program when they turn 14. Its not really hamburgers, but it is a great program. And you don't have to dress like a clown. Kudu

These "follow the rules of Scouting" discussions will remain "pointless" only for so long as liberals, libertarians, and moderate Republicans (including those who plan to remain in the BSA) fail to recognize that Scouting is literally (not figuratively) a monopoly game. It is only the lack of competition that allows the BSA to play to their religious-fundamentalist political base on "values" issues; and to produce unpopular, inferior products like the BSA uniform. This will not change until we work together to actively to support legislation and trademark litigation to allow freedom in the American Scouting marketplace. Eamonn has used the game of "Monopoly" as a metaphor for the game of Scouting. But the problem is not as neo-conservatives like to frame it: Should volunteers "tweak" the rules, regulations, and program elements of the BSA? The problem with Scouting in the United States is that the BSA monopoly on Scouting for boys allows it to move Scouting away from the programs and good-natured mainstream Scouting philosophies of William Hillcourt and Baden-Powell, toward an authoritarian model which is the very opposite of the game that teaches citizenship through indirect methods. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. From the very beginning, it has been the BSA that has "tweaked" the Scouting program! For the first couple of decades the BSA did not even use Baden-Powell's Patrol System! The first Handbook for Scout Masters instructed Scoutmasters to lead the Troop themselves, to divide the Troop into "Patrols" by arbitrary differences in height & weight or social class, and to systematically disenfranchise the Patrol Leaders so that they would not get "swelled heads." For example, "if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan" see: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/ It took somebody from Denmark to straighten out the BSA for a while with one of the greatest inventions in the history of Scouting: William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Original Six Methods of Scouting: The Scout Way: Scouting is a game (1. A Game, NOT a Science); Patrol Method: played by boys in boy gangs (2. Scout Patrol) under boy leaders chosen by the gang. (3. Boy Leadership); Men in Scouting: guided by a man (4. Scoutmaster) backed by other men of the community. (5. Committee & Council); Activities: Scouting provides the boy with an active outdoor life, (6. Adventure in the Out-of-Doors) grants him recognition for mastering various skills, (7. Advancement); Uniform: and gives him a chance to wear an attractive Uniform. (8. Scout Uniform); Ideals & Service: It holds before him the ideals of a true Scout, (9. Scout Law) and encourages him to "help other people at all times." (10. Oath, Service, Good Turns). See: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/5th.htm But after the great Dane retired, it appears that politically-correct progressive forces (perhaps Miki101 can clarify this) eliminated two of these Methods (The "Scout Way" Method and The Uniform Method), transformed The Outdoor Method into some kind of socially "relevant" study of rats and other urban wildlife, and invented a two new "scientific" Methods called "Leadership Development" and "Personal Growth" (the later being lists of "behavioral objectives" by which a Scout's growth toward the Aims of Scouting could be measured). The 1972 Seven Methods of Scouting 1) Scouting Ideals; 2) Patrols; 3) Advancement; 4) Adult Male Association; 5) Outdoor Program; 6) Leadership Development; 7) Personal Growth. See: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/6th.htm Hillcourt came out of retirement to write the BSA's best Scout handbook ever but, except for the Outdoor Method, his program was never really restored. To this day we still suffer from a dress designer's indoor Scout Uniform, corporate leadership theory rather than Patrol Leader specific training, and countless other BSA-tweaked program elements & policies. The solution is not to change the BSA directly, but to work toward establishing freedom in the marketplace so that its policies will be shaped to attract Scout, Scouter, and individual Sponsoring Organization "consumers," rather the heads of a couple of very conservative religions who dictate "Scouting values" to the rest of us. The BSA's monopoly on Scouting is not absolute! It appears that in 1924, the BSA attempted to force the Girl Scouts to use the term "Guide" rather than "Scout," claiming that use of the term "Scouting" was an infringement on their trademark (sound familiar?). See: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/bsa_vs_gsusa.htm Perhaps there is an opening here somewhere for religions that see the wisdom of working together to establish secular alternatives to the BSA (a self-defined "religious" or "faith-based" organization). As far as I know, the only organization that is actively fighting in the courts for freedom of choice for Americans in Scouting is "Youth Scouts". If you are a liberal, libertarian, or moderate Republican who really wants to change the BSA--rather than just talking about it--consider supporting the Youth Scouts rather than short-sighted reformist groups like Scouting For All. See: http://youthscouts.org/news.html Kudu

Do you still have your original "Monopoly" post on your hard drive? I thought it was a nice metaphor for American Scouting. I tried to find your post on my Google Desktop, but it wasn't archived :-( If you do have it, you could post it under "Monopoly" as a "new topic" rather than the spun thread. I do have a rough draft of my reply, maybe others do as well. Kudu

Did the "Monopoly" thread entirely disappear? http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=117264

A collection of 124 games for disabled Scouts can be found at The Inquiry Net, see: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/disabled They are indexed into the following categories: Games for Deaf Boy Scouts, Cubs, Children Games for the Blind Games for those Confined to Bed Games for the Ambulatory (Able to Walk) Games for the Developmentally Disabled Kudu

Leadership is key in a troop. The BSA knows that and changed the focus of Wood Badge for that reason. Yes, the 1970s "11 Leadership Skills" Wood Badge was about leadership, 21st Century "Seven Minute Manager" Wood Badge is about leadership, JLT is about leadership, and I'm sure that the new JLT is about, um, leadership. I think we can all agree that the BSA has the "Leadership Development Method" covered. But what can we do to teach the "Patrol Method"? I haven't used the "Grumps method". Our adults usually look over the menus of the different Patrols, and plan to eat with the Patrol offering the best food :-) I'm sure that the Grumps Patrol can be done without the adults acting like boys, and if there are enough adults to form a "full" Patrol, at least this keeps them out of the way :-) The interesting thing about orennoah's "Grumps" method is that it models the behavior he wants the Scouts' Patrols to exhibit. Copying someone else's actions is always the most efficient way to train. This is the key to Hillcourt's Green Bar Patrol as well: as Patrol Leader the Scoutmaster models the behavior that the Scout Patrol Leaders will need when they 1) hold Patrol Meetings, 2) conduct Advancement within the Patrol, 3) plan and implement Patrol Hikes, 4) lead a Patrol Campout, 5) lead new Scoutcraft games and "fun" games, and 6) conduct all of the miscellaneous house-keeping activities necessary in more traditional Patrols. Rather than coaching from the sidelines, the Scoutmaster actually leads the Green Bar Patrol in these activities. > Our Troop votes in their Patrol Leaders every six months, so > Kudu's Green Bar Patrol is not viable. As soon as one Patrol > Leader is trained, another might replace him! Even if a Troop sacrifices the Patrol Method to the Leadership Development Method by imposing "term limits" of only one six month Patrol Leader "leadership opportunity," the Green Bar Patrol will provide specific instruction for five of the seven requirements for earning the National Honor Patrol (a pretty good indication that you are using the Patrol Method) within this six month structure: HAVE A PATROL NAME, FLAG, AND YELL. Put your patrol design on equipment and use your patrol yell. Keep patrol records up to date: Covered in the first meeting. HOLD TWO PATROL MEETINGS EVERY MONTH: Covered in the second month's meeting, with additional instruction in the fifth meeting. TAKE PART IN AT LEAST ONE HIKE, OUTDOOR ACTIVITY, OR OTHER SCOUTING EVENT: Covered in the third month's meeting. HELP TWO PATROL MEMBERS ADVANCE ONE RANK: Covered in the fourth month's meeting. HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE ATTEND AT LEAST THREE PATROL LEADERS' COUNCIL MEETINGS: Covered by the third month. See: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar Troop Leader Training is a good opportunity for the boys to formally learn what the job of Patrol Leader is. What do you actually teach (in addition to leadership skills)? When the SPL makes a decision, I would like each PL to follow though with it down to the scout level...If the SPL's decisions are not passed down to the boys, he is not really leading the troop. I agree, but I would quibble over the idea of "SPL decisions." In William Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the SPL was elected by the Patrol Leaders. I keep the spirit of this practice alive by announcing at the first PLC meeting after every election that the PLC is called the "Patrol Leaders' Council" for a reason. It is the Patrol Leaders' Council, not the SPL's Council or the Scoutmaster's Council. The SPL has a vote really only to break ties because the Patrol Leaders always outnumber him. The Troop Guide has a vote only to make sure that Tenderfoot through First Class Advancement issues are addressed. The Scoutmaster does not have a vote, and only vetoes unwise decisions. So really, the SPL only implements the Patrol Leaders' decisions. Program success, retention and developing good leaders are much more important than having a troop full of good cooks and map readers. Why not enroll them in business administration courses, and skip the mosquitoes? :-) Kudu

Are you saying that if a troop separates patrols during outings that is all there is to the patrol method? If a Scoutmaster only does one thing to promote the Patrol Method, that would be the most important. If the Patrols are separated, then at least some form of the Patrol Method is occurring. And what I wrote has nothing to do with the patrol method? For the sake of discussion, I will take that extreme position :-/ Remember that you wrote, "Separating patrols by area is a good idea, but I do not think it has much to do with the patrol method. I look at the patrol method more as teaching the patrol leader to lead." In general, the Leadership Development Method was established at the expense of the Patrol Method. So it only adds insult to injury to describe the Patrol Method using leadership terminology. Patrols should be described by what Patrols do. All too often the Patrol Method is viewed as a "leadership opportunity." I would even go so far as to suggest that frequent Patrol elections are driven more by the need to fill Position of Responsibility (POR) advancement requirements than by the need for stable Patrols. When William Hillcourt invented the "Methods of Scouting," boy leadership was a subset of the Patrol Method: a skill you needed to run a Patrol. When "progressive" forces dismantled Hillcourt's traditional Scouting program in the early 1970s, they did away with two of the Methods of Scouting, The Uniform and The Scout Way, and greatly de-emphasized the Outdoor Method. At this time they established "Leadership Development" as a separate Method. This meant eliminating Patrol Leader Training (PLT) and replacing it with abstract leadership skills (JLT) that every Scout could use. The following statement is typical: "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill." I'd say that is exactly wrong :-/ Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

I just read the list that Kudu posted, and I think we're all better off for that guy's leaving the program. By all accounts he was a dedicated, tireless, and dependable leader from the time his sons joined Cub Scouts until years after his older son earned Eagle and aged out of the program. He continued to serve as SA/acting Scoutmaster for a couple of years after that, and then served on the Troop Committee. After he quit the Scout Section and wrote the "My Reasons for Leaving Scouting" letter, our Crew Advisor asked him to volunteer, where he and his wife continue to serve to this day. As far as I can tell, his only fault is that he does not like Dutch oven cooking :-/ Kudu